Round of 16 Laxus vs. Hakune

[grey matter]

@Nemispelled
Can Laxus going into his buff form with scales (used against Natsu/Gajeel) be considered comparable to Gray going into DeS mode?

If yes, that would be sufficient to counter Hakune

 

[Nemispelled]

@Nemispelled
Can Laxus going into his buff form with scales (used against Natsu/Gajeel) be considered comparable to Gray going into DeS mode?

If yes, that would be sufficient to counter Hakune

No, because simply changing into another mode has not been proven to halve Hakune's freezing spirit art.

We already have solid evidence of panels showing that Natsu was useless against Hakune's MP freezing ability. Considering that Natsu has one of the strongest & greatest number of different modes/forms in this manga, it doesn't make sense to assume that just any transformation in this manga will do the trick.

 

[grey matter]

No, because simply changing into another mode has not been proven to halve Hakune's freezing spirit art.

We already have solid evidence of panels showing that Natsu was useless against Hakune's MP freezing ability. Considering that Natsu has one of the strongest & greatest number of different modes/forms in this manga, it doesn't make sense to assume that just any transformation in this manga will do the trick.

All of Natsu's forms are DS however. Like, his base itself is DS.
The only major distinction comes when he uses DF, which he never does unless he wants to end someone for good.

For Laxus, it's different. His base is normal lightning, and then he uses DS lightning magic when he uses lacrima. So, he changes from base to a form slightly resembling a dragon. Especially when he goes drive mode and gets buff with scales.
Similar to Gray changing forms from base, to a form slightly resembling a demon.


Anyway, WHY do you think Gray was able to bypass Hakune's hax? I've never really understood it well, it's so vague and poorly explained.
All I know is either it has something to do with Gray's demon powers, or changing nature of MP, or maybe a mix of both.

 

[Nemispelled]

That sounds like she still needs of intent. We see Laxus summon lightning by doing nothing at all, even with the anime trying to expound upon it.After bullets were fired at him, and still connected first.
https://www.mangasee123.com/read-online/Fairy-Tail-chapter-472-page-4.html

So again, we’re back at who’s quicker to attack. That falls solidly in Laxus favor from multiple battles. The list of characters who should beat him in a quick draw situation is short. An you keep saying instant but we see that it’s a process. Leaving Laxus plenty of time to change his power to escape, or hurl one last massive Nuke.
https://www.mangasee123.com/read-online/Fairy-Tail-100-Years-Quest-chapter-84-page-6.html


An since he won’t be shouting out “lightning bolt” and she’s also busy trying to blitz him back, how is she freezing this lightning bolt? Is she on the offensive, or is she freezing attacks? If she’s freezing attacks, how does she survive the follow up blow. If she isn’t because she’s trying to freeze him, how does she tank the attack? Cause it was made clear that’s another spell of intent, and not a passive effect because she’s got her MP raised. What warns her to the attack?


How? Natsu is a Dragon Slayer. It’s his base magic. Then add elements and other dragon’s attributes. Grey goes from regular ice make magic as his base, to demon slayer ice. The same way the Laxus goes from lightning magic, to DS magic. In what way is Natsu the more direct comparison? Other than vibrating with your argument better? Especially when Natsu didn’t even have a chance to try it? All he did was try and power through it with heat because that always works. As you yourself pointed out, all Grey did was Change his magic output, not the source itself. Laxus has 2 options for they to Grey’s 1.

Laxus electrocuting those bullets was a defensive move. It's no different than Hakune freezing Gray's attacks with her eyes closed while standing still.

As for who is quicker to attack, Hakune has shown to be able to freeze someone's MP within a single panel - that's the fastest timeframe you're gonna get from a manga.


If Hakune is blitzing Laxus back, then he won't even have a chance to summon his lightning bolt because his MP will be frozen completely...

In the unlikely scenario that Laxus is the one doing the blitzing, Hakune will definitely have time to freeze his lightning bolt because she's not distracted by anything.

And the lightning bolt won't explode if it's already frozen before it reaches the ground.

And why would Hakune need a warning to attack???

If anything, she will attack first immediately and render Laxus' MP useless. Without MP, Laxus will essentially become a punching bag.



And no, Natsu is a more direct comparison to Laxus' case because you are saying that Laxus will try to counter Hakune's MP freezing ability.

That's exactly what Natsu tried to do in their initial encounter, but failed.

On the other hand, during Gray's initial encounter with Hakune, he didn't even attempt to counter the freezing spirit art. He simply made an observation that the temperature of her spell was cold enough to overcome his ice resistance, before he was eventually frozen solid.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2021 ---

All of Natsu's forms are DS however. Like, his base itself is DS.
The only major distinction comes when he uses DF, which he never does unless he wants to end someone for good.

For Laxus, it's different. His base is normal lightning, and then he uses DS lightning magic when he uses lacrima. So, he changes from base to a form slightly resembling a dragon. Especially when he goes drive mode and gets buff with scales.
Similar to Gray changing forms from base, to a form slightly resembling a demon.

Except that I never even bought into the fact that simply changing your property or type of magic is the reason for halving Hakune's freezing spirit art...

Like I already said in my post to Axiomus, Gray's base form is not a separate type of magic power. It's simply his human form without any demonization.

