Match can any middel school beat the number 3 stringer duke?

[Phantron]

Fuji can't return Hadoball back in the game against Fudomine. At that point of the story Hado is a decently strong technique.

So relative to the story, Fuji has never been someone who is able to return the hardest power shots head on. This is mostly because he almost never matches up with pure power characters but there's just no reason to assume he can handle power shots. He can't even return Shiraishi's normal smash while using a tech, and Shiraishi is by no means a power player.

Duke Homerun is a top tier power shot. Someone who has a history of difficulty dealing with power shot isn't going to be able to return it unless the story says otherwise.

I don't know why people assume all these fancy techniques in POT is supposed to effect the #3 player in Japan whose power is based on NPOT. Yukimura used to be able to see through any move but he doesn't appear to be able to see through Mach Serve, while the rest of the G10 reaction shows that Mach Serve is at best an annoying shot to return. All the previously invincible techniques just aren't that impressive when you get to NPOT. When Tezuka pulled TnK it certainly wasn't a 'once in a generation' event in POT. In fact it looks like the top tier HSers/coaches pretty much expected that to happen. If TnK isn't even that big of a deal to the top HSers why would you expect far lesser techniques to significantly impact them?

It's far more likely you try yips or Hyakuren or whatever and Duke just says, "Such a weak technique has no effect!" and defeat it unconditionally, the same way Yukimura used to be able to counter techniques by just saying something, because Duke's tier is much higher than any MSer so he gets the benefit of doubt unless he has a specific weakness stated in the manga.

Ultimately, the guys in POT, especially the coaches, know way more about how tennis works in POT than any of us. The fact that they put a guy at #3 at presumably either the S2 or D1 position for the U17 team means this guy either always has someone to cover him against techs (if he's normally the D1) or that there is no way to easily exploit whatever weakness he may have (if he's normally the S2). You can't get hung up on the 'guaranteed' properties. World of Ice is supposed to work everyone, even Yukimura, until Irie came along who has no blind spots.

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------

maybe yuki mura can yips him? keep on doing hard serves and lobs so duke dont power up. just a guess

Because Mach Serve is no big deal to people in the G10 by definition nothing Yukimura serves would be considered 'hard to deal with' against a G10.

I don't see how boss-like ability could possibly work on someone who is much higher tier. It's like saying WoI could beat Duke. He probably has blind spots, but I just see no way of him losing to such low level technique and at the G10 level, even yips is low level technique.

I think Yukimura has the best chance because he is good at exploiting the opponent's weakness even when yips doesn't work. It'd probably be similar of his game against Ryoma with Hyakuren. His goal would just to be hit the ball away from Duke so he can't easily get his power shots in, and Yukimura is flexible enough that he will get out of the way of a DH which I see no way for him to return. Given Duke is shown to NOT possess unlimited stamina to do DH over and over (he was sweating by the time he beat Gin) Yukimura might be able to lure him into hitting too many DHs and tire him out.

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

So, if you think about it, DH is stronger than 108th Hadoukyuu, so maybe even a little stronger than Daisharin.

Heck, Ryoma with Hyakuren, Yukimura and Sanada will return Duke Homerun. Also, is a special move, Yukimura sees through every shot, DH is no exception, he will return it. The racket frame can also return power shots, with Rai is possible. Don't know why the best power player is that troublesome, when the moment you return Duke Homerun you will win the match.

Because the coaches are pretty much by definition the guys who know the most about how tennis works in NPOT the fact that Duke has his position at #3 implies that any cheap way you can think of to beat him is not going to work, because otherwise he'd have already lost his spot at #3 (from various challengers) and no way the coaches are going to be so stupid to put such a crucial position (he's either S2 or D1) on someone who is so easily defeated.

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

I don't know why people always think tech > power. It's really power > tech. Kawamura literally has nothing besides power and yet even Tezuka and Fuji is somewhat envious of Kawamura's tremendously power. Unless the point is that all these guys just decide to play a joke on him, the implication is that power is a great thing to have in POT. In POT pretty much each team somehow knows the order the other team plays in, and Kawamura was picked to play Gin because he's the only one who probably won't get hurt in a straight up match. This is a series that has Tezuka playing at the D1 and Fuji at S3, so if they were only looking for a sure win and power is that easy to overcome, they got two really good tech players to play Gin, but Kawamura was chosen instead.

