Admiral vs Admiral: Who is the strongest?

[Zatono]

When was this stated...?

Technically it was said when the admirals were stated to be the Marines strongest military force, but this has been disproven simply because we have proof that Garp purposely didn't want to be an admiral.

Garp is probably above the admirals, and since him and Sengoku are probably on par with each other, I'd say they're both above the admirals.

However, for just the admirals, I'd say that Kizaru is on top, just because the man can shoot lasers and travel at light speed for Christ's sake. If he can use haki, even just a little bit, he should be able to just kick the crap out of Akainu and Aokiji. Otherwise, it's just a 3 way tie.

 

[Franckie]

Technically it was said when the admirals were stated to be the Marines strongest military force, but this has been disproven simply because we have proof that Garp purposely didn't want to be an admiral.

Garp is probably above the admirals, and since him and Sengoku are probably on par with each other, I'd say they're both above the admirals.

Sengoku and Garp were top-tier 20+ years ago. They've gotten old since then and it's been commented (e.g. WB) that they're not as powerful as they use to be.

The 3 Admirals have greater feats than either Sengoku and/or Garp. Furthermore, both Sengoku and Garp currently lack the ability to harm Logias.

 

[Razh]

The 3 Admirals have greater feats than either Sengoku and/or Garp. Furthermore, both Sengoku and Garp currently lack the ability to harm Logias.

Those 2 sentences contain only guesses. Greater feats? How can you possibly know that? And how can you possibly know that both Sengoku and Garp lack the ability to harm Logias? If you're gonna discuss, at least discuss using proven facts.

We have no way of knowing id Admirals are indeed stronger. I think their abilities give them more destructive power, but I also believe that those 2 old dogs have tricks of their own to deal with the likes. We've seen admirals spamming their abilities in this last battle. Sengoku threw one punch and one ki blast thing and Garp threw one punch and took one punch deliberately.
I don't know what Oda is saving them for, but since he did, they are probably unimaginably strong. I wouldn't be too sure that they couldn't deal with admirals.

But since this is Admirals discussion, I'd say Aokiji seems to be the weakest, thanks to the fruit. Both of those guys can generate heat, which is really his only weakness. I'd say Kizaru is the most destructive. Sure Akainu can spam magma, but Kizaru's attacks are the fastest.

 

[ceasar]

Those 2 sentences contain only guesses. Greater feats? How can you possibly know that? And how can you possibly know that both Sengoku and Garp lack the ability to harm Logias? If you're gonna discuss, at least discuss using proven facts.

We have no way of knowing id Admirals are indeed stronger. I think their abilities give them more destructive power, but I also believe that those 2 old dogs have tricks of their own to deal with the likes. We've seen admirals spamming their abilities in this last battle. Sengoku threw one punch and one ki blast thing and Garp threw one punch and took one punch deliberately.
I don't know what Oda is saving them for, but since he did, they are probably unimaginably strong. I wouldn't be too sure that they couldn't deal with admirals.

But since this is Admirals discussion, I'd say Aokiji seems to be the weakest, thanks to the fruit. Both of those guys can generate heat, which is really his only weakness. I'd say Kizaru is the most destructive. Sure Akainu can spam magma, but Kizaru's attacks are the fastest.

The beauty of one piece and the admirals are that they are so well balanced they each have strengths and weaknesses and no one really overpowers the other. That is what makes one piece so great however just based on the usefulness of abilities kizaru probably has the best situation. This is because of the abilities he possess's from it.

 

[undertoe]

Those two quotes prove nothing... For one, they contradict each other, casting immediate doubt on their veracity. Second, they only represent the PERCEPTIONS of people in the One Piece world, not the actual status of the world.

 

[bittman]

But since this is Admirals discussion, I'd say Aokiji seems to be the weakest, thanks to the fruit. Both of those guys can generate heat, which is really his only weakness. I'd say Kizaru is the most destructive. Sure Akainu can spam magma, but Kizaru's attacks are the fastest.

