Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[HereNThere]

Why are we assuming Zoro's connected to Wano?

A SBS heavily implied that Zoro's family is originally from Wano. Potentially a decendent of Ushimaru Shimotsuki.

 

[kkck]

You think that the strongest member of the alliance wont get to fight 3rd strongest enemy because it feels unearned, to you?
I am getting the feeling that he wont fight King too but for a different reason, because there are bigger fish to fry and no one stronger than Zoro to take them on.

Zoro has basically fought two people worth something in the new world... Pica and then killer. Granted he didn't struggle too much against either but in context, he has only faced people well weaker than doflamingo and now he'd be jumping to someone at least a whole tier ahead of doflamingo, if not more. At least luffy went from doflamingo to cracker to katakuri... A more reasonable, but still very rushed in how oda handled it, progression. It seems unlikely, but not impossible, that orochi will have samurai as strong or stronger than king.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2020 ---

I agree with what you mean in ways especially how writing shows. Honestly I think Oda is pushing Zoro vs Orochi fight since overall he wanted him more than any other threat he talks about especially after what he did to Yasu, Toko, and Hiyori and been fighting his people for awhile more. It make sense given situation and plus he one of the leaders of the enemy side, so Zoro taking him on in a fight would be direction especially to test his swordsmanship abilities too.

Zoro's big fight being against orochi would be a huge letdown. Orochi is not a powerful guy. He has a presumably powerful fruit but otherwise he has nothing going for him. maybe he is stronger than he appears but tbh I think any strawhat could deal with him without too much trouble. Now, zoro could be the one to deal with orochi but it won't be his big fight in the arc. If zoro deals with orochi it makes sense that he has to get past his samurai first.

 

[nik87]

Zoro has basically fought two people worth something in the new world... Pica and then killer. Granted he didn't struggle too much against either but in context, he has only faced people well weaker than doflamingo and now he'd be jumping to someone at least a whole tier ahead of doflamingo, if not more. At least luffy went from doflamingo to cracker to katakuri... A more reasonable, but still very rushed in how oda handled it, progression. It seems unlikely, but not impossible, that orochi will have samurai as strong or stronger than king.

Supernova Killer is not an opponent to discard lightly. Pica with DR amount of stone is easily YC tier above the likes of Cracker, Jack and Queen.
Besides, Luffy has never shown dominance over either Cracker and Katakuri. Him pulling G4 against straightforward combatant like Ulti shows that he isnt really strong as the fandom initially thought, everyone expected Luffy to low diff commander tiers while he is struggling with those below it.

Besides, Zoro's portrayal against an actual top tier is better than Luffy's. He clashed 2 times with an Admiral and had no need to resort to his EL power-up while Luffy had to use EL PU against Fujitora. Zoro was ready for round 3 vs Fujitora when he saw that Luffy was sent flying, implying he would do better.

Orochi having someone above King is basically an impossibility at this point, imo. That chance ended with Kyoshiro being Denjiro.

 

[thedude]

Zoro has basically fought two people worth something in the new world... Pica and then killer. Granted he didn't struggle too much against either but in context, he has only faced people well weaker than doflamingo and now he'd be jumping to someone at least a whole tier ahead of doflamingo, if not more. At least luffy went from doflamingo to cracker to katakuri... A more reasonable, but still very rushed in how oda handled it, progression. It seems unlikely, but not impossible, that orochi will have samurai as strong or stronger than king.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2020 ---

Zoro's big fight being against orochi would be a huge letdown. Orochi is not a powerful guy. He has a presumably powerful fruit but otherwise he has nothing going for him. maybe he is stronger than he appears but tbh I think any strawhat could deal with him without too much trouble. Now, zoro could be the one to deal with orochi but it won't be his big fight in the arc. If zoro deals with orochi it makes sense that he has to get past his samurai first.

I can see him fighting King, but Oda has disappointed us too much recently with not giving the SH's tough fights to make them grow in story. He's obviously not going to be the one to take down Kaido, that's just silly talk that will only ever exist in peoples minds. But anything less than King or Queen is boring to me.

