Character How strong is Atobe ... really?

[Kaoz]

You are right -- it does apply to both sides. What I'm seeing in this thread is that people hype up Sanada because of Rai or Black Aura...saying that Atobe can't cope with these techniques...

But you haven't provided anything that actually contradicts that claim except that he might possibly get a power up that allows him to deal with it, which is irrelevant to a discussion we are having now.

The point is that techniques in general evolve (on both sides). So if Sanada is superior technically right now, it does not mean he is better as both players will evolve technically -- BA will be obselete and so will AK.

It means he is better at this point in the series, and as we can't know what will happen in the future, that is what matters right now.

Also it's false to say that any aura/technique will become obsolete in the next match, Drive B for example lasted a long time, so did Kisarazu's Sky Inversion Drop Volley or even Tezuka Zone, just to name a few.

 

[Ninomiya]

He can always get an aura like Sanada.

Do you believe that Atobe can evolve and will become fodder?

I didnt notice this.
@LetalHawk. Dont be careless. Atobe will NEVER become fodder. He along with Fuji and Ryoma are THE most popular characters.

 

[Fayte]

You are right -- it does apply to both sides. What I'm seeing in this thread is that people hype up Sanada because of Rai or Black Aura.

It isn't hype, Sanada really IS that good. It is just the facts.

But look, I'm willing to say that Atobe and Sanada are approximately equal (its too close to call).

That's the problem. None of us are willing to say that. All the facts say otherwise.

I also believe -- and this isn't exactly factual -- that Atobe will end up in a tier similar to Tezuka. If I were to visualize an ending to the franchise, it would consist of Echizen joining the pros along with Tezuka and Atobe.

It isn't factual because it is a fantasy.

 

[Ninomiya]

I'm still not understanding why everyone's sleeping on Atobe just because he's not Rikkai or Yukimura or Echizen or whatever. Do you realize how good of a tennis player Atobe is? Genius be damned, this is the guy who used Muga without using Muga. He's the King of Tennis for a reason.

I'm not saying he's stronger than Sanada, but for him to beat Sanada wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Game done.

Listen. Nobody is sleeping on him. The nickname King still means nothing to the argument.
As the destined best in the series is only the Prince, and the Pierrot (Irie) walked all over him.

Finally, I am well aware how awesome Atobe is. Its just that Sanada is definetely better as of now.
Atobe is in Akutsu, Shiraishi, Tooyama, Niou, Fuji group. Not Yukimura Sanada group. That's all.

I even mentioned before in my posts that he shut down Ryoma in Muga like youve referred to. But him beating Sanada cant happen with what we have been shown.

---------- Post added at 08:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 AM ----------

It isn't hype, Sanada really IS that good. It is just the facts.

Im not even a Sanada fan but this is the case.

That's the problem. None of us are willing to say that. All the facts say otherwise.

@fdsjkl I am willing to say it. Only once Konomi shows us exactly HOW Atobe has a hope of overcoming Sanada. Since we cant see how Atobe takes out Rai and Black Aura then no. Saying they are equal is fiction. Pure fan-fic.



It isn't factual because it is a fantasy.[/QUOTE]

 

[fdsjkl]

Look, I understand where you guys are coming from. But, its like someone said,..., Drive B lasted a long time (against fodder opponents mainly) to establish Ryoma's identity. The way the canon goes, techniques are ephemeral.

This is why you cannot only compare characters based on techniques you think are better or worse. So fine, let me concede that perhaps Sanada's techniques counter Atobe's techniques.

I'm not willing to concede that Atobe's knack for clawing his way to match equality isn't stronger than Sanada's knack. Atobe's entire identity -- from when he was in England -- revolves around this knack. So yes, I think its safe to say that in terms of stamina and persistence Atobe is probably better than Sanada. We can debate this point, but I think even you will have to agree that this is likely true. Again, not saying that Sanada will let ppl walk over him...but Atobe losing 7-1 would be extremely extremely out of character. (In fact, you can make the argument that this is why the writers had Irie sandbag against Atobe).

Thus, if Sanada's technique is better right now, but Atobe's knack is better, its kind of a wash. If pressed, I would pick the tenacity over technique.

To put it another way. I could see Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 as a more plausible match than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. Even if Atobe is outclassed, he will probably take it to a tiebreak,..., where anything can happen.

 

[Fayte]

Look, I understand where you guys are coming from. But, its like someone said,..., Drive B lasted a long time (against fodder opponents mainly) to establish Ryoma's identity. The way the canon goes, techniques are ephemeral.