Seen a few comments like this, and not sure exactly what you're referring to because to me, this is how I rate the powers of the three admirals:

Akainu - High scale destruction, but probably neither agile nor defensive
Kizaru - High speed and precision attacks, but not overly destructive or defensive
Aokoji - High defensive capabilities and ability to capture enemies alive, but not a heap of attack power or speed

So sure, I've seen Kizaru fire a laser and it exploded into a mangrove and the mangrove fell over. But 95% of Kizaru's attacks have been either preicision kicks or piercing beams plus a whole heap of dodging. Akainu on the other hand, in the smallest attack we've probably seen him use, blew off half of Whitebeards face and, I feel, was shown as the most destructive as Sengoku relied upon him to wipe out the WB pirates when they were trapped.

So if this was some sort of RPG with stats, the winners would read something like:
Attack - Akainu
Defence - Aokoji
Speed - Kizaru

 

[Razh]

Maybe I should have articulated it better. I only said that Kizaru is the most destructive because he can deal damage the fastest. I agree that Oda didn't do him much justice in Marineford, compared to what we've seen on Shabondy. Maybe shooting the big lasers could have killed his own men or damaged the island itself. From lasers of that scale, his attacks get reduced to rain of light and stuff like that.
But anyway, from what I've seen all together, nothing from any of the admirals beats that kicksplosion we've seen on Shabondy. It's kinda lame that he used it against 2 nobodies while using finger lasers against real opponents. Guess he wanted to capture bounty heads or something.

 

[Ashura_Ichibugin]

Akainu is probably the strongest of them. It is neither because of his df, nor because of his physical abilities; it is because of his mentality.

And there is a thread named "The Strongest Marine" in tree of knowledge, if you want to discuss whether Garp and Sengoku can mop the floor with the admirals.

 

[Franckie]

Those 2 sentences contain only guesses. Greater feats? How can you possibly know that? And how can you possibly know that both Sengoku and Garp lack the ability to harm Logias? If you're gonna discuss, at least discuss using proven facts.

Contain guesses? I'm not the one speculating whether or not Sengoku and Garp currently possess the means to harm Logias. Neither have been shown to possess Haki or carry kairouseki on them at all times as Smoker does. Until Oda confirms that either party can harm Logias, they can't do it. Otherwise I assume that the 3 Admirals can nullify anything Garp/Sengoku can do. If you're gonna discuss, at least discuss using proven facts.

We have no way of knowing id Admirals are indeed stronger. I think their abilities give them more destructive power, but I also believe that those 2 old dogs have tricks of their own to deal with the likes. We've seen admirals spamming their abilities in this last battle. Sengoku threw one punch and one ki blast thing and Garp threw one punch and took one punch deliberately.

Again, with dicussion involving proven facts:

Fact: The Admirals are in their prime, Sengoku and Garp are not.
Fact: The Admirals have been stated to be the strongest.
Fact: The Admirals have been shown to possess destructive power outclassing anything that Sengoku or Garp have shown.
Fact: The Admirals possess Logia intagiblity that neither Garp or Sengoku have been confirmed to be able to bypass.
Fact: The Admirals were the focus of MHQ during the previous arc while Garp and Sengoku were on the sidelines.

The Admirals are stronger than current Garp and Sengoku. They might be able to do something if we're discussing Garp or Sengoku at their prime, but that's irrevelent since it's their current strength that matters.

I don't know what Oda is saving them for, but since he did, they are probably unimaginably strong. I wouldn't be too sure that they couldn't deal with admirals.

Oda also saved Momonga and Tsuru around too. Therefore, they should be able to deal with the Admirals. 100% proved.

 

[kisame123]

Contain guesses? I'm not the one speculating whether or not Sengoku and Garp currently possess the means to harm Logias. Neither have been shown to possess Haki or kairouseki on them at all times as Smoker does. Until Oda confirms that either party can harm Logias, they can't do it. Otherwise I assume that the 3 Admirals can nullify anything Garp/Sengoku can do. If you're gonna discuss, at least discuss using proven facts.

there was one case shown where Garp was able to inflict physical pain on Luffy here and he has recognized Luffy's haki abilities. If I'm not mistaken, Luffy has only made direct statements about him feeling pain when being hit by haki users. I think that it is safe to assume now that Garp can use haki. after all, he was able to fight toe-to-toe with Roger, who's right-hand man, Rayleigh, is one of the best haki users we've seen so far. however, I agree with everything else you said, Garp is just too old to be in the same league anymore. he may be close and probably the next one in line after the admirals, but age is an important factor.
-----
anyways, Akainu has demonstrated the most power out of the three so far. I think there is a reason why his abilities were shown last, it's because of him being the strongest. I'm not a fan of the admirals, but Akainu wields massive power. however, I think Garp in his youth was perhaps stronger simply because he is a haki user and was able to fight with Roger. Haki users are usually in a class above the logia type and seeing how Whitebeard pummeled Akainu, I just don't see him being that kind of "upper tier" kind of fighter like the Yonkou have shown to be.

