Canon Shanks vs Mihawk

[bittman]

Many assumed Whitebeard was all strength and Haki until he busted out the devil fruit. What happens when Shanks busts out his? Mihawk clearly doesnt have one since he is all slash and hack but Shanks can amp himself up with Haki since he tied Whitebeard in strength when they clashed. Whitebeard was using two arms and shanks was just using one. Considering Whitebeard has stopped entire ships physically being held back by Shanks is impressive for Shanks especially with one arm. Thus I still say Shanks can stomp Mihawk even with one arm. There just has to be a reason why he is a Yonkou besides being an inferior swordsman to Mihawk. There is a reason why one is a Yonkou and the other is just a Shichibukai.

Few things in there I saw as "wrong" (personal opinion, don't take it harshly):

1) Firstly, I'd like to thank you for the line "What happens when Shanks busts out his?" As you said, people assumed that the 2 pages of WB action we saw were a true indication of his power. We've seen probably 3 pages of Shanks, impossible to simply say "well he has haki, uses swords and was once seen floating on water so he can't have a DF!"

2) "Mihawk clearly doesn't have one-" really? We've seen a ton of close ups on his eyes, his slashes cut through a frozen wave and you think that he was just born like that? Though we've seen Mihawk in action, have you seen him try? (will expand on that in a tick)

3) The clash between WB and Shanks shouldn't really be used for evidence other than to point out that they are the "same level" of pirate, which we had confirmed chapters later with the Yonkou title. To me it looked like one of those handshakes where you try to break the other persons hand because you don't like them, but you don't go so far as to injure them.

4) "There is a reason why one is a Yonkou and the other is just a Shichibukai." - The old debate: Shichibukai <<<<<< Yonkou. I'm yet to see any evidence of this other than Moria losing to Kaidou (or fighting evenly depending on who you listen to). Mihawk is a Shichibukai, and thus it must mean the marines must have made him their bitch? Shanks didn't go with the marines as a pirate, thus it must mean he alone is worth about 6 Shichibukai, 1 admiral and 3 million Choppers.

I've never understood this comparison when we have seen such broken Shichibukai as Doflamingo and Kuma.

So in the end, I wanted just to wrap up by saying I voted for Mihawk. I won't deny, what we have seen from Mihawk has not been very impressive. The world's greatest swordsman has, in the WB War arc, been blocked by Joz, Crocodile, Buggy, Vista and almost seemed to be "just" above Luffy's level (despite him being already injured and tired).

But everytime I look at Mihawk, I see the same bland expression and I can't help but feel he's just flat out not trying. Like he's always looking at someone who's come to fight him and is "testing" them out for kicks. Every battle he's like "Oh hey its you" and then doesn't really do anything much more than exchange some blows or strike with some glancing shot.

I've ranked Mihawk based on the expression "I no longer have any interest fighting with you" @ Shanks plus the title Mihawk holds. I don't think we've seen as much of Mihawk as everyone believes, and we have definitely seen very little/nothing of Shanks minus some Haki (something I haven't seen any evidence Mihawk doesn't have. Have we seen a logia tank his slashes yet?).

Mind you, I could be off with all this. Like I said, 3 pages of Shanks action. I've seen more of Mr 9.

 

[Primecut]

Few things in there I saw as "wrong" (personal opinion, don't take it harshly):

1) Firstly, I'd like to thank you for the line "What happens when Shanks busts out his?" As you said, people assumed that the 2 pages of WB action we saw were a true indication of his power. We've seen probably 3 pages of Shanks, impossible to simply say "well he has haki, uses swords and was once seen floating on water so he can't have a DF!"

2) "Mihawk clearly doesn't have one-" really? We've seen a ton of close ups on his eyes, his slashes cut through a frozen wave and you think that he was just born like that? Though we've seen Mihawk in action, have you seen him try? (will expand on that in a tick)

3) The clash between WB and Shanks shouldn't really be used for evidence other than to point out that they are the "same level" of pirate, which we had confirmed chapters later with the Yonkou title. To me it looked like one of those handshakes where you try to break the other persons hand because you don't like them, but you don't go so far as to injure them.

4) "There is a reason why one is a Yonkou and the other is just a Shichibukai." - The old debate: Shichibukai <<<<<< Yonkou. I'm yet to see any evidence of this other than Moria losing to Kaidou (or fighting evenly depending on who you listen to). Mihawk is a Shichibukai, and thus it must mean the marines must have made him their bitch? Shanks didn't go with the marines as a pirate, thus it must mean he alone is worth about 6 Shichibukai, 1 admiral and 3 million Choppers.

I've never understood this comparison when we have seen such broken Shichibukai as Doflamingo and Kuma.

So in the end, I wanted just to wrap up by saying I voted for Mihawk. I won't deny, what we have seen from Mihawk has not been very impressive. The world's greatest swordsman has, in the WB War arc, been blocked by Joz, Crocodile, Buggy, Vista and almost seemed to be "just" above Luffy's level (despite him being already injured and tired).

