Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Roman]

Re: Well...

There is a set standard for the EMS, Sasuke is no more powerful than Madara for wielding it.

Naruto, on the other hand, received only half of Kurama's chakra and grossly outmatched other tailed beasts.

This is where haxing lays in, is when a power goes beyond the boundaries normally set for the story with no explanation whatsoever.

Kurama is abnormally strong in comparison to other tailed beasts without any explanation given and that my friend is a hax.

EDIT:

In respect to the moderation of this forum I won't touch on this subject beyond what is covered in this topic.

he doesn't have to be more powerful, even if he's on equal grounds with Madara using EMS, it's a hax because the opponent IS Madara.

That's your observation. Naruto and Kurama worked together against 5 tailed beasts that were controlled by Obito. I'm sure Kurama wouldn't stand the same chance against them if they were free of control without Naruto in the picture.

A lot of things weren't explained and they don't really need to. Kurama's power is also so high and big because Naruto has control over it.

He did say that the number of tails say how strong a Bijuu is. It's about one's opinion if he'll take literally or not. The fact is that Kurama's power is being portrayed in the mix with Naruto's power.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

Fair enough, but also realize this, No Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, they are born with normal eyes and it takes a mutation or whatever for them to awaken. Sasuke could have gone all his life with just normal eyes. He was not born with 1, 2 or 3 tomoes in his eyes, he was born like any other child. That is what the Sharingan is right? It is proved by having a certain pattern in your eyes.

We have a very different understanding on this subject.

No Uchiha's born with the Sharingan, but they're born with the potential to unlock it without someone else granting them anything outside of their normal potential. No one has to give them any extra eyes (yet), or inject them with someone elses' DNA (yet) or put a Bijuu inside of them, in order for that strength to be realized.

We do have a very different view on this. It's the same view I've had since 2006. Nothing will change.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

There is a set standard for the EMS, Sasuke is no more powerful than Madara for wielding it.

Naruto, on the other hand, received only half of Kurama's chakra and grossly outmatched other tailed beasts.

This is where haxing lays in, is when a power goes beyond the boundaries normally set for the story with no explanation whatsoever.

Kurama is abnormally strong in comparison to other tailed beasts without any explanation given and that my friend is a hax.

EDIT:

In respect to the moderation of this forum I won't touch on this subject beyond what is covered in this topic.

This is where the problem lies, Believing one to be more hax than the other is blatantly wrong.

Acquiring either is a very long process and could be considered impossible without the right tools, but once acquired they both make the wielders haxed.

They both have added properties compared to theyre predecessors. Its very irritating when one accepts that the Kyuubi is hax and the Sharingan/EMS is not.

Wow. Never actually paid attention to how bleak that situation was until now. And it makes more sense why he opted for Kurama's chakra.

Thanks for that, lol.

Did Sasuke not recieve the Enton orb etc after getting EMS? Sasuke went to Obito to get more power to fight Naruto, Naruto did the same by controlling the Kyuubi. How was that situation bleak?

I know you dislike Naruto, but you are blatantly looking at one side and ignoring the other.

But anything he does with a Sharingan? Anything at all? That's all him. EMS or not.

The EMS was obtained through an outside source, how could you attribute such feats to him and deduct Narutos to the Kyuubis? Makes zero sense.

Being given something with full instructions and being given something with zero instructions are completely different things. Controlling a power you are given is a feat of your own. Using said powers after controlling it is also a feat of your own.

Sasuke and the CS feats are his because he controlled it and used it. Everything you do in life is not a feat of your parents for providing you with said genes or allowing you to live. Getting good grades in school is not a feat of the teachers for providing you with text books, notes etc. They are your feats because you took them further.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/487/8

All the panels before that indicate that Naruto understood that he and Sasuke would not be able to outmatch each other on the level they were at, they would both die. Sasuke accepted Narutos challenge and even went on to take Itachis eyes so he could crush Naruto.