This is why you cannot only compare characters based on techniques you think are better or worse. So fine, let me concede that perhaps Sanada's techniques counter Atobe's techniques.

I know very much that techniques generally do not mean anything, and it is the overall skill and ability level of the opponent. However, Atobe is not on Yukimura's ability level. Thus, he would not handle the techniques the way Yukimura did.

Again, not saying that Sanada will let ppl walk over him...but Atobe losing 7-1 would be extremely extremely out of character. (In fact, you can make the argument that this is why the writers had Irie sandbag against Atobe).

Lol what? For one, it is the Yips. Secondly, it is the fact that Sanada DIDN'T let it walk all over him that made him break out of it. Atobe would have lost 7-0 to Yukimura.

To put it another way. I could see Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 as a more plausible match than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. Even if Atobe is outclassed, he will probably take it to a tiebreak,..., where anything can happen.

Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 is in the realm of "will never happen." Sanada has been crushing Atobe since before PoT1. Did you forget Atobe could do nothing against "Zan" until the Nationals? Atobe has been outclassed for years (specifically with Sanada), and there were no tiebreaks. Let's be real.

 

[fdsjkl]

Pl reread my post. I said Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 is more likely than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. I didn't say either scenario was likely. I base this off the fact that Atobe has a knack for getting matches to a tiebreaker.

I think the writers recognize that Atobe will never get bageled or breadsticked...thats why they had Irie sandbag when playing Atobe. Or gave Tezuka an injury, etc.

So the question is open...how good is Atobe?

 

[Ninomiya]

Look, I understand where you guys are coming from. But, its like someone said,..., Drive B lasted a long time (against fodder opponents mainly) to establish Ryoma's identity. The way the canon goes, techniques are ephemeral.

To be fair, Tezuka Zone lasted for ages. It still lasts as Niou used it effectively.
Atobe's 2 part smashes still last from Regionals til now. Effectively. So they arent really ephemeral as you say.

This is why you cannot only compare characters based on techniques you think are better or worse. So fine, let me concede that perhaps Sanada's techniques counter Atobe's techniques.

But we CAN. The reason we say only Yukimura, Tezuka and Ryoma can beat Sanada is coz only they can handle Rai. With only Yukimura being able to handle it with ease as we know of. We havent even brought Black Aura into it yet.
Drive B was returned coz it has a clear path for anyone that has excellent technique.
Though Atobe handled it, Drive D got the better of Atobe.
Drive B + Doubled Return went past Yukimura.
(Yukimura spat out Cool Drive, Drive A, Entaku Shot, Kamikakushi and others but Drive B still worked so your wrong about it being ephemeral).

I'm not willing to concede that Atobe's knack for clawing his way to match equality isn't stronger than Sanada's knack. Atobe's entire identity -- from when he was in England -- revolves around this knack.

Why are you letting your love for your character affect your opinion?
Sanada's knack for clawing his way to victory was strong too. Just the fact he survived the

Yips shows his knack is as strong as Ryoma's. Ryoma is someone who did better than Atobe for clawing their way to victory.

Personality does not help you when an opponent is outright better than you.
How can Atobe's personality return Rai?? Just tell us!

So yes, I think its safe to say that in terms of stamina and persistence Atobe is probably better than Sanada. We can debate this point, but I think even you will have to agree that this is likely true. Again, not saying that Sanada will let ppl walk over him...but Atobe losing 7-1 would be extremely extremely out of character.

Sanada losing 7-1 was IN character??

He lost that scoreline coz Konomi likely wanted readers to remember for SPoT that Ryoma and Yukimura were the top of the Middle School Tennis world.) He states this in Pair Puri Vol5 which happens when the losers return from the mountains. He wanted to underline Yuki's strength.

He makes it clear that Tezuka and Sanada got new techniques to return the level where Yukimura and Ryoma were at. With Tezuka being boosted even higher by having him crush Fuji.

(In fact, you can make the argument that this is why the writers had Irie sandbag against Atobe).

Maybe. But then again, we cant use that argument. As Konomi wanted to underline which HSers were powerful and which werent.
So he had Tokugawa take out Ryoma in what was probably not a full match but just Tokugawa pounding Ryoma, Oni doing the same to Kintaro and also crushing Momoshiro and Irie stamping out Atobe. With Tanegashima looking unphased at TMnK.

Just Konomi letting us know who was fodder and who wasnt. (Which I saw these obvious signs at the time lol).