Axiomus' theory hinges on the fact that Gray was changing between "Ice-Make" and "Devil Slaying Magic", but that was clearly not the case because Gray always has Ice-Make magic, regardless of what form he takes - so he's not switching or changing anything.

This is proven by the panel where he simultaneously casted "Ice-Make: Ice Giants" while he was in his DeS form.

Anyway, WHY do you think Gray was able to bypass Hakune's hax? I've never really understood it well, it's so vague and poorly explained.
All I know is either it has something to do with Gray's demon powers, or changing nature of MP, or maybe a mix of both.

I never speculated or tried to reason through Mashima's logic.

The only explanation we got is that Gray was somehow able to "change his magic power to halve Hakune's freezing spirit art" - an idea which I heavily criticized myself when the chapter first came out (even as a Gray fan).

But that doesn't mean that just anyone can replicate his feats. Just like how not everyone can tap into the same amount of PoF...

Whatever the explanation means is still unknown and extremely vague to this day... I've been consistent on this.

But that doesn't discredit the fact that Hakune's MP freezing technique is still considered a hax ability - which is exactly what it's supposed to mean.

 

[Seven777]

Hakune's MP freezing ability is near instantaneous. I never said anything about her ability to insta-freeze someone.

The above statement is not even up for debate considering that Natsu was shown explicitly to be unable to use his fire magic.



And I disagree about Gray having one of the slowest attacks in the manga.

Gray's Zeroth Destruction Bow was fast enough to hit Mard Geer, who was flying in mid-air at a very far distance... Not to mention, Mard Geer even noticed the arrow before Gray released it, but still could not dodge it in time:

Spoiler: Mard Geer unable to dodge the speed of Gray's arrow

And keep in mind this was Tartaros Gray. The current version of this spell has obviously improved after the timeskip.




By the way, the reason why "Gray's attacks almost all reached Hakune" was because Hakune was literally just standing still in the same spot with her eyes closed.

Considering that Gray shot his arrows from only a few yards away, that's nothing short of impressive.

Mard Geer couldn't even dodge a weaker version of that arrow from across the battlefield...


And what's stopping Hakune from freezing Laxus' lightning bolt while moving around simultaneously?

She's not rooted to the ground...

Laxus may be fast, but to say that Gray/Hakune are slow is just plain false.

It's not near instaneous either, it has average speed, slightly faster than Gray's attacks, which are for the most part, incredibly slow.

No, Gray's attacks are slow, and no, Zeroth Destruction Bow isn't fast enough to hit Mard Geer. The whole point of that fight was that Gray couldn't hit Mard with his DeS magic, that was the condition for victory and he couldn't do it. He had to specifically play dead AND have Natsu create an opening for him.

Doesn't matter if she stays in the same spot. Most people do when they block attacks, eg Ultear. Eyes closed also doesn't matter. And no, it is short of impressive, far, far short of impressive. In fact it's so ordinary that virtually every other person Gray has ever fought, has done the same thing.

As for what's to stop her from freezing Laxus' lightning bolt and moving simultaneously, for one, she doesn't have the speed feats to freeze it in the first place, two Laxus' AoE is huge so even if she moves she's getting hit anyway, three she can't freeze it in the first place, his nuke is too colossal, it overwhelms her like Ice Knights did, only worse.

And no, to say Gray is slow is just accurate. Gray has decent movement speed, decent CQC, but his ranged attacks are all verifiably slow. It is showcased in almost every fight Gray has. Characters like Rufus, who were significantly weaker than Gray at the time, were still able to exceed his casting speed, and not by a small amount either.
Rufus literally has to wait for Gray to cast his spell first, then Rufus casts his afterwards, and yet Rufus's spell always works first. That's how much slower Gray's attacks are. And it's the same for the rest of his fights. Gray attacks first, someone else then negates it by using their magic second. Gray's attacks are slow, always have been, always will be. It's just a function of his magic.

 

[Hexbend]

It is debatable, but Laxus going into buff scales mode would be comparable to Gray going DeS mode?
Like Gray using "demon powers", Laxus can use "dragon powers" ?

Things are quite vague here since Mashima didn't explain jackshit, and it seemed more like an asspull to get out of a hole that Mashima himself dug.

Both perspectives are valid IMO

I consider Gray's "demon powers" much different to Laxus "dragon powers".

Even then Hakune was still effectively freezing the attacks of Gray the best ice mage with ice resistance with half effective casually. I don't see how Laxus is safe here against Hakune with these rules.

 

[LaGOAT]

The problem is people are stuck on the word “halved” yes it was very vague term but the fact of the matter is when gray increased his mp/went DES mode she couldn’t freeze him. 2. Laxus had DS magic and RL so he coming out of that.
3. She couldn’t freeze gray ice magic with his knights meaning laxus would just send mutiple Nukes and it’s game over. 3.let’s use logic here if hakune is that strong and hax then she is no diffing every1 in this verse but we all no that ain’t true obviously there is a limit to her hax/power and the way is how gray was able to counter it

 

[Nemispelled]

It's not near instaneous either, it has average speed, slightly faster than Gray's attacks, which are for the most part, incredibly slow.