Massive difference here, and you already know what it is, so I'm surprised I have to bring it up: Naruto didn't need to get Kurama's power so that he can SEE. Sasuke needed Itachi's eyes in order to negate his blindness. Naruto didn't go to Kurama to prevent him from losing the power he already had. He went to Kurama to gain something he didn't have: the power to defeat Sasuke.

Sasuke even explicitly states that he needs to crush Naruto with all of "his" power. "His" power was the MS. He was losing that power along with something essential for a fight: the ability to friggin SEE. Naruto was attempting to grow in strength while Sasuke was simply trying to avoid losing his. One was pursuing power. The other was maintaining it.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Massive difference here, and you already know what it is, so I'm surprised I have to bring it up: Naruto didn't need to get Kurama's power so that he can SEE. Sasuke needed Itachi's eyes in order to negate his blindness. Naruto didn't go to Kurama to prevent him from losing the power he already had. He went to Kurama to gain something he didn't have: the power to defeat Sasuke.

Sasuke even explicitly states that he needs to crush Naruto with all of "his" power. "His" power was the MS. He was losing that power along with something essential for a fight: the ability to friggin SEE. Naruto was attempting to grow in strength while Sasuke was simply trying to avoid losing his. One was pursuing power. The other was maintaining it.

Along the way the EMS adds to your already haxxed strength. It does not simply cure blindness does it? Like how Sasuke needed his full power to crush Naruto, Naruto needed his full power to do the same.

The situation was not bleak for either one, taking Narutos admition into account, they both would have died, leaving no victor.

P.S. By your logic, Itachis eyes are not Sasuke powers. They are an outside source. Therefore Sasuke went for outside help to get his "full" power.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Along the way the EMS adds to your already haxxed strength. It does not simply cure blindness does it? Like how Sasuke needed his full power to crush Naruto, Naruto needed his full power to do the same.

Proof? Sasuke as of yet has achieved nothing with his EMS that he couldn't do with his MS. He's just able to do it more often because his eyes aren't blind. He even received his Enton orb while still in basic MS.

The situation was not bleak for either one, taking Narutos admition into account, they both would have died, leaving no victor.

I said that they'd both die. It was just bleak for Naruto because he's actually trying not to kill Sasuke, but bring him back...on top of the fact that he has the strongest Bijuu AND Sage Mode and still confirmed to himself that it wouldn't be enough. Sasuke wanted to destroy the village, but even promised to kill Naruto before killing all the others. Even if he couldn't destroy the village, killing his rival would've been a close second. Naruto dying while killing Sasuke wouldn't save Sasuke, or bring him back, and Naruto would never get the chance to be Hokage. And this is all after finally being acknowledged by the village. He had more to lose than Sasuke did, especially since Sasuke was prepared to die (even going as far as to tell Naruto that he either kills him to become a hero, or becomes one of his victims).

P.S. By your logic, Itachis eyes are not Sasuke powers. They are an outside source. Therefore Sasuke went for outside help to get his "full" power.

You're damned right. Itachi's eyes AREN'T Sasuke's powers. The jutsu used through them are all Sasuke's own techniques, powered by his own chakra. The only thing Itachi did for Sasuke was allow him to continue using his OWN techniques. We don't blame all of Gaara's current feats on Chiyo for bringing him back from the dead do we?

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto 644 Discussion / 645 Predictions

No Uchiha's born with the Sharingan, but they're born with the potential to unlock it without someone else granting them anything outside of their normal potential. No one has to give them any extra eyes (yet), or inject them with someone elses' DNA (yet) or put a Bijuu inside of them, in order for that strength to be realized.

We do have a very different view on this. It's the same view I've had since 2006. Nothing will change.

As Tobirama explained, for one to awaken the Sharingan, something drastic has to happen. That is an outside effect. They do not simply wake up one morning and the Sharingan is on them, no, an outside source in the form of an event is required for them to awaken it. As far as i remember it was trauma right?