But everytime I look at Mihawk, I see the same bland expression and I can't help but feel he's just flat out not trying. Like he's always looking at someone who's come to fight him and is "testing" them out for kicks. Every battle he's like "Oh hey its you" and then doesn't really do anything much more than exchange some blows or strike with some glancing shot.

I've ranked Mihawk based on the expression "I no longer have any interest fighting with you" @ Shanks plus the title Mihawk holds. I don't think we've seen as much of Mihawk as everyone believes, and we have definitely seen very little/nothing of Shanks minus some Haki (something I haven't seen any evidence Mihawk doesn't have. Have we seen a logia tank his slashes yet?).

Mind you, I could be off with all this. Like I said, 3 pages of Shanks action. I've seen more of Mr 9.

Only thing wrong here is how you admit that Mihawk has not been that impressive then voting for him anyway over an end game player like Shanks. The fact is that Shanks was even with Whitebeard, the sky split, and it wasnt just a cosmetic effect as the crew made comments about the level of power to split the sky. That and the Haki are his best feats and the fact his feat is against the Strongest Man (which is far more powerful than "strongest swordsman" given how many non-swordsmen there are in OP) is enough for most folks.

Now that we have seen what makes Whitebeard the strongest man we can safely conclude that Mihawk certainly isnt Whitebeard level based on his feats and his self-dialogue admits there is a gap between them. He'll be a good opponent for Zoro but he won't ever be a top tier like Shanks and Whitebeard.

BTW if you disagree that Shanks is Whitebeard level then it'll be hard to disprove since his only feat against him is blocking WB's two handed bisento with only one arm and splitting the sky.

Heh, you need proof that Yonkou > Shichibukai? Read a couple chapters with Whitebeard in them or go back and watch Luffy stomp some Shichibukais then try to imagine Luffy beating someone like Whitebeard or Shanks. Yeah, not happening atm. How about Jinbei being shichibukai level but being held off by Akainu? Then big bad Whitebeard coming in and stomping Akainu into the ground perhaps permanently hopefully.

 

[THM Nindo]

Yonkou are definitely the best amongst the three top class...

The reason is simple... they manage to keep the balance with this :

4 Yonkou vs 7 Shichibukai + 3 Admiral + Sengoku / Garp
(So, it balanced out with 4 vs 12)

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the Yonkou are stronger.
And this just help demontring that Shanks is better.

 

[bittman]

So you're basically doing this:

WB = world's strongest man
Shanks = Runner up
Yonkou #3 = Third Place
Yonkou #4 = Fourth Place
Everyone else = Fifth Place

You cannot just class them like that. Joz would own Crocodile, but was unable to even lift a finger in front of Doflamingo. Shichibukai are basically everything from "rookie" level to "Yonkou" level. People like Doflamingo, Kuma and Mihawk are only Shichibukai to exploit their positions in some way, not because they all read between 8000 and 9000 on Vegeta's Scouter.

Arguably, Luffy defeated the two weakest Shichibukai. Shichibukai who did not dwell in the New World. Luffy would not curbstomp any of the other 5 (or 6 if you include BB) Shichibukai. In fact, all the remaining Shichibukai (with a possible exception of Hancock) would curbstomp Luffy.

Whitebeard is first place...sort of. I still do think Akainu > WB (or at least equal), WB just got off the more definitive shot amongst all the attacks they threw at each other over the course of this war. Even then the two most damaging attacks WB has suffered have been from Akainu.

By the way, the balance is:
Yonkou + all pirates with a live bounty in the pirate era + Revolutionary Army vs 3 Admirals + Marine Force + (sometimes) Shichibukai.

Strange how you see Shanks an "end-gamer" but not Mihawk. I never got the impression Zoro was gonna be the strongest swordsman 2 islands into the New World. If the top of Zoro's mountain is Mihawk, and the top of Luffy's is Shanks, the peaks of these mountains should not be kilometres apart given the amount of comparisons to strength Oda keeps doing with them both.

In retrospect, if there was a "tie" button on this poll I would have hit that.

 

[BlackHair]

4 Yonkou vs 7 Shichibukai + 3 Admiral + Sengoku / Garp(So, it balanced out with 4 vs 12)

Going by your baseless formula each Yonko fights alone (without crew) AND together. Sorry, but ur small calculation is messed up in every way.

What happens when Shanks busts out his?

We have no rason to believe that Shanks is using a DF.

There just has to be a reason why he is a Yonkou besides being an inferior swordsman to Mihawk. There is a reason why one is a Yonkou and the other is just a Shichibukai.

The reason is simple. The one is travelling solely alone on a coffin while the other one is leading a freaking army. Yonko description! (These four pirates that rule the end of the GL like kings would)

I don't get why ppl still put Shanks above Mwk based on the title Yonko. This discussion is about a 1vs1 fair fight between Shanks and Mwk not the Red-Hair Pirates vs Mihawk.

