Politics Protests in the wider Arab world

Pride~

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I´m glad that Germany decided not to get involved in the military actions against Gaddafi. Seriously, what happened and Lybia during the past few weeks and days is really sad and inhuman but I believe that Germany shouldn´t get involved in the internal matters of another sovereign country. Germany doesn´t need another war. It´s bad enough that german soldiers fight and die against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
 

NNM

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And what you call a small problem is just some people who are trying to get their liberty back. I don't think we have the same sence of what is small and what is not.
It's the same Lybians who said "we don't need your help to get ourselves a freedom". Yet, UN forces it's way into internal fight. How old is Gadaffi? Another 5-7 years and he'll die. Lybians will get their freedom eventually and more peacefully. No need to behead children just beacause they are fighting in sandbox.
 

k-dom

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Because nobody really cares. You forgot to add he sponsored Sarcozy too. Oh, wait... I can see the pattern now.
Contrary to Kadhaffi, Sarkozy needs to be reelected next year. And is so low in the poll right now that he has to make forget what he did 3 years ago and how he miserably failed to treat Tunisia and Egypt revolution. That's why he has put so much energy playing the good guy. I agree it's terribly cinycal but at least it helped the lybian revolution
 

NNM

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Contrary to Kadhaffi, Sarkozy needs to be reelected next year. And is so low in the poll right now that he has to make forget what he did 3 years ago and how he miserably failed to treat Tunisia and Egypt revolution. That's why he has put so much energy playing the good guy. I agree it's terribly cinycal but at least it helped the lybian revolution
This is actually what I am talking about. The UN may continue their undercover games, I don't mind, but attacking a sovereign country in a daylight without a proof is a no-no.
 

k-dom

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It's the same Lybians who said "we don't need your help to get ourselves a freedom". Yet, UN forces it's way into internal fight. How old is Gadaffi? Another 5-7 years and he'll die. Lybians will get their freedom eventually and more peacefully. No need to behead children just beacause they are fighting in sandbox.
So far, it seems to me that they were quite happy to have some external support. Maybe because if they lose like they were going to be their life expentancy would be much more shorter that 5-7 years...
On a more global aspect, Lybian revolution being unsuccesful would be proof that brutal force is good against the current protests in other Arab countries. As a proof we have seen what happen in Barhein and Yemen. Arab countries need more democracy, Tunisia and Egypt put seeds of hope. Let's not Lybia burn these seeds.


This is actually what I am talking about. The UN may continue their undercover games, I don't mind, but attacking a sovereign country in a daylight without a proof is a no-no.
There are plenty of proofs you just don't want to see them.
 
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Akainu

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I´m glad that Germany decided not to get involved in the military actions against Gaddafi. Seriously, what happened and Lybia during the past few weeks and days is really sad and inhuman but I believe that Germany shouldn´t get involved in the internal matters of another sovereign country. Germany doesn´t need another war. It´s bad enough that german soldiers fight and die against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
indeed it is very fortunate, however the way this was achieved was remarkably stupid and also involved unbelievable horse-trading (no german awacs participation over the mediterranean but over Aafghanistan, yh right...)

It's the same Lybians who said "we don't need your help to get ourselves a freedom". Yet, UN forces it's way into internal fight. How old is Gadaffi? Another 5-7 years and he'll die. Lybians will get their freedom eventually and more peacefully. No need to behead children just beacause they are fighting in sandbox.
the Libyans said they don't need help at first. then more and more were calling for this no-fly-zone that is now established because Gadaffi was using his airforce against demonstrators directly.
Also do you really believe that? once Muamar al Gadaffi dies people will be free? just like in Syria one of his many sons could have taken over power and then? another 50 years without liberty?
even if his successor would have made some reforms - like he did in his early years - there's no certainty in this, not even in the 5-7 years :darn
 