No, Gray's attacks are slow, and no, Zeroth Destruction Bow isn't fast enough to hit Mard Geer. The whole point of that fight was that Gray couldn't hit Mard with his DeS magic, that was the condition for victory and he couldn't do it. He had to specifically play dead AND have Natsu create an opening for him.

Doesn't matter if she stays in the same spot. Most people do when they block attacks, eg Ultear. Eyes closed also doesn't matter. And no, it is short of impressive, far, far short of impressive. In fact it's so ordinary that virtually every other person Gray has ever fought, has done the same thing.

As for what's to stop her from freezing Laxus' lightning bolt and moving simultaneously, for one, she doesn't have the speed feats to freeze it in the first place, two Laxus' AoE is huge so even if she moves she's getting hit anyway, three she can't freeze it in the first place, his nuke is too colossal, it overwhelms her like Ice Knights did, only worse.

And no, to say Gray is slow is just accurate. Gray has decent movement speed, decent CQC, but his ranged attacks are all verifiably slow. It is showcased in almost every fight Gray has. Characters like Rufus, who were significantly weaker than Gray at the time, were still able to exceed his casting speed, and not by a small amount either.
Rufus literally has to wait for Gray to cast his spell first, then Rufus casts his afterwards, and yet Rufus's spell always works first. That's how much slower Gray's attacks are. And it's the same for the rest of his fights. Gray attacks first, someone else then negates it by using their magic second. Gray's attacks are slow, always have been, always will be. It's just a function of his magic.

There's no way that Hakune's MP freezing technique is average speed if Natsu didn't have time to counter or react to it. Even though Natsu's body was only partially frozen, he couldn't tap into his flames at all.

But it doesn't matter whether Natsu's body is completely frozen or not, because without his MP, he is basically a human punching bag.



As for the Mard Geer fight, I interpreted that battle very differently from the way that you just described it.

Gray wasn't just playing dead for an opening shot... he was recovering from Memento Mori, which he absorbed through his DeS magic.

Natsu fighting Mard Geer was to buy time for Gray to recover on the ground, until he had enough energy to get back on his feet and cast a finisher DeS spell.

As for the attack itself, Mard Geer saw Gray's ice arrow from the sky long before Gray even released it. So he was well aware of the attack's trajectory, but he just simply couldn't dodge it through movement speed alone.

Natsu even gave Gray's location away when he shouted "Gray!!!" in front of Mard Geer before Gray could release his arrow. So this was more than just a surprise attack.

Spoiler: Natsu shouting Gray's name in front of Mard Geer

Again, Natsu distracted Mard Geer long enough for Gray to recover from Memento Mori, but the actual speed feat of hitting Mard Geer was Gray's alone.




As for Hakune standing still in the same spot, it does matter quite a bit.

You brought up the fact that Gray's arrow almost reached her, but if she moves away from the attacks while freezing them, then it would be significantly more difficult for the attack to actually hit her.

And this is all assuming that Laxus would even be able to get past her MP freezing ability at the start of the battle...

At best, Laxus will be struggling to produce any amount of lightning (like Natsu did with his fire), which also means that his casting time will be significantly slowed down.

At worst, Laxus will not be able to use his lightning at all... just like the canon feat of Natsu failing to produce flames in the manga.




Gray's attack speed only seems slow throughout the manga because he is usually facing enemies with insane speed or near-instantaneous capabilities.

In reality, his attacks are faster than some of the fastest characters in this manga:

Spoiler: Racer unable to dodge Gray's ice arrow

Racer is literally known for his speed in this manga, and he couldn't even dodge Gray's incoming ice arrow, which was shot at a ridiculously far distance..

Just look at the top-right panel on the first page... that was the distance that the arrow had to travel to hit Racer.

And Hakune froze stronger versions of Gray's ice arrow attacks from only a few yards away in the current arc... something that Mard Geer and Racer failed to do from across the entire battlefield.

You literally have Gray hitting one of the fastest (Racer) and most powerful/formidable (Mard Geer) villains in this manga with his ice arrows. There's no doubt in my mind that Gray's speed feats are extremely difficult to stop/dodge.

 

[Axiomus]

You act like Ice-Make Magic and Devil Slaying Magic are two independent sources of magic power. They are not.

Here's the proof:

Spoiler: DeS Gray using an Ice-Make spell

As you can see, Gray is using his Ice-Make magic while he's in his DeS form. In other words, he is not "switching" or "changing" anything about his magic power here.

Gray simply has access to both types of ice magic simultaneously.



Now go back to the panels that you posted.

What you're showing are instances of Gray transforming into his DeS mode and then reverting back to his base form.

Again, there is no such thing as switching between "Ice-Make" and "Devil Slaying Magic". Gray always has Ice-Make magic, regardless of what form he takes.

And his base form is not a separate type of magic power. It's simply his human form (non-demonized).

So all he is doing is basically entering his DeS mode and going back into his base form. This literally has nothing to do with "switching back and forth between 2 types of magic power" - so your theory isn't even supported by the manga itself.



And no, Natsu's and Gray's situation was not the same during their first encounter with Hakune.

Natsu actually tried to use his fire magic, but failed.

Gray never attempted to counter the freezing spirit art. He simply just stood there and stated that Hakune's temperatures were cold enough to overcome his ice resistance, before eventually getting frozen as well.