 

[Ashura_Ichibugin]

Contain guesses? I'm not the one speculating whether or not Sengoku and Garp currently possess the means to harm Logias. Neither have been shown to possess Haki or carry kairouseki on them at all times as Smoker does. Until Oda confirms that either party can harm Logias, they can't do it. Otherwise I assume that the 3 Admirals can nullify anything Garp/Sengoku can do. If you're gonna discuss, at least discuss using proven facts.



Again, with dicussion involving proven facts:

Fact: The Admirals are in their prime, Sengoku and Garp are not.
Fact: The Admirals have been stated to be the strongest.
Fact: The Admirals have been shown to possess destructive power outclassing anything that Sengoku or Garp have shown.
Fact: The Admirals possess Logia intagiblity that neither Garp or Sengoku have been confirmed to be able to bypass.
Fact: The Admirals were the focus of MHQ during the previous arc while Garp and Sengoku were on the sidelines.

The Admirals are stronger than current Garp and Sengoku. They might be able to do something if we're discussing Garp or Sengoku at their prime, but that's irrevelent since it's their current strength that matters.



Oda also saved Momonga and Tsuru around too. Therefore, they should be able to deal with the Admirals. 100% proved.

1) It is not until Oda confirms that either party can harm Logias, they can't do it; it is until Oda says something about it, we cannot make certain statements like you do.

2) I would like to see where it is stated that Sengoku and Garp are not in their primes, AFAIK they do not suffer from any diseases and being old does not necessarily mean they are not as strong as before.

3) Yes, Admirals are stated to be the strongest. But this is not especially said for current Admirals, it means someone with the rank of admiral is the strongest. Do not forget Sengoku was an admiral before being promoted and Garp was offered promotion many times.

4) The Admirals have been shown to possess destructive power outclassing anything that Sengoku or Garp have shown; because Sengoku and Garp did not fight properly, not because they tried to fight and failed. By the way, Sengoku made whole Blackbeard crew (possibly except San Juan Wolf) spit blood with a single move and Garp punched Marco, who can hold himself against Akainu and Kizaru, way back with a single punch.

5) It is implied that Garp has Haki.

6) Garp and Sengoku were not on the sidelines, they were the last line of defence. Anyone with a shred of tactical knowledge knows that the last line of defence is the strongest.

 

[BlackHair]

Yet it doesn't change the fact the Admirals have been stated to be stronger than them.

As far as I know the rank Admiral was said to be the greatest fighting force of MHQ. Not specifically Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu. Sengoku who was a Admiral himself and Garp who declined that rank shouldn't be outruled by that statement.

Sengoku and Garp were top-tier 20+ years ago. They've gotten old since then and it's been commented (e.g. WB) that they're not as powerful as they use to be.

Again that doesn't automatically say they are weaker than the current Admirals.

My reference would be WB. He was shown to be stronger than the current Admirals, even though he is way beyond his prime. Means that WB was in his prime almost godlike. Just cause the Admirals are now in their prime, doesn't make them stronger than the older guys.

A bold example in Dragonball scale: Garp prime 100, Garp now 80 || Current Admirals 75, in 22+ years 60

The 3 Admirals have greater feats than either Sengoku and/or Garp.

Garp was said to have equal dead fights with Roger, who was said to been the true equal of WB. That is to me a much greater feat than any of the Admirals has shown us.

Furthermore, both Sengoku and Garp currently lack the ability to harm Logias.

This is obviously wrong. I don't know about Sengoku but Garp already proofed that he can bypass devil fruit intangibly. Garp vs Rubber, again. This is not like Nami's comedy punches, since it was commented that Luffy got hurt even though he is rubber.