 

[Immo]

In my opinion Mihawn is better swordman but Shanks is overall better fighter.

 

[ScratchmenApoo]

Shanks only has 1 arm. Theoretically, all his power and swordsmanship goes into 1 arm over the last 10 years whereas Mihawk trains both arms equally. So I think in sheer strength, Shanks wins, but in swordsmanship techniques Mihawk prevails. In an overall fight, I would bet my money on Shanks.

 

[Primecut]

Going by your baseless formula each Yonko fights alone (without crew) AND together. Sorry, but ur small calculation is messed up in every way.

We have no rason to believe that Shanks is using a DF.

The reason is simple. The one is travelling solely alone on a coffin while the other one is leading a freaking army. Yonko description! (These four pirates that rule the end of the GL like kings would)

I don't get why ppl still put Shanks above Mwk based on the title Yonko. This discussion is about a 1vs1 fair fight between Shanks and Mwk not the Red-Hair Pirates vs Mihawk.

Yonkou are bigger and better from what I've seen. I've seen Yonkou beat Shichibukai but not the other way around. I've seen Shichibukai lose or tie to people beneath Yonkou level.

1. Fact: Kaidou has beaten Moria.

2. Fact: Whitebeard has beaten Crocodile in the past. It seems like it was a pretty bad beating too because Crocodile is still bitter about it and wants revenge. He also said that Whitebeard was stronger when he beat him which makes the case even more grim for Yonkou > Shichibukai given Whitebeard's current feats in his "sick" state.

3. Fact: Ace has tied Jinbei (Shichibukai level) in the past. Yet Ace is beneath Yonkou level by a large margin.

4. Fact: Luffy has beaten Shichibukai and is below yonkou level by a large margin.

5. Fact: Shichibukai including Mihawk were being held off by Whitebeard's lower captains aka people below Yonkou level.


Whitebeard, a yonkou, has also proven to be able to offensively push the marines/shichibukai back by himself while they all gasp in awe at how powerful he is. Sengoku is clearly one of the strongest and has the Shichibukai under his thumb but was crapping his pants every few panels when Whitebeard was on the move.

Being a yonkou is more than a title, its the highest level pirate in One Piece short of Pirate King. In power, the food chain goes like this: Yonkou > Admiral > Shichibukai. Garp and Sengoku are likely above Shichibukai as well.

Ya know something, Crocodile was going head to head with other Shichibukai such as Mihawk and Don Flamingo and we all know that Croc got beat by Whitebeard and even Luffy in the past. Jinbei a former shichibukai admitted he could only hold off Akainu for a few seconds, but Whitebeard put Akainu down for the count in a few seconds (even though Whitebeard has been almost dead for chapters now). That clearly puts these guys a notch below the yonkous.

Heh, if Shichibukai are as strong as a yonkou then someone tell me which Shichibukai in particular is at Whitebeard's level? I'd like to know if we are reading the same manga here...

 

[BlackHair]

There is no such thing as a Shichibukai level! Plz reread Bittman's post.

The 7 Gods varies in battle-strength as a individual from mid-tier level to high-tier level. Corcodile clearly mid-tier level, while guys such as Flamingo and Mihawk seems to be hight tier level.

Seriously read your own post, u put Mihawk equal to Corcodile and Shanks equal to Whitebeard. Without any basics for that beside the 1 sec clash we have seen in this chaotic battle. Let me take apart your so called facts:

Spoiler: Facts :P

1. Fact: Kaidou has beaten Moria.

Off panel battle, we don't know the circumstances around that fight. Also by ur logic the Strawhats who beat Moria are on Yonko level. To remind you, Moria claimed that if he had Oz back then in his fight with Kaido, he would have won. So using this senseless logic, the Strawhats who beat Moria with Oz are stronger than the pirate group lead by Kaido. I hope you understand how screwed up ur fact is.

2. Fact: Whitebeard has beaten Crocodile in the past. It seems like it was a pretty bad beating too because Crocodile is still bitter about it and wants revenge. He also said that Whitebeard was stronger when he beat him which makes the case even more grim for Yonkou > Shichibukai given Whitebeard's current feats in his "sick" state.

Again offpanel! Facts are: Whitebeard (back then and even now I believe) is stronger than Shanks and Mihawk is stronger than Crocodile. Ur whole fact has nothing to do with Shanks vs Mihawk.

4. Fact: Luffy has beaten Shichibukai and is below yonkou level by a large margin.

Going by your fact 1, Luffy is already high tier level (Yonko/Admiral) lol

3. Fact: Ace has tied Jinbei (Shichibukai level) in the past. Yet Ace is beneath Yonkou level by a large margin.

5. Fact: Shichibukai including Mihawk were being held off by Whitebeard's lower captains aka people below Yonkou level.

I can only repeat myself, don't put each individual in one basket. WB is called the most powerfullest and strongest man for a reason. That guy, even if he is a Yonko, is on a whole different level all together. Shanks has yet to archive those titles, while Mihawk has a title on his own. Your five facts had nothing to do with the Mihawk vs Shanks fight.