There's a huge difference between the stronger player and whether someone gets hurt. Tezuka is obviously way stronger than Gin. There's no guaranteed Tezuka wouldn't get hurt playing Gin. Tezuka is also significantly stronger than Kabaji, but he is guaranteed to get hurt against Kabaji in the mirror match if it went on for long enough since Kabaji outclasses him in endurance + power and can copy techs. For the most part POT obviously only shows you the highlights and when not dealing with the highlights, even extremely good players can mess up. In the final point between Shiraishi and Fuji, Fuji didn't hit his counter exactly right. Fuji zoned out against Kirihara and got blinded by a ball. Tezuka put some spin on the final serve against Sanada but obviously the spin wasn't enough to the point Sanada can yell at the ball and make it roll back.

The problem is that the price you pay for a mistake against a power player is nowhere near the same as a tech player. Irie has the highest tech score so far out of characters with known tech scores. If you make a mistake on on Irie he scores a point. If you make a mistake on Duke you'll need a stretcher. This puts a huge burden on the tech player because he must make no mistake in the entire game because the first mistake you make is likely your last. On the other hand the power player has no such weaknesses.

 

[ashore]

you could argue fuwa was better than yuki mura or the lower 20 pepole of 1st string.

so yips could work on higher tier people. its whether their mental ability is strong enough to counter it. which logcially they should but one shouldn't make that a general rule until konomi proves it.

 

[Phantron]

you could argue fuwa was better than yuki mura or the lower 20 pepole of 1st string.

so yips could work on higher tier people. its whether their mental ability is strong enough to counter it. which logcially they should but one shouldn't make that a general rule until konomi proves it.

There are way too many problematic abilities in POT if you go by that route. WoI is even more problematic than yips in this respect.

 

[Ninomiya]

Well, fo some reason Konomi always makes Power vs Power matches. Again, I always remember this match:

Spoiler

Good point. But this was back at this stage of the story.
By U-17 Camp, there must be a way to overcome MS level Power players.
Otherwise Kawamura and Gin would have been Top 10 in that list to face the 1st Stringers.

---------- Post added at 04:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 AM ----------

you could argue fuwa was better than yuki mura or the lower 20 pepole of 1st string.

so yips could work on higher tier people. its whether their mental ability is strong enough to counter it. which logcially they should but one shouldn't make that a general rule until konomi proves it.

Yukimura is much better than Kintaro. He yipped him within a point.
Yes Kintaro is high tier but Mental cannot avoid Yips. If Yips is coming, then it's coming.
Sanada and Ryoma have been yipped. If these two can get yipped and needed Auras to cancel it, then that goes for everybody else in the series until proven otherwise.

---------- Post added at 05:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 AM ----------

I don't know why people always think tech > power. It's really power > tech. Kawamura literally has nothing besides power and yet even Tezuka and Fuji is somewhat envious of Kawamura's tremendously power. Unless the point is that all these guys just decide to play a joke on him, the implication is that power is a great thing to have in POT.

Kawamura is envious of Fuji and Tezuka. So it goes both ways.
Secondly, Power Play moves require big swings. Fuji and Tezuka can work they way around that flaw easily.

---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------

FIf TnK isn't even that big of a deal to the top HSers why would you expect far lesser techniques to significantly impact them?

You misunderstand.
During the Team Shuffle, Konomi changed the direction of his story.
He has clearly decided to make The Top HSers weaker than he intially wanted them to be.

As I see several MSers defeating the No.9.
He is meant to be a Top HSer.

Honestly Phantron, Power cannot be all that is needed to win in this series.
Especially to be at No.3 in the nation.
Of the MSers who can you see being No.3 in the nation?

Duke has to have Technique as well as crazy Power.
Since Power needs big swings. Many MSers can work their way around that.

But I'm assuming Duke can hit Power Serves too. So the majority of his opponents probably do end up on stretchers.
What scares me is that the HSers didn't seem alarmed or surprised to see a HUMAN (Ishida Gin) flying through the air and landing in other peoples arms unconscious.

 

[Kaoz]

According to the databooks neither Krauser nor Kintaro have been stated to be Power Players.

