TV The LOST Thread: [SPOILERS]

kaliayev

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Hmmmm, I think I may have figured some things out in a brief episode of maniacal ramblings to friends. This episode's revelation is important. I'm sure there will be holes in this theory, so feel free to criticize to your heart's content. I will warn you that you may want to avoid confronting portions of it (like I said, the theory is result of maniacal ramblings and elements of my maniacal ramblings are occasionally correct).

1. The argument. Based on what we heard in "Ab Aeterno," we have a better idea of what the argument is. MiB believes that everything is corruptible, while Jacob believes in the eventual triumph of humanity. The real problem is that MiB chose a generalized thesis. Because of this, Jacob needs only one counterexample for MiB's argument to fall apart. Heaven knows exactly what losing the argument entails (well, it probably has something to do with the sideways), but I think it's fairly safe to say that MiB's head won't explode. Now, we've seen Jacob's side manifest a few times and how MiB has responded to his contrarians (hell, even anyone who isn't overtly aligned to his cause and he's allowed to kill). Eko ultimately challenged MiB's stance and was killed for this reason. The same thing happened with Jacob, except his death is ultimately a continuation of the argument. Prior to Richard's employment, anyone who came to the island was either killed or corrupted by MiB. From the latter's perspective, this would limit the possibility of certain individuals making the right choice and maximize his opportunities to corrupt people. This all changed when Richard became a representative and Jacob started "fighting back." Since then, more of the inhabitants are given the chance to choose their paths, with a few nudges from either party (well, MiB likes to do more than nudge).

2. MiB's apparitions. This is a relatively weak theory, but please give it a chance. In order for MiB to appropriate another's appearance, certain conditions must be met: a) individual must be dead, b) there must be an item that links the deceased to the living in a deeply symbolic way and the living must be aware of it, c) said item must be relatively concrete. The first one is obvious, but the other two require some explanation. For the four primary apparitions used by MiB, excluding his "original" form, a concrete item was involved. With Christian and Locke, the shoes were necessary. The same applies to the necklaces in regards to Yemi and Isabella (not sure how Alex fits, but I like to think Ben kept a memento). All of these items were significant to the living and the latter were aware of this significance. Let’s look at Charlie. Looking back on MiB’s attempts to manipulate Claire, we never saw an instance of him appropriating Charlie’s appearance. Here’s the deal, the item, DS ring, Charlie left was lost until Sun found it. Because the living were not aware of the ring’s existence, MiB could not use Charlie’s appearance, even if that appearance would have made his life slightly easier. In regards to the third, this is a relative weakness for MiB. Given the number of characters on the island with meaningful scraps of paper/books/photographs, if he were able to use less concrete items, the exploits would be limitless. Additionally, one has to wonder what would happen if the item serving as a link between the living and the dead were to be destroyed while MiB was using the respective apparition. This would be an easy thing to accomplish if the item was less concrete, especially in terms of paper. Destroying shoes or jewelry is a little more difficult. Someone needs to exhume Locke and destroy his shoes, darn it! Dummies should have cremated him.


This begins the part you may want to avoid thinking about:
3. Replaceable parts. It has been indicated that one of the primary goals for the characters this season will be determining who will replace Jacob. Jacob made a list of candidates and MiB isn’t allowed to kill them. In one of the audio podcasts, Lindelof, after being prompted by a fan’s question, hinted that the list in the cave may be there to confuse MiB (Jacob, and the writers, like to do that). That is, there are differences between the Lighthouse’s list and the cave’s list, especially when it comes to Kate. To me, the simple admission that one could be false implies the same for the other, but I won’t get into that here. MiB has a list of candidates and omissions that may play into Jacob’s plans. On the surface, instead of killing these people, he is trying to convert them to his cause so that they will not replace Jacob. However, in the Ben-centric episode, Locke mentioned wanting to have Ben manage things after he left. I took this as an implication that he also needs a replacement. That is, in order to escape, he needs to abandon the majority of his powers. "But wait, wouldn't that render him obsolete in the outside world?" That depends on how you look at it. Despite not having divine powers in the outside world, certain members within the parent corporation (Global Welfare Consortium?), which appears to be behind everything since major companies involved in the events are its subsidiaries (they dropped the food!), are capable of having a negative influence on the outside world (yes, this probably all comes down to Jacob, but that’s more reason to still fear a powerless MiB. Jacob actually “minimized” his involvement despite his nudging other characters. MiB doesn’t). Given MiB’s argument and his propensity for manipulating/killing people, he could still rise to a dangerous position without his powers. Because of this, if he continues holding that his argument is true, he’s a threat, regardless of his form.

