Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Sayaendo]

I may be wrong but I find Toriko pace much more higher than the other 3 in question. Especially after kewl0210 comment.

Spoiler

his menu is quite well advanced, especially if the cola becomes the drink, komatsu has found his real place in the tandem, we know already the main antagonists, about the eclipse...

So in term of devlopment Toriko is already pretty much mature

Oh boy, I had to register just because I wanted to reply to this so bad!

Anyway I disagree. Sure, unlike One Piece and Naruto, Toriko wasn't planned ahead. It's pretty much invented on the spot (it's blatantly obvious with things like the capture levels only going higher and higher. 92? Remember the incredible level 5 Galala Croc?). So by default, you can't judge Toriko's pace by looking at what is already out. Toriko can suddenly decide he wants to replace an ingredient with a new one because it tastes better. Toriko can discover some new type of food to add to the full course (Toriko is so silly, this is perfectly possible). Komatsu can develop his own full course, or even develop someone ELSE's full course (like, a diet one for a fat person, or one for Toriko's pet, etc). The possibilities are as varied as the author, and he can freely improvise with no self-control.
The world of Toriko is not nearly as coherent as the one for OP, which has both good and bad, but in the end it means Toriko will have insanely steady popularity rise (you can't have a crying Nami or a Marineford for a boom in popularity, but each and every monster, ingredient you add adds to the world's detail).

This is all pure speculation so I hey what do I know. But what I'm trying to say is, where One Piece has a world and keeps detailing it more and more, Toriko is in a vacuum space which can continue to expand indefinitely. They're not the same and shouldn't be compared in terms of popularity acceleration.

 

[kewl0210]

I have to disagree with that Sayendo. There is actually a TON of foreshadowing in the very first chapters of Toriko. In chapter 1 Toriko mentions he has "one ingredient already decided" and like 60-something chapter later he explains that he meant GOD. He mentions being trained by the President (which he calls "old man") in the chapter Coco shows up in, chapter 8 or so, who doesn't appear for about 100 chapters. Zebura and Sani are mentioned early on, too. He actually went out of his way to foreshadow things in the first few chapters to show how much is planned out. There are still quite a few things that haven't been revealed, too. Specifically the Four Heavenly Kings' backstory and a whole lot of the overall mythology, which this current arc is only starting to touch on with this "birdman" thing.

Those first few beasts they made clear were "easy" for Toriko and the others and the only reasons they had trouble were because they had to protect somebody while doing it, or keep the thing from being destroyed or poisoned something. Then later they talk about how the people with Gourmet Cells get a stronger to help explain his rate of improvement. Also, about how before the series timeline started there was some kind of "long pause" where the Four Heavenly Kings weren't active for a long time which hasn't been explained yet.

But, like I said, One Piece has had many years to expand its world and its depth. And at this point in time in Toriko's life cycle it wasn't even close to that yet. It could get some of those things which make One Piece so great, eventually. But of course, OP is the most popular manga... ever, I think. (What was it? Like it surpassed Dragonball in total sales, but it has many more volumes than Dragonball so people say they're hard to compare.) Anyhow, it is specualtion. And the ability for it to catch on and be really big I think is good. At least to like, Bleach levels (when people liked Bleach a little more).

 

[Sayaendo]

I didn't mean to say there is no foreshadowing.. a series with no mystery is dead to me (reason why I think Oumagadoki failed, but that's a different subject). God, four heavenly kings, birdmen etc. are huge in making the series intriguing right now (the reason why we're reading almost), and they'll mean nothing once they are fully revealed and over with. Where Toriko's strength lies is that years from now there will be a huge lexicon of monsters, ingredients and natural phenomenons where each was barely mentioned in one chapter or even one page or one panel. It would be the equivalent of constantly adding more and more and more and more Devil Fruit powers instead of introducing things like Haki.

Still, you're right in that it's still early and Toriko CAN become the thing that adds Haki instead of more DFs, I just don't see it happening (it's not needed to enjoy the series).

I'm having trouble following my own argument now so I'll stop there. I won't bother defending this if you find inconsistencies somewhere.

 

[RocketWobbuffet]

■BOY (Not sure if this is Hareulya BOY?)

It is. The series ended in 1998.

