Fun Hunter x Hunter Hangout Thread [01]

[futurefrog]

btw everyone i watched today dbz and i noticed then something about hxh
Gon and Killua are a bit like Son Goten and Trunks
what you guys think about it sounds a bit carried away but
could togashi have the idea from dbz?
doesnt matters really i know that Gon and Killua are 1000 times better chars then them but still interesting

Sorry but I dont see this connection other than both being kids.

 

[kindredxiuxiu]

I wouldn't say a bit alike, but I see some similarities there.

I've seen that comparison a bit, especially with regards to Heaven's Arena. I've seen more Trunks and Killua comparisons (both are mischievous and intelligent), and I guess the Goten and Gon comparison followed suit (though I don't see many similarities between those two).

 

[Phantron]

Alluka's power is flat out dumb. You got to be a moron to not be able to trivially circumvent all the obstacles with unlimited wishes on your side. The conclusion you can get is that Killua is dumb and all these guys who died over issues related to Alluka died needlessly and clearly Killua did not view their lives as important as some kind of hypocritical standard Killua applies to himself (he says he doesn't want to abuse the wishes and then uses it anyway when it's convenient). Even if you forgive the fact that this power pretty much only exists to save Gon, it doesn't explain how anyone with a conscious can possibly live with themselves when he asks for help from Morel to deal with Ilumi, resulting all these deaths when he could've simply gotten rid of Ilumi with any number of ways with the power he has at his disposal.

This arc reminds me of a quote from Billionaire Girl: "The way to make people overlook a spectcular failure is to have an even more spectcular failure". It's almost like Togashi knows he's going to go on a long hiatus anyway and everyone's going to hate him, so before going on the hiatus he completely axed Killua as a character, going from a cool-headed reliable guy to a worthless human being, so people will get focused on this part instead of the impending hiatus. The whole arc basically feels artificially bad because it's just not like Togashi to make so many terrible mistakes that I can only imagine it's a way to lower people's expectations so they wouldn't react too strongly to the hiatus.

 

[Demonspeed]

QUOTE=Kiba;3239361]btw everyone i watched today dbz and i noticed then something about hxh
Gon and Killua are a bit like Son Goten and Trunks
what you guys think about it sounds a bit carried away but
could togashi have the idea from dbz?
doesnt matters really i know that Gon and Killua are 1000 times better chars then them but still interesting[/QUOTE]

The main similarity is that they are young fighters.Even if Trunks is cleverer than Goten,he is very impulsive and childish(he is not that different of Goten).The only similarity between Gon/Goten is that they are cheerful.

And their friendship is just not the same.I see more similarities between Naruto/Sasuke and Gon/Killua than Goten/Trunks.

---------- Post added at 09:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

Alluka's power is flat out dumb. You got to be a moron to not be able to trivially circumvent all the obstacles with unlimited wishes on your side. The conclusion you can get is that Killua is dumb and all these guys who died over issues related to Alluka died needlessly and clearly Killua did not view their lives as important as some kind of hypocritical standard Killua applies to himself (he says he doesn't want to abuse the wishes and then uses it anyway when it's convenient). Even if you forgive the fact that this power pretty much only exists to save Gon, it doesn't explain how anyone with a conscious can possibly live with themselves when he asks for help from Morel to deal with Ilumi, resulting all these deaths when he could've simply gotten rid of Ilumi with any number of ways with the power he has at his disposal.



This arc reminds me of a quote from Billionaire Girl: "The way to make people overlook a spectcular failure is to have an even more spectcular failure". It's almost like Togashi knows he's going to go on a long hiatus anyway and everyone's going to hate him, so before going on the hiatus he completely axed Killua as a character, going from a cool-headed reliable guy to a worthless human being, so people will get focused on this part instead of the impending hiatus. The whole arc basically feels artificially bad because it's just not like Togashi to make so many terrible mistakes that I can only imagine it's a way to lower people's expectations so they wouldn't react too strongly to the hiatus.

I agree with you about Killua's insensibility,but he is a Zoldyck after all.In Ch 322,he has shown that lives or some of his butlers were really not important to him(poor Mitsuba...).And can you explain more what are these mistakes?