Ice Make and Devil Slaying Magic are 2 different types of magic. The fact that Gray can mix the 2 types of magic together doesn't change this. I'm not claiming that Gray no longer has access to ice-make magic when he enters his demonized form. He changes the properties of his magic power when he demonizes. That alone is enough to halve the effectiveness of Hakune's power, as Hakune herself says it does.

Natsu's and Gray's situations are the same in that neither tried to use a different type of magic. Gray's ice resistance is a benefit of his ice-make magic.
Had Gray tried to use devil slaying magic, he would have figured out how to counter Hakune's magic. But he didn't. He tried to rely on the resistance to cold that ice-make granted him.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2021 ---

Would Laxus be able to do that though?
He has lightning DS lacrima in his body. Will he be able to access that, since access to lightning magic is forbidden? And yes, it again depends on whether lightning DS "magic" is simply magic or something else is involved there.
Hmm, maybe he can go buff with scales, that might do the trick?

Dragon Slaying Magic is primarily magic that enchants your body with the properties of a dragon. Under Freed's runes, Laxus would get the physicals of a lightning dragon, but wouldn't be able to produce any lightning.

 

[Seven777]

There's no way that Hakune's MP freezing technique is average speed if Natsu didn't have time to counter or react to it. Even though Natsu's body was only partially frozen, he couldn't tap into his flames at all.

But it doesn't matter whether Natsu's body is completely frozen or not, because without his MP, he is basically a human punching bag.



As for the Mard Geer fight, I interpreted that battle very differently from the way that you just described it.

Gray wasn't just playing dead for an opening shot... he was recovering from Memento Mori, which he absorbed through his DeS magic.

Natsu fighting Mard Geer was to buy time for Gray to recover on the ground, until he had enough energy to get back on his feet and cast a finisher DeS spell.

As for the attack itself, Mard Geer saw Gray's ice arrow from the sky long before Gray even released it. So he was well aware of the attack's trajectory, but he just simply couldn't dodge it through movement speed alone.

Natsu even gave Gray's location away when he shouted "Gray!!!" in front of Mard Geer before Gray could release his arrow. So this was more than just a surprise attack.

Spoiler: Natsu shouting Gray's name in front of Mard Geer

Again, Natsu distracted Mard Geer long enough for Gray to recover from Memento Mori, but the actual speed feat of hitting Mard Geer was Gray's alone.




As for Hakune standing still in the same spot, it does matter quite a bit.

You brought up the fact that Gray's arrow almost reached her, but if she moves away from the attacks while freezing them, then it would be significantly more difficult for the attack to actually hit her.

And this is all assuming that Laxus would even be able to get past her MP freezing ability at the start of the battle...

At best, Laxus will be struggling to produce any amount of lightning (like Natsu did with his fire), which also means that his casting time will be significantly slowed down.

At worst, Laxus will not be able to use his lightning at all... just like the canon feat of Natsu failing to produce flames in the manga.




Gray's attack speed only seems slow throughout the manga because he is usually facing enemies with insane speed or near-instantaneous capabilities.

In reality, his attacks are faster than some of the fastest characters in this manga:

Spoiler: Racer unable to dodge Gray's ice arrow

Racer is literally known for his speed in this manga, and he couldn't even dodge Gray's incoming ice arrow, which was shot at a ridiculously far distance..

Just look at the top-right panel on the first page... that was the distance that the arrow had to travel to hit Racer.

And Hakune froze stronger versions of Gray's ice arrow attacks from only a few yards away in the current arc... something that Mard Geer and Racer failed to do from across the entire battlefield.

You literally have Gray hitting one of the fastest (Racer) and most powerful/formidable (Mard Geer) villains in this manga with his ice arrows. There's no doubt in my mind that Gray's speed feats are extremely difficult to stop/dodge.

What do you mean? Natsu jobs all the time. He couldn't use his flames underwater either.

It's not a speed feat, it's a strategic feat. Mard seeing Zeroth Longbow doesn't mean anything, he was in the midst of grappling and falling with Natsu, and Gray had already fully crafted the bow by the time he saw it, that's half the spell done. If Gray could've hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow by himself, Mard would have been defeated earlier. He needed to play dead, he needed Natsu to go DF. Gray could fire 1000 Zeroth Longbows at Mard Geer, while Mard Geer was distracted fighting Base Natsu, and Gray would still have missed every single one. He was too slow to hit Mard, it was a key factor of the fight.

Laxus doesn't need to get past her MP freezing ability at the start of the battle. He strikes first, because he is far and away the faster of the two. Hakune is dead before she even attempts to freeze his magic.

They're not the fastest characters in the series, not even close, Even Racer only slows other people down, which is specifically why Lyon had to get Gray out of his range, it was a whole plan. Why? Because Gray couldn't hit him. Gray is slow, this is just the reality.

 

[GL_Nova]

It is debatable, but Laxus going into buff scales mode would be comparable to Gray going DeS mode?
Like Gray using "demon powers", Laxus can use "dragon powers" ?

Things are quite vague here since Mashima didn't explain jackshit, and it seemed more like an asspull to get out of a hole that Mashima himself dug.