Being born with potential does not mean you will realize said potential, like i said, without an outside event an Uchiha would not be able to awaken the Sharingan. Point is, you said because Naruto was not born with the Kyuubi it is not his power, he was born with the potential of being the Kyuubis Jin and he met that potential, Sasuke was born with the potential of awakening the Sharingan and he did. If you count Sasukes sharingan as part of him even though he was not born with it then the Kyuubi is just as much part of Naruto.

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Sasuke's powers didn't grow after gaining Itachi's eyes now did they? He only recovered his eye sight,While on the other hand Naruto was trying to get more power.Sasuke was trying to repair his MS which is his power while Naruto wanted and did get access to Kyuubi's chakra which is an external source of power.

 

[1337 haxor]

Well...

Fair enough, but also realize this, No Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, they are born with normal eyes and it takes a mutation or whatever for them to awaken. Sasuke could have gone all his life with just normal eyes. He was not born with 1, 2 or 3 tomoes in his eyes, he was born like any other child. That is what the Sharingan is right? It is proved by having a certain pattern in your eyes.

We have a very different understanding on this subject.

Tobirama showed that Uchiha's awake their eyes through despair, in other words, it's not that they get a lucky boost of power when god wants them too, they are cursed to get that power when they lose something of enormous importance to them.

So far the Uchiha who didn't awake the Sharingan where those who saw least battle in their lives whereas those who shed most blood became the mosters we acknowledge them for. Their power grows with their insanity and suffering.

Being a Jinchuuriki is different, the power is already inserted into you and all you have to do to use it is work an agreement with the tailed beast.

All the difficulty lays in overcoming the beast's human made hatred and voilà, you are in for near unlimited chakra.

Sage Mode takes weeks, months or even years of training to achieve and it has several drawbacks like having to stay still but Bijuu Mode only takes a single defeat means friendship followed by a massive and constant enhacement to all your abilities for as long as your bijuu wants.

Madara and Hashirama are a more clear example of how innate potential makes a huge difference.

Madara had everything Sasuke had in an even deeper fashion but still failed to match Hashirama because the latter was born with Mokuton, achieved Sage Mode and sported chakra reserves which rivalled even the Nine-Tails.

I take that Naruto always had Jinchuuriki potential and I take that subduing the Nine-Tails is a feat to be recognized but Naruto had help from his parents the whole time so the Kyuubi was basically handed to him with an instruction booklet and Kushina's special chakra chains.

In a sense, Naruto is more of an embodiment of all the people who aided him in the story than an actual power himself.

If we take all of that additional chakra from him, we are left with a Sannin specialized in Fuuton and the Kage Bushin no Jutsu. I take he is at least two times stronger than a Kage but he is not the anti-Madara one man army who single handedly changed the tide of the 4th World War.

Sasuke, for all we know, only ever took power in the form of Itachi's eyes and that's because he was on his way to blindness. Even without Itachi's eyes he was still stronger than Naruto at the point of their confrontation.

It's fair to assume that on the account of innate power, Sasuke surpasses Naruto, however, this series is about Lego Genetics and Hashirama's DNA so any add-on still counts.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Proof? Sasuke as of yet has achieved nothing with his EMS that he couldn't do with his MS. He's just able to do it more often because his eyes aren't blind. He even received his Enton orb while still in basic MS.

Refresh my memory

I said that they'd both die. It was just bleak for Naruto because he's actually trying not to kill Sasuke, but bring him back...on top of the fact that he has the strongest Bijuu AND Sage Mode and still confirmed to himself that it wouldn't be enough.

He had the strongest Bijuu but it was not under his control. Adding that in is a moot point. Naruto did not say after controlling the Kyuubi that he and Sasuke would die or He was no match for Sasuke.

Sasuke wanted to destroy the village, but even promised to kill Naruto before killing all the others. Even if he couldn't destroy the village, killing his rival would've been a close second. Naruto dying while killing Sasuke wouldn't save Sasuke, or bring him back, and Naruto would never get the chance to be Hokage. And this is all after finally being acknowledged by the village. He had more to lose than Sasuke did, especially since Sasuke was prepared to die (even going as far as to tell Naruto that he either kills him to become a hero, or becomes one of his victims).