Mihawk is carrying the title strongest swordsman and he is the final goal of Zoro. Zoro will beat him near the end of OP. Since OP is a shounen manga and since in those usually the last opponents tend to be the strongest, we have every right to assume that Mihawk, who is the last opponent of one of our protagonist, is extremely strong. Yet you are putting him equal to Crocodile and Moria, who were beaten even before the NW.

Now about the title Yonko: According to Garps explanation they reign over the latter half of the Grandline, like a emperor would do. They are called Yonko because they lead a army. WB attacked the MHQ with his own pirate crew and with his alliance force. Calling these four the powerfullest pirate means that their influence and power is similar to actual governments. That is due to their mighty fore they are leading. Having that in mind, let me ask you a question: Would have WB survived this long all alone on this battlefield? Without his commanders, without his forces? The answer is a simple No! Yonko's/pirate crews are fighting together as a army.

Anyway Shanks is a swordsman, yet Mihawk is called the strongest. Guess who is superior in a fair 1vs1 fight.

I'd like to know if we are reading the same manga here...

That's what Im asking after reading your post.

 

[bittman]

Blackhair covered a lot of what I would have said (well I wouldn't have, almost a tl;dr post until my name popped up hah!). But lemme break down somethings he didn't touch:

Whitebeard, a yonkou, has also proven to be able to offensively push the marines/shichibukai back by himself while they all gasp in awe at how powerful he is. Sengoku is clearly one of the strongest and has the Shichibukai under his thumb but was crapping his pants every few panels when Whitebeard was on the move.

Whitebeard = Strongest man in the world + insanely broken Devil Fruit + 1600 crew + 43 new world allies. Sengoku has crapped his pants at every little thing since the first chapter, and I haven't seen a Shichibukai move under a command yet. Most of them are just killing time except Hancock really.

Being a yonkou is more than a title, its the highest level pirate in One Piece short of Pirate King. In power, the food chain goes like this: Yonkou > Admiral > Shichibukai. Garp and Sengoku are likely above Shichibukai as well.

Incorrect, Yonkous are the highest level of FREE pirate. Allying yourself with the World Government doesn't automatically make you a weakling. And the admirals are all very high tier, probably flat out equal to any of the Yonkous in a 1v1 match. From watching the admirals fight WB, I haven't seen any evidence that he was vastly superior to any of them...unless...

Ya know something, Crocodile was going head to head with other Shichibukai such as Mihawk and Don Flamingo and we all know that Croc got beat by Whitebeard and even Luffy in the past. Jinbei a former shichibukai admitted he could only hold off Akainu for a few seconds, but Whitebeard put Akainu down for the count in a few seconds (even though Whitebeard has been almost dead for chapters now). That clearly puts these guys a notch below the yonkous.

What Whitebeard did, was get off two definitive shots. Akainu got off two half-definitive shots. They both have DF's which are automatically a deal breaker upon being hit. A half-dead WB got a sneak attack on Akainu's spine, and even then lost half a face before sending him into a chasm.

And you keep talking about Croc and Jimbei. Croc has basically been shown as the weakest of the Shichibukai. Jimbei is mid-tier at best. And your definition of head-to-head with Croc is interesting. Apparantly striking with his hook is head-to-head, even though we see no aftermath. Doflamingo and Mihawk never attacked Croc, there's no real comparison to be made.

Heh, if Shichibukai are as strong as a yonkou then someone tell me which Shichibukai in particular is at Whitebeard's level? I'd like to know if we are reading the same manga here...

Shichibukai at WB level = no-one.
People in the entire series of One Piece at WB level = possibly Akainu and Garp.
Yonkou at WB level = only WB.

But if I had to have a stand-out Shichibukais, they would probably be Doflamingo. Was feared of by a WB division commander, halted the advance of (arguably) the strongest WB division commander and has yet to show any sign of a struggle. Cuts, controls and dodges with barely any noticable motion or effort. I'd also say Mihawk and Kuma, but since they haven't shown themselves destroying WB personally, you wouldn't take my word on them.

There is no such thing as a Shichibukai level! Plz reread Bittman's post.

Cheers, these are basically the words that need to be said. There are no "levels" in One Piece.

Because the alternative would look something like this:

• All Supernovas can beat Croc, Moria, Lucchi and Enel
• All Yonkou can defeat Akainu if they are willing to lose half a face
• All Shichibukai should lose (or at least come close to losing) against Luffy since he's beaten two.
• And then on the flip side, all Shichibukai can beat Luffy, because Kuma beat him.
• All Vice Admirals are as strong as Garp
• Since Croc is also a Silver Medallist, they would all lose to Luffy too

etcetera

Feels like I'm speaking to a brick wall at times. Guess I'll just have to wait another few hundred chapters for a Shichibukai to actually shine. It's hard to argue when the latest arc has seen nothing but the glorification of one Yonkou with a ridiculous moustache and the Shichibukai sharing in some cameos here and there.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

A part of your post BlackHair caught my eye. It may be because I see some bad faith in it and I have to point it out. This is not linked to my opinion about the level of Yonkou and Shichibukai (I tend to agree with what bittman said).
Anyway, what Primecut said in a post was true and I must defend it after your answer to it.