NNM

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So far, it seems to me that they were quite happy to have some external support. Maybe because if they lose like they were going to be their life expentancy would be much more shorter that 5-7 years...
On a more global aspect, Lybian revolution being unsuccesful would be proof that brutal force is good against the current protests in other Arab countries. As a proof we have seen what happen in Barhein and Yemen. Arab countries need more democracy, Tunisia and Egypt put seeds of hope. Let's not Lybia burn these seeds.
I don't see happy rebels dancing in the streets, nor happy Lybians in Tripoli. May be because they're being bombed as well as Gadaffi's forces? Nice. You keep talking, like democracy is a good thing. I can assure you - not for every country in this world. I saw a revolution in a neighborhood countries. Situation there is far from ideal. Things just got worse.

There are plenty of proofs you just don't want to see them.
You are just shaking the air. I already told you what I would take as a proof. The videos of killed civilians, firefights, etc.


indeed it is very fortunate, however the way this was achieved was remarkably stupid and also involved unbelievable horse-trading (no german awacs participation over the mediterranean but over Aafghanistan, yh right...)
I see that's why nobody veto'ed this operation. Horse-trading. Okay.

Also do you really believe that? once Muamar al Gadaffi dies people will be free? just like in Syria one of his many sons could have taken over power and then? another 50 years without liberty?
even if his successor would have made some reforms - like he did in his early years - there's no certainty in this, not even in the 5-7 years :darn
So, do you believe that after UN kills Gadaffi people will be free? Lmao, the second-in-force clan in Lybia will take his place then. Beacuse they will have most of the supporters. Different mentality, see?
 
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Roflkopt3r

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I´m glad that Germany decided not to get involved in the military actions against Gaddafi. Seriously, what happened and Lybia during the past few weeks and days is really sad and inhuman but I believe that Germany shouldn´t get involved in the internal matters of another sovereign country. Germany doesn´t need another war. It´s bad enough that german soldiers fight and die against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Imagine Germany in 1935 had not prepared for war but only for killing all jews in camps.
Would you have said "There should be no military intervention into a sovereign country"? From todays point of view, certainly not. And that's the lesson we should learn from it...
There is a severe difference from Lybia and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the western nations decided to engage and decided what was supposed to happen with Afghanistan later.
In Lybia, there is a clear, huge opposition and all the Nato would do is helping those people out. There would be no need for a long occupation either, because this is a war between a state faction and it's citizens, it would be a more conventional war which can find an end other than guerilla wars against non-governmental forces like Al-Quaida and Taliban.
This is most definitly a war with a clear, justified motive and with a clear perspective on how it will end and how it will be transitioned afterwards. The west would not have to do anything than fighting the war and leaving the country to a new, legit government which will rise from the people who want this kind of government!

This is nothing like Afghanistan and Iraq and forbids most comparison to it.
 

k-dom

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Akainu

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I see that's why nobody veto'ed this operation. Horse-trading. Okay.
that German interior politic you obviously have even less a clue about, so I'm trying to explain:
Germany does not want to send troops, i.e. its airforce to Libya, not even to survey the no-fly-zone. so because they want to help their allies, they send this same survey unit called AWACS to Afghanistan instead of Libya = cow-trading, got it?

So, do you believe that after UN kills Gadaffi people will be free? Lmao, the second-in-force clan in Lybia will take his place then. Beacuse they will have most of the supporters. Different mentality, see?
oh I never claimed that Libyan people will be free when Gadaffi is dead. apart from one of his sons being alive it still is long process to bring freedom and stability just like in egypt and tnesia. I just don't see why waiting 5-7 years in Gadaffis terror should be better.

edit. also here is a picture with more than a handfull of people. now tell me it doesn't count because there is no proof it was taken in Libya. there is no proof the people are pro-Gadaffi either anyway, but go on, go on.
 
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NNM

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Since you want proof, I just translate the headtitles
http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01012326456-liesse-et-impatience-a-benghazi-et-tobrouk
Joy and impatience in Benghazy and Tobrouk (after the resolution voting)
1-2-3 people. I already said this doesn't count.