 

[kkck]

Supernova Killer is not an opponent to discard lightly. Pica with DR amount of stone is easily YC tier above the likes of Cracker, Jack and Queen.
Besides, Luffy has never shown dominance over either Cracker and Katakuri. Him pulling G4 against straightforward combatant like Ulti shows that he isnt really strong as the fandom initially thought, everyone expected Luffy to low diff commander tiers while he is struggling with those below it.

Besides, Zoro's portrayal against an actual top tier is better than Luffy's. He clashed 2 times with an Admiral and had no need to resort to his EL power-up while Luffy had to use EL PU against Fujitora. Zoro was ready for round 3 vs Fujitora when he saw that Luffy was sent flying, implying he would do better.

Orochi having someone above King is basically an impossibility at this point, imo. That chance ended with Kyoshiro being Denjiro.

Come on, pica had a strong fruit but it won't carry him THAT far. Heck, katakuri's awakening is likely to be a hard counter to pica's fruit altogether. Since it turns stuff into mochi which pica can't meld into. As for luffy, odds are that in gear 4 it would take but a love tap to defeat ulti... And luffy can handle gear 4 much better than before so just entering it is not really all that draining.

 

[thedude]

Come on, pica had a strong fruit but it won't carry him THAT far. Heck, katakuri's awakening is likely to be a hard counter to pica's fruit altogether. Since it turns stuff into mochi which pica can't meld into. As for luffy, odds are that in gear 4 it would take but a love tap to defeat ulti... And luffy can handle gear 4 much better than before so just entering it is not really all that draining.

I don't think anyone considers Pica a YC level guy...well, no one who is being serious. I get it, it sucks that Zoro and the rest of the SH's other than Luffy have gotten such short shrift since the timeskip. But it doesn't call for making things up like this lol.

Katakuri would crush Pica. Cracker would too. We saw how Pica couldn't deal with a single swordsman. Cracker could make an army of biscuit soldiers, which all had strong swords, and just destroy Pica.

The only person in Doflamingo's crew I'd put up with the YC's is Doflamingo himself. The Joker in the executives of Kaido's crew, I'd put him at least at Jacks level, but he could be at top tier level for all we know. Pica just doesn't rank there. He may be Tobi Roppo level just on his DF's power.

 

[nik87]

Come on, pica had a strong fruit but it won't carry him THAT far. Heck, katakuri's awakening is likely to be a hard counter to pica's fruit altogether. Since it turns stuff into mochi which pica can't meld into. As for luffy, odds are that in gear 4 it would take but a love tap to defeat ulti... And luffy can handle gear 4 much better than before so just entering it is not really all that draining.

Think about Pica and Cracker. Combatants who have weak bodies and use their DF produced mediums as a middle guy between them and their opponent.
Cracker uses tiny biscuits between him and his opponent while Pica puts an entire mountain between himself and his opponent. Exactly the same combat style. Who does it better? In most cases Pica. The size and the weight of his medium are incomparably better and compensate for the lower hardness.

Regarding Katakuri's awakening affecting Pica's awakening, I am sure the plot would prohibit such interaction between devil fruits otherwise Doflamingo's and Katakuri's awakening would be stuck in an endless loop of turning each other in their elements... I am sure it would require a much more than a love tap from G4 to take out ancient Zoans, they are not as fragile as Charlotte children.

 

[kkck]

I don't think anyone considers Pica a YC level guy...well, no one who is being serious. I get it, it sucks that Zoro and the rest of the SH's other than Luffy have gotten such short shrift since the timeskip. But it doesn't call for making things up like this lol.

Katakuri would crush Pica. Cracker would too. We saw how Pica couldn't deal with a single swordsman. Cracker could make an army of biscuit soldiers, which all had strong swords, and just destroy Pica.

The only person in Doflamingo's crew I'd put up with the YC's is Doflamingo himself. The Joker in the executives of Kaido's crew, I'd put him at least at Jacks level, but he could be at top tier level for all we know. Pica just doesn't rank there. He may be Tobi Roppo level just on his DF's power.

