Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

[Oberon]

Harisugawa in Mirror world #1 is now avaible: Click Here

Thx to Red-Hawk Edited Manga

 

[Asarii]

The bottom five are all veterans, and the new series are staying afloat (although it's probably because some aren't ranked yet). It's doing so well lately so it would only be time that Toriko would overtake OP. I'm selfishly that Oda-sensei is taking a hiatus, but it's for his health.

First it was Magico, and now it's ST&RS that's getting love in this thread. XD

I'm happy about Sket's rising graph but sad that it's the opposite for Mago.

 

[Kaiten]

I mentioned it in IRC a minute ago, but I really enjoyed chapter 1 of St&rs too. I really like the three leads, they may be typical slice of life characters, but I love slice of life manga. So it is a good fit.

 

[perroloco]

Haven´t read St&rs.. Hope it doesn´t turn into a figthing manga by chapter 9 XD

 

[Drmke]

Luckily it's set up to where that can't happen least not so early lol

 

[Asgaroth]

Luckily it's set up to where that can't happen least not so early lol

are you sure? the following may contain spoiler:

Spoiler: ST&RS chapter 1

he could be a alien child. thats the reason they came back to get him. he could have super pwer and fight against them or other aliens. thats the reason why he is so absorbed with the space stuff. maybe he was born on mars, that could be the reason for his first words...

just wanted to show, that nothing is impossible for a author.

 

[Drmke]

Obviously "anything" is possible for an author of any manga since they create the world they are drawing but it wouldn't make any sense for it to turn into a fighting manga so early with how he wrote the first chapter.

 

[xi0]

I was sort of underwhelmed by the first chapter of ST&RS. I can appreciate what it's trying to be, but I found it sort of predictable. I think it's one of those series that will grow on me.

 

[Mr. Prince]

I just finished reading Takamagahara and thought it was so-so. There were some parts I really enjoyed, like, for starters it was pretty dark and explicit! (e.g. the bad guy tied girls up in their undies and bra to some sorta "Wheel of [Mis]Fortune", throwing a knife at them in order to decide what to do next: completely undress them, rape them or draw their blood...) The art was also pretty damn nice. The author used different styles for different effects and even had some references to famous paintings, especially from Cubism!

Characters and story were okay, nothing outstanding. The main character's power was quite the downer.

Another thing that really annoyed me were two obvious drawing mistakes which could have easily been avoided. (The main character has a cast on his left arm. There was at least one scene where the arm was flipped and yet another one when the character all of a sudden had no cast at all... :/)

Altogether I'd say it was quite enjoyable nonetheless.

 

[pein1991]

Another thing that really annoyed me were two obvious drawing mistakes which could have easily been avoided. (The main character has a cast on his left arm. There was at least one scene where the arm was flipped and yet another one when the character all of a sudden had no cast at all... :/)

Good eye! I didn't even notice it until my second viewing.

Though I coulding read it looked quite boring until...

Spoiler

The BIG Knife came out!

 

[UHU]

Pure rankings:

01. Toriko
02. One Piece
03. Naruto
04. Beelzebub
05. Gintama
06. Hanasaka Ikkyuu
07. Inumaru Dashi
08. Magico
09. Medaka Box
10. Reborn!
11. Enigma
12. Nurarihyon no Mago
13. Kuroko no Basket

Kochikame is not ranked.
Ikkyu... I don't remember if it has more then 8 chapters now. If it does, I will put it in there and apologize.

Where does this idea of "pure ranking" come from?
How come a series needs 8 chapters to be "ranked"?

May I remind everyone that the whole summary of the Jump comes from editorial decisions (based on various things), and not only color pages?

 

[juUnior]

Many read One Piece, and many that read One Piece surely read Naruto, the number of people reading just Naruto, at least in Japan I think is low. So them coming over to read One Piece might not do much, but I am not sure, maybe they are in larger numbers then I think.

I'm not from Japan, I was surely writing from my own, pl perspective xd Naruto has much more fans than OP = before Dragonball had much more fans than Naruto = ppl were reading only one title <and to this 'community' I was referring to> When manga ended, ppl started to look for sth else to make up for their reading of Dragonball in this case <Naruto>.

 

[Josl]

How come a series needs 8 chapters to be "ranked"?

If you follow the rankings for a while than you will see that new series are placed randomly in the magazine and that on the 8th week they suddenly fall to the last position. Expect obviously the series who survive.

Where does this idea of "pure ranking" come from?