Thus, if Sanada's technique is better right now, but Atobe's knack is better, its kind of a wash. If pressed, I would pick the tenacity over technique.

Not at all.
How does tenacity beat Rai + Black Aura? Yukimura showed great tenacity even shutting down Samurai Drive while Ryoma was in TMnK. Yet he didnt win.
Im sorry but right now in this series, Atobe could have lost RIGHT NOW.
But Ochi allowed the point that Kabaji won( the THIRD player in this DOUBLES match) to count.
Ochi could have won. But for kindness he let Atobe have a lifeline. so basically Atobe has already lost to Ochi and Mouri who havent even broken a sweat.
Atobe's tenacity did nothing for him. Your point is invalid.

To put it another way. I could see Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 as a more plausible match than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. Even if Atobe is outclassed, he will probably take it to a tiebreak,..., where anything can happen.

I cant see any schooler defeating either Atobe OR Sanada 7-0. Both are crazy scorelines.
I see only a few MSers with a chance of beating them. (Tezuka, Yuki and Ryoma of course).

Atobe was out-classed, and Irie ALLOWED it to go tie-break which Tanegashima showed us.
Irie pretended his arm hurt. His arm was fine. Gosh I love Tanegashima and Irie. Tanegashima must have great Insight or something man. Look forward to his match with whoever.

Im sorry but as tenacious as Atobe is, Sanada is just as tenacious.
So as long as Atobe cant return Zan without World of Ice and AK which TIRES HIM OUT, and Sanada uses Rai which tires him out too AND has Black Aura to spare,
Sanada > Atobe. Without a doubt.

But Atobe is STILL amazing. Im not doubting that.

---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------

Pl reread my post. I said Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 is more likely than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. I didn't say either scenario was likely. I base this off the fact that Atobe has a knack for getting matches to a tiebreaker.

I think the writers recognize that Atobe will never get bageled or breadsticked...thats why they had Irie sandbag when playing Atobe. Or gave Tezuka an injury, etc.

So the question is open...how good is Atobe?

Good god. You want us to say Atobe is Yukimura Sanada level but there is NOTHING to suggest he is.

Listen he is Akutsu group. Why?
Akutsu can hit any type of shot from any body position. So as long as the ball is remotely near him, he can hit an offensive shot. So he doesnt really have a dead angle. So AK and World of Ice will only work a certain percentage of the time. Akutsu can also hit 5 at a time.

Tooyama will likely overpower Atobe. Then he can also hit 5 at a time. Also in that tier.

Niou is in that tier. In Singles I dont see how Atobe can stop ZSS.

 

[LetalHawk]

Atobe's dangerous because of that, he can evolve faster than others and specially in hard matches against strong opponents and during crucial points.

He's just like Echizen, he evolves and quickly puts up a fight. Maybe he could reach Yukimura's level but that should happen by the end of Shin. I don't know how, but if he got against Irie a technique like AK that is an absolute technique, if he gets something better, he would be almost unbeteable.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Atobe's pretty much stronger than say, Fuji or Shiraishi. Gotta remember, his character is often that of an underdog. The underdog will always come out on top.

 

[fdsjkl]

Gotta say, there are two styles of thinking on this board. There are people who think solely in terms of techniques...and those that think in terms of characterization.

Atobe will always be an underdog...while Rai is just one of many techniques in the mangaka.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Gotta say, there are two styles of thinking on this board. There are people who think solely in terms of techniques...and those that think in terms of characterization.

Atobe will always be an underdog...while Rai is just one of many techniques in the mangaka.

Gotta hand it to Konomi for portraying Atobe the way he does. Even though he's a conceited, arrogant, dude with a higher-than-thou mentality, he still writes him in a way that you still wanna cheer for the guy rather than hope he loses.

 

[Ninomiya]

Gotta say, there are two styles of thinking on this board. There are people who think solely in terms of techniques...and those that think in terms of characterization.

Atobe will always be an underdog...while Rai is just one of many techniques in the mangaka.

You keep saying characterization, but that alone cant win you a match.
Atobe has great persistence. SO does Sanada. SO does Fuji. SO does Ryoma, Kaidoh, Momoshiro, Kawamura, Kabaji, Krauser, Tezuka, Yukimura showed great persistence being able to rally with TMnK, Shishido/Ootori pair, like seriously. Atobe aint the only guy who claws his way to victory.

Get over your beloved Atobe. He is amazing. Its just that its clear as day that he cannot beat Sanada with what he has at this moment in time.