My take on pica is that he is a bit of a wildcard so to speak. His ability is just tricky to deal with and you need to have the right skillset for it. The bare minimum ends up being the sheer firepower or AEO to manage to get to him. Pica's basic skills are not bad but i do think they are probably subpar compared to yonko commanders. I do think pica could be a yonko commander but he'd probably be on the lower end of one. I could actually see a lot of people dealing with pica at the yonko commander level.

1.- Katakuri: Turn all the earth into mochi, the one or two shoot pica easily.
2.- Perospero: Make absurd amounts of candy to cover everything. It won't exactly counter pica but since perospero can control his candy it being everywhere will eventually be enough.
3.- Oven: Just make all the earth searing hot.
4.- Cracker: Sheer numbers. Every clone is very strong as self sufficient. Add to that cracker himself who is able to fight gear 4 for hours on end without getting hit (doflamingo in turn was nearly helpless against it). Sheer numbers would eventually allow cracker to get to pica. And if the clones can use long range slashes (not necessarily the case but its plausible).
5.- Crocodile: Just make everything into sand. Odds are that it would be a bit of a neverending cycle between him and pica though.


My guess is that pica could hold his own as a low tier yonko commander because his ability is tricky. I don't think he has the basic skills to hold his own against top 3 or mid range yonko commanders. Now, if observation haki can be used to target pica within the mountain he can become then odds are he simply can't hold his own at any yonko commander tier.

 

[thedude]

My take on pica is that he is a bit of a wildcard so to speak. His ability is just tricky to deal with and you need to have the right skillset for it. The bare minimum ends up being the sheer firepower or AEO to manage to get to him. Pica's basic skills are not bad but i do think they are probably subpar compared to yonko commanders. I do think pica could be a yonko commander but he'd probably be on the lower end of one. I could actually see a lot of people dealing with pica at the yonko commander level.

1.- Katakuri: Turn all the earth into mochi, the one or two shoot pica easily.
2.- Perospero: Make absurd amounts of candy to cover everything. It won't exactly counter pica but since perospero can control his candy it being everywhere will eventually be enough.
3.- Oven: Just make all the earth searing hot.
4.- Cracker: Sheer numbers. Every clone is very strong as self sufficient. Add to that cracker himself who is able to fight gear 4 for hours on end without getting hit (doflamingo in turn was nearly helpless against it). Sheer numbers would eventually allow cracker to get to pica. And if the clones can use long range slashes (not necessarily the case but its plausible).
5.- Crocodile: Just make everything into sand. Odds are that it would be a bit of a neverending cycle between him and pica though.


My guess is that pica could hold his own as a low tier yonko commander because his ability is tricky. I don't think he has the basic skills to hold his own against top 3 or mid range yonko commanders. Now, if observation haki can be used to target pica within the mountain he can become then odds are he simply can't hold his own at any yonko commander tier.

His ability is tricky, i just think the YC's we've seen are all beasts who could deal with it. Katakuri would know exactly where he was, and like you said, could turn the rocks to mochi. I've already explained Cracker. Smoothie could absorb water to be tall enough to fight him. I think someone as destructive as Jack would walk through his hits. He took the full brunt of Zunisha's attack and only looked annoyed at the bottom of the sea.

 

[kkck]

Think about Pica and Cracker. Combatants who have weak bodies and use their DF produced mediums as a middle guy between them and their opponent.
Cracker uses tiny biscuits between him and his opponent while Pica puts an entire mountain between himself and his opponent. Exactly the same combat style. Who does it better? In most cases Pica. The size and the weight of his medium are incomparably better and compensate for the lower hardness.

Regarding Katakuri's awakening affecting Pica's awakening, I am sure the plot would prohibit such interaction between devil fruits otherwise Doflamingo's and Katakuri's awakening would be stuck in an endless loop of turning each other in their elements... I am sure it would require a much more than a love tap from G4 to take out ancient Zoans, they are not as fragile as Charlotte children.