4. MiB's plan. Now, let's take a look at MiB's camp. He recruited Sawyer because he's a conman, Sayid because he murders a lot of people, Claire cause she's a little nuts, and Ben because he's a synthesis of Sawyer and Sayid (yes, these are oversimplifications, but we won't deal with that right now). Kate and Jin are also in his camp, albeit reluctantly, so he probably views their paths in a similar light. All the former others who are in his camp feared death more than they cared about Jacob's vision, making them fairly easy to manipulate. The way I see it, he's surrounding himself with such people for two reasons. First, and the most obvious, he needs to have an army for those pesky situations when can't interfere with events (i.e. he needs help getting past the pylons). Second, he's looking for his replacement. Obviously, this would involve conning everyone in his camp, but he's MiB so what does he care? However, there's another side to the replacement issue: he wants someone who will internalize his argument. This helps explain why he is trying to corrupt the candidates. If the candidates despair and begin to hate everyone around them, whoever replaces MiB would presumably pursue an argument similar/identical to MiB's when taking his position.

5. Jacob gets to win the argument. Now, the problem with MiB's plan is that Jacob will be proven right. Unfortunately for MiB, the strings being pulled in his camp aren't necessarily going to work out in his favor. For example, while he may be aware of the fact that Sawyer is trying to play both sides, Sawyer, and Jacob, like to throw curveballs. The former jumped out of the helicopter after all. Now, the counterexample that Jacob needs would have to relate to an individual(s) committing a selfless act by abandoning his/her outside life for the sake of becoming the replacement(s). Because of the nature of rules, MiB can't kill the replacements/candidates, as he would most people who challenge his position. Since I can’t imagine Ben repeating his mistake, MiB will be forced to confront the counterexample by the replacements/candidates after/during the inheritance of the mantle(s).

6. Desmond/likely endgames. I'm not sure my previous prediction about Desmond can be easily reconciled with the above, but I see three possibilities for how this will all go down, provided the above theory is correct (I acknowledge the resultant variations on them if MiB doesn’t need a replacement and a possible mixture of the scenarios. That is I replace Jacob, and then you replace me. Huzzah for us): a) Desmond becomes the new Jacob or synthesis of the two forces (in his case, I really don’t care whether his name is on the list. The list could just be designed to throw everyone off XD). His life has been marked with a fair level of selfish cowardice (he has had his moments, and they were some of the best, but he is one of the more egoistic characters). Whatever vision he may have had, he joined the monastery to escape his engagement, he broke up with Penny because he couldn’t support her, despite her relaying her feelings about the issue through “Our Mutual Friend, etc. Because of his past selfishness and the life waiting for him off the island, his becoming the new Jacob/synthesis proves Jacob’s argument. Metaphorically, he begins pushing the button again (“You may not like your path, Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do” XD). If the flash sideways end up being the result of the endgame, this will help explain his bizarre appearance on the plane, unless the writers end up explaining that by giving him a relatively clear-cut flash sideways narrative in the Desmond-centric episode. The other two are fairly similar to one another. Kate’s name wasn’t crossed off in the lighthouse, and Jacob’s list is the “correct” one. MiB was given a false list so that he wouldn’t try to manipulate Kate. Kate becomes one of the replacements and Jack becomes the other (I suppose Sawyer could also work instead of Jack but I don’t see the writers going in that direction). Given the fact that we’re promised a showdown between Flocke and Jack, Jack replaces Jacob, dukes it out with Flocke, and Kate ends up replacing MiB, proving Jacob’s argument. The two concoct the scenario by which the flash sideways reality comes to be, allowing the others to end up in a relatively better world, where the evil is contained underwater, and does not have an avatar. This also means that they’ll allow themselves to end up in the other timeline. Jack essentially repeats the Jughead decision and Kate consents. Somehow, their bodies become Adam and Eve. Kate isn’t a candidate, making the cave list “correct.” This would mean that both Kwons are candidates. The scenario plays out much like the Kate/Jack one, but harkens back to the line Jacob delivered at the Kwon wedding. As the new figureheads, they seek to prove Jacob’s prophecy about their love. Over time, whatever relationship MiB and Jacob had with one another deteriorated to the point that the former wanted to kill the latter. The Kwon relationship may not deteriorate at all (well, we’ll see what happens with the flash sideways marriage). They resolve to engender the flash sideways timeline…etc. Given my own disposition, the scenarios are in the order I favor them/probability in my own head. “See you in another life, brother.”