You yourself have FAILED to explain how Rai let alone Black Aura can be contained by Atobe.

And yeah, he is better than Fuji and Shiraishi.

 

[fdsjkl]

You keep saying characterization, but that alone cant win you a match.
Atobe has great persistence. SO does Sanada. SO does Fuji. SO does Ryoma, Kaidoh, Momoshiro, Kawamura, Kabaji, Krauser, Tezuka, Yukimura showed great persistence being able to rally with TMnK, Shishido/Ootori pair, like seriously. Atobe aint the only guy who claws his way to victory.

Get over your beloved Atobe. He is amazing. Its just that its clear as day that he cannot beat Sanada with what he has at this moment in time.

You yourself have FAILED to explain how Rai let alone Black Aura can be contained by Atobe.

And yeah, he is better than Fuji and Shiraishi.

Do I need to give you a math lesson? We have some hidden variables and we have some observed variables (like Rai). I can put some equations in this post, but to keep it short, let me just say that we haven't seen enough to judge. From what we have seen, we've seen Sanada use BA once...which is statistically insignificant. Atobe on the other hand played injured against Irie and took him to a draw.

Let me know if you want to get into the mathematics...?

 

[LetalHawk]

Do I need to give you a math lesson? We have some hidden variables and we have some observed variables (like Rai). I can put some equations in this post, but to keep it short, let me just say that we haven't seen enough to judge. From what we have seen, we've seen Sanada use BA once...which is statistically insignificant. Atobe on the other hand played injured against Irie and took him to a draw.

Let me know if you want to get into the mathematics...?

But, you forget that Irie was holding back the entire time. The Irie who played against Atobe isn't the same Irie who played seriously against Akiba. You know how fast Akiba was destroyed when Irie wanted to finish the match, same thing would happen to Atobe, Irie would rock him.

That's what Konomi has shown us. However, Atobe improves quickly, so he could at least put up a fight, but still lose.

 

[Ninomiya]

Do I need to give you a math lesson? We have some hidden variables and we have some observed variables (like Rai). I can put some equations in this post, but to keep it short, let me just say that we haven't seen enough to judge. From what we have seen, we've seen Sanada use BA once...which is statistically insignificant. Atobe on the other hand played injured against Irie and took him to a draw.

Let me know if you want to get into the mathematics...?

Oh come on. Atobe's form didnt change after the injury. He was still scoring points the same way with the injury.
That injury was NO Tezuka injury their, or a Momoshiro suffering from Oni style injury. It was a minor knock.

We dont need math. Can Atobe return Rai? Dont divert from this. Make it simple. Your beloved Atobe CANNOT return Rai.

Is Atobe the ONLY character who can claw his way to victory? HELL NO. Many characters in the series have shown their splendid will to win.
Shiraishi VS Fuji, Tezuka VS Atobe, your beloved Atobe only JUST edged past a heavily injured Tezuka.

Atobe was in a better condition during the WHOLE Irie match than when Tezuka faced Atobe.

Let me know if you want to get into the facts.

You think just Atobe improved quickly? Akutsu can hit 5 balls at a time, Momoshiro can hit BJK, Ryoma dont get me started, Kintaro can use mass clones and hit 6 balls(According to the anime), Sanada can hit 5 at a time, Yukimura's Yips has improved, Niou's abilities have greatly lifted, Kawamura can use 180 Degree's of Hadoukyuu.

Improvement is all around Atobe. Not just him. You just have to tell us how Atobe overcomes Rai.

 

[Fosprey]

Mmm, Why Atobe can't just do the same than yuki and use the handle of the racket? In fact, at least in the anime (I don't remember in the manga) he uses viking horn.
Also for what is worth, Atobe made a better fight to ryoma than both Sanada and yuki. I know that Sanada didn't used Rai in (Atobe didn't have atobe kingdom by then ). And that yuki stomped before PoP. (in fact we have no evidence yet that Ryoma without pop can beat yuki. And that is a relevant thing because it's possible that pop is not voluntary, or at least means that yuki may be as good or better than tokugawa)

People Keep downgrading Atobe, but I know that Atobe did put a better fight against ryoma, than basically anyone in the manga, at least in an official match. And I also know that yuki said that in atobe vs sanada, atobe would win that match (however later stated that only him could beat sanada)

My position is that Sanada would win but Atobe is inmediatly below Sanada, and that is, and i think people are downgrading him more than that. Of course, I would love a full match of Sanada vs Atobe. But probably will never happen because konomi do not want to make sad any fanbase.