 

[Phantron]

I agree with you about Killua's insensibility,but he is a Zoldyck after all.In Ch 322,he has shown that lives or some of his butlers were really not important to him(poor Mitsuba...).And can you explain more what are these mistakes?

The problem is Killua is not this heartless guy who only sees other as pawns. If that's the kind of person he is, he'd have no problem simply wishing for himself to become the strongest person in HXH and then he'd have absolutely nothing to fear. Or he can just banish Ilumi to somewhere really far away while he's alone on the airship.

Killua is generally a character who is willing to make necessary sacrifices if the situation calls for it, and throughout the Election Arc we're led to believe that he really had no choice because he needed to save the wish for Gon, so although he was arguably sending a bunch of Hunters to their death by enlisting their help (does he really think random guys Morel recruited is supposed to beat Ilumi?), it's an acceptable risk based on his personality. And then we found out there was no risk at all and he could've done whatever he wanted all along. His only reason to not use his free wishes is because he didn't want to abuse Nanika's trust, and then he immediately wished to banish Ilumi when Ilumi threatened him.

Killua's utter terrible characterization is the biggest mistake of the Election Arc, but there's more than that though they're pretty minor compared to axing your major and most popular main character.

Ging invoked the generic "I had a plan because I said so" clause even though all along we're told he's supposed to be this somewhat spontaneous guy similar to Gon. Instead he apparently become the brain of the Zodiac (which is supposed to be Chidol, who ends up being totally useless) and had your standard 'foresight' that's only possible because Togashi told him if he gets hit by Leorio this will magically get Leorio to the final round. We're also told a guy who is so unpopular that punching him immediately puts you as the 3rd most popular Hunter was always supposed to have enough votes to pass up Pariston's seemingly insurmountable majority, because Pariston said so.

Pariston, a guy who is supposed to be more powerful than the rest of the Zodiac put together in terms of political know-how and scheming power, never actually did anything beyond the standard "My masterplan is working perfectly". It's obvious he's not really supposed to be this super evil guy fairly early into the arc, but he never did anything to show why the rest of the Zodiac feared him so. In the end he's inexplicably a good guy who wasn't even interested in winning the election, and then this ties back to Killua versus Ilumi subplot. We know a bunch of Hunters are literally getting mauled in the city the Hunter's Association is located in but none of the Zodiac could leave because they're too afraid of Pariston's evil scheme, and yet in the end Pariston is a good guy (at least for now) so the conclusion is that the entire Zodiac are morons too as they're gridlocked fighting an imaginery threat while fellow Hunters are literally dying on the street outside. In fact, Pariston is the only guy who is concerned at all that random Hunters are out there getting killed by Ilumi and Hisoka while no one else even cares about their fate, since he threatened Chidol to do something about having murderous psychopaths as fellow Hunterse or he'd actually start getting serious.

Normally Togashi would never invoke the "I had a plan because I said so" clause through Ging, and would actually show what make Pariston so fearsome even if it turns out he's really not a bad guy, and those are the two key figures of the Election Arc. The side characters like Chidol would at least be able to do something to show that they're not just totally useless even if you don't expect them to prevail against Pariston's overwhelming presence. It pales compared to what happened to Killua, but is still a mistake I don't see Togashi making unless he was just trying to purposely lower people's expectations.

 

[ordoghaz]

I don't know what you're on about the zodiacs not doing anything agains Illumi's onslaught on some couple hundred civilians, these people didn't do anything when the ants were on rampage and the were imminent threat to mankind even. and clearly even Illumi was aware how powerful these ants were. I don't think it's totally out of character nor u could imply its bad writing, but it's ur opinion. Hunters are mostly selfish people, from gon, to ging, to netero, etc.

Killua, I agree on some points. But he is stil a kid, and he's got irrational fear on illumi that he acknowledges.

 

[Phantron]

The Hunters are a loosely connected group of good people or there would be no difference between them and the Mafia or the Spiders. They enjoy special privileges (like not having to take responsibility for killing people) but it doesn't mean you can just go on random rampages, as Hunters who commit heinous crimes are hunted down by other Hunters. We're talking about other Hunters, not just civilians, getting killed in the same city the election takes place, and the Zodiac was apparently too busy to do anything about it, but they're also supposed to just go halfway across the world to hunt down Beyond Netero who is undoubtedly way stronger than Ilumi or Hisoka.