Both perspectives are valid IMO

Why do people keep refusing to acknowledge that the game ended the debate on Laxus DF?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2021 ---

He was not switching to Base. He only went Base once and that was when he was in the illusion which makes sense since he was unconscious. If all they have to do is change magic then she wouldn't have stated that a wizard stands no chance against her. Gray doesn't simply change his magic, he turned into an actual demon which Laxus doesn't turn into an actual dragon when using RL. Gray used the power of demon and not simply just magic ti save him. Similar thing he did against Mard's Memento Mori.

She didn't even try to fight Gray with freezing bcs Gray could freeze her attacks with his own. So she went into a maker battle which Gray won. Laxus lightning would simply be frozen and it can't really do anything since his lightning isn't freezing her ice.

Laxus didn't even speed blitz Kiria and are we also forgetting Gray was enhanced far past his capabilities while in Elentir? Laxus wouldn't even be able to blitz and oneshot a regular Gray let alone an enhanced Gray. Hakune on the other hand just simply has to freeze his magic power which he has zero clue how to counter. Not even Natsu's fire magic could negate the spell so I highly doubt Laxus can, especially on the first encounter with it. So I don't see how Laxus isn't getting his MP frozen.

How well do you think Grey does against Laxus?

 

[grey matter]

Why do people keep refusing to acknowledge that the game ended the debate on Laxus DF?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2021 ---

How well do you think Grey does against Laxus?

?? which game?

DeS Gray would give Laxus mid diff

 

[GL_Nova]

Laxus electrocuting those bullets was a defensive move. It's no different than Hakune freezing Gray's attacks with her eyes closed while standing still.

As for who is quicker to attack, Hakune has shown to be able to freeze someone's MP within a single panel - that's the fastest timeframe you're gonna get from a manga.


If Hakune is blitzing Laxus back, then he won't even have a chance to summon his lightning bolt because his MP will be frozen completely...

In the unlikely scenario that Laxus is the one doing the blitzing, Hakune will definitely have time to freeze his lightning bolt because she's not distracted by anything.

And the lightning bolt won't explode if it's already frozen before it reaches the ground.

And why would Hakune need a warning to attack???

If anything, she will attack first immediately and render Laxus' MP useless. Without MP, Laxus will essentially become a punching bag.



And no, Natsu is a more direct comparison to Laxus' case because you are saying that Laxus will try to counter Hakune's MP freezing ability.

That's exactly what Natsu tried to do in their initial encounter, but failed.

On the other hand, during Gray's initial encounter with Hakune, he didn't even attempt to counter the freezing spirit art. He simply made an observation that the temperature of her spell was cold enough to overcome his ice resistance, before he was eventually frozen solid.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2021 ---

Except that I never even bought into the fact that simply changing your property or type of magic is the reason for halving Hakune's freezing spirit art...

Like I already said in my post to Axiomus, Gray's base form is not a separate type of magic power. It's simply his human form without any demonization.

Axiomus' theory hinges on the fact that Gray was changing between "Ice-Make" and "Devil Slaying Magic", but that was clearly not the case because Gray always has Ice-Make magic, regardless of what form he takes - so he's not switching or changing anything.

This is proven by the panel where he simultaneously casted "Ice-Make: Ice Giants" while he was in his DeS form.





I never speculated or tried to reason through Mashima's logic.

The only explanation we got is that Gray was somehow able to "change his magic power to halve Hakune's freezing spirit art" - an idea which I heavily criticized myself when the chapter first came out (even as a Gray fan).

But that doesn't mean that just anyone can replicate his feats. Just like how not everyone can tap into the same amount of PoF...

Whatever the explanation means is still unknown and extremely vague to this day... I've been consistent on this.

But that doesn't discredit the fact that Hakune's MP freezing technique is still considered a hax ability - which is exactly what it's supposed to mean.

He didn’t just electrocute bullets my friend, he dropped a massive lightning bolt on Wahl, the bullets are just byproducts or that blow.
https://www.mangasee123.com/read-online/Fairy-Tail-chapter-472-page-5.html
An there is nothing to suggest she can survive such a Nuke, nor freeze it without warning. Laxus neither telegraphs nor yells out every lightning bolt like Grey. An if she wasn’t able to freeze Grey’s golems, she won’t be able to freeze any of Laxus actual spoken spell either. His Alvarez Nuke still dwarfs everything she’s demonstrated.

All of Laxus lightning bolts take only panels, and he has shown to be able to blitz that speed as well. Hakune doesn’t have anything that suggests she’s faster. An her freezing effect is show to More than a single panel in your own posts.

I’m not sure how you try and equate going from human base magic to enhanced magical creature magic is closer to human base to magic creature as opposed to magic creature to hybrid magic creature. I’m not sure why not, but that’s cool. Laxus undergoes the exact same transformation of magic Grey does when He activates his slayer magic. From human magic, to magic enhanced to transform them to a magical creature. An it fits the named criteria as it is, and seeing as how the arc is over, shall remain.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2021 ---

?? which game?

DeS Gray would give Laxus mid diff

The FT game confirms that form is DF.

An Grey had a high diff fight against a tired Mira with his DeS advantage. It’s a no on that one buddy.

 

[Nemispelled]

Ice Make and Devil Slaying Magic are 2 different types of magic. The fact that Gray can mix the 2 types of magic together doesn't change this. I'm not claiming that Gray no longer has access to ice-make magic when he enters his demonized form. He changes the properties of his magic power when he demonizes. That alone is enough to halve the effectiveness of Hakune's power, as Hakune herself says it does.