The Position of Color Pages is fixed. Therefore when a series gets color pages it gets the position where the color pages are. New series are also placed somewhere in the magazine until the 8th chapter. Kochikame is a special series which gets extra treatment and is also placed randomly. Cover is also obviously placed first or somewhere there when another series gets the lead color.
All those series which I just mentioned are excluded from the so called ranking. The other series make up the “pure” ranking
In Japan readers of the magazine send a questionary card back to Jump. In those Cards they choose the 3 series they liked best this week. In Jump they count the votes and place the Series according to those votes. The 8th week rule comes from 2chan where they decided on those rules after years of deduction. We are not 100% sure if they are right because nobody of the editorial staff ever confirmed the rule. The earliest ranking we would see anyway is in 3 weeks anyway because it needs time to count the votes plus produce the magazine.

May I remind everyone that the whole summary of the Jump comes from editorial decisions (based on various things), and not only color pages?

They will never place a series which ranked very bad somewhere at the top and the other way around. At best they would change the ranking one or two positions. However it gives a very good impression about how a series ranked 8 weeks ago.
If the Editorial department has to promote a series they do it with the help of color pages. If there is an anime, game or something else announcement they give it color pages. There is an arc climax for a popular series, they give it a color page.
The rest of the series are placed or at the very least the placement depends on the result of the votes from the readers.

 

[UHU]

If you follow the rankings for a while than you will see that new series are placed randomly in the magazine and that on the 8th week they suddenly fall to the last position. Expect obviously the series who survive.

Thank you for your answer. I have been following the rankings for 8 years now, so I hope I will help to prove false some of the theories that are going on here.

This "8th week" thing is not confirmed. For example, Dois Sol was 12th on the 7th week, then 14th on the 8th. The change is not that big. Grim was 15th on the 7th week, and 17th on the 8th week. Last example: in 2008, Chagecha was 16th on the 7th week, and then got canceled on the 8th week.

We have no reason to think that new series are placed randomly for as long as 7 weeks, and then ranked. There is no "8 weeks" rule.

The Position of Color Pages is fixed.

No, it isn't, their position can change too.

Kochikame is a special series which gets extra treatment and is also placed randomly.

We have no reason to think so.

In Japan readers of the magazine send a questionary card back to Jump. In those Cards they choose the 3 series they liked best this week. In Jump they count the votes and place the Series according to those votes.

I am well aware of that system, but series are not strictly placed according to those votes, even if they don't have color pages. The votes are one aspect in the decisions, but we cannot consider that even "pure rankings" are a direct reflect of those votes at one time.

Well, Eiichiro Oda said it better than me:

D: Oda-sensei!! My brother says that the order of the manga in Jump is decided by popularity. Is that true? (by Yasumo)

O: That's a fitting suspicion for a Jump reader. Since I get these fairly often, allow me to answer. To be precise, not quite. The order is decided every week by the Jump sub-chief editor. But it's true that the most popular series are placed in the front of the magazine. Also, sometimes he decides, we're pushing THIS one this week! I guess you could say it's the "order you could enjoy the magazine in". But of course, the only TRULY correct answer is to read it in the order YOU want.

When some series get an anime, it usually gets promoted by the editorial staff, which means it will be placed higher, color page or not. A real "pure ranking" would exclude all editorial decisions, so we would not have any "pure ranking" at all, as we cannot know their extent and the real results of votes.

The 8th week rule comes from 2chan where they decided on those rules after years of deduction. We are not 100% sure if they are right because nobody of the editorial staff ever confirmed the rule.

With my own experience, I can tell you it's bogus. We cannot be 100% sure, but in that case, I don't think we can be at least 5 % sure of it. So I think it would be better not to spend too much time on fake theories.

The earliest ranking we would see anyway is in 3 weeks anyway because it needs time to count the votes plus produce the magazine.

I agree with that.

If the Editorial department has to promote a series they do it with the help of color pages.

It's true, but not just with color pages. When Sket Dance got an anime, not only did it get more color pages, but its rankings suddenly got better too. I have many similar examples.

Moreover, color pages can also be proof of popularity.

The rest of the series are placed or at the very least the placement depends on the result of the votes from the readers.

The placement depends on the results of the votes from the readers, but we have to analyze it as it shows us trends. The editorial department often puts popular series first, but that doesn't mean that if manga X is 10th in a week, and Y is 11 in the same week, then X got more votes than Y 8 weeks ago. But if manga X has been 3th on average for a long time, then drops down to 10th on average, here it's significant of something.