It's not the same... There are cases of people who over rely on their fruits to think they are awesome (as is the case with some logia) but that's not pica's or cracker's situation. Pica in this situation is simply outclassed. He isn't particularly weak in any one regard. He has high physical strength, decent haki, a strong fruit... Cracker in turn is a fucking monster. It's true that he is a bit of a glass cannon BUT in turn he is an excellent swordsman, he is extremely fast, uses his fruit at a high level and has powerful haki. Compared to doflamingo:

1.- Luffy was able to hold his own in gear 2/3 against doflamingo for a few moments. Against cracker he was immediately outclassed when using his gears 2/3.
2.- Cracker is perfectly capable of lunging at gear 4 luffy. Doflamingo could take gear 4 hits but luffy could even blitz doflamingo. With or without the cracker soldiers luffy simply couldn't speedblitz or overpower cracker.

It's entirely possible that awakenings work like that. The other possibility is that its a first come first serve thing. But.. that has nothing to do with pica. Pica isn't using an awakening, his ability is to simply control earth he fuses with. And we know katakuri's and doflamingo's ability works on that.

But... luffy by all appearances took out page one with gear 3. And as far as we know gear 4 hits substantially harder than gear 3. It's entirely possible that ulti and page one have the capacity to recover quickly from this though, as we saw with the impel down zoan users.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2020 ---

His ability is tricky, i just think the YC's we've seen are all beasts who could deal with it. Katakuri would know exactly where he was, and like you said, could turn the rocks to mochi. I've already explained Cracker. Smoothie could absorb water to be tall enough to fight him. I think someone as destructive as Jack would walk through his hits. He took the full brunt of Zunisha's attack and only looked annoyed at the bottom of the sea.

I agree. People with enough destructive capacity wouldn't exactly be phased by pica's hits. As in, pica throws a mountain of a punch and someone good enough to be a yonko executive would simply user whatever skill he has to destroy the punch. Zoro was basically in a battle of attrition against pica and towards the end the one in danger was not exactly zoro but rather the rest of the people around.

 

[nik87]

It's not the same... There are cases of people who over rely on their fruits to think they are awesome (as is the case with some logia) but that's not pica's or cracker's situation. Pica in this situation is simply outclassed. He isn't particularly weak in any one regard. He has high physical strength, decent haki, a strong fruit... Cracker in turn is a fucking monster. It's true that he is a bit of a glass cannon BUT in turn he is an excellent swordsman, he is extremely fast, uses his fruit at a high level and has powerful haki. Compared to doflamingo:

1.- Luffy was able to hold his own in gear 2/3 against doflamingo for a few moments. Against cracker he was immediately outclassed when using his gears 2/3.
2.- Cracker is perfectly capable of lunging at gear 4 luffy. Doflamingo could take gear 4 hits but luffy could even blitz doflamingo. With or without the cracker soldiers luffy simply couldn't speedblitz or overpower cracker.

It's entirely possible that awakenings work like that. The other possibility is that its a first come first serve thing. But.. that has nothing to do with pica. Pica isn't using an awakening, his ability is to simply control earth he fuses with. And we know katakuri's and doflamingo's ability works on that.

But... luffy by all appearances took out page one with gear 3. And as far as we know gear 4 hits substantially harder than gear 3. It's entirely possible that ulti and page one have the capacity to recover quickly from this though, as we saw with the impel down zoan users.

The difference between Crack and Doflamingo is that Doffy fights himself in CQC while Cracker uses a medium to fight and I completely disagree with Cracker being monster, fast, excellent swordsman when in the entire fight he resorted to his sword only 3 times and one of those was a cheap shot when biscuit broke.
However, Doffy can use a medium as well, as soon as he summoned his Awakening, it stopped G4 in its tracks and Luffy was in the same situation like against Cracker - he was hammering on Awakening while Doffy himself was taking 0 damage. That is a game that Cracker and Pica play as well and Pica plays it best.

Pica's medium is by far the biggest and keeps him safe better than Doffy's awakening or Cracker's biscuits. If a fire logia drops something like Entei, Pica wont be scratched while Doffy and Cracker will be engulfed in it and probably take sever damage. It is not easy to go through an entire mountain of stone to reach Pica's real body. Even someone like Katakuri, wouldnt be able to reach him even if he can detect his presence which I dont think is doable since Pica assimilates stone, he becomes one with it so if you are feeling an aura, you are probably feeling the entire mountain or you cant detect him at all... Katakuri's best DC feat is drilling a hole in the ground with Buzzcut Mochi, afaik and that hole was not even as big as the eye of Pica's golem.