I'm not sure where you get the ideas that all Hunters are selfish. Just because Ging said it (and he's clearly super selfish) doesn't make it true. All of the Zodiac, outside of Pariston whose motive is still unknown, are supposed to be good people that Netero trusted. It's obviously implied that the Zodiac must have weighted the danger of being unable to contain Pariston and took their chances, except in the end it turns out Pariston never had any intention of killing people, so it turns out all these Hunters died for nothing because the rest of the Zodiac was preparing to fight an imaginary enemy.

 

[Uriel]

Dumb?
How you would circumvent all the obstacles, huh?
1) Killua doesn't actually cares about who dies if it's not their friends. That was proven in most part of the manga.
2) Killua did not wanted to show his control over Nanika until it was too late. That was why He hesitated a lot to not show Illumi the power of Alluka.
3) Killua just recently found a desire to be a Hunter rather than an assassin, hence his actions up until now. That's why He did not wanted to take out Alluka before.

I fail to see it's dumbness, excuse me.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

BTW, Killua it's not heartless but again...Show me where He shown compassion for the deaths of fodders. PLEASE.

---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------

(I'll answer your other post later :P Now I'm off to see The Hobbit)

 

[kindredxiuxiu]

I agree with the above. Killua has shown improvement in the sense that he isn't the one killing innocent people, but if it's for the sake of people he cares about (i.e. Gon or Alluka), he has no qualms about random civilians dying. He acknowledged it in the Ant arc when Gon lost his nen abilities for that month and he had to protect him. He didn't care if the civilians were ant food, as long as he could escape with Gon while they're getting attacked. As long as he can save Alluka and Gon, a few hunter and civilian casualties are nothing to him. I'd go on a limb and say that Killua's complete disregard for innocent human life is on par if not worse than Gon's freakout over Komugi.

I think Killua showed great progress in Greed Island and somehow went down the slippery slope in the Ant arc which continued into the Election arc. In my opinion, I think his neuroses about his friendship with Gon, family relations, and training/the needle caught up to him.

He probably could have abused Nanika's abilities to get to Gon, but 1) Illumi would've caught onto the plan and Killua's unique rules and 2) he sworn to never use Nanika's abilities like that. And when he did use them to send Illumi away, he apologized and felt bad. I will agree and say he could have gone a better route, but I wouldn't say he's a complete idiot for taking the route he did. Between his fears about Illumi, his own neuroses, going against his family, protecting Alluka, and saving his best friend, that's alot for a 13-14 year old kid to take in. I would expect someone in that situation to make some mistakes here and there.

 

[Phantron]

Um, teleport self + Alluka elsewhere -> teleport Gon to self -> heal Gon -> erase memory of everyone of what's happened?

A slightly more convoluted way would be to just wish for himself to be the strongest person in HXH and then he can easily work his way to the hospital without fear of opposition. They wouldn't be able to spy on him because he can simply clear out any attempt to spy on him after he has become the strongest person in HXH.

Seriously, you are literally asking the question "How can you possibly do X if you have the dragonballs" here. Well you just do X if you have the dragonballs. It's not supposed to be hard.

 

[kindredxiuxiu]

Yeah, the opportunity was there and it would've been the much easier route, but he didn't want to do that. He doesn't want to abuse Nanika like that, so he decided to go with the more difficult option to fix Gon for the sake of Alluka.

 

[Phantron]

Yeah, the opportunity was there and it would've been the much easier route, but he didn't want to do that. He doesn't want to abuse Nanika like that, so he decided to go with the more difficult option to fix Gon for the sake of Alluka.

Killua never intended to pay the full price for a wish to cure Gon to begin with. Looking at Alluak's power, she can teleport stuff at will and presumably manipulate memory at will (in the millionaire wish she teleports an airship full of money and the guys aboard the ship don't even know what happened), while healing requires physical presence, so the 'cure Gon' wish is significantly harder than memory manipulation or teleportation. So you don't want to abuse Alluka on what can be considered as utility abilities she can always use, but it's totally okay to ask for a huge wish (cure Gon) for free? Does adding a couple of minor wishes even matter when you're never planning to pay the price for the big wish?

