Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[McNuss]

Do you really want to argue about Mihawk's powerlevel?

Yes, because not questioning this baseless fact is a rather bad way of reading. Factually we have that supposedly having taken place in an unshown past, its much more void then full of meaning actually.

He got a bounty of 3 billion and was said to be a stronger swordsman than Shanks. He's estabilished as a Yonko level character now.

Shanks sword might be a blaster for all we know. Buggy is the Yonko

Mihawk couldn't get past Vista? Don't take powerlevels in One Piece too serious. It's still better than Apoo humilhating Luffy and Zoro.

It's exactly because of them not being taken too seriously that I go on with that assumption. Remember Monsters? The big twist at the end was that Ryuma was the strongest swordsman, and not Cyrano.

Anyway, story-wise it makes zero sense that Zoro defeated Mihawk during the time-skip. That would make him much stronger than his captain. Luffy had to use a desperate techinque like Gear 4, when he had a much stronger Shichibukai-beating crewmate around?

Actually story-wise it doesn't matter at all wether Zoro or Luffy is stronger.

Dressrosa is highly contrived, it had to achieve many things at the same time. In-universe, all Zoro has to do is believe that Luffy is strong enough, which he does, though he has also admitted disappointment when Luffy has messed up or criticism when Luffy is clowning around, since the timeskip, which would be an argument for superstition, his image of Luffy is actually better than the real one, hence why he gets upset because it hurts his feelings.

Zoro vs Doflamingo would have went like this:

Zoro: "I can't cut you!"

Doflamingo: "That's right you can't cut me!"

Zoro: "Lol just kidding"

*slash*

See, I am a genius writer I can write any Zoro fight.

 

[Fox666]

Personally I think Doflamingo vs Zoro would go the same as when he fought Sanji.

 

[kkck]

Hmm, I don't think zoro actually stood a chance against doflamingo but I do think he could have performed better than sanji by a fair margin. Zoro won his fight against pica with significant leeway and didn't even use azura which so far has been framed as a very significant boost. Based zoro being more or less in just behind of G2-G3 luffy at that point in the story is not insane either. To me it's a hard sell that with azura zoro wouldn't have at least managed to land some big hits against doflamingo, like law did. Sanji at this point in the story just piggybags on his easy magic germa genes for powerups. A dramatically different situation from zoro whose haki (as in actual skill) upgrades have given him the capacity to hit at the yonko tier. Sanji being stronger than queen is significant to the world at large of course but zoro is a solid candidate for yonko level fighter, sanji just isn't framed like that.

 

[LaGOAT]

Personally I think Doflamingo vs Zoro would go the same as when he fought Sanji.

Doubt it zoro would have perform better

 

[XXGenesis]

Personally I think Doflamingo vs Zoro would
go the same as when he fought Sanji.

Not very sound logic. As Zoro is stronger than Sanji.

It would be more similar to how Law faired up
against Doflamingo.

Zoro would get in a 1-2 good attacks to do some decent damage; While Doflamingo just having higher stats would end the fight dealing significant damage to Zoro putting him out of the fight…

Doubt it zoro would have perform better

Of course he would have. Zoro is stronger and has a different fighting style.

Sanji at best would extreme Diff a Yonkou officer…*Vergo

Zoro was a comfortable YC4.

 

[grey matter]

Not very sound logic. As Zoro is stronger than Sanji.

It would be more similar to how Law faired up
against Doflamingo.

Zoro would get in a 1-2 good attacks to do some decent damage; While Doflamingo just having higher stats would end the fight dealing significant damage to Zoro putting him out of the fight…



Of course he would have. Zoro is stronger and has a different fighting style.

Sanji at best would extreme Diff a Yonkou officer…*Vergo

Zoro was a comfortable YC4.

It's a bit more complicated than "Zoro is stronger than Sanji, comparable to Law....hence he performs similar to Law"

Matchup matters.
Law had the tools to escape being tied up, because he can teleport.

Zoro is toast once he gets tied up. For characters who can't change their body shape, you need barrier haki to free yourself from that.
Now, Zoro is good in CQC and it will take a while to get there. But it will eventually happen, and the fight ends right there.