The point is unchanged that there would be no victor. Naruto was prepared to die along with Sasuke if he could not bring him back. That does not in any way say that Sasuke was stronger.

You're damned right. Itachi's eyes AREN'T Sasuke's powers. The jutsu used through them are all Sasuke's own techniques, powered by his own chakra. The only thing Itachi did for Sasuke was allow him to continue using his OWN techniques. We don't blame all of Gaara's current feats on Chiyo for bringing him back from the dead do we?

So, Without Itachi Sasuke would not have his powers back? Did you not just say this

In that instance, I owe my feats to the man who gave me that power, or at least to the tool inside of me that's granting me that power. Sasuke's CS? That's Orochimaru's doing. Feats performed in CS, those can't be attributed to Sasuke's own level.

Itachis eyes are the tools Sasuke required to use those Jutsu once more, should every Feat Sasuke does from that point on be attributed to Itachis help?

---------- Post added at 06:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 AM ----------

Sasuke's powers didn't grow after gaining Itachi's eyes now did they? He only recovered his eye sight,While on the other hand Naruto was trying to get more power.Sasuke was trying to repair his MS which is his power while Naruto wanted and did get access to Kyuubi's chakra which is an external source of power.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/488/17

---------- Post added at 06:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 AM ----------

Tobirama showed that Uchiha's awake their eyes through despair, in other words, it's not that they get a lucky boost of power when god wants them too, they are cursed to get that power when they lose something of enormous importance to them.

What he showed is that an external event is required for the Sharingan to awaken... Correct?

What you all are saying is that because the Kyuubi is an external source of power, keyword being external, then the feats should be attributed to it. And since Naruto was not born with the Kyuubi that reinforces what you believe.

Then, the same is with the Sharingan. Admittedly, no Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, just the potential to awaken it, meaning they may or may not awaken it. Naruto was also born with the potential/requirements to be the Kyuubis Jinchuuriki, meaning he may or may not have been one. See where this is going?

Being a Jinchuuriki is different, the power is already inserted into you and all you have to do to use it is work an agreement with the tailed beast.

You are making it sound easier than it actually is. Its not like its a walk in the park, its much harder than that. And we have seen out of how many Jins are there who are perfectly synced with theyre Bijuus?

All the difficulty lays in overcoming the beast's human made hatred and voilà, you are in for near unlimited chakra.

Again, you are making it sound incredibly easy. I could say all it takes to awaken the Sharingan is seeing a lot of death. Sounds very easy if put in that context.

Madara and Hashirama are a more clear example of how innate potential makes a huge difference.

That is why i refuse to believe neither Naruto nor Sasuke are on theyre level. Even with whatever power up they get.

I take that Naruto always had Jinchuuriki potential and I take that subduing the Nine-Tails is a feat to be recognized but Naruto had help from his parents the whole time so the Kyuubi was basically handed to him with an instruction booklet and Kushina's special chakra chains.

Sasuke had help from Itachi who continuously fueled his hatred. Your point?

If we take all of that additional chakra from him, we are left with a Sannin specialized in Fuuton and the Kage Bushin no Jutsu. I take he is at least two times stronger than a Kage but he is not the anti-Madara one man army who single handedly changed the tide of the 4th World War.

It is unfair to take ones power in my eyes. I despise his current reliance on the kyuubi but thats what most people do, rely on theyre strongest asset. Sage mode would have been beastly if Naruto learned more Jutsus etc but thats besides the point.

It's fair to assume that on the account of innate power, Sasuke surpasses Naruto, however, this series is about Lego Genetics and Hashirama's DNA so any add-on still counts.

We do not know that for sure. Naruto is stunted because of the Kyuubi. His potential was never met because he practically only has two Parent Jutsus in his Arsenal. He hadnt the knowledge or tutoring to be able to learn a multitude of Jutsu to reach his potential.

