Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[Shasha23]

my man nik87 is back
Year 2021 will show what the future WSS is capable of

Careful now, since he is not fighting a swordsman his fights dont count towards his goal of becoming the strongest as our fellow posters would have you believe

 

[Moss Green]

Read my comments again. I'm not repeating myself. And if you still don't get it, read them a third time. And if you still don't get it after that just agree to disagree and move on.

Haha oh believe you me I have ready every word you said.
And your assertion falls apart here.

This leads us to believe their wasn't a WSS until Mihawk claimed the title for his own.otherwise we would have had Roger or Shiki with that title.

Yes this IS the point. Mihawk did not “claim” the title in the same way Roger did not “claim” to be Pirate King. It was a title bestowed upon them after the fact.

You’re right Mihawk’s title is a narrative foil for Zoro. But the title of Pirate King is only a narrative foil for Luffy. He doesn’t want to rule the seas like a king he just wants a grand adventure.

Oda has just decided to not have a swordsman in every arc claiming to want to be WSS. If I’m not mistaken the only other Pirate to ACTUALLY claim to want to be Pirate King on page is Kidd correct? It appears Oda just wants to make these these few characters distinct from the rest by so publicly reiterating their dreams

 

[Pirate Queen]

Haha oh believe you me I have ready every word you said.
And your assertion falls apart here.
.

Except everything I said was factual. You can have a different opinion on the matter. But I used facts to back it. Sorry.

 

[Moss Green]

Frankly the narrative significance of Luffy, Zoro, and Kidd being the only ones to say “I’m going to be the ______!” is that they’re the only ones with the conviction to say it out loud. To anyone/everyone they meet. I’m The conviction to stand at the top. It is one of the most important underlying themes of the story.

Claiming to understand characters and not understand this is a major oversight

 

[Pirate Queen]

Arguing the WSS is going to detract from my main points so I won't address them. This is the Zoro thread overall and to address them would just detract. Everyone knows my opinion on the matter anyway. It literally has nothing to do with my arguement anyway

 

[Moss Green]

Arguing the WSS is going to detract from my main points so I won't address them. This is the Zoro thread overall and to address them would just detract. Everyone knows my opinion on the matter anyway. It literally has nothing to do with my arguement anyway

I understand your point and I actually agree with you, the story would be better if there were lots of strong swordsman around. Or more specifically, if more of the strong pirates in the series were specifically described as “swordsman” to provide clarity. Oda should have been better about that.

But the Luffy -> Rayleigh and Zoro -> Mihawk were clearly decisions by Oda to streamline the narrative.

Luffy wants to be Pirate King? He was trained by the man who was closest to him, the next best thing

Zoro wants to be the WSS? Trained by the man closest to it, the actual WSS

These choices were about narrative weight. They were huge HOLY SH!T moments for each of these characters being trained by legends. A random swordsman who we previously knew nothing about would have zero weight and not allowed for Zoro’s character development in his deference of pride for Luffy. It’s written in the scene

 

[Pirate Queen]

I understand your point and I actually agree with you, the story would be better if there were lots of strong swordsman around. Or more specifically, if more of the strong pirates in the series were specifically described as “swordsman” to provide clarity. Oda should have been better about that.

But the Luffy -> Rayleigh and Zoro -> Mihawk were clearly decisions by Oda to streamline the narrative.

Luffy wants to be Pirate King? He was trained by the man who was closest to him, the next best thing

Zoro wants to be the WSS? Trained by the man closest to it, the actual WSS

These choices were about narrative weight. They were huge HOLY SH!T moments for each of these characters being trained by legends. A random swordsman who we previously knew nothing about would have zero weight and not allowed for Zoro’s character development in his deference of pride for Luffy. It’s written in the scene

And this is just where our opinion differs. I think this discussion as ran its course for me tho.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2021 ---

Careful now, since he is not fighting a swordsman his fights dont count towards his goal of becoming the strongest as our fellow posters would have you believe

Did I say they don't count? His job as being the Right hand man of the future Pirate King has been done to near perfection. They count towards Luffy's goal certainly and they do make him stronger.