Natsu's and Gray's situations are the same in that neither tried to use a different type of magic. Gray's ice resistance is a benefit of his ice-make magic.
Had Gray tried to use devil slaying magic, he would have figured out how to counter Hakune's magic. But he didn't. He tried to rely on the resistance to cold that ice-make granted him.

Ice-Make and Devil Slaying Magic are 2 different types of magic, but they are not independent sources of magic power. They are both still derived from the same MP.

So Gray is not switching anything about his MP by entering his demonized form. He still retains the same properties of his Ice-Make Magic (can cast Ice-Make spells while he is in DeS form), but is also able to use his Devil Slaying Ice/Spells as an added benefit.

In your panels, Gray was simply transforming/reverting between his DeS mode and base form. The properties of his magic power is still the same (ethernano).

Hakune only says "changing magic power halves her freezing spirit art", but never mentions anything about Gray changing his properties from base to DeS.



Yes, neither of them tried to use a different type of magic.

But Natsu tried and failed to produce his flames, which means that his MP was completely frozen.

Gray didn't attempt to tap into his ice magic - he only made observations about his ice resistance before eventually freezing as well.

 

[grey matter]

The FT game confirms that form is DF.

An Grey had a high diff fight against a tired Mira with his DeS advantage. It’s a no on that one buddy.

Meh. They would've said if it was in the manga itself.
It's the same stuff when Cobra activates his lacrima, getting scales and all

He mid-high diff'd Mira + Elfman. He had no advantage, or else it's a one shot for Mira.
But maybe you're right, it's probably low-mid for Gray

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2021 ---

Dragon Slaying Magic is primarily magic that enchants your body with the properties of a dragon. Under Freed's runes, Laxus would get the physicals of a lightning dragon, but wouldn't be able to produce any lightning.

You're probably right here.

At least when it comes to 2nd gen DS, I think they can do what Gray did. Don't think Natsu or any natural DS can replicate it though.

Also, what do you think about the claim that Laxus getting buff with scales against Natsu/Gajeel was his dragon force?

 

[Nemispelled]

What do you mean? Natsu jobs all the time. He couldn't use his flames underwater either.

It's not a speed feat, it's a strategic feat. Mard seeing Zeroth Longbow doesn't mean anything, he was in the midst of grappling and falling with Natsu, and Gray had already fully crafted the bow by the time he saw it, that's half the spell done. If Gray could've hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow by himself, Mard would have been defeated earlier. He needed to play dead, he needed Natsu to go DF. Gray could fire 1000 Zeroth Longbows at Mard Geer, while Mard Geer was distracted fighting Base Natsu, and Gray would still have missed every single one. He was too slow to hit Mard, it was a key factor of the fight.

Laxus doesn't need to get past her MP freezing ability at the start of the battle. He strikes first, because he is far and away the faster of the two. Hakune is dead before she even attempts to freeze his magic.

They're not the fastest characters in the series, not even close, Even Racer only slows other people down, which is specifically why Lyon had to get Gray out of his range, it was a whole plan. Why? Because Gray couldn't hit him. Gray is slow, this is just the reality.

This isn't as simple as Natsu jobbing. Based on what the manga showed, Natsu did not have a counter to Hakune's MP freezing ability.

If it was that easy to counter Hakune's hax, Natsu surely would have pulled it off considering that he has performed numerous near-impossible feats in the past.



As for Mard Geer, he had plenty of time to dodge the arrow. Natsu was already out of power, so there was no other threat to Mard Geer except for Gray's incoming attack.

Gray crafting his bow is just the casting time of the spell. But the velocity of the arrow hitting Mard Geer is a feat of attack speed.

And it's not like Gray was waiting for an opportunity to play dead since he didn't even know about Memento Mori in the first place and had no idea about its effects.

If Gray needed to play dead, he would have done that long before Memento Mori was casted instead of taking the risk and waiting.



And I personally think that Hakune's MP freezing technique is faster than Laxus attacking simply because she only needs to freeze what is already inside Laxus' body.

On the contrary, Laxus has to actually physically hit her with an attack in the time that it takes for her to merely lift her hand...



As for Racer, Gray's ice arrow had to cover an incredibly far distance in order to hit him - which is how fast the attack normally is since it was shot from outside the radius of Racer's magic.

However, Gray also has feats of unleashing fast attacks, even when he was inside the radius of Racer's magic:

Spoiler: Gray stopping Racer in his tracks

Sure, Racer is the one slowing Gray down, but speed is relative.

From Gray's perspective, Racer is moving at a ridiculously fast speed, since his sensation of time has been slowed down.

In order for Gray to hit him with Ice-Make: Rampart, his spell must've been fast enough for Racer to be unable to dodge it.

While Racer is definitely not the fastest character, he was surely one of the fastest pre-timeskip (at least, inside the radius of his own magic).

 

[Seven777]

This isn't as simple as Natsu jobbing. Based on what the manga showed, Natsu did not have a counter to Hakune's MP freezing ability.

If it was that easy to counter Hakune's hax, Natsu surely would have pulled it off considering that he has performed numerous near-impossible feats in the past.