 

[StrangerAtaru]

I don't think TORIKO will be the new ONE PIECE, sure it will be part of the Big 3, likely replacing BLEACH which has been (IMHO) boring and heck.. I can even see NARUTO ending soon, I mean soon like in maximum 5 years unless Kishimoto puts a BLEACH on us.
I mean sure, TORIKO seems like a nice story, but ONE PIECE was ranked high since its very beginning, I don't know about volumes sold but its TOC ranking was high always, whilst TORIKO has struggled to keep in top 5.
Also I think whether a manga triumphs or not has a lot to do with how the series are marketed, i.e. ONE PIECE just came in the right moment, WSJ known for using new authors (Well, at least that used to be WSJ motto, I don't see many newbie mangakas doing quite as well nowadays) had to pimp a series (ONE PIECE) in an era with no Dragon Ball or SLAM DUNK in which Rurouni Kenshin was the lead manga ONE PIECE took WSJ by storm.
Sadly this isn't the case for TORIKO, WSJ has the big 3 (I still don't count BLEACH out quite yet) and around other 5 series with animes Bakuman, Mago, Beelzebub, SKET DANCE and Gintama and a manga with a lot of followers and no anime, REBORN! (Which I think is gonna end soon since it has no anime).
Now when ONE PIECE was serialized, 1997 this was the TOC:
ONE PIECE
■Rurouni Kenshin
■Jojo
■Leader Takeshi *BTW, by the author of TORIKO.
■Hoshin Engi
■JOKER
■I"s
■Kochikame
■WILD HALF
■BOY (Not sure if this is Hareulya BOY?)
■Hell Teacher Nube
■Ten-Ten Kun
■Midori No Makibao
■Makuhari
■Yu-Gi-Oh!
■Wrestling with Momoko
■Unmarried Witch Vivian
■Captain Tsubasa World Youth

Now, is there a difference between this TOC and the ones in this era? (Hint: There are, various differences)

First of all, the week One Piece started was the second week of Takeshi-kun, Shimabukuro's first notable series.

Secondly, you also sort of need to remember the period which OP started in. For the most part people were spelling "doom" for Jump once DB ended and the mid-90s were somewhat of a weird transitional period for the magazine. There were a lot of variety, from the "hits" (Kenshin most notably) to the weirder "cult series" that made up that period (Pt. 5 JoJo, BOY, Nube, Makibaou, Houshin Engi, Wild Half) to those that were still sort of finding themselves (most notably YGO, which was still in or approaching the end of it's first year and was not in "obsessive card-game mode" yet...I''s is a maybe here but the mangaka was well known yet it was still newish) to...well, downright bombs or series that didn't quite bring out the fullest in the mangaka. (a few weeks later, Konomi's first series "COOL: Rental Bodyguard" started...which essentially bombed and was his first taste of the magazine pre-PoT) The only real consistent between the eras is KochiKame...but that's the old tortoise of the magazine so it essentially is exempt from this equation.

The fact that OP essentially captured lightning in a bottle and exploded onto the Japanese scene so early and so amazingly is somewhat of a fluke and doesn't happen that often. It's especially even harder now than it was then, with so many series lasting way longer due to both the magazine's obsession with consistency and mangaka obsessing in stretching out their stories to no end (and their readers letting them get away with it), whereas many 90s series would be impressive to get to 200/250.

What this has to do with Toriko...well, it pretty much impressed Japan from go, but there is still a bit of time to see whether or not it really is something that is what we think it is since it debuted in '08.

 

[Samui]

Is there a list of the top 10 most sold manga ever? I've seen the top 5, with OP, DB, SD, etc. but I would like to know the 5 below them. Especially Bleach.

If there isn't, then Jump's of top 10 will be enough.

 

[ZayCon]

1. Dragon Ball 42 complete 150,000,000
2. One Piece 1 - 48 140,000,000
3. Kochikame 1 - 153 137,000,000
4. Slam Dunk 31 complete 114,000,000
5. Naruto 1 - 44 + related books 89,000,000
6. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Series ongoing 47,000,000 - 70,000,000
7. Fist of the North Star 27 complete 47,000,000 - 60,000,000
8. Kinnikuman 36 complete 53,000,000
9. Captain Tsubasa 37 complete + 18 ongoing 52,000,000
10. Rurouni Kenshin 28 complete 51,000,000
11. Bleach 1 - 34 50,000,000

Source: http://comipress.com/article/2008/12/31/3733

A little old, but I don't think it's changed very much, other than One Piece being first.

 

[Samui]

Hmm, it looks weird. Didn't Naruto enter the top 5 only last year with 100 million copies?