For his goal? He needs better swordsmen opponents. Elite swordsmen.

But go ahead and pout because I think the future WORLD'S STRONGEST SWORDSMAN should fight SWORDSMEN

 

[Shasha23]

So him fighting a none swordsman like Daz Bones who pushed him to the point of him starting to understand haki and being able to cut steel was not for his benefit of becoming WSS but was for Luffy's benefit of becoming PK??? yeah

His goal is to become WSS not the man with the most sword skills, he just needs to fight stronger people that push him in order to make him stronger, it doesnt matter if they are swordsmen or not, the fact is every fight makes him stronger.

Worlds Strongest Swordsman is a man who is so strong with swords they a dubbed the strongest in the world.

WSS it is not a title of someone who has beaten the most swordsmen while wearing the number 2 headband and became the new Number 1, this is not Afro Samurai.

 

[Nie Li]

So him fighting a none swordsman like Daz Bones who pushed him to the point of him starting to understand haki and being able to cut steel was not for his benefit of becoming WSS but was for Luffy's benefit of becoming PK??? yeah

His goal is to become WSS not the man with the most sword skills, he just needs to fight stronger people that push him in order to make him stronger, it doesnt matter if they are swordsmen or not, the fact is every fight makes him stronger.

Worlds Strongest Swordsman is a man who is so strong with swords they a dubbed the strongest in the world.

WSS it is not a title of someone who has beaten the most swordsmen while wearing the number 2 headband and became the new Number 1, this is not Afro Samurai.

That's it. The point for Zoro is to become stronger. Swordsmen are part of the same "strength ranking" that any other character is a part of. The current strongest swordsman in the world is a top tier fighter, so to become stronger than him, Zoro improves by beating up any strong opponent that he has the chance to fight.

He will demonstrate he's the WSS when he finally is at a level at which he can defeat Mihawk, but in his path of improvement to get there he may as well defeat the world's strongest Fishman Karateka for all I care.

 

[Aliocha]

Whether skill doesn't matter but just the overall swordsman's strength.

kaido became the strongest swordsman in the world from the moment he cut Orochi's head with a sword.

Now see how the definition of a swordsman is complicated. The skill with the sword is inherent in the strength of the swordsman, there is no way to separate one from the other.

Imagine having the dream of being the greatest soccer player in the world enjoying volleyball matches with Olympic athletes

 

[Nie Li]

Whether skill doesn't matter but just the overall swordsman's strength.

kaido became the strongest swordsman in the world from the moment he cut Orochi's head with a sword.

Now see how the definition of a swordsman is complicated. The skill with the sword is inherent in the strength of the swordsman, there is no way to separate one from the other.

Imagine having the dream of being the greatest soccer player in the world enjoying volleyball matches with Olympic athletes

Not a good comparison, since soccer skills don't improve by playing volleyball, but Zoro's strength as a swordsman does improve by fighting Kaido.

A better comparison would be wanting to be the strongest karateka in real life, and to become stronger challenging any fighter that comes around, be it a taekwondo, jet kune do or kenpo practicioners. The karateka would naturally grow stronger as a fighter through those fights, essentially growing closer to becoming the strongest karateka alive. He'd still have to prove to be the strongest karateka by defeating whoever else is considered to be a top-tier karateka, but he may very well surpass them all by defeating people from other styles before he challenges those toptiers.

 

[Shasha23]

Whether skill doesn't matter but just the overall swordsman's strength.

kaido became the strongest swordsman in the world from the moment he cut Orochi's head with a sword.

Now see how the definition of a swordsman is complicated. The skill with the sword is inherent in the strength of the swordsman, there is no way to separate one from the other.