Also seriously Haki is not a big deal. Sengoku who is now a Admiral in Chief (former Admiral) should by any means be able to control haki. But to be fair, it is still not clear that he can bypass df intangibility.



Also the small debate about "facts" or "guessing", tbh we are ALL guessing here. Until Oda let them fight each other. Or if a infobox is used.

 

[Razh]

Oda also saved Momonga and Tsuru around too. Therefore, they should be able to deal with the Admirals. 100% proved.

That would be a valid argument if they were as important as Sengoku and Garp. They are not. I don't need to explain it to you because I'm sure you know that yourself.
Maybe if Tsuru was a Fleet Admiral 2 and Momonga was a Hero of the Marines 2.

And yes, most of the things you have written is true. However, I can't turn a blind side and say something like - "until it's shown, it doesn't exist", because Oda hints stuff through his story, and then there are some Shonen laws and guidelines to consider.

 

[Franckie]

Spoiler: Ashura+Ichibugin

1) It is not until Oda confirms that either party can harm Logias, they can't do it; it is until Oda says something about it, we cannot make certain statements like you do.

2) I would like to see where it is stated that Sengoku and Garp are not in their primes, AFAIK they do not suffer from any diseases and being old does not necessarily mean they are not as strong as before.

3) Yes, Admirals are stated to be the strongest. But this is not especially said for current Admirals, it means someone with the rank of admiral is the strongest. Do not forget Sengoku was an admiral before being promoted and Garp was offered promotion many times.

4) The Admirals have been shown to possess destructive power outclassing anything that Sengoku or Garp have shown; because Sengoku and Garp did not fight properly, not because they tried to fight and failed. By the way, Sengoku made whole Blackbeard crew (possibly except San Juan Wolf) spit blood with a single move and Garp punched Marco, who can hold himself against Akainu and Kizaru, way back with a single punch.

5) It is implied that Garp has Haki.

6) Garp and Sengoku were not on the sidelines, they were the last line of defence. Anyone with a shred of tactical knowledge knows that the last line of defence is the strongest.

1) Ok. In that case there are no facts in the One Piece manga. There are only things we've been told and shown.

For example: Moria isn't really the weakest Shichibukai. We've only been told he is.

I trust you see how pointless discussion is under such circumstances.

2) I would like to see where it is stated that Garp and Sengoku are in their prime. AFAIK, getting older weakens as evidenced by Garp, Whitebeard, Crocus, and Rayleigh. The only exception to this trend is Brooke because of his very unique set of circumstances.

3) Sengoku has never been described as above the Admirals in fighting power. They have, on the other hand, been described as above him. What he used to be is irrevelent.

4) During the past arc, Sengoku and Garp hardly did anything during the war because Oda spent a lot more time and effort showcasing the 3 Admirals. What do you think that implies?

5) When was Garp confirmed to have Haki again?

6) The Admirals were the ones actually on the frontlines attempting to prevent Whitebeard and company from infiltrating Marineford as much as possible. Anyone with a shred of tactical knowledge knows the importance of defending the high ground which was tasked with the Admirals.

Spoiler: Blackhair

As far as I know the rank Admiral was said to be the greatest fighting force of MHQ. Not specifically Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu. Sengoku who was a Admiral himself and Garp who declined that rank shouldn't be outruled by that statement.

Greatest attack force is just the literal translation. Strongest is a perfectly acceptable one, which was used in the case for Aokiji in chapter 303. And another adjective was used about Aokiji in the databook anyway, one that translates to strongest.

Again that doesn't automatically say they are weaker than the current Admirals.

My reference would be WB. He was shown to be stronger than the current Admirals, even though he is way beyond his prime. Means that WB was in his prime almost godlike. Just cause the Admirals are now in their prime, doesn't make them stronger than the older guys.

A bold example in Dragonball scale: Garp prime 100, Garp now 80 || Current Admirals 75, in 22+ years 60

But the fact remains that the 3 Admirals have been stated to be the strongest persons in Marines. Furthermore, Garp hasn't showcased the firepower the Admirals have displayed.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that current WB is clearly stronger than any of the 3 Admirals. Even when WB jumped Akainu and delivered two critical hits on him, WB still failed to inflict any fatal damage on him. Akainu would later on proceed to wipe the floor with people such as Ivankov (who held his own against Kuma) and Jinbei.