As for Mard Geer, he had plenty of time to dodge the arrow. Natsu was already out of power, so there was no other threat to Mard Geer except for Gray's incoming attack.

Gray crafting his bow is just the casting time of the spell. But the velocity of the arrow hitting Mard Geer is a feat of attack speed.

And it's not like Gray was waiting for an opportunity to play dead since he didn't even know about Memento Mori in the first place and had no idea about its effects.

If Gray needed to play dead, he would have done that long before Memento Mori was casted instead of taking the risk and waiting.



And I personally think that Hakune's MP freezing technique is faster than Laxus attacking simply because she only needs to freeze what is already inside Laxus' body.

On the contrary, Laxus has to actually physically hit her with an attack in the time that it takes for her to merely lift her hand...



As for Racer, Gray's ice arrow had to cover an incredibly far distance in order to hit him - which is how fast the attack normally is since it was shot from outside the radius of Racer's magic.

However, Gray also has feats of unleashing fast attacks, even when he was inside the radius of Racer's magic:

Spoiler: Gray stopping Racer in his tracks

Sure, Racer is the one slowing Gray down, but speed is relative.

From Gray's perspective, Racer is moving at a ridiculously fast speed, since his sensation of time has been slowed down.

In order for Gray to hit him with Ice-Make: Rampart, his spell must've been fast enough for Racer to be unable dodge it.

While Racer is definitely not the fastest pre-timeskip, he was surely one of the fastest characters (at least, inside the radius of his own magic).

It's not that Natsu didn't have a counter, it's that he never attempted to counter it. Gray had a counter, didn't attempt to counter it. If Gray went all out instead of jobbing and just used DeS magic when things got tough, he would have countered it accidentally. Both Natsu and Gray treated Hakune like a joke and they paid for it.

Then that just makes Gray lucky, rather than smart, which only makes him look weaker.
Let me put this simply, Gray is not fast enough to hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow by himself, it's simply not possible for him, this is shown in the manga. It's not even possible for him to do it with Natsu backing him up. He needs the full power of DF Natsu on his side to hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow, that's how much faster Mard Geer is.

Laxus can drop a nuke with just a lift of his hand too. He's massively faster than Hakune, so he lifts his hand first. Even if she manages to start freezing him before the nuke lands, the nuke is already launched, she dies before Laxus finishes getting frozen. That said, Laxus is at a level where he could kill her before she could even react.

Yep, but without Racer's slow magic it's not an impressive feat of speed. As for Rampart, Racer can't slow spells down, he can only slow Gray. Gray stopped him with Rampart because Racer was chasing after Natsu and couldn't react to what Gray was doing. When Racer actually faced Gray himself, Gray was helpless.

 

[Nemispelled]

He didn’t just electrocute bullets my friend, he dropped a massive lightning bolt on Wahl, the bullets are just byproducts or that blow.
https://www.mangasee123.com/read-online/Fairy-Tail-chapter-472-page-5.html
An there is nothing to suggest she can survive such a Nuke, nor freeze it without warning. Laxus neither telegraphs nor yells out every lightning bolt like Grey. An if she wasn’t able to freeze Grey’s golems, she won’t be able to freeze any of Laxus actual spoken spell either. His Alvarez Nuke still dwarfs everything she’s demonstrated.

All of Laxus lightning bolts take only panels, and he has shown to be able to blitz that speed as well. Hakune doesn’t have anything that suggests she’s faster. An her freezing effect is show to More than a single panel in your own posts.

I’m not sure how you try and equate going from human base magic to enhanced magical creature magic is closer to human base to magic creature as opposed to magic creature to hybrid magic creature. I’m not sure why not, but that’s cool. Laxus undergoes the exact same transformation of magic Grey does when He activates his slayer magic. From human magic, to magic enhanced to transform them to a magical creature. An it fits the named criteria as it is, and seeing as how the arc is over, shall remain.

Except that Hakune doesn't need to telegraph or do anything to freeze attacks. She can freeze spells while standing still with her eyes closed.

And Gray's Zeroth Destruction Bow is definitely stronger than Laxus' unnamed lightning bolt... so there's nothing stopping Hakune from freezing it as well.

As for Laxus' actual spoken spells, they will be useless because their casting times are too long. In that amount of time, Hakune would have already frozen Laxus' MP.



And actually, Hakune freezing a person's MP only takes a single panel.

Freezing them into solid ice is what actually takes several panels.


As for Laxus' DS transformations, they are not even similar to Gray's DeS form in terms of properties.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2021 ---

It's not that Natsu didn't have a counter, it's that he never attempted to counter it. Gray had a counter, didn't attempt to counter it. If Gray went all out instead of jobbing and just used DeS magic when things got tough, he would have countered it accidentally. Both Natsu and Gray treated Hakune like a joke and they paid for it.

Then that just makes Gray lucky, rather than smart, which only makes him look weaker.
Let me put this simply, Gray is not fast enough to hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow by himself, it's simply not possible for him, this is shown in the manga. It's not even possible for him to do it with Natsu backing him up. He needs the full power of DF Natsu on his side to hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow, that's how much faster Mard Geer is.