This has been discussed endlessly and i seriously do not feel like opening this can of worms.

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

He wasn't lying. He was telling them what he saw/sensed.

You could make the argument that whatever he saw was an illusion of a POSSIBLE future. But you can't change the fact that if they did indeed fight, Naruto would've lost. They both would've lost to be more accurate.

Come to think of it... Itachi fought Sasuke while nearly blind. Against SM Naruto (a Naruto who still had a 5 minute time limit, and still could only make a certain number of clones while in SM) a version of Sasuke who'd just received his Enton Orb, and a final form Susanoo?

Wow. Never actually paid attention to how bleak that situation was until now. And it makes more sense why he opted for Kurama's chakra.

Well, yeah. That's what I said isn't it? LOL, you think I'm ashamed of that shit? Ashamed of comprehending how the manga actually works. Yeah. Thanks for that, lol.

Na, he pussied out of answering honestly, which is more than evident by him saying:

I mean that I can't let any of you face Sasuke. I'm the only one who can fight him.

Why not go with all his friends and win overwhelmingly or at least try to convince him with all Konoha youngsters? He wants to do it alone, selfish as it is.

If both don't win, both lose? I don't see a draw being a loss.

You clearly aren't ashamed and I never hinted to you being in need of some shame for this argument, but okay. :/

We do have a very different view on this. It's the same view I've had since 2006. Nothing will change.

Nothing to safe than, no way and absolutely no reason to even argue about the topic with you. For seven years you already knew what's gonna happen and how things are going to be explained? Long before we got any of the information about the bijuu etc.

Sasuke even explicitly states that he needs to crush Naruto with all of "his" power. "His" power was the MS. He was losing that power along with something essential for a fight: the ability to friggin SEE. Naruto was attempting to grow in strength while Sasuke was simply trying to avoid losing his. One was pursuing power. The other was maintaining it.

What does ANY OF THAT have to do with Sasuke being given a new pair of eyes, ones that magnified his power by a random multitude? Who fucking cares that he did so to maintain his power? The end result is that he was given something in return for nothing and gained an even greater power than before by doing nothing himself. You can avoid the truth as much as you want, but it only shows clear favoritism from your position. Don't be ridiculous please.

We don't blame all of Gaara's current feats on Chiyo for bringing him back from the dead do we?

Why should we blame Chiyo for giving Gaara back the very same thing he had before, if anything less than before? Sasuke gained new and better eyes. Gaara didn't gain a better chakra or life force, nothing new was added to him.

Thanks for the link, but I better make it instantly visible.

What was that about only enabling Sasuke to use his techniques from before?

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

A lot of Naruto fans have wished for this for a very long time. People understand that whatever Naruto does now, so long as the kyuubi is involved, it will be attributed to him helping Naruto.

Was about to counter this, but you said now. Even then though, it's debatable. If Naruto fights like he did in Part I but without Kyuubi interfering, it will all be Naruto regardless of the Kyuubi being in him. Naruto couldn't use Kyuubi's power when he fought Kiba, it was all him. Even against Neji, Naruto was still the one who refused to give up, although he had Kyuubi's help. But in the end, he thought of a way to beat Neji.

Im of the believe that the Kyuubi is still Narutos power. The thing has been inside him long enough to the point where both theyre chakras were mixing.

I disagree. Wasn't it Minato's seal that caused both of their chakras to mix together? I remember that being said in Part I, and possibly in Part II.



I also feel as if I'm the only one who's not taking Naruto's claim that Sasuke would have beaten him as fact. Sasuke was nearly blind, exhausted, and in pain... Naruto should have been able to beat him without too much effort. I still think Naruto was lying... maybe he would have lost to Sasuke at 100%, but not the exhausted and nearly blind Sasuke. Maybe Naruto saw Sasuke turning good?