7. The escape. Despite all this, MiB will somehow escape the island. The way I see it, the majority of the deceased oceanics/minor flash sideways characters left behind meaningful, concrete items (hell, even with Arzt, there’s a boatload of dynamite, Dogen left behind the baseball, etc). The replacement for Jacob will be determined before the replacement for MiB, provided he has one. In the time between the new Jacob having taken the mandate and MiB being replaced, MiB will choose a new form. As I said, he has a lot of appearances he can choose from. Using whatever means he plans to escape, he will end up in the flash sideways timeline. However, here’s the problem, for him at least, with his escape: he will be proven wrong before he leaves. Because of this, despite everything he did to escape and prove his argument, each unethical action he took will lose its respective rationalization/meaning. He will be an empty shell of what he was, doomed to be haunted by his past. As such, and you’re going to want to believe this portion since the writers love having characters deal with redemption and it’s incredibly frakking ironic, he won’t know how to approach his life. His first inclination will be to kill himself/despair. Eventually, he will come to the conclusion that Jacob was right in more ways than one. In order to come to terms for his meaningless crimes, he will seek to live his life as best he can. This will make him Jacob’s final student, and I’ll still hate MiB’s guts. Now, you’re probably going to dislike where I take this (even I’m reluctant to imagine it). The final form MiB will take is Charlie. The writers made a point of having Sun discover the ring (the one ring to rule them all). Because of this, Charlie will be fair game if MiB can take a new form. This may seem odd at first, but I’ll try to explain the rationale (yes, I recognize it’s somewhat flimsy but it’s all I have for now). Creative mediums, including music, have been a means to inspire people to do great things or truly horrific things. The right phrase, sound, or picture can trigger within an individual the worst nightmare or the greatest dream. With music as his tool, MiB could originally plan for the former. If he hopes to seek redemption after escaping, he could try to accomplish the latter. As such, I feel that, if he escapes and seeks redemption, Charlie would be the best option for the writers to choose. While I won’t forgive MiB, it would be a decent tribute if the writers extended the legacy established for Charlie on the island. That or MiB will choose a different form, he won’t care that he was proven wrong, and we’ll have a repeat of the Twin Peaks’ finale (oh yeah, I reallllly want that).

p.s. Does anyone know the details for "ask Lost?" I tried submitting three questions earlier today, but I'm not sure it worked as I was repeatedly directed to an error page. As I'm excessively paranoid about Lost misdirection, part of me thinks the website could just be designed to frak with people. Even so, there may be a character limit or something similar (the questions amounted to a little over a page single spaced), so any assistance with the issue would be appreciated.

p.p.s. It would be rather interesting if Sayid still carries his wedding ring. Flocke could partially fulfill his promise.

p.p.p.s. Claire will flee the island. She will take squirrel baby with her. Squirrel baby is the Aaron proxy, and this accounts for what Desmond saw in his vision.
 
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xi0

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Holy crap kaliayev, a lot of discussion going on there.

I think my problem with the crux of your theory is that I don't see a need for MiB to take enough other forms, where all of the Losties who align themselves with him would need to die.

If the Island is indeed the cork that keeps Evil Incarnate (MiB) bottled up, that would mean that it isn't Jacob who's important at all. Sure he is there to be a steward of the Island, and whoever replaces him will do the same thing. He/she will be a guide for all visitors to the Island, if MiB can be kept there successfully.

I also don't see a reason for the timelines to merge either. At the beginning of this season we were given a vital clue...the Island submerged and in ruins. If Evil Incarnate is no longer on the Island, than the cork (Island) no longer is necessary...thus it in all intents and purporses, the Island no longer exists. This means that the MiB is free to roam the Earth as he had always wished. These Flash-sideways aren't only about what would happen if Flight 815 had never crashed, they're also there to show us what the world would be like if the Island no longer had a purpose = MiB escaped.
 

kaliayev

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Hmmm, why would only those aligned with MiB need to die? If you think this has to do with the forms, there are already plenty of dead people, who have substantive mementos bonding them to the living, lying around.



