Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[Grandmaster Woro]

This has already been addressed, please see the above conversation for clarification. It doesn't change.

That somehow the other fighters are adequate enough for a yonkou crew?
Even with zoro included, the crew still lacks manpower. Actually, since you emphasized the "vital" role of other crews, then that even makes the presence of a fighter like zoro more important to ensure the "vital" crews are not injured or killed during fights
Dont even forget about the sacrifice of zoro at TB that you somehow seem to not address anymore

 

[Pirate Queen]

That somehow the other fighters are adequate enough for a yonkou crew?
Even with zoro included, the crew still lacks manpower. Actually, since you emphasized the "vital" role of other crews, then that even makes the presence of a fighter like zoro more important to ensure the "vital" crews are not injured or killed during fights

No that without Jinbei there are 9 members. If Jinbei had replaced Zoro... still 9 members. There are in no worse off position than they were before. Yes more elite fighters would be ideal... but they are doing just fine. Thats not the point im making. That is not the discussion at hand


Agai, useful vs Essential.

Zoro is useful as a combatant but nonessential. For like the 100th time

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

No that without Jinbei there are 9 members. If Jinbei had replaced Zoro... still 9 members. There are in no worse off position than they were before. Yes more elite fighters would be ideal... but they are doing just fine. Thats not the point im making. That is not the discussion at hand


Agai, useful vs Essential.

Zoro is useful as a combatant but nonessential. For like the 100th time

Grandline is filled with strong pirates and we know pirates in this series fight shounen style, but somehow fighters are nonessential?
Timeskip is meant to power up the SHP coz the SHP dont have adequate power yet, that means strong power is essential to survive since pirates attack other pirates, you know
SHP needs more heavy hitters

 

[Pirate Queen]

Grandline is filled with strong pirates and we know pirates in this series fight shounen style, but somehow fighters are nonessential?
Timeskip is meant to power up the SHP coz the SHP dont have adequate power yet, that means strong power is essential to survive since pirates attack other pirates, you know SHP needs more heavy hitters

You dont get it at all. This is going way over your head.

What u are saying is true, but Zoro role can be filled by someone who is just as talented as him and serves multiple roles one of which is needed on NW.

Of course having 10 Zoro class fighters is better than 0 Zoro class fighters but make it 1000 Zoros and non of the have navigational skills they could never help luffy become PK or if non of them could fix a ship. Having strong fighters is useful but not essential or Luffy would have never gotten this far.

Roger had a ship full of strong fighters and still needed ESSENTIAL crewmembers (Oden andCrocus) or he would have never become PK.... you not getting it. And at this point i dont know if you can. It can't be explained any more simple for you.

 

[nik87]

Listen, i think im not making myself clear enough.... replace Zoro with Jinbei from the beginning. The qualities Zoro possess: strength, peudoleadership, the ability to offer Luffy advice... all those qualities Jinbei poessess. And on top of that Jinbei is an amazing helmsman.

I've throwing around the word essential since this discussion started so im going back

Nami is ESSENTIAL because she is a navigator. Luffy cannot become PK without a navigator

Robin is ESSENTIAL because she can decypher Poneglypphs. Luffy cannot become PK without her.

Chopper is ESSENTIAL because of his medical expertise. Luffy cannot become PK without him.

Franky is ESSENTIAL because he fixes the ship. LUffy cannot become PK without a shipwright.

Sanji is ESSENTIAL because he is a world class chef who knows the dangers of eating mysterious food and can now prepare energy food. Luffy cannot become PK without a chef.

Ussop is ESSENTIAL because of his ability to look at things from a distance, combat and noncombat (and was a temporary shipwright before Franky). Luffy cannit become PK without a Sniper.

Brook is NON-ESSENTIAL because he isn't the best combatant (can be useful) and is a musician. Luffy considers a musician mandatory for his crew, but Brook isnt NEEDED for Luffy to become PK.

Now...

Zoro is NON-ESSENTIAL because all he is on the crew is a combatant. He doesnt have a dual role. He is the first mate, but like you said Jinbei and Sanji have taken the role at different times. He offers advice to Luffy, but so do the others when times call for it. Zoro ISN'T NEEDED for Luffy to become PK. We have 2 others on the crew that can easily fill his role.