To sum up: watching the Jump's summary to know the big trends of popularity in Japan is fine, but watching it like precise TV ratings is useless.

 

[Estranho]

I have to agree with UHU in this "8th week" stuff. I always questioned that, and no one could never give a ultimate reason to follow this rule.
And I didn't know this Oda's answer, this can say a lot of things to us.

I partially agree with the idea that a series' ranking doesn't represents its popularity entirely. In fact, it's true that a little modification of the editorial department is waited in every week, but I don't think that the difference in the real ranking and the ranking we see are big.
In my opinion, this difference should be around 2, 3, maybe 4 positions; more than that would be strange. And that would explain some facts in the past, like Kuroko's early days, when it always got Color Pages, but its position in the other weeks was pretty low. If the the sub-chief editor wanted to pimp the serie, why put it so low?

That said, I guess this UHU's post will start a pretty good discussion about our way to see the rankings. It's what I wanted to do in the past, but wasn't sucessful.

 

[Josl]

Thank you for your answer. I have been following the rankings for 8 years now, so I hope I will help to prove false some of the theories that are going on here.

This "8th week" thing is not confirmed. For example, Dois Sol was 12th on the 7th week, then 14th on the 8th. The change is not that big. Grim was 15th on the 7th week, and 17th on the 8th week. Last example: in 2008, Chagecha was 16th on the 7th week, and then got canceled on the 8th week.

We have no reason to think that new series are placed randomly for as long as 7 weeks, and then ranked. There is no "8 weeks" rule.

The Editors have the Rankings already after 2-3 weeks. When a series clearly fails they are going to place it already near the Bottom and when a series doesn’t fail they are going to place it near the top. BUT this isn’t a rule because it happened more than once that a series was “positioned” well during the 7 weeks and then suddenly plumed. I don’t remember which series exactly but someone who does do statics please show him.

No, it isn't, their position can change too.

Yes. I don’t know on which criteria the position of the color pages change but lead color is always first. Then there is a space about 2-4 series, second color, space about 2-5, third color page, space and sometimes a fourth color page.
Fact is that when a bottom series gets a color page it is higher than normal, but after the color page it gets USUALY back to bottom.
Think about it. Why giving it a color page and then give it back to the bottom when you want to promote it?

We have no reason to think so.

There was some kind of proof a few weeks ago but I forgot it. Someone who knows better than me please tell him what it was.

Well, Eiichiro Oda said it better than me:

Bleach is one of the most popular Mangas they have. Where is it now? He can decide to push a certain chapter a certain week but does it only SOMETIMES and only a certain series a certain week.

When some series get an anime, it usually gets promoted by the editorial staff, which means it will be placed higher, color page or not. A real "pure ranking" would exclude all editorial decisions, so we would not have any "pure ranking" at all, as we cannot know their extent and the real results of votes.

I think Magos second season started 3 weeks ago. It got a color page to announce it and where was it the past 2 weeks? If an Anime does push popularity it should start to rise a little 4-6 weeks from now.

With my own experience, I can tell you it's bogus. We cannot be 100% sure, but in that case, I don't think we can be at least 5 % sure of it. So I think it would be better not to spend too much time on fake theories.

After I started to follow the TOC I observed a few series that used to jump in the Rankings. Sometimes a series was ranked really high in the TOC even though nothing exiting happened this week BUT after looking back 8 weeks, something really amazing happened 8 weeks ago
I came to the conclusion even though it wasn’t always 100% accurate it did give a pretty good picture about how the result of the votes were 8 weeks ago
Let’s just watch Bleach. According to Bleach fans the last few chapters were really amazing BUT it did sink continually week after week. It should start to rise soon if those people were right and in 8 weeks it should be especially high because of the lead color if you can trust Bakuman

It's true, but not only with color pages. When Sket Dance got an anime, not only did it get more color pages, but its rankings suddenly got better too. I have many similar examples.

Yes an Anime does push also votes. A bigger Audience starts to follow the series weekly and the votes get higher, therefore the rank gets higher and color pages to promote it further. After an Anime announcement there can be also euphoria under fans who don’t vote for it always and they start to vote more often for it. Plus there can be a real good arc around the time the Anime started. The Edited Mangas were behind at that time so I can’t say exactly if that’s the case for Sket dance. Toriko is a good example for it. At the time the Anime started they introduced the last of the Kings and a really good arc started and soon(8 weeks) after that it started to took the first place.
Once again watch Mago. Second Season started, It got color but since then it is at or near the bottom. If the Anime start does push votes it should start to rise a little bit in the near future.