You're right. If it's as simple as Jacob being a guard, there would be no reason for him to be there. There would also be no reason for him to bring people to the island to prove his argument. The way I see it, the flask and cap example is only a partial explanation, one Jacob used for Richard's benefit (well, the writers used it for ours as well). Now, the point of prison is to reform those, notwithstanding those who are innocent or have other extenuating circumstances that would prevent reform, who are deemed unfit to participate in society, as a result of their actions (at least, we hope. I don't really want to get into a debate about the nature of prison systems and punitive legal standards right now, so please avoid focusing on that in a possible criticism). Who's to say this wouldn't apply to the island?

Now, returning to Jacob's conversation with Richard, with almost all containers used for the purpose of storing an item, there are likely to be flaws. Let's take the flask and cap. Excluding the overly simple task of MiB breaking the flask, there are ways for the wine to escape. If you were suspend the flask upside down for an incredibly extended period of time, some of the wine would seep through the incredibly minute gaps between the glass and cap/the cracks of the cap. That is, the evil would still corrupt the world in some way. For example, MiB would affect everyone on the island in some way simply because he exists. However, there are people on the island who leave. MiB's influences upon them would be carried into the outside world. They would further influence the people surrounding them, tainting the entire world with MiB's touch. Returning to the parallels with the episode of the Twilight Zone entitled "the Howling Man," what if the caretakers had convinced evil incarnate that his position was wrong, instead of simply "trapping" him?

Now, let's take another look at the replaceable parts theory. The simple fact that Jacob can be replaced implies the same for MiB. This further implies that there were figures assuming those roles before the two of them did. After all, we have indications from Jacob that the two of them were "friends" and MiB has talked about being a child once. If they were always good guy and evil guy, I don't see how this (at least, the former) would be possible. Now, if each figure for each position was only concerned with fulfilling their roles as guard and inmate, the entire process would be cyclical and relatively pointless. Each figure is replaced for the umpteenth time only for them to seek the same goal. When looking at it in this light, one realizes there has to be more to Jacob's plan...or his story is a complete lie (I'm more inclined to believe him than MiB). That is, Jacob seeks to end the cycle by proving his argument via his/MiB's replacement.


This brings me to a new addition to my theory:
8. The past for MiB and Jacob. When MiB talked about having a crazy mother, he was telling the truth in terms of Locke’s and his pasts (...or not). Jacob and MiB may be more than “friends.” They could be brothers (there is the allusion to Romulus and Remus on the knife and tapestry, though I’m not sure we know the full power of the knife. Perhaps the knife must be given directly by one of the two forces for it to work. That is, it didn’t work for Sayid because the knife was given by Dogen, not Jacob/MiB. In other words, Sayid should have stabbed Flocke again after he got the knife back. The above condition was fulfilled when Richard received the knife, and Jacob appeared legitimately frightened/disgusted by the fact that Richard had it. Oh, and this implies that the figure I’m talking about below enabled Jacob to kill her, just as Jacob enabled Ben to kill him). The two of them made their defining choices/inherited their mantles around the same time. For Jacob, who appeared as the boy with the bloody hands that later reminded MiB that there are consequences for breaking the rules, this entailed killing MiB’s/his surrogate mother/parents/the previous figures because it was the right thing to do, as she was super crazy since she couldn’t handle being the synthesis of the two forces or the parents/previous figures were no longer fit for the positions, whatever that entails (as I said above, it's likely that people filled the roles before those two). He sacrificed MiB’s/his mother/parents/previous figures for the greater good, and this is how he arrived at his position. Because of this, he ended up with the benevolent mantle. On the other side, MiB recognized that his mother/parents/previous figures was/were crazy, but had absolute trust in Jacob. Despite his dysfunctional "family," MiB originally didn’t want anything to change. When Jacob killed the mother, MiB’s original worldview was shattered. Jacob became corrupted in MiB’s view. He then took the position that everyone could be corrupted and that he couldn’t trust anyone, especially when it comes to Jacob. He would trust and serve only himself. As a result, he inherited the malevolent mantle. He began to hate Jacob and resolved to eventually kill Jacob, because MiB couldn’t stand being on the same island as someone who had completely "betrayed him" and because he viewed Jacob’s position as hypocritical. Thus, MiB also gained a strong desire to win with his general thesis, believing Jacob also served as evidence.