And even if it does, I thought his goal is to protect Alluka. His indecisiveness put Alluka in significant danger even though he could've circumvented any form of spying by simply teleporting Alluka and himself away. By the way, how do you think Killua even knows that he can just teleport people away with Alluka? If he's so deathly afraid of Ilumi shouldn't he be worried what if he says 'teleport Ilumi away' and Alluka says "I can't do that", as we know there are things she cannot do (like healing remotely)? He obviously abused her in the past to even know what you can or cannot do with her powers, otherwise it's simply crazy to wish for something you're not sure if it'll work against a character you're supposed to be deathly afraid of. I guess you can say Killua didn't want to repeat what he did in the past but he is supposed to be a person who is not afraid to make certain sacrifices and he's taking way too much chance by revealing so much of Alluka's ability when he has a foolproof way to do anything he needs.

 

[kindredxiuxiu]

He also knew the limitations of Alluka's power with regards to healing, as he was the one who insisted he take Alluka with him to heal Gon as she would need to touch him. So it is possible that in the past he used her abilities with his own rules, or Alluka disclosed to him the limitations of her abilities, or both. Other than to his family, I don't think he revealed too much. More people know about Alluka now, but other than the Zoldycks and their butlers, no one else really knows about Killua's method of granting wishes, and some others are aware of Alluka's wish granting abilities. And the rest are aware of the large nen ability that was released and healed Gon. Either way, I don't think Killua would have gotten away without revealing some of her abilities.

The only possible and more effective method I could see is erasing memory (as you mentioned), but I still don't think he would want to abuse her powers like that (and maybe Killua's unique rules don't allow for erasing memory).

And with regards to the first point, I wonder if there is some catch to Killua using Alluka that we're not yet aware of. What if there was a price to pay and no one is aware of it yet? What if it's something that will come back and affect Killua, Alluka, and/or Gon later on?

 

[Demonspeed]

Killua had two goals: to save Gon and protect Alluka.But before he had to be with Alluka.And in order to do that he took many risks.To convince his father he used their promise but he didn't accept the rules of his family and ran away with Alluka.For someone who always lived under strict rules, who live with killers and who respect his father it's already a HUGE risk.

After having angered his father i guess he thought"Father is really pissed i should not break rules like that again,who knows what they can do".So he decided to follow family rules,but before Illumi's call he was still thinking that Silva considered Alluka like a member of the family.When he understood that i guess he thought"WTF?!Alluka is just a tool for them?!,i can use teleportation and cure Gon but i would break the rules again,if i use her like that again i would be like those monsters,also Kanary and Gotoh are here,it would be dangerous for them!"So he decided to run away without using Alluka's powers.

If he had used teleportation he would have saved Gon but he has other friends(Gotoh,Kanary,Leorio) who could have paid the price and also he wanted to respect his father's rules.

We should also not neglect the distance beetween Alluka and the butlers.I am sure that if Killua had said"Alluka or Nanika" the butlers would have killed her in no time.

 

[Phantron]

The whole wishing mechanism makes sense as long as there was some kind of cost.

But right now as far as anyone knows there is no cost for Killua to use Alluka, and then the whole thing becomes a farce because there are any number of ways you can accomplish whatever you need to do with infinite wishes. And no the guys he's fighting aren't so strong to be able to kill him before he can make a wish like 'make me invinicble' or 'evict everyone else'.

By the way this isn't like the Dragonballs in DBZ where you have five guys running toward the dragon and you're trying to make a wish before anyone else does. Killua obviously thought about this ahead of time as to what he's supposed to wish. If he only values Alluka above all else then he should've taken the very safe path of teleport away -> do stuff -> (optional) erase memories -> seal Alluka's wishing powers. Depending on how scared you think Killua might be a wish like 'make me strongest character in HXH' could be a good idea too. The point is that there's no conceiveable way you'd fail with time to plan ahead of time and a trump card like Alluka on your side.

And since it's said that Killua gets wishes for free you can't assume there are hidden costs. He cured Gon without paying anything in return, an act that's actually relatively difficult for Alluka to do (we see she can teleport stuff trivially but needs a nap after healing activities).