Garp was said to have equal dead fights with Roger, who was said to been the true equal of WB. That is to me a much greater feat than any of the Admirals has shown us.

Garp never fought Roger to a draw. The only person who ever could was Whitebeard, and he's dead now. Prime Garp also had to tagteam with Sengoku in order to take down Shiki, a pirate in the same league as Roger, yet confirmed to be weaker than him.

This is obviously wrong. I don't know about Sengoku but Garp already proofed that he can bypass devil fruit intangibly. Garp vs Rubber, again. This is not like Nami's comedy punches, since it was commented that Luffy got hurt even though he is rubber.

Garp's lumps vs Nami's lumps. Both are nearly identical and that's not factoring in Garp's nonsensical response as to why he can harm Luffy. Most of the Luffy-Garp interactions that took place are comedy-based.

Also seriously Haki is not a big deal. Sengoku who is now a Admiral in Chief (former Admiral) should by any means be able to control haki. But to be fair, it is still not clear that he can bypass df intangibility.

Also the small debate about "facts" or "guessing", tbh we are ALL guessing here. Until Oda let them fight each other. Or if a infobox is used.

Haki is very rare in the OPverse. Out of the Shichibukai, only Hancock has been confirmed to have it. Out of MHQ, I think only one character has been confirmed to have it. Out of the Whitebeard Pirates, only Whitebeard, Vista, Jozu, and Marco have been confirmed to have Haki. Out of all the high-tier fighters that exist in these 3 groups alone, you have about 5 confirmed Haki users within a group containing at least 25 high-tier fighers (Whitebeard + WB's 14 Captains + the 3 Admirals + Sengoku + Garp + 8 Shichibukai + etc.). That's a percentage no greater than 20%.

That would be a valid argument if they were as important as Sengoku and Garp. They are not. I don't need to explain it to you because I'm sure you know that yourself.
Maybe if Tsuru was a Fleet Admiral 2 and Momonga was a Hero of the Marines 2.

And your saying your reasoning is far from flawless? Jinbei too was saved by Oda and we know he's strong. Yet Jinbei is weaker than any of the Admirals. The same holds true for other characters such as Buggy, Crocodile, and Marco.

Sengoku being the Fleet Admiral and Garp being the "Hero of the Marines" doesn't equate to them being the most important marines. The most important marines are the 3 Admirals, specifically Akainu. I don't need to explain it to you because I'm sure you know that yourself.

And yes, most of the things you have written is true. However, I can't turn a blind side and say something like - "until it's shown, it doesn't exist", because Oda hints stuff through his story, and then there are some Shonen laws and guidelines to consider.

What do "shounen laws and guidelines" have to do with the battledome?

 

[Omnion_1990]

to the person who said this:

Garp never fought Roger to a draw. The only person who ever could was Whitebeard, and he's dead now. Prime Garp also had to tagteam with Sengoku in order to take down Shiki, a pirate in the same league as Roger, yet confirmed to be weaker than him.

He fought roger enough to almost kill him, even roger said so himself. And you said Garp tag teamed with sengoku to take down shiki, thats why shiki got f*cked up royally and garp didnt have a scratch on him.

Im pretty sure garp himself could have mullered shiki, its just that because it was marineford sengoku got involved to stop there being even more damage. Also we didnt see the fight.

Imo even though i still think garp is one of the strongest characters in one piece we still havent seen him PROPERLY dish it out. and yes garp CAN bypass df abilities, he did with luffy and with marco:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/567/18-19/

and imo that was a LOVE PUNCH he gave marco, instead of the nuke warhead he was going to hit luffy with. a LOT of logia class df users cannot take punishment as they never get it due to being logia, im pretty sure garp could kill someone.

whats scary about garp is he was offered an admiral position and he DOESNT have a df ability. id say hes pretty damn strong. i think oda is saving an epic garp fight seeing as garp vs akainu was stopped.

Going on topic i think it goes as follows:

1. Sengoku
2. Garp
3. Akainu - Kizaru
4. Aokiji

Thing is i dont see lava being superior to light but aces fire matched with aokijis ice and akainus lava > aces fire so therefore akainu ability > aokiji ability.