Instead of getting no diff'd like Sanji, Zoro would get low diff'd. But can't push Doffy to a borderline mid diff, like Law could.

 

[XXGenesis]

It's a bit more complicated than "Zoro is stronger than Sanji, comparable to Law....hence he performs similar to Law"

Matchup matters.
Law had the tools to escape being tied up, because he can teleport.

Zoro is toast once he gets tied up. For characters who can't change their body shape, you need barrier haki to free yourself from that.
Now, Zoro is good in CQC and it will take a while to get there. But it will eventually happen, and the fight ends right there.

Instead of getting no diff'd like Sanji, Zoro would get low diff'd. But can't push Doffy to a borderline mid diff, like Law could.

Interesting opinion. Doflamingo has defeated everyone after Tieing them up, Law included.

Either Way Zoro has the AP & CQC to injure Doflamingo; Unlike Sanji did.

I never mentioned the fight difficulty. Just that Zoro would at least land 2 attacks cause some damage before losing.

It’s really not complicated, we aren’t the authors of the story..so it should be rather simple to just state our opinions

 

[grey matter]

Interesting opinion. Doflamingo has defeated everyone after Tieing them up, Law included.

I think Law just ran out of gas, else no reason he shouldn't teleport away like he did in prior times.

Either Way Zoro has the AP & CQC to injure Doflamingo; Unlike Sanji did.

I never mentioned the fight difficulty. Just that Zoro would at least land 2 attacks cause some damage before losing.

Yeah ok, agreed

 

[XXGenesis]

When did Zoro surpass Doflamingo?
Was it Start of Wano? Through power creep?
Mid Wano when Zoro gets Enma? & his AP has sky rocketed

 

[grey matter]

When did Zoro surpass Doflamingo?
Was it Start of Wano? Through power creep?
Mid Wano when Zoro gets Enma? & his AP has sky rocketed

IMO:
- Start of Wano Zoro: YC3 (passive growth from YC4/borderline-YC3 in Dresrossa)
- Rooftop Zoro: YC1 (his feats & portrayal in rooftop warrant that. Him vs King was basically matchup IMO, since King can't be hurt through physical attacks without advanced conqueror's. Rooftop Zoro beats Katakuri and gives Marco a run for his money)
- End of Wano Zoro: YC1+ (yonko level, comparable to Oden in KoH. YC1 level without KoH)


Zoro went from YC3 level at start of Wano, to YC1 level post training with Enma.

I rate Doflamingo higher than most of you guys (I have him above most non-YC1 commanders)
So based on where I have Doflamingo, I'd guess that Zoro surpassed Doflamingo sometime in the few weeks training period between prison break and start of raid. i.e "mid Wano"

 

[kkck]

Hmmm, I don't think zoro at the end of wano was as strong as oden. Oden just barely got the hang of using emma by the end of wano and even then zoro's maximum potential is still limited by his haki. Meanwhile oden at the end of his life could handle emma level haki output with both his swords casually. It's just how he fought. Zoro needs to improve his haki volume a fair bit and perhaps even master the other advanced haki techniques for him to be a proper yonko level fighter. So far the implication appears to be that admirals are capable of at least haki projection and foresight...

 

[Fox666]

How is Zoro at Oden's level?

Oden knocked down Kaido with a single attack, and would have killed Kaido wasn't for Higurashi.

When Zoro attacked Kaido, he was still standing. Considering how much damage Kaido took in Wano's atc, it would take 100 attacks like that to take down Kaido.

Also didn't Zoro almost died by just holding Zoro? As far we know, even when Oden was young he had no problem wielding it.

It's a bit more complicated than "Zoro is stronger than Sanji, comparable to Law....hence he performs similar to Law"

Matchup matters.
Law had the tools to escape being tied up, because he can teleport.

Zoro is toast once he gets tied up. For characters who can't change their body shape, you need barrier haki to free yourself from that.
Now, Zoro is good in CQC and it will take a while to get there. But it will eventually happen, and the fight ends right there.

Instead of getting no diff'd like Sanji, Zoro would get low diff'd. But can't push Doffy to a borderline mid diff, like Law could.