1. Fact: Kaidou has beaten Moria.

Off panel battle, we don't know the circumstances around that fight. Also by ur logic the Strawhats who beat Moria are on Yonko level. To remind you, Moria claimed that if he had Oz back then in his fight with Kaido, he would have won. So using this senseless logic, the Strawhats who beat Moria with Oz are stronger than the pirate group lead by Kaido. I hope you understand how screwed up ur fact is.

How screwed up his fact is ? Actually, Kaidou did beat Moria.
I don't see where he or his logic (not to say there is not personal opinion in a fact) meant that the SHs are better than Kaidou and his crew.

2. Fact: Whitebeard has beaten Crocodile in the past. It seems like it was a pretty bad beating too because Crocodile is still bitter about it and wants revenge. He also said that Whitebeard was stronger when he beat him which makes the case even more grim for Yonkou > Shichibukai given Whitebeard's current feats in his "sick" state.

Again offpanel! Facts are: Whitebeard (back then and even now I believe) is stronger than Shanks and Mihawk is stronger than Crocodile. Ur whole fact has nothing to do with Shanks vs Mihawk

I think he said from the beginning that these facts were used to show that a Yonkou has never been proven to lose to a Shichibukai whereas some Shichibukai did lost to some Yonkou and to less strong people.
And WB>Shanks and Mihawk>Crocodile are not facts as you claimed it. We have not any single information about that.

4. Fact: Luffy has beaten Shichibukai and is below yonkou level by a large margin.

Going by your fact 1, Luffy is already high tier level (Yonko/Admiral) lol

I'm still looking where he said or meant that. That you don't agree with his opinion about Yonkou and Shichibukai level don't give you the right to make him say things he did not say.
And " Kaidou beat Moria " is not his fact but a fact.

3. Fact: Ace has tied Jinbei (Shichibukai level) in the past. Yet Ace is beneath Yonkou level by a large margin.
5. Fact: Shichibukai including Mihawk were being held off by Whitebeard's lower captains aka people below Yonkou level.

I can only repeat myself, don't put each individual in one basket. WB is called the most powerfullest and strongest man for a reason. That guy, even if he is a Yonko, is on a whole different level all together. Shanks has yet to archive those titles, while Mihawk has a title on his own. Your five facts had nothing to do with the Mihawk vs Shanks fight.

These facts illustrate very well what he said before he made his list of facts : " I've seen Yonkou beat Shichibukai but not the other way around. I've seen Shichibukai lose or tie to people beneath Yonkou level. " (A).
A remark he used to support his idea which was : " Yonkou are bigger and better [than Shichibukai] from what I've seen. " (B)
So if you want to criticize his opinion, criticize the link between A and B but come on, do not try to prove the 5 facts he used are false when they are definitely true. After all, they are facts !

 

[Finale]

There are still many unknowns. Was Shanks considered the best before he lost his arm? Were they considered equal? Who won their legendary duel? Shanks doesnt seem the kind to care about titles. Shanks lives for adventures, while Mihawk seems to be traveling around in the hopes of finding a worthy swordsman to test his abilities against. If asked who I think is the stronger I'd have to go with Shanks. He doesnt stirke me as someone that relies solely on his sword skills. He has his incredible haki that we have yet to see fully released. Luffy's outbursts have shown how potent the kings haki can be. Maybe Shanks in their duels decided to fight him heads up without his haki and rely solely on strength of arms in a test of pure ability with a sword.

 

[BlackHair]

I sure did a mistake there. I was irradiated by those facts that I missed the two sentences under the quote. Well I guess the spoiler part in my posts can be skipped, it has no value in this discussion. In future I should invest more time reading posts, which I'm about to argue lol.. Sry again.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

There are still many unknowns. Was Shanks considered the best before he lost his arm? Were they considered equal? Who won their legendary duel? Shanks doesnt seem the kind to care about titles. Shanks lives for adventures, while Mihawk seems to be traveling around in the hopes of finding a worthy swordsman to test his abilities against. If asked who I think is the stronger I'd have to go with Shanks. He doesnt stirke me as someone that relies solely on his sword skills. He has his incredible haki that we have yet to see fully released. Luffy's outbursts have shown how potent the kings haki can be. Maybe Shanks in their duels decided to fight him heads up without his haki and rely solely on strength of arms in a test of pure ability with a sword.

We don't know if Mihawk is only interested in swordmen or not. Anyway, this information is very important regarding the difference of power between Mihawk and Shanks.