Why, there are only 1-2-3 people on this photo as well? Please show me at last thousands pepolple in Beengazi, Tobruk etc. And as I said you can't be happy while being bombed.

AND I enjoyed comments under this one. Looks like there are French people who share my point of view.



that German interior politic you obviously have even less a clue about, so I'm trying to explain:
Germany does not want to send troops, i.e. its airforce to Libya, not even to survey the no-fly-zone. so because they want to help their allies, they send this same survey unit called AWACS to Afghanistan instead of Libya = cow-trading, got it?
So, am I still right?:eyeroll

oh I never claimed that Libyan people will be free when Gadaffi is dead. apart from one of his sons being alive it still is long process to bring freedom and stability just like in egypt and tnesia. I just don't see why waiting 5-7 years in Gadaffis terror should be better.
Revolutions are always more bloody than political games. And what's Gadaffi's terror? Was he robbing his people? Killing meaninglessly? I'm not informed about how poor people are in that country. Enlighten me.
 
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Akainu

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So, am I still right?:eyeroll
right about? it was a completly diffrent topic and had nothing to do with what I wrote, so not sure what you were aiming for...


Revolutions are always more bloody than political games. And what's Gadaffi's terror? Was he robbing his people? Killing meaninglessly? I'm not informed about how poor people are in that country. Enlighten me.
again you go into a totally delusive direction with bringing up robbing, which is not neccessarily what terror is. actually he's been robbing the Libyan people since he's living in wealth from all the oil and his peoplethe Libyans are jobless and poor to a large degree.
As for killing, yes, that's exactly what he does (1, 2) he imprisioned, executed and otherwise killed ("car accidents") and still kills people that opposed him to an extent that no public opposition was possible out of fear, i.e. the terror of his regime[/quote]
 

NNM

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again you go into a totally delusive direction with bringing up robbing, which is not neccessarily what terror is. actually he's been robbing the Libyan people since he's living in wealth from all the oil and his peoplethe Libyans are jobless and poor to a large degree.
As for killing, yes, that's exactly what he does (1, 2) he imprisioned, executed and otherwise killed ("car accidents") and still kills people that opposed him to an extent that no public opposition was possible out of fear, i.e. the terror of his regime
First, every country kills people that oppose it. Even USA, even nowadays. Face it. Now, don't make me bring back all that history back again.

Talking about robbing. You are completely wrong here. I'll just qoute wiki:

"Libya's population includes 1.7 million students, over 270,000 of whom study at the tertiary level.[179] Basic education in Libya is free for all citizens,[180] and compulsory to secondary level. The literacy rate is the highest in North Africa; over 82% of the population can read and write

Today, high oil revenues and a small population give Libya one of the highest GDPs per capita in Africa and have allowed the Libyan state to provide an extensive level of social security, particularly in the fields of housing and education.[156] Many problems still beset Libya's economy however; unemployment is the highest in the region at 21%, according to the latest census figures.[157]

Compared to its neighbors, Libya enjoys a low level of both absolute and relative poverty. Libyan officials in the past six years have carried out economic reforms as part of a broader campaign to reintegrate the country into the global capitalist economy.[158] This effort picked up steam after UN sanctions were lifted in September 2003"

Graphics there are also showing that their demographics is also improving, poverty lessens. And most of the unemployed people are jobless because their education level is too high(You don't need thousands of lawyers for a 6 million population in a desert, you need farmers). That's why immigrants work for them.
 
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Akainu

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oh please, bring back the history and show me a case of Bush ordering to kill Al Gore, John Kerry or Barack Obama. or the latter ordering the tea party movement to be erradicated. should I go on? because on this interior political level I'm fairly certain there's nothing to be found and if you could it would actually help me a lot.

since this is the protests in the wider arab world thread though and not about the USA let me add something to turn this back on topic:
there's news now about protests spreading to Syria with the usual cycle of killed demonstrators and mourning protests I wonder where that will go.
 