I would argue the opposite, that Zoro has less chance than Sanji

Sanji is super fast and can fly, making him a bit annoying to Doflamingo

Zoro usually tanks damage in battlel... meaning he's doomed from the start against Doflamingo.

 

[grey matter]

Hmmm, I don't think zoro at the end of wano was as strong as oden. Oden just barely got the hang of using emma by the end of wano and even then zoro's maximum potential is still limited by his haki. Meanwhile oden at the end of his life could handle emma level haki output with both his swords casually. It's just how he fought. Zoro needs to improve his haki volume a fair bit and perhaps even master the other advanced haki techniques for him to be a proper yonko level fighter. So far the implication appears to be that admirals are capable of at least haki projection and foresight...

Dude.......
I'm fairly certain you read that I said Zoro is overall YC1+ and comparable to Oden only during the duration of KoH alone.

Zoro: "Was Oden able to give you this much haki easily?"

Spoiler

Then he went on the king of hell mode, declaring that he can't keep up this level of haki output for a considerable duration of time.
And at the same time, he fully tamed Enma. This is a sword which can't be fully tamed until it gets the haki that it desires. What was the haki it was used to prior to being with Zoro? Prime Oden level haki.

The implication is pretty obvious.
In KoH mode, Zoro overuses both armament and conqueror's haki, to the point where it is comparable to Oden's. Zoro's haki pool however is not as big as Oden's, hence he's on a timer, while Oden could maintain that level of haki output for an unspecified duration of time

I don't even know what you're arguing against lol, you yourself say Zoro can perform at Yonko level for a limited duration of time.
I never said that Zoro is a proper yonko level fighter either. He can just perform at that level for like 10 mins or whatever is the current time limit of KoH.

How is Zoro at Oden's level?

Oden knocked down Kaido with a single attack, and would have killed Kaido wasn't for Higurashi.

When Zoro attacked Kaido, he was still standing. Considering how much damage Kaido took in Wano's atc, it would take 100 attacks like that to take down Kaido.

Also didn't Zoro almost died by just holding Zoro? As far we know, even when Oden was young he had no problem wielding it.

Nah, Kaido >= Oden.
Nothing proves Kaido would've died if not for the old hag, he would've got more serious and started using hybrid, future sight etc once the battle proceeded.
The narrative reason this happened was to have Oden's legend untarnished, and give Kaido his PTSD. Oda wants to have his cake and eat it too, Kaido gets his W but it's tarnished, Oden gets his L but he has the excuse.

Zoro giving Kaido the 2nd scar to Kaido since Oden, was to obviously parallel with Oden.
Zoro not knocking Kaido off his feet was emphasized to create the narrative distinction between what Oden did, and what Zoro could then manage.


Post Wano KoH Zoro obviously can hit a LOT harder than rooftop Zoro.
- In KoH mode, Zoro overuses advanced conqueror's haki, while in rooftop Zoro used accidental advanced conqueror's haki. Big difference between overusing advanced conqueror's, vs it unknowingly leaking out
- KoH mode has haki output comparable to Oden (panel posted above)
- Zoro was on his last legs against Kaido, having multiple broken bones

The obvious implication of the above is that post King fight KoH Zoro can hit a lot harder than rooftop Zoro's attack that scarred Kaido.

No reason to believe that the dragon damnation that KO'd King can't replicate what Oden did with his togen totsuka.
King is someone even harder to damage than Kaido.

I would argue the opposite, that Zoro has less chance than Sanji

Sanji is super fast and can fly, making him a bit annoying to Doflamingo

Zoro usually tanks damage in battlel... meaning he's doomed from the start against Doflamingo.

Sanji literally got folded within like 30 secs. No way Zoro loses that fast, after what he showed in Dresrossa arc.

Sanji can fly, but Zoro is better in CQC.
With good enough CQC, it would take a while before Doffy catches you within the string. Law did fine against Doffy in CQC for a good duration of time, no reason why Zoro can't replicate it since he's a better CQC fighter than Law.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Hm this is an interesting debate on Zoro and KoH in relation to Enma. My take on KoH mode is that it was Enma's way of forcing Zoro to start using CoC haki in general. Up to that point Zoro was only giving Enma the haki he thought he had which was CoA. I think Enma as a sword wanted the best it's wielder can offer.