Now there was confusion and M3J thought i was saying Zoro is useless. That is NOT what im saying. Zoro is 100% useful, his feat on Thriller Bark speaks to that. He is courageous above everyone in the crew and is loyal to a fault. He is a great friend and ally and god have mercy on your soul if you harm his nakama and make them cry.... but he isn't needed on a crew for the captain to be PK.

Hell, Jinbei also sacrificed his life to protect Luffy from Akainu burning a hole through him

Jinbei is every bit as courageous as Zoro and just as willing to sacrifice his life to his captain, he has a triple role as helmsman, combatant, and advice giver to Luffy.

Zoro can be both useful AND non-essential. The 2 arent mutually exclusive.

Didnt Barto club show that no crew member is essential?

Also, Luffy aint essential either, replace him from the start with Zoro and you lose nothing.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

What u are saying is true, but Zoro role can be filled by someone who is just as talented as him and serves multiple roles one of which is needed on NW.

Of course having 10 Zoro class fighters is better than 0 Zoro class fighters but make it 1000 Zoros and non of the have navigational skills they could never help luffy become PK or if non of them could fix a ship. Having strong fighters is useful but not essential or Luffy would have never gotten this far.

Roger had a ship full of strong fighters and still needed ESSENTIAL crewmembers (Oden andCrocus) or he would have never become PK.... you not getting it. And at this point i dont know if you can. It can't be explained any more simple for you.

How is strong fighter not essential when the whole point of timeskip is to become stronger?
Your example for roger's case is a false logic. Just because oden recruits oden and crocus doesnt mean they are the only essential members. You cant just exclude fighters, especially in OP world where being strong is necessary

You dont get it at all. This is going way over your head.

I can say the same thing to you, too

 

[M3J]

Jinbei also convinced Luffy to join Bege and assassinate a Yonko despite everything we know about Luffy's stance on that type of combat. Was that not advising Luffy with a hard decision?

Rayleigh advising Luffy to stay away from his beloved crew for 2 whole years isnt a hard decision for Luffy?

How is that a hard decision? Jinbei used logic to get Luffy, Caesar, and Bege to work with each other by saying Big Mom was their common enemy, and that it was the best way to get Sanji back. Luffy had nothing to lose, whereas he could have lost Usopp forever.

You can't possibly say this wasnt a "Hard decision" for Luffy to make. It was a hell of a sacrifice and Luffy had no way of knowing his nakama would live

Luffy usually has faith in his nakama to take care of themselves, like he did when the Curly Eyebrow Crew encountered Big Mom's ship before going to Zou. He'd show the same faith in Jinbei as well

Rayleigh telling Luffy to stay away from his crew wasn't hard either because Luffy was reminded of how useless they were against one Pacifista. Once he realized he needed to get stronger, it was an easy decision for him. And the choices Luffy had was to either fight Blackbeard and lose precious seconds that could have been used to save Ace, or get his revenge another time and focus on saving Ace. That doesn't seem like a hard decision as he was in Impel Down in the first place to save Ace.

What Zoro was telling Luffy was to be a good captain, not a soft captain that lets his crew mates accuse him of stuff, leave, and then come back like nothing happened. Had Luffy accepted Usopp, Zoro wouldn't have seen Luffy as a good captain, and there's a chance others wouldn't have either, and/or the trust wouldn't be 100% there due to Usopp possibly leaving again if things got tough.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Didnt Barto club show that no crew member is essential?

Also, Luffy aint essential either, replace him from the start with Zoro and you lose nothing.

Except the desire to be PK.... Individually they are replacable. This has already been addressed. Nami is replacable, but you'd still need someone with the ability to navigate....