I meant power players as in, having lots of power, not that being the only thing they have.

Krauser's physical appearance isn't that different from those of the more average MSers in the physical area, yet his power stat was 1.5 points higher than Tezuka's, Atobe's and Shiraishi's.
Likewise, Ryoga doesn't look like Duke, but that doesn't mean his power stat can't be high.

 

[Ninomiya]

I meant power players as in, having lots of power, not that being the only thing they have.

Krauser's physical appearance isn't that different from those of the more average MSers in the physical area, yet his power stat was 1.5 points higher than Tezuka's, Atobe's and Shiraishi's.
Likewise, Ryoga doesn't look like Duke, but that doesn't mean his power stat can't be high.

Yeah I accepted this.
Since stats were just a Team Shuffle thing Konomi did, so we will likely never see stats again so I can't go by anything on the Top 10 either.


But do you honestly think Duke's shots cannot be returned unless the opponent hits an even more powerful return back?

 

[LetalHawk]

Yeah I accepted this.
Since stats were just a Team Shuffle thing Konomi did, so we will likely never see stats again so I can't go by anything on the Top 10 either.


But do you honestly think Duke's shots cannot be returned unless the opponent hits an even more powerful return back?

That's not neccesary. As an example, I take Gin. Him hitting very high leveled Hadouykuus or for example Kintarou hitting Daisharin who is stronger than 108th Hadoukyuu, and Yukimura just did a normal return and returned it like nothing. What is going to make the top MS vulnerable to DH? You don't need more power than that shot to return it, if you have good strength and crazy technique the shot is just a joke.

 

[Ninomiya]

That's not neccesary. As an example, I take Gin. Him hitting very high leveled Hadouykuus or for example Kintarou hitting Daisharin who is stronger than 108th Hadoukyuu, and Yukimura just did a normal return and returned it like nothing. What is going to make the top MS vulnerable to DH? You don't need more power than that shot to return it, if you have good strength and crazy technique the shot is just a joke.

Precisely what I was thinking.
Although Yukimura has solid power, I'm trying to think of a player like Fuji etc. who hasn't been shown to have solid power be able to hit back Power shots.

 

[Kaoz]

But do you honestly think Duke's shots cannot be returned unless the opponent hits an even more powerful return back?

No, but I also don't think that any weakling can return it as long as they have good technique. I don't see Fuji returning higher level Hadokyuus either for example... he'll still likely win because he doesn't need to return them to take the majority of points, but if Gin/Kawamura is able to hit one, I'd imagine he would want to get out of the way.

 

[Ninomiya]

No, but I also don't think that any weakling can return it as long as they have good technique. I don't see Fuji returning higher level Hadokyuus either for example... he'll still likely win because he doesn't need to return them to take the majority of points, but if Gin/Kawamura is able to hit one, I'd imagine he would want to get out of the way.

This I agree with.
But have we ever seen a player use his common sense in the series and go "I don't want to return that Jack Knife or Hadoukyuu, so I'll just wait and work my around the match so I will just dodge the shots that could leave me in critical condition, and then hit winners when I can"?

My original argument was that I see Fuji returning regular Hadoukyuus, but I don't see it as out there that we have guys like him working their way around the 108th Hadoukyuu serve.
It's unlikely but theoritically, now that Kawamura and Gin can hit them on serves, their should be few in the camp that can touch them.
Except they are far from the best in the camp. (Well Kawamura is No.12, but I suppose we know there are 20guys who could finish the guy off).

 

[Phantron]

This I agree with.
But have we ever seen a player use his common sense in the series and go "I don't want to return that Jack Knife or Hadoukyuu, so I'll just wait and work my around the match so I will just dodge the shots that could leave me in critical condition, and then hit winners when I can"?

My original argument was that I see Fuji returning regular Hadoukyuus, but I don't see it as out there that we have guys like him working their way around the 108th Hadoukyuu serve.
It's unlikely but theoritically, now that Kawamura and Gin can hit them on serves, their should be few in the camp that can touch them.
Except they are far from the best in the camp. (Well Kawamura is No.12, but I suppose we know there are 20guys who could finish the guy off).