From this point on I don't think we will see Zoro have much struggle using Enma at all. In all reality Zoro doesn't have to be in KoH mode for him to fight and he can still land aCoC attacks. He doesn't have to have aCoC constantly active for him to fight. I'd say he will be more like Luffy where he coats his attacks in aCoC when he's about to cut the opponent e.g. he coated his swords when attacking Pica. I don't think anyone can fight by constantly releasing their haki at max output. Luffy proved this with G4. To me KoH is the same thing, a powerful but unsustainable fighting form. For Zoro to grow he has to use aCoC freely when he wants without having to be in an all out mode like KoH.

 

[XXGenesis]

IMO:
- Start of Wano Zoro: YC3 (passive growth from YC4/borderline-YC3 in Dresrossa)
- Rooftop Zoro: YC1 (his feats & portrayal in rooftop warrant that. Him vs King was basically matchup IMO, since King can't be hurt through physical attacks without advanced conqueror's. Rooftop Zoro beats Katakuri and gives Marco a run for his money)
- End of Wano Zoro: YC1+ (yonko level, comparable to Oden in KoH. YC1 level without KoH)


Zoro went from YC3 level at start of Wano, to YC1 level post training with Enma.

I rate Doflamingo higher than most of you guys (I have him above most non-YC1 commanders)
So based on where I have Doflamingo, I'd guess that Zoro surpassed Doflamingo sometime in the few weeks training period between prison break and start of raid. i.e "mid Wano"

Agreed.

KOH Zoro is YC1+

My bias behind Zoro is that he casually gets stronger every time he fights…So given that he endured the Dual Yonkou attack blocking it for a few seconds then used Asura to scar Kaido; To later unlocked ACOC/KOH;

I say he defeats Marco; Yamato; Etc

Lol your getting push back because you said Zoro is comparable to Oden…..Lol, guess you needed to articulate more…Because he is and isn’t

Oden is still way stronger than Zoro. Like still a tier above him.

*I would love to talk Doflamingo, but this ain’t the thread. He’s not that strong. He has an ability that can catch ppl off guard…Being caught off guard in One Piece is normal. His ability won’t work or he won’t get to use such an ability to his advantage if someone is stronger….

 

[grey matter]

Hm this is an interesting debate on Zoro and KoH in relation to Enma. My take on KoH mode is that it was Enma's way of forcing Zoro to start using CoC haki in general. Up to that point Zoro was only giving Enma the haki he thought he had which was CoA. I think Enma as a sword wanted the best it's wielder can offer.

From this point on I don't think we will see Zoro have much struggle using Enma at all. In all reality Zoro doesn't have to be in KoH mode for him to fight and he can still land aCoC attacks. He doesn't have to have aCoC constantly active for him to fight. I'd say he will be more like Luffy where he coats his attacks in aCoC when he's about to cut the opponent e.g. he coated his swords when attacking Pica. I don't think anyone can fight by constantly releasing their haki at max output. Luffy proved this with G4. To me KoH is the same thing, a powerful but unsustainable fighting form. For Zoro to grow he has to use aCoC freely when he wants without having to be in an all out mode like KoH.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

We see now that Enma isn't acting up with Zoro at all. He is casually holding it post Wano.
Meaning, Zoro has tamed Enma.

What happened IMO in King vs Zoro is that, Zoro proved to Enma that he is capable of giving it Oden level haki, even if only for a limited duration of time. And that resulted in Enma finally recognizing Zoro as it's master.
Because Enma by it's nature is a greedy sword. It grew being used to the haki that Oden supplies him, and in the end was accustomed to prime Oden level haki. It won't accept another swordsman who can't prove to it that he can't supply it with the haki that it needs.


Zoro will from now on, no longer need KoH to keep Enma in check. Because Enma accepted him.
I think Zoro is already capable of using advanced conqueror's freely, since he decided to willingly use it's "barrier" function to get King's sword away from him to prevent the breaker function from disarming him.
He would need more mastery of course, but he probably passively learned it after Wano. Don't think we will get to see him

Lol your getting push back because you said Zoro is comparable to Oden…..Lol, guess you needed to articulate more…Because he is and isn’t

Oden is still way stronger than Zoro. Like still a tier above him.