Like I said, Jacob will win the argument, but his victory won’t necessarily be as shallow that implies. That is, his proof may restore MiB’s faith in Jacob, and thus, humanity. Jacob will have sacrificed himself to return his brother’s/friend’s “innocence,” further illustrating his point that people will ultimately do the right thing, if given enough time.

p.s. The most obvious and immediate problem with what I'm saying is that there is an implication that removing/fully containing the evil of the island would completely remove the option of evil from the world. I'm not trying to say that. Jacob's/MiB's reverberations on the world/island still leave individuals with a choice. That is, even if we remove those reverberations, people can still choose between the right and wrong action. However, as Richard pointed out, MiB's reverberations do disrupt the supposed balance. He makes considerably more overt reverberations than Jacob does. A complete balance would deny/remove the likely reverberations caused by Jacob and MiB, leaving humanity/the island's residents only with the reverberations of its own actions. It's pretty clear that this is what the writers are setting up with the sideways timeline (the island is underwater, after all). The characters still do right and wrong (i.e. Keamy still does wrong), but with the contrived reverberations removed/lessened (the island was at least around until Dharma...provided it's not somehow the original timeline's island, just underwater...mindfrak), their natural dispositions generally leave them with better lives/choices (i.e. Dogen's son is alive and well).

p.p.s. It also might be helpful to keep in mind that, because I think he can be replaced, I see some differentiation between MiB as evil incarnate and as a human being. That is, if the evil possessing the individual that happens to be MiB were to be removed, there would be entirely two distinct entities: the evil that is now separate from MiB and the human being MiB. That human being will have been affected by the evil, but it will have more leeway for change/individuation.

p.p.p.s. I know this all sounds awfully Jobesque, but blame the writers, not me.
 
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The episode was nice...it was nice to see how things are between Widmore and MiB, i thought they were allies but now it seems that Widmore only knew him as Jacob's rival and the smoke monster.

I liked that he wanted to stop him from leaving the island, that proves that Widmore is on Jacob's side even if he wants to hijack the island for himself after the new Jacob is place.

What is he gonna do with DES? i think he is going to use him to change somethings on the past or the other timeline.
 

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The episode was nice...it was nice to see how things are between Widmore and MiB, i thought they were allies but now it seems that Widmore only knew him as Jacob's rival and the smoke monster.

I liked that he wanted to stop him from leaving the island, that proves that Widmore is on Jacob's side even if he wants to hijack the island for himself after the new Jacob is place.

What is he gonna do with DES? i think he is going to use him to change somethings on the past or the other timeline.
But that would imply that Widmore knows a way to give that ability back to Desmond. Remember that with Faraday's help he was able to find his constant (Penny), and the flashing back in time stopped.

Faraday's Mother did tell him that he had to go back to Island though...obviously he refused and was brought back forcibly.
 

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@Gat
Actually, after I watched this episode and revisited "Recon," I started questioning my original assumption that Widmore is working for Jacob. What if there is a "treaty of the baldies?" That is, everything that Widmore is doing will result in the candidates arriving on hydra island, which is exactly what Flocke wants, though I guess Jacob and MiB want the same events, up to a point, to happen. Urgh, I'll just say Widmore is also a casualty of ignorance. That will teach him to condescend to Sawyer.



Why the hell don't they all just use the wheel of time to escape, while Flocke gets left behind (he's probably not allowed to use it)? Sure, you lose a random amount of time and end up in the Sahara, but it's better than playing MiB's/Jacob's game.
 

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Damn, someone should destroy those pylons which keep MIB from getting further inside the Hydra Island :lmao I liked Sawyer when he said to MiB, "can't you just fly in there"? lol I was expecting MIB to fodder that Island :ninja


The new episode was awesome! Why the hell did Desmond run down Locke? :jawdrop
And Hurleys group meeting with the MIB! ARGH! Can't wait to see their talk, and Desmond in the well! Holy shit.
 
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The new episode was awesome! Why the hell did Desmond run down Locke? :jawdrop
And Hurleys group meeting with the MIB! ARGH! Can't wait to see their talk, and Desmond in the well! Holy shit.
I think there is obviously some sort of connection between the subconscious minds of both Desmonds. We saw that Hurley and Libby have memories of their time on the Island. I wonder if the reverse can also be true.

Desmond got the flight manifest in order to seek out the names that he may remember from Oceanic Flight 815. The way they juxtaposed Flocke throwing Desmond down the well, and Desmond running over Locke is interesting. Maybe they're are consequences in both realities depending on what happens. Like a tug-of-war type of thing? The whole "what happened happened" saying comes to mind. Maybe all those who died in the original timeline also will die in the new timeline?

Also, this has been bugging me, but seeing Michael this episode reminded me. Why didn't we see Michael or Walt on the plane? Obviously we didn't see Shannon because the actress who played her had some sort of scheduling conflict, so they wrote it off in the new reality that Boone couldn't convince her to come home with him. But Why wasn't Michael or Walt seen on the plane?
 