If he only wants to fight swordmen, it can explain why he is not interested in Shanks anymore even if he is a Yonkou. That's because of the loss of his arm, Shanks is not the same swordman anymore.
As their well-known duels were always when they had all their arms, Mihawk does not find it fair to continue their duel as swordmen as he has lost one of his arm. So, Shanks could still be stronger than him as a swordman or beyond his swordman abilities : it's just that Mihawks doesn't want to fight him anymore because it's not like in the past (regarding their duels).

If he is interested in strong guys in general (like it seems with WB and Luffy at MHQ), it would mean that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks. Indeed, they used to fight a lot in the past and now he has no longer any (fighting) interest in the Yonkou. If Shanks was as strong/stronger than Mihawk, he would not consider the loss of his arm as a handicap and he would still be interested in Shanks.

 

[Primecut]

A part of your post BlackHair caught my eye. It may be because I see some bad faith in it and I have to point it out. This is not linked to my opinion about the level of Yonkou and Shichibukai (I tend to agree with what bittman said).
Anyway, what Primecut said in a post was true and I must defend it after your answer to it.



How screwed up his fact is ? Actually, Kaidou did beat Moria.
I don't see where he or his logic (not to say there is not personal opinion in a fact) meant that the SHs are better than Kaidou and his crew.



I think he said from the beginning that these facts were used to show that a Yonkou has never been proven to lose to a Shichibukai whereas some Shichibukai did lost to some Yonkou and to less strong people.
And WB>Shanks and Mihawk>Crocodile are not facts as you claimed it. We have not any single information about that.



I'm still looking where he said or meant that. That you don't agree with his opinion about Yonkou and Shichibukai level don't give you the right to make him say things he did not say.
And " Kaidou beat Moria " is not his fact but a fact.

These facts illustrate very well what he said before he made his list of facts : " I've seen Yonkou beat Shichibukai but not the other way around. I've seen Shichibukai lose or tie to people beneath Yonkou level. " (A).
A remark he used to support his idea which was : " Yonkou are bigger and better [than Shichibukai] from what I've seen. " (B)
So if you want to criticize his opinion, criticize the link between A and B but come on, do not try to prove the 5 facts he used are false when they are definitely true. After all, they are facts !

Nice post. Whew, he really was putting a lot of word's in my mouth after reading through that...mess.

Incorrect, Yonkous are the highest level of FREE pirate. Allying yourself with the World Government doesn't automatically make you a weakling. And the admirals are all very high tier, probably flat out equal to any of the Yonkous in a 1v1 match. From watching the admirals fight WB, I haven't seen any evidence that he was vastly superior to any of them...unless...

Whitebeard is first place...sort of. I still do think Akainu > WB (or at least equal), WB just got off the more definitive shot amongst all the attacks they threw at each other over the course of this war. Even then the two most damaging attacks WB has suffered have been from Akainu.

Wow, if you think Akainu > Whitebeard or even Akainu = Whitebeard then you truly are reading a different manga than me. You do realize that Whitebeard had a big hole in his chest before he even got off his ship to fight, right? That's because Akainu tricked Squaddo into stabbing him.

As for those "definitive shots"...a wounded and fatigued Whitebeard was on his knees, tanked Akainu's best shot to the chest and tanked multiple swords going through him...shots that were clearly meant to kill him.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/10/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/12/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/569/08-09/

Then he's back up again ready to go. Those shots dont look so "definitive" to me and attacking Whitebeard when he is on his knees occupied with spitting up blood is hardly impressive.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/569/10-11/

Then one of the worst stompings in One Piece to date (on an Admiral anyway)...here is what a definitive shot looks like, because definitive shots are the ones that put the enemy down for the count after all. Keep in mind Whitebeard doesnt even use his Bisento from behind to give him a sporting chance...

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/575/06-07/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/575/08-09/

So, a fresh Akainu was killed by two hits from Whitebeard riddled with stab wounds, fatigued, and generally at the end of his rope. That is a testament to the sheer power Whitebeard has. I can safely conclude even an aged Whitebeard >>> Akainu.

Sorry charlie, try again...because he is STILL not done.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/575/10-11/

And the admirals are all very high tier, probably flat out equal to any of the Yonkous in a 1v1 match.

So, Aokiji's offense cant even slow down Whitebeard and if Whitebeard wanted to he could just Haki slash any of the admirals. Remember, Whitebeard isnt trying to kill the admirals but they are trying to kill him, he's trying to rescue Ace. The admirals are definitely more impressive than the Shichibukai have been, but all they have done is land cheapshots on Whitebeard this whole war and showed they cant handle him alone at all unless he is really wounded/tired/outnumbered.


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/567/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/567/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/567/05/

Takes all three to counter his power...I'd say in a three versus one they can take him if he is 100% fresh with possible casualties on their side since he can one or two shot each one when he connects, proven by how he handled Akainu.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/564/08-09/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/564/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/564/11/

One on one against a fresh Whitebeard though? That's just insanity. They'd last a couple panels. Kizaru might be able to run away though due to his speed but Akainu would have been drowned if Aokiji didnt stop that initial Tsunami from Whitebeard, thats for sure.