I also am in full belief that Naruto did not surpass Jiraiya at all. It seems I"m one of the very rare one who thinks that. IN terms of power, Naruto is superior... but overall, Jiraiya is so much better.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Some people tend to take what Naruto said back then too literally. You forget that he's too modest and cares too much for Sasuke. He doesn't really care for power as much as Sasuke does but he did say that they'd both die if they fought. Which is not far from the truth if they pierce themselves in Rasengan/Chidori clash.

So again, it's pretty much useless to talk about who's superior now. They'll both get the last power up soon enough, when it'll be even more complex to talk about who's stronger. Nothing will be revealed until they fight.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Some people tend to take what Naruto said back then too literally. You forget that he's too modest and cares too much for Sasuke. He doesn't really care for power as much as Sasuke does but he did say that they'd both die if they fought. Which is not far from the truth if they pierce themselves in Rasengan/Chidori clash.

So again, it's pretty much useless to talk about who's superior now. They'll both get the last power up soon enough, when it'll be even more complex to talk about who's stronger. Nothing will be revealed until they fight.

What you say about debating who is stronger is true but even in a final clash, so long as Naruto uses the Kyuubis power, people will attribute said feats to being helped by the Kyuubi and that is the sad truth about what will be in the majorities mind.

 

[ninjabot]

Refresh my memory

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/484/9 Amaterasu flames sitting right here in the right hand of his Susanoo. Same as now.

He had the strongest Bijuu but it was not under his control. Adding that in is a moot point. Naruto did not say after controlling the Kyuubi that he and Sasuke would die or He was no match for Sasuke.

Where is this myth that a jinchuuriki needs control of his bijuu inorder to be at full strength coming from? All that needs to happen is for Kurama to take control and Naruto immediately gains access to all of that chakra. He wouldn't be controlling it, but it'd still be used by Kurama to kill Sasuke. A jinchuuriki is the only ninja who can lose a fight and still win.

So, Without Itachi Sasuke would not have his powers back?

Right. Sasuke would not have his powers back without Itachi's eyes.

Itachis eyes are the tools Sasuke required to use those Jutsu once more, should every Feat Sasuke does from that point on be attributed to Itachis help?

Because he's not healing him, or giving him a weapon, or granting him a power that he didn't have to begin with. He's restoring him to the level of strength he had before he went blind. It would be different if Naruto started out Kage level, then, had his chakra ripped out of him and sealed away and Minato simply gave him back that chakra. He's only restoring something that was his from the beginning. That's not what happened though.

Why not go with all his friends and win overwhelmingly or at least try to convince him with all Konoha youngsters? He wants to do it alone, selfish as it is.

I'm not saying his pride had nothing to d with it. I'm saying his pride had tons to do with it. It just doesn't change the fact that pride or no, he saw the future, and it wasn't a good one.

If both don't win, both lose? I don't see a draw being a loss.

That's because you're only looking at it as a one-on-one fight, when it's far more than that. Naruto's fighting Sasuke to:

-protect konoha
-bring his friend back
-finally be considered Sasuke's equal
-prove that anyone can change

If Naruto were to die while killing Sasuke while he was blind and weak, the only thing he would prove is that he wasn't his equal, not everyone can change, he can't keep his promises, and he can't protect Konoha without dying to do it.

That is a loss in every conceivable way.

You clearly aren't ashamed and I never hinted to you being in need of some shame for this argument, but okay. :/

Okay.

Nothing to safe than, no way and absolutely no reason to even argue about the topic with you. For seven years you already knew what's gonna happen and how things are going to be explained? Long before we got any of the information about the bijuu etc.

Yep. I'm good, aren't I? I got foresight like a motherfucker.

What does ANY OF THAT have to do with Sasuke being given a new pair of eyes, ones that magnified his power by a random multitude? Who fucking cares that he did so to maintain his power?

The fact that absolutely NONE of that happened. Sasuke's power hasn't been magnified by any amount whatsoever. His Enton hasn't gotten any hotter. His prediction ability hasn't been enhanced. His chakra reserves haven't grown. His speed hasn't grown. Nothing has changed. At all.