The placement depends on the results of the votes from the readers, but we have to analyze it as it shows us trends. The editorial department often puts popular series first, but that doesn't mean that if manga X is 10th in a week, and Y is 11 in the same week, then X got more votes than Y 8 weeks ago. But if manga X has been 3th on average for a long time, then drops down to 10th on average, here it's significant of something.

To sum up: watching the Jump's summary to know the big trends of popularity in Japan is fine, but watching it like precise TV ratings is useless.

Like I said already. After analyzing a few series I came to the conclusion that the 8 week rule isn’t 100% accurate but accurate enough. I don’t think anyone does analyze it religiously but most people see it as a trend. Once again lets observe Bleach

 

[Kaiten]

This discussion will always be a non-starter. There are objective, observable reasons to believe there is an eight issue delay while doubt has always been fueled by nothing more than speculation. The eight week delay was confirmed long ago by the same Shueisha insiders who post the TOC and chapter spoilers. Bakuman described the process of building the TOC in detail, including voting, the schedule for which results are tallied, the results shared with the mangaka, and when they are official enough to be reflected in the TOC. Chart placement for new series also confirm an eight week delay. New series have a relatively fixed place in the middle of the magazine for eight issues. Take Ikkyuu as an example. All new series, except short gag, get front color and cover, so discount chapter 1. After that, Ikkyuu has a true ranking of either fifth or seventh (exact position). After exactly eight issues, this pattern ended, with Ikkyuu dropping to the bottom five for it's first true ranking (issue 31) and rising back to the middle for it's second (issue 32). Please if there is any observable evidence to contradict the eight week delay, do share.

Simply put: kochikame's position reflects how it polls, but it hardly matters. It is one of the five best selling series ever, has a bronze statue dedicated to it in Tokyo, and has run for thirty five uninterrupted years. It will never be canceled, no matter how poorly it ever polls. Kochikame is an institution, one of the most famous manga ever. It would not make any sense to pull the plug after 1500 chapters.

All magazines work the same. The front and the middle are the most visible parts of the publication, thus magazines place lead articles there and charge the most to advertisers. Thus the first series always has colored pages, and another series is given color pages and placed in the center of the magazine. If more than two series have color pages, they are placed based on where Shueisha can charge the most for advertising

 

[Estranho]

The eight week delay was confirmed long ago by the same Shueisha insiders who post the TOC and chapter spoilers

I may be wrong, but aren't the spoilers and ToCs posted by distributors and magazine salers who get the edition before goes to the sale? If it was Shueisha insider, then the ToCs would come some days before they actually came; Sasaki has a pressed copy of the next week's volume 1 or 2 days before the published ToC.

 

[Mr. Prince]

I may be wrong, but aren't the spoilers and ToCs posted by distributors and magazine salers who get the edition before goes to the sale? If it was Shueisha insider, then the ToCs would come some days before they actually came; Sasaki has a pressed copy of the next week's volume 1 or 2 days before the published ToC.

For most parts, yes. BUT there are times that occasionally people pop up that claim to be insiders from Shueisha/WSJ or know someone from there. They usually announce stuff that will happen several weeks in the future which you simply can't know, if you're not behind the scenes (e.g. information about cuts and new series/author comebacks, weeks ahead, or long term trends for certain series).

I remember, for example, that during One Piece's War on the Summit we had an insider who foretold several events, giving one of Oda-sensei's assistants as his source. Guess what, all those predictions turned out true.

 

[Kaiten]

We get information that only an insider would know on a weekly basis. We usually know new series in advance of the announcements in magazine. The upcoming color page announcements. Upcoming cancellations. This is not information that would be available just by looking at the current issue.

Someone with some level of knowledge regarding how the TOC works has stated that there is an eight issue delay between the release of a chapter and when it's poll position is reflected in TOC. Obata corroborated the same thing in Bakuman. Looking at chart position also provides some circumstantial evidence for this. While none of the evidence would lead to a conviction in a court of law, it is observable supporting evidence. This debate has raged for years without any observable evidence, circumstantial or not, that could support the argument TOC position is determined in less than eight weeks. Refuting evidence does not admissibly prove a point of view, only cast doubt on another. It can't be the next week. Fans need a reasonable window of time to mail in postcards. There has never even been speculation about an alternate amount of time that it takes, nor any evidence to shed some light on how long it takes.