 

[RichardMNixon]

As far as I can tell, the primary argument for Mihawk winning rests on his title "World's Greatest Swordsman" (and Zoro needing to beat him instead of wanting to beat Shanks). I think it is safe to interpret his title as meaning he is more skilled with a sword than anyone else in the world. His title isn't "Guy who can kill anyone who uses a sword as a weapon." That isn't the title Zoro wants either, he wants to be the greatest swordsman. Taking that and declaring he can beat Shanks is presuming that Shanks is known and feared primarily for his swordsmanship.

I have no doubt Mihawk would beat Shanks in a fencing match; however, we've seen Shanks use haki more than we've seen him use his sword, and we've learned he has Haōshoku haki. This can't be emphasized enough. Rayleigh made a conscious effort to knock out people in the auction house with haki. Shanks knocked out much of Whitebeard's crew and DAMAGED HIS SHIP practically by accident. The revelation that Luffy had Haōshoku haki made the ordinarily stoic Doberman flip shit. (Was that the first time we saw his other eye?) It is a big, freaking deal.

When Mihawk swung at a giant iceberg, he cut it like butter. Incredible. However, when Shanks and Whitebeard fought each other, they CUT THE SKY as a SIDE EFFECT of fighting. And they weren't even fighting seriously! It was eve specified they didn't cut clouds, they CUT THE GODDAMNED SKY! WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?! If Mihawk is the Michael Phelps of swordsmanship, then Shanks is Aquaman.

If I can appeal to another fantasy source: Gandalf fought with a sword. Aragorn was almost certainly a better swordsman. That doesn't mean Aragorn could beat Gandalf in a fight.

 

[Finale]

Aokiji uses an ice sword and Kizaru a light sabre but we cant say for certain that Mihawk could beat them in a fight. Its their other abilities thatll make up for their deficiency in swordsmanship. So like Nixon said Shanks haki will likely be the thing that helps him pull it out.

 

[Primecut]

When Mihawk swung at a giant iceberg, he cut it like butter. Incredible. However, when Shanks and Whitebeard fought each other, they CUT THE SKY as a SIDE EFFECT of fighting. And they weren't even fighting seriously! It was eve specified they didn't cut clouds, they CUT THE GODDAMNED SKY! WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?! If Mihawk is the Michael Phelps of swordsmanship, then Shanks is Aquaman.

That's right man. I'll tell you what slashing the sky means. Shanks was establishing himself as next in line for that title of World's Strongest when Whitebeard goes down. That's what cutting the sky meant in symbolic terms because Whitebeard was treating Shanks like a kid but was shown that he moved up to the same level as him. To cut the sky requires power that no other character has shown besides those two. It wasnt even a direct attack on the sky, it was a runoff of their power from clashing which makes it more impressive. If Mihawk threw a slash at the sky I'm not sure it would even reach and even if he could he'll never match the amount of damage they did to it.

The thing about Shanks is that he is a lot more powerful than he lets on. People said Mihawk is like that as well but Mihawk did bust out some of his best attacks to test his power against WB. With what Shanks has shown so far, he might just be Mihawk times three for all we know when he starts using the Haki directly and offensively. Maybe his sword will start glowing with Haki and he can just slash through Mihawk's sword if he really wanted to. I tend to think he holds back when he duels Mihawk and doesnt use Haki since it would interfere with the spirit of competition and Shanks doesnt look like he cares about beating him.

 

[bittman]

The thing about Shanks is that he is a lot more powerful than he lets on. People said Mihawk is like that as well but Mihawk did bust out some of his best attacks to test his power against WB. With what Shanks has shown so far, he might just be Mihawk times three for all we know when he starts using the Haki directly and offensively. Maybe his sword will start glowing with Haki and he can just slash through Mihawk's sword if he really wanted to. I tend to think he holds back when he duels Mihawk and doesnt use Haki since it would interfere with the spirit of competition and Shanks doesnt look like he cares about beating him.

I won't go on about the Akainu vs Whitebeard thing, but we clearly are reading a different manga here, because I never saw Akainu struggle until he actually got hit. And then you said something about him hitting with his best attack, but I do remember seeing a magma fist go through 100 tonnes of ice. But that's probably for another thread...

So onto the two highlighted bits of your post:

1) I believe it's been said time and time again, but Mihawk did not bust out his best attack. It was not a direct attack, it was not followed through with, it was done from a kilometre away, etc. Saying that is his best attack is like saying Zoro's best attack is his 108 pound canon because it gives him range. You also threw a plural in there.

2) The entire second bit I bolded is nothing more than fanfiction. I can just as easily say that Mihawk's black blade can suck in people with a dark vortex and that his eyes allow him to cast illusions.