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I think there is obviously some sort of connection between the subconscious minds of both Desmonds. We saw that Hurley and Libby have memories of their time on the Island. I wonder if the reverse can also be true.

Desmond got the flight manifest in order to seek out the names that he may remember from Oceanic Flight 815. The way they juxtaposed Flocke throwing Desmond down the well, and Desmond running over Locke is interesting. Maybe they're are consequences in both realities depending on what happens. Like a tug-of-war type of thing? The whole "what happened happened" saying comes to mind. Maybe all those who died in the original timeline also will die in the new timeline?

Also, this has been bugging me, but seeing Michael this episode reminded me. Why didn't we see Michael or Walt on the plane? Obviously we didn't see Shannon because the actress who played her had some sort of scheduling conflict, so they wrote it off in the new reality that Boone couldn't convince her to come home with him. But Why wasn't Michael or Walt seen on the plane?
Good question, up until this episode Michael and Walt never even crossed my mind. Hmm... I wonder if anyone else has realised this or we may be missing something.
 

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I on the other hand thought that the mind of Desmond from Widmore machine <:p> came to Desmond from alternative reality, and that's why Desmond on the island was "fearless", he was like he was empty after that mindfucking of Widmore's machine xd

It's also good that we have finally the answer for all those whispers. At least I find this answer quite good.

Sawyer with his "you talk to wood now?" was priceless - he's epic <3

And on the note: seriously, after watching this episode the only thing which came to my mind about Desmond in alternative reality was: he is the next Jacob even though he isn't probably candidate :p Why? Because he's doing almost the same thing which Jacob was doing some time ago :p But it's rather half-joke than serious theory.

About Locke - wow, so that's the way Des wants to Locke remember stuff? I sure hope that it's not the end and next episode will show Des trying to convince Locke in alternative <I still have faith that he will be ressurected :p> At least I think it's better choice him than Jack :x Actually it's funny that I really liked his character only after he was killed and MiB <xd> is impostor of him : (
<or Locke in alternative died because is should have been that way.. BUT! if that was the case, even Libby should have been dead in alternative, so I hope that Locke's next in next episode>

Ah, and Ben's talk about the island and how Iliana died epic xD <and wow, she certainly went with a boom, I totally not expected that xP>

And Hugo.. well, eveyrbody loves Hugo <hahahaha> :p
 

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When Ilana died, I did not expect that at all. It actualy made me jump when the dynamites exploded, I was like "WTF?! NO WAY!" lol Lost needed to have a few jumpy moments back like that :tem
 

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Yeah, that might have been the biggest "AHHHHHH" shock moment in the series thus far. Completely shocking death.

Now that you mention it juUnior, I guess maybe we could assume Desmond trying to kill Locke will get him to become aware of the original timeline. It's certainly an unconventional way of doing it, but sort of makes sense in a really twisted way. Charlie essentially committed suicide on The Looking Glass station, and it took him to try to commit suicide to fully remember it. It took Hurley to muster up the confidence to talk to girls in order to remember. That happened on the Island as well. Locke being thrown from the plane (injured) got him healed, so maybe another accident will heal him and give him his awareness.

The awesomeness will be what it'll take for the rest of the group to become aware of the alternate reality.
 

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Weapon_X said:
When Ilana died, I did not expect that at all. It actualy made me jump when the dynamites exploded, I was like "WTF?! NO WAY!" lol Lost needed to have a few jumpy moments back like that
True xD But after what she was saying and than boom, first impression to me was the same as you, and than I laughed, haha :p

Yeah, xi0, that's what I assumed after the first thought: no way, Locke is just being "killed" and that's all? In my opinion it would be too simple.

xi0 said:
The awesomeness will be what it'll take for the rest of the group to become aware of the alternate reality.
haha, yeah xD I'm especially interested with Sawyer-policeman :p and I wonder if it really be connected with Juliet rather than Kate <I hope so :wtf>
 

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When Ilana died, I did not expect that at all. It actualy made me jump when the dynamites exploded, I was like "WTF?! NO WAY!" lol Lost needed to have a few jumpy moments back like that :tem
I had accepted that she was going to die before too long, but I was also surprised by the seemingly haphazard scene. Even though one could say her death served a purpose by influencing Hugo's actions (namely destroying a rock and meeting with Flocke), it almost had me joining the "Jacob is a douche" camp. The writers had practically lowered her to Arzt's status. She was aware of the fact that the candidates can't really die before event x occurs, yet she carried the unstable dynamite. :facepalm

he is the next Jacob even though he isn't probably candidate :p Why? Because he's doing almost the same thing which Jacob was doing some time ago :p But it's rather half-joke than serious theory.
Heh, don't make fun of my predictions (well, the ones that haven't been disproved). Just remember that he's completely open cause he doesn't conform to the rules, and Flocke is scared of him.

