Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2012] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[meeedoooz]

Toriko does sell quite a bit more than Kuroko. It's sold a ton more total, and more overall in each volume. Also Kuroko's anime is ending soon, it's not a long-running one. Which will probably hurt it after the hype dies down. Toriko has consistently sold really well, getting to 400K in the first 5 weeks or so. Kuroko's been selling around 200K each volume until the anime came out, where it boomed in popularity. Now, even after that, it's still been selling less than Toriko by a a few thousand in the short term of that last volume that came out. It's not selling BETTER by any stretch of the imagination unless you count that a lot of people started buying the whole series when its anime came out, so it tends to explode when that happens. Though it generally doesn't continue for the long term. People discussed this before, usually a series does really well when it has a movie or anime coming out, and then it dies down to a "regular" sort of rate when it ends. A good gauge for how well a series is doing is how well it sells on the Oricon charts right when it comes out, which Kuroko is certainly doing well with. But it's not at the same rank as Toriko, it just isn't. If you want to see how well Kuroko will do in the long term, see what sales it gets after the anime has ended in... 6-7 weeks I think.

yeah but like you and kaiten explained Toriko isn't by any chance considered above Bleach even if it ranks better. kuroko isn't as big as Toriko right now " though it sells close to it the difference is 4K in the latest charts " without being pimped out even half as mush

 

[xi0]

That's ridiculous, when Kuroko was the sole sports series in Jump it received plenty of "pimping" with no real explanation. Now that it seems to have established itself maybe it seems more warranted, but I remember many found it puzzling back when it was always a bottom-half series in the ToC.

Toriko is a series by an already-established mangaka who had a modicum of success in Jump in past years. Of course it would receive some attention due to that fact, but it's past the point of it being held up only by said "pimping". The series stands on it's own as a success.

People including Toriko in the Big 3 at times instead of Bleach has as much to do with fading Bleach tank sales as it does with Toriko's success. No one is suggesting it's worth more as a property than Bleach, it would be stupid to do so when Bleach is 7+ years older than Toriko. It's simply a case of a series on the rise versus and series in decline.

 

[Pirulito]

I'm afraid to inform you but Weekly Shounen Jump is a business. The goal of a business is to make money. Individual manga only make money when released as tankobon. Making money takes absolute and total precedent over rankings at all times. Fortunately the vast majority of series that rank well also sell well, while the titles that sell well generally poll well. When series poll poorly but sell well we have clear, direct, and indisputable evidence that sales take precedent. Mago lasted four years, had an anime, and will have additional chapters published in Jump NEXT. To Love Ru also lasted four years, was also animated, and was revived in SQ less than a year after ending in Jump. Ranking certainly does matter. Both series would still be serialized had they ranked higher. But it would be horribly naive to believe that sales were not Jump's first, last, and everything. Money talks and bullshit walks. On the rare occasions that a manga makes money but ranks poorly, sales sustain serialization where other series would be canceled.

---------- Post added at 02:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 AM ----------

You might be reading to much into this weeks cover art. To go by the cover, Toriko is second only to One Piece. Naruto is no more popular than Sket Dance, Nisekoi, and Beelzebub. We all know that Naruto is a multi-media empire, clearly the second most popular title in Jump. If popularity could properly be judged based on the cover, then Naruto would be the second largest character on the cover.

I'm afraid to inform you, dude, but the discussion was

I don`t think that toriko is in the big 3 anymore. HxH and Kuroko sold a lot more.

The discussion is not about "making money". It is just about popularity in the magazine.
This invented term "Big 3" is frequently used to indicate the 3 most popular mangas in the magazine. And, like you said about NuraMago and To-Love-Ru, the volume sales doesn't determine popularity in the magazine.

 

[Kaiten]

"Big 3" refers exclusively to online fandom where Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece have been clear favorites for the better part of a decade. It was never meant to describe Japanese fandom, the reason most of us never bother discussing Jump in terms of "Big 3". This has lead to some confusion over the years, with a small minority mistakenly believing "big 3" applies to Japanese fandom, when it really was only meant for international fans. With the TOC rankings posted every week, along with the Oricon rankings, such an unnatural, subjective label is hardly necessary. We have enough information to for a clear, objective picture about what really is successful in Japan.