Remember, we're basically debating on two fighters who we've seen nothing of. Sure, you can point to one page of Shanks and I can point to about 10 pages of Mihawk.

Since I'm already of the belief that Mihawk hasn't given an ounce of effort in this entire battle though, I'm going off "belief". Yet the Shanks arguements are all "belief" too. "Oh he high fived Whitebeard and the clouds stepped back in awe" to me means little. It was for Oda to go "look at these bitches, aren't they awesome?"

The only real comparison I can make between the two is that one cut a wave of ice from a kilometre away, and one cut the clouds a kilometre away during a clash with Whitebeard.

But like I've said earlier, I'd rate them almost equal and I'd hit a "tie" button if it existed. I mean, imagine Roger vs WB. Basically equals from all accounts. I believe it's very possible Shanks and Mihawk share a similar battle count. Shanks won some, Mihawk won some. It's more a matter of:
A) Who's improved more since they stopped fighting? (By accounts it has been some time since they've had a fight)
B) Why did they really stop fighting? (was it Mihawk being honorable against a handicapped opponent? was it Mihawk backing down?)

 

[Primecut]

I won't go on about the Akainu vs Whitebeard thing, but we clearly are reading a different manga here, because I never saw Akainu struggle until he actually got hit. And then you said something about him hitting with his best attack, but I do remember seeing a magma fist go through 100 tonnes of ice. But that's probably for another thread...

Feel free to make an Akainu vs. Whitebeard fight, considering an almost dead Whitebeard just stomped a fresh Akainu badly. Akainu had a free shot at Whitebeard because Squaddo's stab wound incapacitated him, Whitebeard was on his knees and Akainu put his flaming fist through Whitebeard's chest. That is pretty much the best shot he is going to get against Whitebeard and he only got that opportunity because of his trickery with squaddo. And about the 100 tons of ice...I remember Whitebeard catching Akainu's fireballs from that same chapter on his bisento and telling him to go light a birthday cake, of course that was before Akainu had to cut a deal with Squaddo to backstab him. So yeah, go ahead and make that thread, I need a good laugh....anyway.

So onto the two highlighted bits of your post:

1) I believe it's been said time and time again, but Mihawk did not bust out his best attack. It was not a direct attack, it was not followed through with, it was done from a kilometre away, etc. Saying that is his best attack is like saying Zoro's best attack is his 108 pound canon because it gives him range. You also threw a plural in there.

2) The entire second bit I bolded is nothing more than fanfiction. I can just as easily say that Mihawk's black blade can suck in people with a dark vortex and that his eyes allow him to cast illusions.

Remember, we're basically debating on two fighters who we've seen nothing of. Sure, you can point to one page of Shanks and I can point to about 10 pages of Mihawk.

Since I'm already of the belief that Mihawk hasn't given an ounce of effort in this entire battle though, I'm going off "belief". Yet the Shanks arguements are all "belief" too. "Oh he high fived Whitebeard and the clouds stepped back in awe" to me means little. It was for Oda to go "look at these bitches, aren't they awesome?"

The only real comparison I can make between the two is that one cut a wave of ice from a kilometre away, and one cut the clouds a kilometre away during a clash with Whitebeard.

But like I've said earlier, I'd rate them almost equal and I'd hit a "tie" button if it existed. I mean, imagine Roger vs WB. Basically equals from all accounts. I believe it's very possible Shanks and Mihawk share a similar battle count. Shanks won some, Mihawk won some. It's more a matter of:
A) Who's improved more since they stopped fighting? (By accounts it has been some time since they've had a fight)
B) Why did they really stop fighting? (was it Mihawk being honorable against a handicapped opponent? was it Mihawk backing down?)

Look, you can say it over and over that it wasnt Mihawk's best attack, but the fact he wanted to test his strength against someone stronger than him indicates otherwise. You think he would use a weak attack against Whitebeard when he knows Whitebeard is stronger than him? That makes very little sense and the attack didnt look that weak either considering it was the size of the ship almost. I dont even care that Diamond Jozu blocked it with ease, the fact is Whitebeard didnt even blink at Mihawk's incoming attack and Mihawk was being held off by lower ranked captains than Jozu...

Shanks buffing up his attacks with Haki is probable. How else could he tie Whitebeard's swing when Whitebeard has shown to launch hundreds of grown men with a single swipe? I mean, I'm sure his one arm is stronger than before since its all he has to work with now, but stalemating a beast like Whitebeard's physical two handed swing with strength alone with his one arm is not possible. It was basically his Haki amped swing that stopped WB's blade and split the sky along with WB's amped swing. Also make note of WB's weapon glowing with Haki. Face it, they can amp their weaps with Haki.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/566/16-17/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/567/03/

So you think it is unrealistic for a guy who is on the same level as Whitebeard and is a confirmed Haki beast to amp up his weapon with Haki? Doesnt surprise me considering you think Akainu can beat Whitebeard despite the manga showing the opposite.