Imagine having the dream of being the greatest soccer player in the world enjoying volleyball matches with Olympic athletes

OMG

Who did Kaido beat with a sword for him to become WSS, just Orochi?????? then i guess Kaido is at a level above Orochi bud and the WSS is someone above yonko so you need to go back and reevaluate your logic.
If Kaido beat Big Mum with that sword then i would take you seriously

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2021 ---

A better comparison would be wanting to be the strongest karateka in real life, and to become stronger challenging any fighter that comes around, be it a taekwondo, jet kune do or kenpo practicioners. The karateka would naturally grow stronger as a fighter through those fights, essentially growing closer to becoming the strongest karateka alive. He'd still have to prove to be the strongest karateka by defeating whoever else is considered to be a top-tier karateka, but he may very well surpass them all by defeating people from other styles before he challenges those toptiers.

Thank you

 

[Ellenate]

since we've devolved into technicalities...

has zoro ever said he wanted to be the strongest?
i'm looking and i only see him saying "greatest".

 

[Nie Li]

since we've devolved into technicalities...

has zoro ever said he wanted to be the strongest?
i'm looking and i only see him saying "greatest".

I don't see any technicality being debated.


Where are you looking? Zoro wants to be the strongest swordsman in the world, which is coincidentially a title held by Mihawk. Strongest, not greatest, with the same kanji that's used for "World's Strongest Man" and "World's Strongest Creature".

 

[Shasha23]

since we've devolved into technicalities...

has zoro ever said he wanted to be the strongest?
i'm looking and i only see him saying "greatest".

YES!
Zoro has said he wants to be the Worlds Strongest Swordsman

Zoro has never NEVER said "greatest" ever, Mihawk has never ever ever been called Worlds Greatest Swordsman, Oda calls him the Strongest Swordsman, majority of the misinformation and misconception among the community is because the majority were under the impression that Mihawk is the greatest not the strongest because of bad translations.
This misinformation has lead many people to the point that they cant accept the fact that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks and Fujitora, while cannon has already informed us that Shanks and Fujitora are both swordsmen meaning they are below Mihawk but the community wont accept what Oda said all because of the Worlds Greatest Swordsman nonsense!

 

[HereNThere]

He will demonstrate he's the WSS when he finally is at a level at which he can defeat Mihawk, but in his path of improvement to get there he may as well defeat the world's strongest Fishman Karateka for all I care.

This is likely where the deviation lies for both parties of this discussion. I personally want more sword duels on Zoro's end to show his improvement, rather than him just fighting against strong folks. I want to see Zoro prove to other swordspersons why his Santoryu is superior to their technique. Or why he's more in tune with his blades than they are.

 

[Pirate Queen]

This is likely where the deviation lies for both parties of this discussion. I personally want more sword duels on Zoro's end to show his improvement, rather than him just fighting against strong folks. I want to see Zoro prove to other swordspersons why his Santoryu is superior to their technique. Or why he's more in tune with his blades than they are.

I agree. Both sides want Zoro to fight more swordsmen. Where we differ is how Zoro is viewed because of his lack of proper opponents

 

[Ellenate]

Zoro wants to be the strongest swordsman

nah he said greatest

 

[Shasha23]

This is likely where the deviation lies for both parties of this discussion. I personally want more sword duels on Zoro's end to show his improvement, rather than him just fighting against strong folks. I want to see Zoro prove to other swordspersons why his Santoryu is superior to their technique. Or why he's more in tune with his blades than they are.

We all probably want to see more swordfights but that is not how Oda is leveling him up, for Oda his path to the top is him fighting opponents that keep improving him while he keeps getting stronger until the time comes where he fulfills Mihawks expectations and surpasses Shanks so they can have their rematch.
The problem with the commenters here now is that even if Zoro improves himself with none swordmen opponents it doesn't count or diminishes his achievements for some weird reason.

The whole point of this is that Zoro becomes stronger as he fights more people until he reaches the top, it was never meant as Zoro fights other swordmen in some race to reach the boss.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2021 ---

nah he said greatest

When?

 

[Nie Li]

nah he said greatest

Not if the translation is good.