Also, this has been bugging me, but seeing Michael this episode reminded me. Why didn't we see Michael or Walt on the plane? Obviously we didn't see Shannon because the actress who played her had some sort of scheduling conflict, so they wrote it off in the new reality that Boone couldn't convince her to come home with him. But Why wasn't Michael or Walt seen on the plane?
Nice observation. If one ends up in the FST as a result of OT, the fact that Michael hasn't "moved on" could explain why we haven't seen him in the FST yet. It isn't that he doesn't exist in FST so much as fractions of OT Michael haven't been carried over, making FST Michael less relevant. Of course, it could just be that his wife never left him so he never ended up in Australia to reclaim Walt.



Speaking of Desmond, I think the writers may be walking a tightrope with the "simultaneity" of his consciousness. While I think it's a wonderful plot device, it could easily fall victim to troublesome paradoxes (well, more troublesome than 70s losties). Additionally we're left with an open-ended implication about how much Desmond may have experienced in the FST. Was his consciousness/fractions thereof transported after FST Desmond touched Penny, are OT Desmond's actions the continuation of whatever FST Desmond is up to with his attempts at transmitting enlightenment, or is there a constant shift like we saw with his other flash experiences? If his consciousness can exist in/interact with both the FST and OT, is that the final loophole (that is, keeping the "evil" imprisoned, while allowing both timelines to exist parallel to one another)?

Finally, does anyone else think that Flocke told Sayid about the endgame/FST? Sayid's complicit and detached attitude is parallel to Desmond's, and we weren't really privy to Flocke's conversation with Sayid beyond the revelation that the latter could be reunited with Nadia.

p.s. Flocke keeps giving people knives and nobody's stabbing him?! Grrrrrr!!!!
 
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p.s. Flocke keeps giving people knives and nobody's stabbing him?! Grrrrrr!!!!
If Flocke couldn't be killed by bullets, he wouldn't be killed by a knife. There was some sort of parameter met in order for Ben to be able to kill Jacob. There should also be the same type of parameter for someone to kille Flocke.

Also, Flocke seeing kids in the Jungle again? First one that resembled Jacob, and now one resembling the MiB. Interesting...I wonder why Flocke is so unsettled by them?
 

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If Flocke couldn't be killed by bullets, he wouldn't be killed by a knife. There was some sort of parameter met in order for Ben to be able to kill Jacob. There should also be the same type of parameter for someone to kille Flocke.
In an earlier post, I theorized that a knife must be given directly by one of the two incarnations in order for it to be effective against either. This condition was satisfied with Ben. It also helps explain why Jacob was so aggressive towards Richard when the latter was carrying a knife that he knew to be one of MiB's possessions. However, the above condition was not satisfied when Dogen gave Sayid his knife. Meanwhile, if Dogen did in fact receive that knife directly from Jacob, then the importance of the former's position as a guardian would prevent him from making the attempt on Flocke's life himself (not knowing that particular rule would also hinder Dogen's foresight). A reason to fear the possibility of somebody replacing Jacob is that said replacement wouldn't harbor the same attachment towards MiB. That is, s/he would be more likely to toss a weapon to a fellow Losty and tell him/her to shoot at Flocke. Finally, it adds another level to Flocke's interaction with the island's residents. If a weapon must be given directly by one of the two incarnations, then Flocke's repeatedly offering knives to various characters would be a significant sign of mocking them or scripted deference.
 