 

[susanoo13]

Naruto had as of the last volume being 55 I think about 105,000,000 copies printed and bleach passed Kinnikuman but that is only if we are dealing with printing and not sales, I don't know if what is stated here is also printings or sales.

 

[saladesu]

Considering they used the word "circulation", and the fact that the numbers are all nice round numbers, my guess is that those numbers are the number of copies printed rather than number of copies actually sold.

I think the discrepancy for Naruto that Samui mentioned might be because it includes "related books", meaning all the character data books and what not. They probably don't contribute to sales/printing numbers that much, but still.

 

[ruggia]

well, in terms of WSJ's top 10 manga ever, we have a more up-to-date one from Shuesiha's Media guide... (which was posted before)
http://adnavi.shueisha.co.jp/mediaguide/2010/m_comic/w_jump/index.html

Weekly Shounen Jump Top 10 Manga Sales (May 2010)

1. One Piece (186,500,000)
2. Dragon Ball (153,220,000)
3. Kochikame (141,940,000)
4. Slam Dunk (116,760,000)
5. Naruto (98,410,000)
6. Bleach (63,840,000)
7. Jojo (59,240,000)
8. Rurouni Kenshin (51,310,000)
9. HxH (50,330,000)
10. Prince of Tennis (43,780,000)

I think these are the number of copies sold as opposed to circulated...

 

[DestyNova4th]

Hi, I would like to know if that sales include the kanzenban edition of Dragon Ball and Slam Dunk. I say this because the average, counting only the tankoubon, is higher than One Piece.

 

[Kaiten]

If I remember correctly, Toriko was anointed the next great Jump series almost as soon as it started. It ranked in the top 5 almost every week for a very long time, the first two volumes were released on the same day. Then nothing really happened. The volumes sold well but never anything special. The anime kept getting delayed. It kept ranking high but wasn't automatically a top five series. Maybe the anime will give it a boost, turn it into a major hit, but I don't know.

For comparison: Toriko volume 14 and Shingeki no Kyojin volume 4 both came out two weeks ago. In that time Shingeki has more than doubled Toriko's sales. The reality is that Jump has had trouble developing new hits. Over the last five years or so, the most popular new series have been from magazines other than Jump.

 

[Finestela]

Kaiten, come on... Bakuman sells well enough... Just because it's not getting pimped as much as Toriko by the editors, we shouldn't discount its success.

 

[Kaiten]

I forgot about Bakuman

Depending on how you judge a series, Jump has had some success the last few years. A Shogakukan Award winner in Sket Dance. Beelzebub and Mago each have anime and strong sales. Toriko has (what I assume will be) one of those epic, endless shonen anime. Bakuman has had an anime and sells very well. But the best sellers among them, Bakuman, Mago, and Toriko are closer to Fairy Tail and Kekkaishi than One Piece and Naruto. I'm curious why the big success stories of the last few years are coming from magazines like Bessatsu Shonen Magazine, Morning 2, and GFantasy while Jump hasn't had a blockbuster hit in since Bleach launched ten years ago.

 

[Josl]

I'm curious why the big success stories of the last few years are coming from magazines like Bessatsu Shonen Magazine, Morning 2, and GFantasy while Jump hasn't had a blockbuster hit in since Bleach launched ten years ago.

Bad judgement?
They send the Author of Shingeki no Kyojin away because they thought it won’t work
For some reason they try to establish a football(soccer) series even tough the readers tell them they don’t want one and not to forget the premature ending of a few very good series with a lot of potential which should have been pimped instead.

 

[Finestela]

But those magazines only has a single hit series, while Jump has a number of strong series.

So far GFantasy's other series seem to be getting a bit of coattail from Kuro Shitsuji, but nothing of the sort is evident for Bessatsu Shounen Magazine or Morning 2...

I mean as much as I hate WSJ's well oiled machine (I've brought it up several times here), it does create an overall coattail effect for most of its series, and that's good for the other authors.

 

[Negative Syndicate]

There going to one shot by Asou Shuuichi (author of Boku to Kimi no Yuushagaku) on next issue.

 

[Finestela]

As much as I love Asou, I don't understand why won't they give guys like Dai Amon another chance... :/
I know that Sawai has been doing kiddie books lately, but Dai Amon really could use a job :/

 

[Negative Syndicate]

As much as I love Asou, I don't understand why won't they give guys like Dai Amon another chance... :/
I know that Sawai has been doing kiddie books lately, but Dai Amon really could use a job :/

Well, Dai Amon did release one shot on Miracle Jump.