 

[Demonspeed]

My bad i typed "here" instead of "her".I was talking about Alluka,but i think you underestimate the butler,even Kurapika who learned Nen in 6 months is able to capture Chrollo with his long chain in split seconds.I don't see why 4 trained butlers could not kill Alluka or even Killua at this distance.

He values Alluka and it's why he wanted to use her like a tool.It's easy to say that he will say Nanika do stuff again and again but for someone who loves his sister so much and who didn't want to do it before.To give her orders consecutively must be very trying for him.

Killua is a killer but he is also very sensible,when Illumi treated Alluka like a tool he even cried.I don't think he could have do that.

By the way,all this made me wonder.Can Alluka resuscitate people?

 

[Phantron]

The only person who can possibly kill Killua before he can finish saying a wish would be Meryem, but that's not even relevent because originally he was making a wish inside the room where Alluka is locked up. He had enough time to make that convoluted 'if then else' wish so he certainly has enough time to say 'teleport us a few thousand miles away'. That'd be instant game over for the rest of the family. They'd have absolutely no recourse and Killua can take his time to figure out the next sequence of wishes to get the job done and clean things up.

We know Killua must have abused Nanika in the past, because otherwise it's impossible for him to know exactly what wishes are possible. Ilumi didn't even think teleportation was possible, but Killua knew it was. The only way he can know is if he tried teleporting something with Nanika before, and he could not have paid the price for that because that'd be way too risky (what's the price to teleport something? Should be way higher than being a millionaire). Even if he made a wish like 'tell me what you're capable of doing' that'd still require a freebie, because again something like this is too dangerous to attempt. You can't place a value on what is the price 'to know Alluka's full powers' and looking at what Alluka charges for even a millionaire wish, if Killua actually attempted these wishes the normal way before then the Z family would've already been wiped out.

He's going to abuse Nanika anyway, because he has no possible way to pay back the price for curing Gon. It's clear his plan all along was to use a free wish on Gon, probably because nobody in HXH can possibly pay back the price you need for such a wish. Even his final wish was for Nanika to not listen to OTHER people's wish. He is still keeping the option for himself.

Killua isn't some lame hypocritical guy who is freaking out about how to handle the power of infinity. He is clearly aware that Nanika's power is crucial to being able to protect her and he's not afraid to use it. He's also selfish enough that he's willing to sacrifice Nanika for his personal happiness as he did when he told Nanika to never come back (and that wish sure looks premediated as opposed to something he randomly thought of). But here's the problem: if you are willing to abuse your wishes and you ultimately don't even care what Nanika thinks, why on earth would you take any chances on whether Alluka gets hurt? Because Killua is not a hypocrite, he should come to the conclusion of something like "I'm going to have to ask for a wish I cannot possibly ever repay, and I'm going to banish Nanika into the void after I'm done anyway, so since I clearly don't care about Nanika's feelings at all, maybe I should ask for a utility teleport and memory erasure to make sure Alluka doesn't needlessly get put into life and death situation."

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

By the way you can surmise Killua's priority is something like:

1. Cure Gon.
2. Protect Alluka.
3. ????
4. Candy
5. Nanika's feelings.

Now let's go back to the Ant arc. Pitou, who is stronger than all the assault team present put together, and who is quite sure he can take out Gon in one hit, still did not wanted to fight him while Komugi is around because he fears any stray hit could kill her.

This means even if you're unfathomably stronger than your opposition you might not be able to keep a random, completely normal person alive in the middle of a serious battle.

It goes without saying Killua expects significant opposition from Ilumi to get Alluka to where Gon is. There's no reason for him to assume Alluka wouldn't die to any stray attack even against say a random guy controlled by Ilumi.

And because Killua isn't some kind of hypocrite that pretends he's holier than thou, and he places Alluka's safety way above anything related to Nanika, he should've used Nanika's teleportation power to get out of this mess. Indeed, even if he did make a wish like 'make me strongest person in HXH', it's not certain Alluka would get out alive. Meryem, after all, failed to protect Komugi against a trivial attack (relative to him) and he was definitely the strongest being in HXH.

 

[shionoro]

I still think it makes sense that he didnt want illumi and the rest to know about her abilities.

For all he knows they could be screening the whole conversation, also some butlers know about it.

He cannot be sure whether the 'erase memory' trick would work, since he would have to make a very concrete wish for that one.