 

[ruggia]

Toriko does sell quite a bit more than Kuroko. It's sold a ton more total, and more overall in each volume. Also Kuroko's anime is ending soon, it's not a long-running one. Which will probably hurt it after the hype dies down. Toriko has consistently sold really well, getting to 400K in the first 5 weeks or so. Kuroko's been selling around 200K each volume until the anime came out, where it boomed in popularity. Now, even after that, it's still been selling less than Toriko by a a few thousand in the short term of that last volume that came out. It's not selling BETTER by any stretch of the imagination unless you count that a lot of people started buying the whole series when its anime came out, so it tends to explode when that happens. Though it generally doesn't continue for the long term. People discussed this before, usually a series does really well when it has a movie or anime coming out, and then it dies down to a "regular" sort of rate when it ends. A good gauge for how well a series is doing is how well it sells on the Oricon charts right when it comes out, which Kuroko is certainly doing well with. But it's not at the same rank as Toriko, it just isn't. If you want to see how well Kuroko will do in the long term, see what sales it gets after the anime has ended in... 6-7 weeks I think.

well, with how much success the anime had, not just in boosting manga sales but in terms of DVD/Bluray sales (only Spring Anime that sold over 10K in one week... by a huge margin) second season would be inevitable.

another interesting thing is that Kuroko apparently had the largest complete series sale in July according to 全巻読破.COM, even surpassing One Piece, which isn't something you see often regardless of the advantage it has ;p
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20120802-00000023-inet-inet

 

[susanoo13]

Was it even confirmed that Kuroko's anime would end in Oct. ?
Do we already know what would take it's timeslot?

Somehow by how successful the anime is although it does have the quality beyond that of an ongoing I doubt it will end at 26, I bet they tried in the beginning to see if there should be more than 13 episodes(those who watch the series and read the manga know why I write it, there were also rumors online that it's just a 12 episode series) but now I believe it will last at least 1 year with a possibility of a second year which might end with the ending of the manga, the director is the same as PoT's anime so he might want to take Kuroko all the way

 

[k-dom]

Well since we are an online fandom, it seems we are allowed ro use it... It's not because japanese didn't create it's forbidden to use the term. It's just that we have to agree on what we understand this term implies.

 

[Kaiten]

"Big 3" holds actual meaning when describing the taste of international fans. Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece's popularity at one time dwarfed that of any other series. Calling them the "big 3" really did describe their place among international fans. The same can not be said for Japan, where the industry is centered. With the information available to us, we are able to describe the popularity of manga in far more nuanced terms than "big 3" allows. The number itself even becomes completely arbitrary and exclusionary. With the Oricon charts and TOC rankings we can discuss popularity in far more detail than allowed by reducing discussion to a "big 3". Why limit ourselves to such an unnatural, arbitrary description without reason? The discussion in question was attempting to describe Japanese popularity (not online) in terms of the big 3. If such a confining discussion is desired, that is not my business. But it should be pointed out that the term holds little to no meaning, and it might not be something worthy of such a heated conversation

 

[Asgaroth]

how about the big 20? or we could start with the big big 10 and the big mini 10...

seriously, the term is stupid and fells more like, which 3 mangas do international people know about that don't know many mangas. my guess would be that the list contains mostly one piece, naruto, bleach. one piece sells around 4 tiems as much as naruto and probably around 10 times of bleach. its as far of the scale as naruto to other series. it more like the biggest series in manga history + 2 current long running series that are popular.

 

[kewl0210]

I agree that "Big 3" is a stupid fanboyish term. It's just because those 3 manga are really popular, have long-running anime, and have been around for a long time. (And don't go on hiatuses) There are plenty of manga that have sold as well, been as popular, or just been better series in terms of story.

I think Kuroko's a great series, but Toriko's been increasing in sales (per volume, as they come out) as well. Though Toriko has sold a lot more overall in addition to ranking high among magazine readers. We'll see if Kuroko continues to hold up after the anime ends and such. And yeah, it'll probably get a second season at some point. I'd love to see a One Piece-Toriko-Kuroko big three at some point, once Naruto and Bleach end.

 

[xi0]

"Big 3" is indeed a term created by internet fandom, but I think it's more of a level of popularity a series has in the magazine as well as tank sales. Only slightly though on the sales side, considering the gap between One Piece and the others is much, much larger. It's a refusal to accept that there can be several moderate hits (by WSJ standards only) and then One Piece and Naruto. So when someone has suggested that Toriko is "Big 3" now and Bleach isn't it's an inexact way of saying a series has reached a certain status in the magazine.

Even then, it is mostly useless if we're talking about the manga industry as a whole.

 

[k-dom]

The difference between one piece and naruto is only that high in japan ( one piece started to sell more in france only last year) And since we don't have oricon elsewhere than in japan we don't have precise way to tell about popularity on an international level.