Whether his awakening can affect the golem or not, I wont go further into it, we are both speculating based on nothing. Even if he can, the size of the awakening has been miniature compared to a golem. Another thing, Doflamingo's reaction speed drastically reduced after the Gamma Knife from Law.
I know Pica's ability isnt awakening, he still becomes one with the stone, stone assimilation human and uses it the same how people use awakening.

I dont think Luffy took out P1, i'm sure he will be up next chapter without a scratch. Queen stood up after BM couple of minutes later... I dont think he can easily take them out for good withsimple G4 hits, he would need Haki blasting to deal significant damage to them. Impel down Zoans recovered quickly and they arent as tough as ancient ones. Anyway, depends on how much damage Oda wants to deal to them, a G4 hit could break their every bone or none...

 

[kkck]

The difference between Crack and Doflamingo is that Doffy fights himself in CQC while Cracker uses a medium to fight and I completely disagree with Cracker being monster, fast, excellent swordsman when in the entire fight he resorted to his sword only 3 times and one of those was a cheap shot when biscuit broke.
However, Doffy can use a medium as well, as soon as he summoned his Awakening, it stopped G4 in its tracks and Luffy was in the same situation like against Cracker - he was hammering on Awakening while Doffy himself was taking 0 damage. That is a game that Cracker and Pica play as well and Pica plays it best.

Pica's medium is by far the biggest and keeps him safe better than Doffy's awakening or Cracker's biscuits. If a fire logia drops something like Entei, Pica wont be scratched while Doffy and Cracker will be engulfed in it and probably take sever damage. It is not easy to go through an entire mountain of stone to reach Pica's real body. Even someone like Katakuri, wouldnt be able to reach him even if he can detect his presence which I dont think is doable since Pica assimilates stone, he becomes one with it so if you are feeling an aura, you are probably feeling the entire mountain or you cant detect him at all... Katakuri's best DC feat is drilling a hole in the ground with Buzzcut Mochi, afaik and that hole was not even as big as the eye of Pica's golem.

Whether his awakening can affect the golem or not, I wont go further into it, we are both speculating based on nothing. Even if he can, the size of the awakening has been miniature compared to a golem. Another thing, Doflamingo's reaction speed drastically reduced after the Gamma Knife from Law.
I know Pica's ability isnt awakening, he still becomes one with the stone, stone assimilation human and uses it the same how people use awakening.

I dont think Luffy took out P1, i'm sure he will be up next chapter without a scratch. Queen stood up after BM couple of minutes later... I dont think he can easily take them out for good withsimple G4 hits, he would need Haki blasting to deal significant damage to them. Impel down Zoans recovered quickly and they arent as tough as ancient ones. Anyway, depends on how much damage Oda wants to deal to them, a G4 hit could break their every bone or none...

Realistically speaking cracker and doflamingo are comfortable at pretty much all ranges. It is true that we saw less of the fight between cracker and luffy but the fight actually laste longer than the fight between doflamingo and luffy. A few hours at the absolute most vs a whole night. And sure, awakening did allow doflamingo to keep luffy further at bay... But its not the case that doflamingo completely cancelled gear 4. Even post awakening luffy still managed to land hits on doflamingo, its how he won. In turn luffy landed exactly one hit against cracker and that after hours of uninterrupted combat with support from nami who pretty much entirely neutralized cracker's army. Cracker is a glass cannon but the only possible way he could have survived even the one time we saw him lunge at luffy is that he was simply strong enough to not get immediately outmaneuvered by gear 4. Which is more than doflamingo could ever do.

Page one was at least knocked out at the time considering he didn't require further punishment from yamato and wasn't addressed in any way. Going forward, it is well possible he along with ulti will appear again. And if gear 3 can do that to page one... then with gear 4 its already game over. Let alone the consideration that luffy pretty much speedblitz page one here. Even if page one can take a hit from gear 4, he can't ever possibly react to it, at least in his dinosaur form. I wouldn't hope too much page one wise if even sanji kinda schooled him (even if there was invisibility involved).