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2020 ---

How is strong fighter not essential when the whole point of timeskip is to become stronger?
Your example for roger's case is a false logic. Just because oden recruits oden and crocus doesnt mean they are the only essential members. You cant just exclude fighters, especially in OP world where being strong is necessary

I can say the same thing to you, too

I disnt say they were the ONLY ESSENTIAL crew they were examples. Just that he couldnt be PK without them. Futher proof this has gone over your head. Your bringing up things just to make a point and not actually understanding the discussion at hand.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2020 ---

How is that a hard decision? Jinbei used logic to get Luffy, Caesar, and Bege to work with each other by saying Big Mom was their common enemy, and that it was the best way to get Sanji back. Luffy had nothing to lose, whereas he could have lost Usopp forever.


Luffy usually has faith in his nakama to take care of themselves, like he did when the Curly Eyebrow Crew encountered Big Mom's ship before going to Zou. He'd show the same faith in Jinbei as well

Rayleigh telling Luffy to stay away from his crew wasn't hard either because Luffy was reminded of how useless they were against one Pacifista. Once he realized he needed to get stronger, it was an easy decision for him. And the choices Luffy had was to either fight Blackbeard and lose precious seconds that could have been used to save Ace, or get his revenge another time and focus on saving Ace. That doesn't seem like a hard decision as he was in Impel Down in the first place to save Ace.

What Zoro was telling Luffy was to be a good captain, not a soft captain that lets his crew mates accuse him of stuff, leave, and then come back like nothing happened. Had Luffy accepted Usopp, Zoro wouldn't have seen Luffy as a good captain, and there's a chance others wouldn't have either, and/or the trust wouldn't be 100% there due to Usopp possibly leaving again if things got tough.

All your saying that in your opinion they harent hard decisions and im saying they are.so we will just have to agree to disagress here. Leaving your nakama to face the wraith of a Yonko is 100% a hard decision to make no matter the person.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

I disnt say they were the ONLY ESSENTIAL crew they were examples. Just that he couldnt be PK without them.

So fighters are also essential then? You said oden and crocus werent the only ones, right? I rest my case.

Futher proof this has gone over your head. Your bringing up things just to make a point and not actually understanding the discussion at hand.

You cant explain well but somehow thats my fault to reply ur post? You do realize this is a forum and anything you post can be replied by other users?
Also weird to see you ranting about me "devaluing a conversation" in other thread but you just went for ad hominem in your reply several times here...ironic...

 

[Pirate Queen]

So fighters are also essential then? You said oden and crocus werent the only ones, right? I rest my case.


You cant explain well but somehow thats my fault to reply ur post? You do realize this is a forum and anything you post can be replied by other users?
Also weird to see you ranting about me "devaluing a conversation" in other thread but you just went for ad hominem in your reply several times here...ironic...

Im explaining it just fine now. 3 pages of this discussion and your asking the same damn thing. if have more fighters were ESSENTIAL than the Strawhats wouldn't have got this far. The number they are at is fine, obviously because they are all still alive. Jinbei replacing Zoro doesnt change the structure of the crew at all at this point in the manga.

Take Zoro away and replacing him with a fighter of equal caliber doesn't change the structure of the crew... what does change is that Jinbei is also a world class helmsman, making him more ESSENTIAL crew member for a sea such as the NEW WORLD.

I'm gunna go ahead and guess your next comment is gunna be, SEE FIGHTERS ARE ESSENTIAL.

 

[XXGenesis]

All Memebers of the crew are valuable and are needed. Stop, measuring Zoro against everything, ya are measuring him against things that are just ridiculous and silly.

Zoro's role is the VC. Just like Luffy, he isn't the sharpest tool brain, they are both muscle heads and care free people. Luffy respects Zoro's irritation or annoyance with him because he knows Zoro is fixing his shortcomings, keeping his captain sharp and reminding him if I'm going to be WSS, you need to be a really good Pirate King. So being Luffy's 1st crew mate, and 1st tag partner when it comes to trouble. He respects Zoro's viewpoints.

Nami as a navigator, and basically the big sis of the ship. Luffy is forced to listen to Nami. When she makes a decision, knowing that Luffy isn't focused st thr moment, or is letting silly things distract him..Robin with her experience and knowledge can also advise Luffy and he would listen, after giving warnings or info etc....they all interact and play a role in the crew. Zoro's decision making or VC duties, doesnt consist of much. He protects the crew from superior forces...that's really Zoro's role. So Yea call him lazy or almost useless as a VC..that's his role. The fighting VC.