NNM

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oh please, bring back the history and show me a case of Bush ordering to kill Al Gore, John Kerry or Barack Obama. or the latter ordering the tea party movement to be erradicated. should I go on? because on this interior political level I'm fairly certain there's nothing to be found and if you could it would actually help me a lot.
So if Barack Obama took some hired guns and tried to overtake Bush he wouldn't have been killed? He'll be in Guantanamo, like many others. That's exactly what's going on in Lybia.
 

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Firstly I don’t think this resolution is altruism in any sense of the word. There seems a misconception in most people’s minds that states are like people and they carry out acts out of compassion.

Nobody not France, nor Britain nor America is going out there out of compassion for the populace. It's a combination of commercial interest, the hope of political gains at home (Sarkozy and Cameron) and also I think the main issue with the European powers, is they need to be seen as able to project power and stabilise their borders after the debacle they had with Bosnia, and that's probably why they were the driving forces behind this move (the two strongest military forces in Europe in any case).

I dont think its the right to do, nor is it the right time to do it. My main problems with the no-fly zone are:

1. The air strikes will kill civilians. “Collateral damage” it’s already being stated as. Whats the difference between Gadaffis collateral damage and the France and Britain’s? Nothing, its both killings.

2. His ground forces are the real danger to the revolution, and the only way to effectively stop them is with putting in ground forces yourself, someone no is willing to do so effect of the no-fly zone will not be immediately felt.

3. The revolt is now permanently indebted to foreign powers. Which is different from what happened with Tunisia and Egypt, will the interests of the Libyans be put above the commercial interests of foreigner states? Now, I doubt that to be the case. The debt will be called if Gadaffi falls.

Gadaffi is a psycho, we all know that. However other states should not be militarily involving itself in an internal revolution. It is not a humanitarian crisis yet. So the UN shouldn’t be involved yet. Saleh in Yemen is a psychos as well, so is the Al-assad family in Syria as are the gulf royalty. Is no one going to intervene to help the protests in Bahrain or the killings in Yemen? Will we see the UN militarily taking sides in the Ivory Coast stand off? The problem with supporting an armed uprising against a state no matter how brutal that state is, that it sets a moral precedent to do it in other countries as well, not only when commercial interests regarding oil are threatened.

In a completely Machiavellian sense, while I fully support the revolution if it fails, so be it. Revolts have come and gone. The Bahraini revolt is failing, no is saying a word. There will be more arrests, more torture, more killings in that secluded paradise. The same with the crazy situation in yemen, no is saying a word about the fall of Saleh and his authoritarian and corrupt regime. Gadaffi because of his reputation and his anti-western stance,

Another thing to note is, the revolt against Gadaffi is not a peaceful one. Its not the same as Egypt nor Tunisia. He is not shooting at people who are just walking down the streets like before, that side has already lost. He is shooting at people who are shooting back. When guns are picked up, both sides are equally reprehensible (i.e. I doubt the revolters are being kind to innocent civilian gadaffi supporters...yes he has them).

In any case, since it has already begun, I hope it helps the revolution against Gadaffi. And hopefully whatever succeeds him will help the people of Libya more.

Edit: Another problem i think is Saudi Arabia. Token support from its satellite states will not do. Egypt has its own problems to take care of, the other regional power are the Saudi’s. So having their support is crucial for any sort of arab legitimacy, but it seems they are not about to give it (naturally they do not want to set a precedent of overthrowing arab leaders). And how willing will the Saudi’s be to pick of up the oil slack if the libyan pipes are closed? The world’s economic recovery could hinge on that.
 

Pride~

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Imagine Germany in 1935 had not prepared for war but only for killing all jews in camps.
Would you have said "There should be no military intervention into a sovereign country"? From todays point of view, certainly not. And that's the lesson we should learn from it...
There is a severe difference from Lybia and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the western nations decided to engage and decided what was supposed to happen with Afghanistan later.
In Lybia, there is a clear, huge opposition and all the Nato would do is helping those people out. There would be no need for a long occupation either, because this is a war between a state faction and it's citizens, it would be a more conventional war which can find an end other than guerilla wars against non-governmental forces like Al-Quaida and Taliban.
This is most definitly a war with a clear, justified motive and with a clear perspective on how it will end and how it will be transitioned afterwards. The west would not have to do anything than fighting the war and leaving the country to a new, legit government which will rise from the people who want this kind of government!