It is precisely because almost nobody in POT has common sense that's why power players are way stronger than a comparably strong tech players. From what we know just about everyone approaches a power shot Sanada-style, where if you fail to return it head on you just disgraced your ancestors and probably should fled the country in shame.

So in light of that, none of the MSer have a chance because they'll just try to hit Duke Homerun and go flying, possibly die. I guess Kintaro might have a shot at returning it, given he has >Hado 108 power even before any training, but someone like Yukimura is definitely toast. Of course, Yukimura actually does seem to possess common sense, which might be why he's the Child of God, and just don't bother with that shot. That'd be a valid way to defeat Duke.

In the original POT the power players pretty much have only power/endurance and nothing else. It wouldn't surprise me if Kawamura's stat is 5/5/1/1/1. You can argue if your tech is that bad maybe there's some clever trick to get around your power, but once you get to Duke's level you can't assume there'd have a power/endurance/1/1/1 stat because all the top MSer are meant to be uber strong. So you can't assume there's some clever trick that'd allow you to completely avoid their power because if there's technique to completely avoid power, who is to say there isn't some power that can avoid all technique?

Now there's a difference between say unable to return a shot or physically getting knocked out. Duke has been stated as the #1 power player of Japan. But even if this means he can bust Byodouin's racket there's no way this means he is better than Byodouin because DH is almost certainly not a shot sustainable for 24 hits in a row. Most likely you'll just see Byodouin hit a DH back and say 'my arm is sore' but still return it fine. But when you're talking about characters like Yukimura, we're literally talking about guys we're not sure if they'll live through a single DH. It's okay to drop your racket against DH because you can overcome that if you simply have a good serve. For example, say you have ZSS-level serve (assuming Duke can't return it) and you drop your racket against every DH, it'd just be an endurance match to see who gets tired out first.

It's not okay if we can't be sure if you'll even be alive after a DH, and due to the extreme lack of common sense in POT, we can't assume people will just get out of the way of a DH. I mean you got Byodouin blowing out a wall with a tennis ball but I bet you if he play any random fodder MSer, they'll still inexplicably try to return his serve instead of running for their lives.

 

[Ninomiya]

Do you think Sanada will return DH Phantron?

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Duke Homerun vs Rai = Duke Homerun has too much power and Sanada's racquet frame hits his face XD

 

[LetalHawk]

Duke Homerun vs Rai = Duke Homerun has too much power and Sanada's racquet frame hits his face XD

With BA, DH will be returned to Duke and blast him into the wall.

 

[Phantron]

Do you think Sanada will return DH Phantron?

I don't know about returning it, but I think he can hit DH without sustaining serious injury. He might drop his racket, but that's not a big deal.

Honestly a player like Yukimura could have an upper hand on Duke in terms of skill but you could easily have a repeat of Kirihara versus Fuji, namely:

Yukimura: "I have a flashback of my past injury for no reason whatsoever."
Some guy: "Watch out!"
Duke: "Duke Homerun!"
Yukimura dies
Game over

I can literally see Duke kill most MSer in a Duke Homerun and that's far too much of an advantage.

 

[Ninomiya]

Since you are the guy who believes Sanada can teleport far up into the audience stands and teleport back onto the court in the midst of a rally, I know how you think about Sanada.
Yukimura has solid strength as shown clearly in the Nationals. His build doesn't match his strength.
Krauser and Kintaro are also perfect examples of this. Krauser does not look like the sort of player that can blow somebody with the build of Nakagauchi out of a court and effectively out of the arena they were in.

DH sent Ishida Gin flying into the air, and it seems before he was in flight, he had already lost consciousness and needed medical attention BEFORE he even landed.
Ishida Gin is somebody who sent Kawamura into the audience stands.

I don't see how you can say "Sanada might drop his racket". Unless we are accounting for the fact that Sanada will use technique to return it, which Yukimura and Tezuka would be able to also do if Sanada can, then Sanada should definetley be hurt by DH.

No way can you tell me Sanada will just drop his racket hahahahaha.

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

With BA, DH will be returned to Duke and blast him into the wall.

LOL?
How do we know this?

 

[Phantron]

Since you are the guy who believes Sanada can teleport far up into the audience stands and teleport back onto the court in the midst of a rally, I know how you think about Sanada.
Yukimura has solid strength as shown clearly in the Nationals. His build doesn't match his strength.
Krauser and Kintaro are also perfect examples of this. Krauser does not look like the sort of player that can blow somebody with the build of Nakagauchi out of a court and effectively out of the arena they were in.