 

[xi0]

The difference between one piece and naruto is only that high in japan ( one piece started to sell more in france only last year) And since we don't have oricon elsewhere than in japan we don't have precise way to tell about popularity on an international level.

There's the New York Times Best Seller List for Graphic Novels here in the US.

I would agree that Naruto's popularity elsewhere than in Japan is larger proportionately to One Piece, if not more. But again, international trends tend to mirror those in Japan. It's not as if Naruto isn't a monster, popular series in Japan and is everywhere else. Companies in the business of licensing and translating manga tend to look at what's popular in Japan before they look at what might be popular in their country. One Piece wasn't handled properly by those that licensed it here in the US back when it was first brought over in my opinion. So the reasoning for it maybe not being as popular as Naruto or Bleach in the US compared to most other places isn't the fault of the series themselves at all as far as I'm concerned. Just my two cents.

 

[Kaiten]

Neilson's tracks graphic novel (including manga) sales in the US. Until May Publisher's Weekly posted the results. Hopefully they will begin posting again soon. If anyone was wondering, Sailor Moon reissues are currently the most popular manga in the US, followed closely by Naruto. Sales in the US are so low they almost are not worth discussing. Here is the last chart I could find: https://secure.publishersweekly.com/pw/nielsen/graphic.html

At the time Naruto and One Piece were licensed, anime was key to breaking a manga. Naruto aired at 10pm on a popular cable network with few edits. One Piece aired on an early morning kid's block with significant changes in content. Naruto more easily found it's natural audience, with fans of the anime quickly finding the manga. Two years later Bleach began airing on the same network as Naruto, during a later block, alongside such popular shows as Family Guy and Futurama. Like Naruto, this introduced Bleach to a wider audience, helping to boost popularity. Bleach took over Inuyasha's time slot, when that series ended. A few years before that Fullmetal Alchemist aired during the same block. Naruto aired as part of the block that introduced Dragonball Z to America. One Piece aired with Scooby Doo. Like Naruto, Bleach developed an audience considerably faster than One Piece.

 

[k-dom]

Unfortunately in France the only results we have is a ranking but since it is not cumulative, it's impossible to do something with it. The only other figure I know, is a yearly analyse which is quite interesting but only contains the number of print.

 

[Asgaroth]

One Piece wasn't handled properly by those that licensed it here in the US back when it was first brought over in my opinion.

Would you care to explain to a foreigner why it wasn't as good as the original? did they censor it like the anime?

 

[xi0]

Would you care to explain to a foreigner why it wasn't as good as the original? did they censor it like the anime?

I was talking about both the anime and the manga. For some reason the anime seemed to be marketed to a younger audience than Naruto and and a much younger audience than Bleach, which aired at night. My guess is the violence. In any case it was botched in my opinion. When the license went to Funimation it was redubbed and aired at a more appropriate timeslot, but the damage was done by 4kids I guess.

 

[DestyNova4th]

I would like a little reminder of all Golden Future Cup's works, I only find information from past 2 years. Anyone can contribute it? Thanks!

 

[k-dom]

This is the japanese wikipedia page of the golden cup.

 

[Zeromcd]

Jump Next!! Cover & Special Interchangeable Jump Comic Cover (Nisekoi)

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

Jump Series - 8 Week Averages
1.One Piece　　2.3(△0.3)
2.Naruto　　　 2.7(―0.0)
3.Toriko　　　　 3.5(▼0.2)
4.Nisekoi　　　 6.0(△0.4)
5.Haikyuu!!　 6.9(△0.6)

7.Sket Dance　 　 7.6(△0.3)
8.Kuroko 　　　 7.8(▼1.3)
9.Beelzebub　　　 11.6(△0.2)
10.Gintama　　　　 12.1(―0.0)
12.Reborn! 　　　 14.4(△0.4)

13.Kochikame　　 14.8(△0.1)
14.Medaka Box　 14.9(―0.0)
15.Bleach 　　 　　 16.1(―0.0)
17.Pajama 　　 　17.6(▼0.2)
18.Kurogane　　 18.6(▼0.5)

New Series - 5 Week Averages
6.PSI Kusuo Saiki 　　 7.1 (slightly above Enigma at chapter 13)
11.Koisome Momiji 　　 13.0 (same as Lock On! at chapter 14)
15.Sensei no Bulge 　　 16.1 (slightly below Sengoku Armors at chapter 12)