 

[Pirate Queen]

All Memebers of the crew are valuable and are needed. Stop, measuring Zoro against everything, ya are measuring him against things that are just ridiculous and silly.

Zoro's role is the VC. Just like Luffy, he isn't the sharpest tool brain, they are both muscle heads and care free people. Luffy respects Zoro's irritation or annoyance with him because he knows Zoro is fixing his shortcomings, keeping his captain sharp and reminding him if I'm going to be WSS, you need to be a really good Pirate King. So being Luffy's 1st crew mate, and 1st tag partner when it comes to trouble. He respects Zoro's viewpoints.

Nami as a navigator, and basically the big sis of the ship. Luffy is forced to listen to Nami. When she makes a decision, knowing that Luffy isn't focused st thr moment, or is letting silly things distract him..Robin with her experience and knowledge can also advise Luffy and he would listen, after giving warnings or info etc....they all interact and play a role in the crew. Zoro's decision making or VC duties, doesnt consist of much. He protects the crew from superior forces...that's really Zoro's role. So Yea call him lazy or almost useless as a VC..that's his role. The fighting VC.

You described a role Jinbei can easily fill, which is entirely my point.

We reader only consider them valuable because we feel connections to them. Zoro is apart of out lives. The idea that he personally isnt needed can be a shock to the system. Especially fans of his, but its true.

 

[XXGenesis]

You described a role Jinbei can easily fill, which is entirely my point.

We reader only consider them valuable because we feel connections to them. Zoro is apart of out lives. The idea that he personally isnt needed can be a shock to the system. Especially fans of his, but its true.

Zoro is not replaceable by Jimbei.
Plot is the very reason as to why.
Jimbei is going to play more of a senior level headed role.

While Zoro & Luffy will always use their fist

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro is not replaceable by Jimbei.
Plot is the very reason as to why.
Jimbei is going to play more of a senior level headed role.

While Zoro & Luffy will always use their fist

What? Jinbei is a shichibukai, they are chosen because of their strength! Not because they are good negotiators lol. First and foremost it is Jinbei's strength that is acknowledged.

Now your just trying to make up any excuse to why Zoro is needed for Luffy to become PK.

Zoro does 2 things
Elite combatant of the PK's Crew
Advises Luffy

Jinbei does 3 things
Elite combatant of the PK's crew
Advises Luffy
Helmsman

Replacing Zoro with Jinbei only further benieits the Strawhats.

It doesnt mean Zoro is useless
It doesnt mean Zoro isnt beloved
It don't mean Zoro is easy to replace personality wise
It doesn't mean Zoro role is belittled

It only means Zoro isn't needed for Luffy to be PK were as Luffy does need a shipwright, Navigator. Poneglyph reader.... etc

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2020 ---

He shares that with Brook whom i also consider nonessential.

 

[nik87]

Luffy is replaceable too. Other pirate crews have captains who are not Luffy and not necessarily want to become PK.
Replace Luffy with Zoro from the start and we would be reading a story focused on sword fights instead of PK journey.
Any captain is replaceable, you make it sound like Luffy fulfills some role nobody else can do...

 

[XXGenesis]

What? Jinbei is a shichibukai, they are chosen because of their strength! Not because they are good negotiators lol. First and foremost it is Jinbei's strength that is acknowledged.

Now your just trying to make up any excuse to why Zoro is needed for Luffy to become PK.

Zoro does 2 things
Elite combatant of the PK's Crew
Advises Luffy

Jinbei does 3 things
Elite combatant of the PK's crew
Advises Luffy
Helmsman

Replacing Zoro with Jinbei only further benieits the Strawhats.

It doesnt mean Zoro is useless
It doesnt mean Zoro isnt beloved
It don't mean Zoro is easy to replace personality wise
It doesn't mean Zoro role is belittled

It only means Zoro isn't needed for Luffy to be PK were as Luffy does need a shipwright, Navigator. Poneglyph reader.... etc

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2020 ---

He shares that with Brook whom i also consider nonessential.