 

[thedude]

Realistically speaking cracker and doflamingo are comfortable at pretty much all ranges. It is true that we saw less of the fight between cracker and luffy but the fight actually laste longer than the fight between doflamingo and luffy. A few hours at the absolute most vs a whole night. And sure, awakening did allow doflamingo to keep luffy further at bay... But its not the case that doflamingo completely cancelled gear 4. Even post awakening luffy still managed to land hits on doflamingo, its how he won. In turn luffy landed exactly one hit against cracker and that after hours of uninterrupted combat with support from nami who pretty much entirely neutralized cracker's army. Cracker is a glass cannon but the only possible way he could have survived even the one time we saw him lunge at luffy is that he was simply strong enough to not get immediately outmaneuvered by gear 4. Which is more than doflamingo could ever do.

Page one was at least knocked out at the time considering he didn't require further punishment from yamato and wasn't addressed in any way. Going forward, it is well possible he along with ulti will appear again. And if gear 3 can do that to page one... then with gear 4 its already game over. Let alone the consideration that luffy pretty much speedblitz page one here. Even if page one can take a hit from gear 4, he can't ever possibly react to it, at least in his dinosaur form. I wouldn't hope too much page one wise if even sanji kinda schooled him (even if there was invisibility involved).

Agree on all, but I don't think Cracker is a glass cannon. He got sent flying through his haki reinforced biscuit soldiers, who could survive gear 4 kong guns. He was sent through trees and buildings. Luffy's gear 4 strength, plus all the stuff he crashed through would be game over for a lot I think. The fact that he could put haki into the biscuits so they were that hard shows he probably had a lot of strength on his own.

 

[King Moe]

Zoro has basically fought two people worth something in the new world... Pica and then killer. Granted he didn't struggle too much against either but in context, he has only faced people well weaker than doflamingo and now he'd be jumping to someone at least a whole tier ahead of doflamingo, if not more. At least luffy went from doflamingo to cracker to katakuri... A more reasonable, but still very rushed in how oda handled it, progression. It seems unlikely, but not impossible, that orochi will have samurai as strong or stronger than king.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2020 ---

Zoro's big fight being against orochi would be a huge letdown. Orochi is not a powerful guy. He has a presumably powerful fruit but otherwise he has nothing going for him. maybe he is stronger than he appears but tbh I think any strawhat could deal with him without too much trouble. Now, zoro could be the one to deal with orochi but it won't be his big fight in the arc. If zoro deals with orochi it makes sense that he has to get past his samurai first.

Not really. Looking how Oda building him up and giving him an Mythical Zoan DF, he can't be fodder material as Oda wouldn't waste powerful DF to someone like that. Especially if his lore match his name, then he can have ability to regenerate from his injures and thus be undefeated by cutting him which be good challenge for Zoro to cut something that can't be cut. Plus it be a impact for him to take out one of the leaders himself. Maybe not compare to others feats like Luffy, Kidd, and Law, but he do something in beating someone notable.

There is also a chance he can face an team fight with Orochi, Kanjuro, and T6H along with Scabbards to back him up in the fighting. He need more resume on fighting swordsmen since like you said, he fought many fodder-like enemies during NW. No one to really talk about especially compare to those who Luffy and even Sanji faced on their side. This could be good point on facing credible foe on taking on Orochi side.

 

[kkck]

Not really. Looking how Oda building him up and giving him an Mythical Zoan DF, he can't be fodder material as Oda wouldn't waste powerful DF to someone like that. Especially if his lore match his name, then he can have ability to regenerate from his injures and thus be undefeated by cutting him which be good challenge for Zoro to cut something that can't be cut. Plus it be a impact for him to take out one of the leaders himself. Maybe not compare to others feats like Luffy, Kidd, and Law, but he do something in beating someone notable.