DH sent Ishida Gin flying into the air, and it seems before he was in flight, he had already lost consciousness and needed medical attention BEFORE he even landed.
Ishida Gin is somebody who sent Kawamura into the audience stands.

I don't see how you can say "Sanada might drop his racket". Unless we are accounting for the fact that Sanada will use technique to return it, which Yukimura and Tezuka would be able to also do if Sanada can, then Sanada should definetley be hurt by DH.

No way can you tell me Sanada will just drop his racket hahahahaha.

Your argument seems to be that because people who don't look like they're strong (Kintaro/Krauser) turned out to be very strong therefore someone (Yukimura) who doesn't look like he's very strong must be very strong.

Tezuka and Atobe both have a strength of 3.5. Neither of them have ever shown any signs of great physical strength. Krauser has a strength of 5. He's shown to be able to hit a ball and pin someone to a wall with it.

Yukimura, unlike the characters you cited, has never shown a sign of great physical power. Returning Ryoma's Big Bang is meaningless. The 3.5 strength Atobe returned it easily too against Ryoma. Yukimura is far more likely to be around 3.5 in strength too than 5, and a 3.5 strength guy has no chance of returning DH as a function of strength. You can talk about techs but you got Irie with a speed/tech of 6 that presumably is weaker than Duke (he is below Oni in the reserve team, and Oni is below Duke in the G10). If Duke's power can be overcome so easily Irie would've already beaten him and taken the #3 spot.

Sanada, on the other hand, picked up a guy falling off a cliff with only one hand, which is a pretty significant display of physical power. This is something you'd never expect Tezuka or Atobe to do, so he should be comfortably above 3.5. How much above is anyone's guess, but given his 'fight everything head-on' reputation it wouldn't make sense if he can't return power 5 level strength head on (that's still MS level). Of course Duke's strength exceeds that but there's no more information to work with at this point.

 

[-Ken-]

Yukimura, unlike the characters you cited, has never shown a sign of great physical power. Returning Ryoma's Big Bang is meaningless. The 3.5 strength Atobe returned it easily too against Ryoma. Yukimura is far more likely to be around 3.5 in strength too than 5, and a 3.5 strength guy has no chance of returning DH as a function of strength. You can talk about techs but you got Irie with a speed/tech of 6 that presumably is weaker than Duke (he is below Oni in the reserve team, and Oni is below Duke in the G10). If Duke's power can be overcome so easily Irie would've already beaten him and taken the #3 spot.

Yukimura also return Kintarou ultra mountain storm. That's a pretty powerful move. It IS more dangerous than 108 Hadoukyuu.

 

[Phantron]

Yukimura also return Kintarou ultra mountain storm. That's a pretty powerful move. It IS more dangerous than 108 Hadoukyuu.

Ryoma returned that too, who previously cannot even return the Big Bang. There's no real consistency in how power shots are returned at least in POT. Presumably you can tech your way out of some power shots but if you can tech out of Duke Homerun then Irie, who has a tech and speed of 6, should be G3 right now given you get the rank of whoever you defeated. Now Irie does have a strength of 1, but 3.5 still appears to be in the realm of normal humans (Tezuka/Atobe never did anything that'd require superhuman strength) so I don't see that being enough either to deal with clearly superhuman strength.

 

[-Ken-]

Ryoma returned that too, who previously cannot even return the Big Bang. There's no real consistency in how power shots are returned at least in POT. Presumably you can tech your way out of some power shots but if you can tech out of Duke Homerun then Irie, who has a tech and speed of 6, should be G3 right now given you get the rank of whoever you defeated. Now Irie does have a strength of 1, but 3.5 still appears to be in the realm of normal humans (Tezuka/Atobe never did anything that'd require superhuman strength) so I don't see that being enough either to deal with clearly superhuman strength.

Ryoma return it with Samurai Drive. He didn't have Samurai Drive when he's returning Big Bang. I don't see why we should say Yukimura can't return Duke Homerun when he return every single tech in the story, except for Black Aura and PoP. And guess what, those two aren't tech, they're aura.