Man, people can't read lmao, not my fault.

I literally said Zoro is overall "YC1+", and is comparable to Oden only for a limited time in the duration of KoH (maybe 10 minutes).

Oden of course is a tier above Zoro. He is solid Yonko level.
Zoro can compete with him for the duration of KoH, but then gets destroyed once the timer runs out. Overall a mid-high diff I suppose.

*I would love to talk Doflamingo, but this ain’t the thread. He’s not that strong. He has an ability that can catch ppl off guard…Being caught off guard in One Piece is normal. His ability won’t work or he won’t get to use such an ability to his advantage if someone is stronger….

Not to derail things further.

But what would your opinion be, if we see Crocodile be some really strong fighter comparable to YC1, when we see him fight next? Just talking hypotheticals.
I hope we can at least agree that in the one instance we saw Doffy and Crocodile together, Doflamingo got the clear portrayal advantage.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Yeah, I can agree with that.

We see now that Enma isn't acting up with Zoro at all. He is casually holding it post Wano.
Meaning, Zoro has tamed Enma.

What happened IMO in King vs Zoro is that, Zoro proved to Enma that he is capable of giving it Oden level haki, even if only for a limited duration of time. And that resulted in Enma finally recognizing Zoro as it's master.
Because Enma by it's nature is a greedy sword. It grew being used to the haki that Oden supplies him, and in the end was accustomed to prime Oden level haki. It won't accept another swordsman who can't prove to it that he can't supply it with the haki that it needs.

Agreed on all of this. One caveat for me is quality vs quantity. I don't think the issue Enma had with Zoro was quantity of haki but the quality of the haki. Since Zoro could only release his CoC by going all out we have been fooled into thinking the thing Zoro needed to do was go all out in haki vs the reality which was he had to prove to Enma that he has the best quality haki possible CoC and that he can give Enma that CoC haki for battle.

Zoro will from now on, no longer need KoH to keep Enma in check. Because Enma accepted him.
I think Zoro is already capable of using advanced conqueror's freely, since he decided to willingly use it's "barrier" function to get King's sword away from him to prevent the breaker function from disarming him.
He would need more mastery of course, but he probably passively learned it after Wano. Don't think we will get to see him

I was under the impression that Zoro used aCoA to create the barrier against King's swords. I don't think that is aCoC by itself that can do that. For example we know Yamato uses aCoC due to the lighting streaks but not once has there been a barrier like thing. So yes Zoro used aCoC in that moment but I think he also had to use aCoA too for him to get the barrier effect.

 

[grey matter]

Agreed on all of this. One caveat for me is quality vs quantity. I don't think the issue Enma had with Zoro was quantity of haki but the quality of the haki. Since Zoro could only release his CoC by going all out we have been fooled into thinking the thing Zoro needed to do was go all out in haki vs the reality which was he had to prove to Enma that he has the best quality haki possible CoC and that he can give Enma that CoC haki for battle.

I say it's both quantity and quality

Quality because no matter how much armament Zoro gives it, it won't be satisfied until it knows Zoro is a conqueror. Conqueror's haki was a necessity to truly tame Enma.
Quantity, because Zoro outright compared the quantity of haki needed to tame Enma, to the haki that Oden was providing it.

I was under the impression that Zoro used aCoA to create the barrier against King's swords. I don't think that is aCoC by itself that can do that. For example we know Yamato uses aCoC due to the lighting streaks but not once has there been a barrier like thing. So yes Zoro used aCoC in that moment but I think he also had to use aCoA too for him to get the barrier effect.

Both advanced armament and advanced conqueror's produce barrier

I think that "big" barriers are characterized by advanced conqueror's haki.

Luffy was always using advanced armament haki too, but we started seeing the "gap" only once he started using advanced conqueror's haki.

 

[kkck]

Agreed on all of this. One caveat for me is quality vs quantity. I don't think the issue Enma had with Zoro was quantity of haki but the quality of the haki. Since Zoro could only release his CoC by going all out we have been fooled into thinking the thing Zoro needed to do was go all out in haki vs the reality which was he had to prove to Enma that he has the best quality haki possible CoC and that he can give Enma that CoC haki for battle.