Now I just make up any excuse to why Zoro is needed for Luffy to be PK?? What are you talking about...

I don't write the story of One Piece. And neither do you Oda does..you can interpret and fan fiction it all you want.

You sound like a Zoro detractor with random opinions that Zoro isn't needed in the story or as Luffy's Vc. Yet he is...so nitpicking on how another character who hasnt spent nearly as much time and was befriended because of his relationship with his big bro Ace..he is not a suitable replacement for a character that was the 1st to join the crew..

Your points dont hold much value or make much of an debate topic. What was rayleigh's duties as a VC?? Wasn't Oden somebody more useful and strong a better VC..

 

[Pirate Queen]

Luffy is replaceable too. Other pirate crews have captains who are not Luffy and not necessarily want to become PK.
Replace Luffy with Zoro from the start and we would be reading a story focused on sword fights instead of PK journey.
Any captain is replaceable, you make it sound like Luffy fulfills some role nobody else can do...

Your getting nik... just a little more pushing needed

A captain is ESSENTIAL to the crew. Just like a navigator or a shipwright. Doesnt matter who it is, someone has to fill the position no one would become PK.

Zoro's position can be replaced by Jinbei because Zoro doesn't have a role that can't be replaced by someone else.

Finally you understand what essential means! Good job

 

[nik87]

Your getting nik... just a little more pushing needed
A captain is ESSENTIAL to the crew. Just like a navigator or a shipwright. Doesnt matter who it is, someone has to fill the position no one would become PK.
Zoro's position can be replaced by Jinbei because Zoro doesn't have a role that can't be replaced by someone else.
Finally you understand what essential means! Good job

I disagree. Nami sailed on her own, no captain needed, no shipwright needed. She is a capable navigator that she doesnt need either or those.
Zoro's role is more needed than Luffy's. There is no other capable swordsman to take on swordsmen. Zoro is not just any muscle, he is THE muscle.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Now I just make up any excuse to why Zoro is needed for Luffy to be PK?? What are you talking about...

I don't write the story of One Piece. And neither do you Oda does..you can interpret and fan fiction it all you want.

You sound like a Zoro detractor with random opinions that Zoro isn't needed in the story or as Luffy's Vc. Yet he is...so nitpicking on how another character who hasnt spent nearly as much time and was befriended because of his relationship with his big bro Ace..he is not a suitable replacement for a character that was the 1st to join the crew..

Your points dont hold much value or make much of an debate topic. What was rayleigh's duties as a VC?? Wasn't Oden somebody more useful and strong a better VC..

I sound like a Zoro detractor?

I think Zoro can fight a YC1
I know Zoro is going to be Yonko level VERY SOON
I think Zoro is going to cut Kaido badly
I think Zoro is going to be the second strongest character by end of story.

What about me tells you im a Zoro detractor?

Your trying to make the arguement something it isnt.

If you wanna read a Zoro detractor look up Moe-kun

Zoro is mainly a combatant and Luffy has other just as qualified combatants

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2020 ---

I disagree. Nami sailed on her own, no captain needed, no shipwright needed. She is a capable navigator that she doesnt need either or those.
Zoro's role is more needed than Luffy's. There is no other capable swordsman to take on swordsmen. Zoro is not just any muscle, he is THE muscle.

But nami cant become PK. We are talking essentials to be a PK. To sail the GL to the ultimate goal. Nami couldn't have done that.

And thats wrong. Jinbei is just as capable as Zoro strength wise.


If Zoro want to be captain and mutiny Luffy and take over as the Captain of the Strawhats then yes, Luffy wouldnt be needed because Jinbei fills that elite combat role and would give solid advice to Zoro, whereas Luffy is stupid lol.

Its funny. Your disagreeing with me, but your bottom line keeps reaching mine.

 

[XXGenesis]

It takes personality of sorts also to become a PK but that's not what we are talking about..A great VC would be somebody well rounded. But where does the benchmark lie as VC. Its Rayleigh.

So plz answer Rayleigh's strong suits and shortcomings..to where you can measure up other VC?