Laxus can drop a nuke with just a lift of his hand too. He's massively faster than Hakune, so he lifts his hand first. Even if she manages to start freezing him before the nuke lands, the nuke is already launched, she dies before Laxus finishes getting frozen. That said, Laxus is at a level where he could kill her before she could even react.

Yep, but without Racer's slow magic it's not an impressive feat of speed. As for Rampart, Racer can't slow spells down, he can only slow Gray. Gray stopped him with Rampart because Racer was chasing after Natsu and couldn't react to what Gray was doing. When Racer actually faced Gray himself, Gray was helpless.

It's quite convenient to say that Natsu had a counter, but just didn't attempt to use it...

By that logic, we can say that Natsu could have tanked Suzaku's blade, but just never tried to... The fact is, we clearly saw Suzaku oneshot Natsu, so why speculate any further?



This has nothing to do with luck vs. intelligence. Gray simply wasn't waiting for an opportunity to play dead, especially not against an unpredictable spell like Memento Mori.

The manga never showed that Gray was too slow to hit Mard Geer with Zeroth Destruction Bow by himself. Unless you can show me a panel where Gray shot the arrow and Mard Geer dodged it, then that statement is not proven.

Besides, Gray can use ice clones to distract Mard Geer. <-- Equivalent of saying: "Natsu had a counter, but just never attempted it."



Even if the nuke is already launched, Hakune can just freeze it.

Meanwhile, Laxus will have his MP frozen and eventually freeze completely.



How is Gray's ice arrow not an impressive feat? Not many characters in FT can shoot a spell from that far of a distance and still be able to hit their opponent.

As for Rampart, you just admitted that "Racer can't slow spells down".

That means Ice-Make: Rampart was as fast as it looked in the panel, which was able to stop Racer while he was incredibly fast inside the radius of his own magic - this is direct proof of the speed of Gray's spells.

I'm not here to prove that Gray could beat Racer in that battle.

But the fact that he could block Racer's speed definitely goes to show that his spells are extremely fast.

 

[Seven777]

It's quite convenient to say that Natsu had a counter, but just didn't attempt to use it...

By that logic, we can say that Natsu could have tanked Suzaku's blade, but just never tried to... The fact is, we clearly saw Suzaku oneshot Natsu, so why speculate any further?



This has nothing to do with luck vs. intelligence. Gray simply wasn't waiting for an opportunity to play dead, especially not against an unpredictable spell like Memento Mori.

The manga never showed that Gray was too slow to hit Mard Geer with Zeroth Destruction Bow by himself. Unless you can show me a panel where Gray shot the arrow and Mard Geer dodged it, then that statement is not proven.

Besides, Gray can use ice clones to distract Mard Geer. <-- Equivalent of saying: "Natsu had a counter, but just never attempted it."



Even if the nuke is already launched, Hakune can just freeze it.

Meanwhile, Laxus will have his MP frozen and eventually freeze completely.



How is Gray's ice arrow not an impressive feat? Not many characters in FT can shoot a spell from that far of a distance and still be able to hit their opponent.

As for Rampart, you just admitted that "Racer can't slow spells down".

That means Ice-Make: Rampart was as fast as it looked in the panel, which was able to stop Racer while he was incredibly fast inside the radius of his own magic - this is direct proof of the speed of Gray's spells.

I'm not here to prove that Gray could beat Racer in that battle.

But the fact that he could block Racer's speed definitely goes to show that his spells are extremely fast.

No more convenient than Gray having a confirmed counter and just not using it. As for Suzaku, because he had later feats showing his godliness, while Hakune had later feats showing how mediocre she was(oneshottable by Gray).

No, it's completely different. Gray was shown that he could solo Hakune by going all out. He was never shown capable of soloing Mard Geer, and to suggest that he could is ludicrous. Also, by default Gray can't hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow by himself, he doesn't have the feats for it. He needed DF Natsu and suprise, because that's what actually happened.

No, she can't. Laxus' nuke is way too big for her to freeze, she doesn't have feats for freezing something on that scale or on that level of power. She's also not freezing Laxus' nuke and his body at the same time, she has no feats for freezing both attacks and bodies. If she's attempting to freeze Laxus's body, then she's getting hit by the nuke, if she's trying to freeze the nuke, then she's not freezing Laxus' body. That said, she doesn't have the speed feats to freeze either, Laxus kills her before she can even attempt to freeze anything, because he's massively faster than she is. The only chance she has at winning, is if Laxus goes easy on her, and even then, Laxus is still probably going to win, because casual Laxus is still a spriggan killer

So? Ice Make Rampart not being able to be slowed, means that it's a poor speed feat, because Racer is only fast when compared to things he has slowed down.

Good, because you can't. Racer was trashing him. And no it doesn't show his spells are fast, like I already told you, they're slow, incredibly slow. So slow that Rufus can wait for Gray to cast his spell first, and then cast his spells second even faster. Landing a single hit on Racer, while missing every other, while he wasn't even fighting Gray, but going after Natsu, isn't impressive, it's mediocre.

 

[LaGOAT]

@Nemispelled ur a whole argument is heavily rely on natsu jobbing. Natsu was just trying to get out in base form key word base form and we know that beating base natsu isn’t that much a feat. So hakune freezing base natsu and gray is an avg feat if natsu wasn’t jabbing and went LFD/FDKM he would have broken out of it too just like gray in DES