I was under the impression that Zoro used aCoA to create the barrier against King's swords. I don't think that is aCoC by itself that can do that. For example we know Yamato uses aCoC due to the lighting streaks but not once has there been a barrier like thing. So yes Zoro used aCoC in that moment but I think he also had to use aCoA too for him to get the barrier effect.

Hmmm, I think it's wrong to frame conqueror haki as a quality thing. Conqueror's haki is just haki type with its own traits. It's weird to frame it as better than armor haki IMO. It's not quite an alternative to it, the best scenario is still to use the two simultaneously. The framing you suggest in regards to emma is weird. When it comes to emma there's definitely a quantity thing. And once zoro figured out emma he didn't solve the quanty haki issue. The sword is still every bit as demanding as before. And it will continue to be every bit as demanding going forward. What will change over time is that the inane amount of haki emma drains will eventually become something zoro can handle effortlessly. Even when zoro was fighting king his big realization from his flashback was that he should simply give in to emma and supplying all the haki it demanded. And the result was all three of his swords having that yonko level output.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 22, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 22, 2023 ---

That said, on second thought I do like the idea of emma being a unique blade compared to other cursed blades than has the capability to absorb conqueror's haki. A sword fit for a conqueror.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I say it's both quantity and quality

Quality because no matter how much armament Zoro gives it, it won't be satisfied until it knows Zoro is a conqueror. Conqueror's haki was a necessity to truly tame Enma.
Quantity, because Zoro outright compared the quantity of haki needed to tame Enma, to the haki that Oden was providing it.

I can agree with this. Overall we haven't seen very extensive use of haki by Zoro so he truly could need to just force train himself to increase volume.

Both advanced armament and advanced conqueror's produce barrier

I think that "big" barriers are characterized by advanced conqueror's haki.

Luffy was always using advanced armament haki too, but we started seeing the "gap" only once he started using advanced conqueror's haki.

I disagree with this. We had several examples of aCoC use by itself without any barrier forming. I think the only way to form a barrier is using aCoA. Adding aCoC on top of aCoA makes the barrier bigger and the attack over all more powerful.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 25, 2023 ---

Hmmm, I think it's wrong to frame conqueror haki as a quality thing. Conqueror's haki is just haki type with its own traits. It's weird to frame it as better than armor haki IMO. It's not quite an alternative to it, the best scenario is still to use the two simultaneously. The framing you suggest in regards to emma is weird. When it comes to emma there's definitely a quantity thing. And once zoro figured out emma he didn't solve the quanty haki issue. The sword is still every bit as demanding as before. And it will continue to be every bit as demanding going forward. What will change over time is that the inane amount of haki emma drains will eventually become something zoro can handle effortlessly. Even when zoro was fighting king his big realization from his flashback was that he should simply give in to emma and supplying all the haki it demanded. And the result was all three of his swords having that yonko level output.

I will say that there is no explicit quality hierarchy in OP when it comes to haki types but it has been strongly implied that CoC haki is on another level compared to the other two types. Anytime someone has CoC they are automatically assumed to be stronger/better/more capable than people who don't have it too. The fact that people with CoC are compared to Kings/Royalty supports this implication too.

When it comes to Enma yes I agree that quantity does have something to do with it. However, quality likely is a big factor. Whether the quality of haki is measured by type or something else entirely is up in the air. I view Enma kind of like how I view Samehada in Naruto. A sword that can absorb their users energy (chakra in Naruto and haki in OP), is able to distinguish the users it likes/respects based on that energy volume (Samehada also required a person with a lot chakra), and also some judgment on quality of the energy (seems Enma wasn't satisfied until Zoro used CoC and Samehada always was described to like the taste of certain chakras). With this comparison I will agree that quality can be a subjective thing for haki too where it is more like taste vs superiority. Maybe Enma just likes what CoC "tastes" like

That said, on second thought I do like the idea of emma being a unique blade compared to other cursed blades than has the capability to absorb conqueror's haki. A sword fit for a conqueror.

That would be cool if we learned that absorbing CoC haki is uniquely Enma thing. I'm guessing it is just a good sword to use to learn to use your abilities faster if you have CoC innately but couldn't draw it out yourself.