It is very dangerous to wish for anything without being very precise.

Even 'teleport us away' could result in death.

His family is not dumb, i think they are well aware of the fact that he could wish for their memeories to be erased, and now that illumi knows about allukas full abilities, he most certainly will have filed it, or saved it into a needle in his brain or whatever he can do.

The situation is dangerous for killuah, he can wish for anything, but he wont wish for the death of his family.

If he wished for s th like 'alluka, do that our parents wont find us' that could easily result in their death.
Even if he said 'without hurting them' that could be very dangerous or not what he wanted.

I am also certain that allukas abilities will be explained later and i bet they are connected to the dark continent.

 

[Phantron]

I still think it makes sense that he didnt want illumi and the rest to know about her abilities.

For all he knows they could be screening the whole conversation, also some butlers know about it.

He cannot be sure whether the 'erase memory' trick would work, since he would have to make a very concrete wish for that one.

It is very dangerous to wish for anything without being very precise.

Even 'teleport us away' could result in death.

His family is not dumb, i think they are well aware of the fact that he could wish for their memeories to be erased, and now that illumi knows about allukas full abilities, he most certainly will have filed it, or saved it into a needle in his brain or whatever he can do.

The situation is dangerous for killuah, he can wish for anything, but he wont wish for the death of his family.

If he wished for s th like 'alluka, do that our parents wont find us' that could easily result in their death.
Even if he said 'without hurting them' that could be very dangerous or not what he wanted.

I am also certain that allukas abilities will be explained later and i bet they are connected to the dark continent.

Nanika isn't a malicious GM of a Dungeon & Dragons game who tries to screw up your 'wish' casts. In fact Nanika is heavily biased God in favor of Killua, so why would she purposely try to screw up his wishes? It's not like you say "Nanika erase everyone but my memory about your powers" then she just crushes the brain of everyone who knows about her. Nanika's power exceeds the combined human potential (no human in HXH is believed to be able to save Gon) so it implies any human-usable power, she can use them trivially. Ilumi can erase Nanika's existence from Killua, so why would an all-powerful God fail to do the same? You can't have backup plans against God. If Nanika erases your memory it's just flat out gone. Likewise Novu can sort of quasi-teleport stuff across large distances, so of course Nanika can do that too. You don't have a character who is supposed to be deathly afraid of Ilumi that just randomly came up with a 'teleport Ilumi home' without knowing this would work because it'd be way too risky if it did not. Of course Killua knew it was going to work and it'll work safely. Nanika teleported an airship full of cash and people to grant the millionaire wish. Why would she have any problem transporting object across arbitary distances?

Actually the 'free wish' could make sense if Nanika was a malicious GM of a D&D, i.e. you teleport somebody and you end up having them combust because Nanika just hurled something from point A to point B at supersonic speed. You wish to erase someone's memory and it just ends up crushing the brains of all the guys involved. In that case Killua can be reasonably handicapped even armed with infinite wishes, but we know Nanika is anything but a malicious GM.

To use a quote I saw elsewhere, Killua with infinite wishes is equivalent of God, and in HXH you can't fight God, unlike most shonens.

---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

As an aside, all the contingency plan the Z family had assumes Killua gets ONE wish and would need to at least deal with the 3 pesterings. Since most of the convenient wishes like teleport/mass memory erasure/etc are clearly extremely powerful wishes, this means even if Killua is totally selfish and have no concern for lives of others, just the scope of the number of deaths would greatly limit his options. His ideal wish is most likely still 'teleport a few thousand miles away', but as this is considered an incredible power (Ilumi was thrilled when he found out Alluka had a power like that), one would expect the price to pay of being at least hundreds of deaths (there are a lot of millionaires in HXH, but no one can truly teleport). Even if Killua is totally ruthless and just kidnaps a random guy to eat the 3 pesterings, he really has no way of being sure that what if the guy he kidnapped has so few contacts that he ends up being one of the guy killed. There's a very high probability Killua ends up dead as well and while that'd suck, at least the family would definitely survive in this case.

 

[Uriel]

I highly recommend that you re-read that arc, Phan. There are some few assumptions you're making that are not quite it.
And yes, Nanika IS that evil genius, that malicious GM of D&D.