There is also a chance he can face an team fight with Orochi, Kanjuro, and T6H along with Scabbards to back him up in the fighting. He need more resume on fighting swordsmen since like you said, he fought many fodder-like enemies during NW. No one to really talk about especially compare to those who Luffy and even Sanji faced on their side. This could be good point on facing credible foe on taking on Orochi side.

Oda wastes powerful fruits all the time... Buggy's fruit, noro noro fruit, wapo's fruit... even robin's fruit is wasted in her.... There are just so many fruits. Also, orochi isn't necessarily based on a hydra which regrows heads but rather the japanese version... which iirc can't just regrow heads. And even if orochi can regrow heads, it doesn't mean his entire body can regenerate. And regeneration would likely be limited anyways as is the case with marco who regenerates at the cost of stamina. IIRC we even saw orochi with a katana and the guy was a jackass with it. Orochi is almost certainly just a weak jackass with a powerful fruit that wouldn't even defeat a pre timeskip supernova..

I would also add that sanji's track record in the new world is worst than zoro's. Sanji has nothing to show at this stage in the new world, zoro at least has pica and killer...

 

[thedude]

Oda wastes powerful fruits all the time... Buggy's fruit, noro noro fruit, wapo's fruit... even robin's fruit is wasted in her.... There are just so many fruits. Also, orochi isn't necessarily based on a hydra which regrows heads but rather the japanese version... which iirc can't just regrow heads. And even if orochi can regrow heads, it doesn't mean his entire body can regenerate. And regeneration would likely be limited anyways as is the case with marco who regenerates at the cost of stamina. IIRC we even saw orochi with a katana and the guy was a jackass with it. Orochi is almost certainly just a weak jackass with a powerful fruit that wouldn't even defeat a pre timeskip supernova..

I would also add that sanji's track record in the new world is worst than zoro's. Sanji has nothing to show at this stage in the new world, zoro at least has pica and killer...

Yeah, they both have crappy track records in the NW. Oda went from plotting out one on one fights for each SH in each arc to just shooing them away while he focuses on Bartolomeo or Law or Kyros or whoever new guy he wants to feature. It sucks. I want Zoro and Sanji and Usop fights again.

 

[kkck]

Agree on all, but I don't think Cracker is a glass cannon. He got sent flying through his haki reinforced biscuit soldiers, who could survive gear 4 kong guns. He was sent through trees and buildings. Luffy's gear 4 strength, plus all the stuff he crashed through would be game over for a lot I think. The fact that he could put haki into the biscuits so they were that hard shows he probably had a lot of strength on his own.

Two things:

1.- Haki being a glass cannon is based on what cracker said. I don't think this bit is that debatable. Now, it is true that he might be durable enough to take some damage but odds are his HP is still pretty low at least.

2.- I don't think his army was imbued with haki. Based on what we have learned this would actually be an extraordinary feat. My take on this is that the soldier he wore as an armor used haki but the ones separated from him did not but were still pretty damn powerful and resilient.

 

[thedude]

Two things:

1.- Haki being a glass cannon is based on what cracker said. I don't think this bit is that debatable. Now, it is true that he might be durable enough to take some damage but odds are his HP is still pretty low at least.

2.- I don't think his army was imbued with haki. Based on what we have learned this would actually be an extraordinary feat. My take on this is that the soldier he wore as an armor used haki but the ones separated from him did not but were still pretty damn powerful and resilient.

I think you are right on the second one. I don't recall him saying he was weak, or a glass cannon though?

 

[kkck]

I think you are right on the second one. I don't recall him saying he was weak, or a glass cannon though?

This is the bit, though I suppose a better translation could be different. With that bit oda basically set up luffy to defeat cracker with a single attack. Since cracker can't stand pain....

 

[thedude]

This is the bit, though I suppose a better translation could be different. With that bit oda basically set up luffy to defeat cracker with a single attack. Since cracker can't stand pain....

OK, see it now, thanks! I don't think that means a single attack would win though, but i guess we can agree to disagree there. I think it just shows he doesn't like to fight and get hurt, so he uses his armor instead. And clearly his haki is damn strong as Luffy couldn't do a thing to his original armor until he used Gear 4, and then again Cracker made his blade black and cut Luffy.