This is nothing like Afghanistan and Iraq and forbids most comparison to it.
You can´t compare Nazi Germany and Gaddafi. What Germany did was much more devastating. We´re not talking about millions of people whose life are threatened. What´s happening in Lybia is terrible, but not worth an interferrance by other countries. On the other hand, it was/would have been justified to fight against the Nazis because they did far worse things.

A war between the state and it´s citizens. How do you know that all citizens are against Gaddafi? Do you have any statistic to back that claim up. There could also be citizens supporting Gaddafi.

There´s another point, what is the clear goal and perspective after the war? Who´s gonna rule Lybia then? And what political system will be installed? Who will decide that? I haven´t read about that so far.

Everyone accepted Gaddafi for over 40 years. He was always a psycho and a criminal. And suddenly the world changes their mind? That´s kinda strange if you ask me.
 

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Well, it is true that there will be casualties either way (ideally civilian collateral damage is reduced with the intervention of the UN though) but at the very least a difference can be made as to who (gadaffi or the rebels) comes out on top. The rebels went on the line to finally end Gadaffi's reign, there are plenty of people who oppose Gadaffi within Libya (at least from what I heard) and the rebels were actively asking the UN for help (again, from what I heard). In that sense it is not like the west is outright imposing itself over an unwilling nation. IMO if there were ever the proper conditions to intervene and help a group to end a 40 year dictatorship then those were it. I just don't see how it can get better than that so to speak. If Libya's conditions were still not good enough to intervene then conditions to ever intervene simply do not exist in any plausible form.
 

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You can´t compare Nazi Germany and Gaddafi. What Germany did was much more devastating. We´re not talking about millions of people whose life are threatened. What´s happening in Lybia is terrible, but not worth an interferrance by other countries. On the other hand, it was/would have been justified to fight against the Nazis because they did far worse things.

A war between the state and it´s citizens. How do you know that all citizens are against Gaddafi? Do you have any statistic to back that claim up. There could also be citizens supporting Gaddafi.
Yeah he is just torturing and killing people for their opinions and opposing him and oppressed them hard enough to have them now leading a civil war against him. Certainly no reason to worry for us :eyeroll

Of course not all Lybians are against Gadaffi, just like not all Germans were against Hitler and not all Russians were against Stalin. But there is a very legit and very huge movement within the Lybian people that is fighting for their human rights, democracy and their lifes. There is more than enough reason to assist them.

Actually I am pretty shocked that this is still a matter of discussion. Look how democracy started! All bloody and in rebellion and nobody would doubt the french revolution in it's origin to be a very good thing.
And so, right here, we have this extraordinarily similar case to it in Lybia, and democrats are wondering whether they should fight for democracy there and help out the opposition or just let the dictator murder his people. What a saddening scene and what a mournful state of democratic societies.
 
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I think that is a bit of an exaggeration.... The discussion should always be there considering the implications of whatever decision they make. There are still plenty of things which can go wrong in Libya as far as the revolution and intervention goes. Only time will actually tell whether the decision to intervene was the correct one unfortunately(there are plenty of examples about democratic societies intervening in other countries for democracy's sake and failing after all). Hopefully things will work out for positive change.

___________________________
For me one of the more important aspects of the current decision to intervene is that it will help continue what was started by the Egypt events. The events which took place in Egypt were after all an inspiration so to speak for similar things to happen in other places. The current UN intervention will help to keep this waves of change strong. Had the UN not intervened then perhaps things would have lost a bit of momentum or even reached a complete halt. Still, hopefully not all countries under similar circumstances will expect help from the UN seeing as it would really be hard to do something similar in more places.
 
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