I think sengokus body in his buddha form is inv to dfs - or he has resistance. in an all out slaughter fest garp would beat sengoku with sengoku not using his df. with his df i think his shockwaves would do it.

 

[BlackHair]

Greatest attack force is just the literal translation. Strongest is a perfectly acceptable one, which was used in the case for Aokiji in chapter 303. And another adjective was used about Aokiji in the databook anyway, one that translates to strongest.

I don't see how this disproves my earlier post. The term strongest is used for the rank "Admiral", not for AoKiji or any other individual. In that case Garp and Sengoku shouldn't be excluded.

Furthermore, Garp hasn't showcased the firepower the Admirals have displayed.

I think it is pretty much clear that Oda is saving him for later. But you are right, he didn't show us anything. Neither his skills or trying and failing. Leaving Luffy vs Garp out.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that current WB is clearly stronger than any of the 3 Admirals.

I respect ur opinion, but likewise you can't convince me WB < Admiral. This is not the thread for this discussion, so I will leave it out.

Garp never fought Roger to a draw.

It is hinted that Garp fought him evenly. Roger: "The two of us have killed each other many times. I can't find a better conclusion than evenly.

Prime Garp also had to tagteam with Sengoku in order to take down Shiki, a pirate in the same league as Roger, yet confirmed to be weaker than him.

Had to? No that's wrong. By Garp and Sengoku tag-teaming Shiki's loss was guaranteed. With that they won with less effort.

1) Same case with WG Alliance (MHQ + 7 Warlords) vs WB Alliance. The two forces of WG didn't had to fight together to beat the WB pirates. MHQ could have done the job on their own. It's just that by tag-teaming the success rate went up in their favour.

2) The Admirals didn't had to team up together to block one of WB's attack. It's just with three of them, they can do the job easier.

Garp's lumps vs Nami's lumps. Both are nearly identical and that's not factoring in Garp's nonsensical response as to why he can harm Luffy. Most of the Luffy-Garp interactions that took place are comedy-based.

Almost every time Luffy's rubber intangibility was bypassed, there was a comment on that. Either from Luffy himself or of any other character.

BB vs Luffy - commented by Croco
Garp vs Luffy - commented by Sanji
Garp vs Luffy - commented by Luffy
Sento vs Luffy - commented by Chopper
Boa Sister vs Luffy - commented by Luffy
etc

You will have hard time finding comments of bypassing on Nami's hits. Sure as Garp punched Luffy in W7 his wound got big as Nami's, since the scene was for comedy purpose. But the damage of Garp's punch was real. Sanji's comment is proof of that. Without his comment, I would have agreed with you. Anyway, if you don't want to accept this, you will have to at least accept this. On that page, there is no hint of comedy. Garp can use haki, that's proven fact by now. Sengoku can't use haki until said/displayed otherwise.


My argument: Garp should be around WB's equal level. Thus (slightly) stronger than the Admirals. Since none of the Admirals could have defeated WB in a fair 1vs1. Also he can use Haki to bypass intangibility. Anyway, enough off topic from me. Any further discussion will be posted by me in this thread.

Within the Admirals, I believe Kizaru is the strongest.

 

[Wrath]

I think it's Aokiji, but that's purely a gut choice because there's no evidence one way or the other.

 

[RezzieThaRapper]

Aokoji...

Because I like him...

And I think he could use his ice like a mirror and reflect Kizaru's attacks (purely speculating)

And I think Magma wouldn't beat him, I think pure fire has a chance, but when it comes to magma, Aokoji can cool it down instantly and turn it to rock

 

[St Michael]

Exactly. It depends of how cold could be Ao Kiji powers.

Absolute Zero would cool down Aka Inu (and his lava) to a spicy ice cream.

And I don't really see lasers beating him. Of course , ice can't really beat lasers either.

The 3 of them are pretty strong against other opponent (maybe Kizaru and Aka Inu are stronger in those cases) but Ao Kiji has the best match-up of the 3 against another.

I got the feeling that my last sentence is kinda weird , but I hope it's understandable.

 

[BlackHair]

Well Magma was said to be even hotter than Fire and we saw how fast he reduced that giant ice block to nothing. So I don't think AoKiji could turn magma back to rock.

On a another note, I believe Akainu used haki to overpower Ace's fire.