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kaliayev said:
it almost had me joining the "Jacob is a douche" camp.
I'm with that camp! :p
No, srsly, Jacob seems pathetic at some points. The most pathetic thing of all is the wooden house and seemingly Jacob in there. From what it seems, it was MiB that was doing the wooden house theatre. Now I want a REAL explanation on this <because I'm going to watch Lost the second time on vacation probably, a so called marathon to grasp all the things in different angle xD>

kaliayev said:
Heh, don't make fun of my predictions (well, the ones that haven't been disproved). Just remember that he's completely open cause he doesn't conform to the rules, and Flocke is scared of him.
Sorry, I didn't knew you had such predictions. If so, I can agree with you on 70% xP <still hoping the real Locke will be ressurected and will be the next Jacob xd> Because if it won't be Locke or Desmond but<!> Jack.. srsly, I can't think how much I will bash about this :p

kaliayev said:
Speaking of Desmond, I think the writers may be walking a tightrope with the "simultaneity" of his consciousness.
Now I'm thinking what will happen to Desmond from the island, when he will "convert" eveyrbody from "alternative" reality. <considering that he's dead right now>

xi0 said:
If Flocke couldn't be killed by bullets, he wouldn't be killed by a knife. There was some sort of parameter met in order for Ben to be able to kill Jacob. There should also be the same type of parameter for someone to kille Flocke.
I didn't think that way - yeah, that's a possibility. <or rather: it should be that way>

kaliayev said:
If a weapon must be given directly by one of the two incarnations, then Flocke's repeatedly offering knives to various characters would be a significant sign of mocking them or scripted deference.
Nice observations.
 

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Damn the new episode was awesome. Sawyer just got a slap across the face by Widmore, I knew Widmore was fishy. Can't believe this, all the candidates apart from Jack are on the Hydra Island lol

Also I wonder if Desmond is dead. Something tells me he isn't. Anyway, very good pacing this episode had, it cleared a big question that the MIB did take the form of Christian.

Now let the real war begin :ninja

And we have to wait 2 weeks for the next episode. ARGH! :(
 

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Yeah I saw that. Does anyone know why it's delayed a week? :s

And I thought the episode was good. It explained why Desmond hit Locke with his car (to connect him with Jack).

Though I'm not sure if I believe Flocke saying that he was Christian. He answered with some hesitation...it just came off weird to me. This also completely confirms that Jacob was never in that Cabin, and whoever Ben thought he was talking to wasn't Jacob either, it was MiB....if Flocke was telling the truth about him being Christian.
 

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Weapon_X said:
Sawyer just got a slap across the face by Widmore, I knew Widmore was fishy. Can't believe this, all the candidates apart from Jack are on the Hydra Island lol
Yeah, it came to <un>expected. Now I can't wait when Sawyer will bitch slap Widmore <literally> xD
And I also believe Des is not dead. Sayid may be on the dark side of force now, but.. but sth tells me that words od Desmond reached him nonetheless. And that scene with teling MiB that he killed him and to see if he tells the truth, and Flocke agreed. It sounds like Saiyid "tricked" him here.

xi0 said:
Though I'm not sure if I believe Flocke saying that he was Christian. He answered with some hesitation...it just came off weird to me. This also completely confirms that Jacob was never in that Cabin, and whoever Ben thought he was talking to wasn't Jacob either, it was MiB....if Flocke was telling the truth about him being Christian.
True. But for now I will believe MiB, because that's the thing I thought before with the "cabin" and Jacob in it. The only problem with this is: why no one, especially Richard, didn't tell it wasn't Jacob in the first place? And besides, it explains why there was a "cabin" and there wasn't anyone inside - MiB can materialize for anyone and probably anything, including houses :p, that's why he would be able to materialize into sth like that and even if someone would enter, he would still hear and do "miracles" like chair moving, etc, like a ghost theme.

My quick rant on the episode:
- Jack beautifully told about Locke, srsly :wtf
- "he was a sucker", lol.
- the alternatives met probably with almost everyone besides Hurley xD <and Sawyer from alternative telling about Sayid: "a bad guy", priceless xD
- nice text from Claire about MiB, that Jack is on his side after talking with him
- Sawyer: "Saiyd is on the dark side now", Hurley sth about being converted to good side again, Sawyer wtf he talks about, and Hurley: "you know, Anakin", EPIC XD
- Iliana back in alternative xd
- Kate: "what you talked about?, Sawyer: "guys talk" xP
- Sawyer from alternative nicely captured Saiyd, and that "you're under arrest", so untypical xD
- "he will get mad" xD
- nice theory of Jack about being on the island and that is the thing which MiB is afraid of. I think its quite possible: everyone right now want to run off the island.. interesting.
- the non-ending rivalry of Jack and Sawyer xP
- Sun x Jin reunion <3 And Sawyer's face.. man, I'm sad for him, he probably remembered Juliet : ( Actor H. nicely put a face here, really.

To sum up: 8/10 for me, really good episode.
 
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