 

[Kalel]

Regardless, Echizen is always the exception to every rule, so you still do not have a point. Yukimura was still right in saying he is the only one capable of beating Sanada, because Echizen will always beat everyone, so he is always the exception. Saying "Well, Echizen did it so _____ can too" does not exist in the realm of actual arguments.

lol at that statement. All it takes for any character to be better than another is a few key strokes from Konomi. In sports player goes back and forth often like Federer vs Nadal.

http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapter/37089_the-strength-of-the-middle-schoolers/page_7

Let's just agree to disagree but injured or not FACT is Tezuka lost to Atobe and Sanada was on his way to losing before Yukimura stopped the match. Just because he had Rai hidden doesn't mean anything it's only your assumption. THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY GAMES ON THE COURT OR FIELDS AND NOT ON PAPER!

I feel like nobody here watches sports.

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------

You keep saying characterization, but that alone cant win you a match.
Atobe has great persistence. SO does Sanada. SO does Fuji. SO does Ryoma, Kaidoh, Momoshiro, Kawamura, Kabaji, Krauser, Tezuka, Yukimura showed great persistence being able to rally with TMnK, Shishido/Ootori pair, like seriously. Atobe aint the only guy who claws his way to victory.

Get over your beloved Atobe. He is amazing. Its just that its clear as day that he cannot beat Sanada with what he has at this moment in time.
You yourself have FAILED to explain how Rai let alone Black Aura can be contained by Atobe.

And yeah, he is better than Fuji and Shiraishi.

Bro I like you so I hate to say all the s**t you have type is based on your opinion but it is. Fact is Atobe has already beaten Tezuka and was on his to defeating Sanada those are facts in the manga. It's clearly written Atobe has great potential. Also the fact that Konomi has taken the time to write and really define Atobe as a character over almost everyone not name Ryoma Echizen alone is a give away that he could make Atobe that much stronger.

I know you will disagree with me so we will agree to disagree.

 

[Fayte]

lol at that statement. All it takes for any character to be better than another is a few key strokes from Konomi. In sports player goes back and forth often like Federer vs Nadal.

http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapter/37089_the-strength-of-the-middle-schoolers/page_7

Let's just agree to disagree but injured or not FACT is Tezuka lost to Atobe and Sanada was on his way to losing before Yukimura stopped the match. Just because he had Rai hidden doesn't mean anything it's only your assumption. THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY GAMES ON THE COURT OR FIELDS AND NOT ON PAPER!

I feel like nobody here watches sports.

I feel like you're new here. Anyone who tries to compare real Tennis logic with PoT has not been around very long. Running around with the argument "Well, Konomi can do whatever he wants" is subjective and can be applied to either side. So let's just avoid that argument. We are going by the facts, not what Konomi "could" potentially do. It is a FACT that Nationals Atobe would have lost 6-0 against Rai. WoI was created to defeat Zan. Could Atobe have won? Probably. Sanada is stubborn and could have kept Rai and In for Tezuka, and he would have lost if he did that. This is the outcome Yukimura was referring to. However, even IF Atobe won against Sanada with WoI at that time, he is STILL NOT BETTER than Sanada (at that time). Beating someone does not make them better. Atobe beat Tezuka in the Kantou tournament, yet Tezuka's real skill was EXPANSES above Atobe.

I already made the argument that Atobe has been CONSISTENTLY LOSING to Sanada for years. It took him how many years to overcome Zan, and you're saying "Go dust yourself off and go beat the most overpowered technique in the series?" Let's be rational. You can argue based on "what ifs" all you want, but the majority of us are arguing based upon the actual canon.

 

[fdsjkl]

Let's be rational. You can argue based on "what ifs" all you want, but the majority of us are arguing based upon the actual canon.

You are talking about some made up technique -- Rai. Let's talk about facts then shall we? Every time that a major character, e.g, Ryoma, Atobe, faces adversity in the form of a broken technique...they invent a counter.

If Atobe and Sanada were to play a serious match. Atobe would end up countering Rai and Sanada would counter Atobe Kingdom. This is an empirical and statistical observation given past matches of major characters -- do you want to get into the mathematics?

You are very happy to say that Sanada's techniques are >> Atobe's techniques. But then you say that Atobe and Sanada have similar determination. No one is saying that Sanada is a layover, but Atobe's ethos is his underdog status. So if you are going to be fair, say that Atobe's determination is >> Sanada's.