The end result is that he was given something in return for nothing and gained an even greater power than before by doing nothing himself. You can avoid the truth as much as you want, but it only shows clear favoritism from your position. Don't be ridiculous please.

As stated above, none of that happened. None of it. The Sasuke you're seeing now is the same Sasuke befre he went blind. His growth in power is because his access to MS isn't stunted anymore. All you're seeing is his own power.

Sorry.

Why should we blame Chiyo for giving Gaara back the very same thing he had before, if anything less than before? Sasuke gained new and better eyes.

That's a flat out lie. He received eyes that were already blind (Itachi's eyes), yet you're claiming they were better than the ones he already had? As an attempt to make it seem like they're superior to his own?

Gaara didn't gain a better chakra or life force, nothing new was added to him.

Neither did Sasuke. Which was the entire point of the analogy... lol.

What Sasuke felt after receiving Itachi's eyes, was his "light" returning to him. If he actually gained more power, his attacks would be... well... more powerful. Sasuke's strength instead only grows as his hatred does. Naturally for any Uchiha. Also not due to Itachi's aid.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

What you say about debating who is stronger is true but even in a final clash, so long as Naruto uses the Kyuubis power, people will attribute said feats to being helped by the Kyuubi and that is the sad truth about what will be in the majorities mind.

Yeah, that's the main problem. But like I replied to ninjabot, if we debate from an angle that a character is born with a certain ability, then Naruto's ability to wield Kurama is the same as Sasuke's ability to awaken and use Sharingan. Can any other character act as Kurama's container? Can any other character befriend him and draw out his full power? We all know the answer to that. Also, all those who argue about Kurama being present probably have a slight suspicion that Sasuke would lose if Naruto uses full Kurama's power with Sage Mode. It all comes down to an opinion and liking towards a character, like I always say.

 

[jaymizzo]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

Was about to counter this, but you said now. Even then though, it's debatable. If Naruto fights like he did in Part I but without Kyuubi interfering, it will all be Naruto regardless of the Kyuubi being in him. Naruto couldn't use Kyuubi's power when he fought Kiba, it was all him. Even against Neji, Naruto was still the one who refused to give up, although he had Kyuubi's help. But in the end, he thought of a way to beat Neji.

That is true, I would never dispute Naruto being resourceful without the Kyuubi but currently half the things he does is using the Kyuubi. I believe it is as much his power as the Sharingan is and most of the logic being thrown around would still mean thats his power just the same as the Sharingan is to an Uchiha.

I disagree. Wasn't it Minato's seal that caused both of their chakras to mix together? I remember that being said in Part I, and possibly in Part II.

True, i forgot about that, but it does not change the fact that controlling the Kyuubi or changing it was completely optional. Naruto could have gone all his life without using the Kyuubi, he has a very large Chakra reserve as an Uzumaki. But the point is, he managed to tame it and use its powers as his own.

Anyone who refuses to attribute Narutos feats while using the Kyuubis power as his own feats would really need to explain why that is. Its not as simple as "he was not born with it so its not his power"

I also feel as if I'm the only one who's not taking Naruto's claim that Sasuke would have beaten him as fact. Sasuke was nearly blind, exhausted, and in pain... Naruto should have been able to beat him without too much effort. I still think Naruto was lying... maybe he would have lost to Sasuke at 100%, but not the exhausted and nearly blind Sasuke. Maybe Naruto saw Sasuke turning good?

Thats the sad thing, Naruto never said he would lose against Sasuke.

I also am in full belief that Naruto did not surpass Jiraiya at all. It seems I"m one of the very rare one who thinks that. IN terms of power, Naruto is superior... but overall, Jiraiya is so much better.

You are not in the minority, sadly

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/484/9 Amaterasu flames sitting right here in the right hand of his Susanoo. Same as now.

Ah, never actually saw that.

Where is this myth that a jinchuuriki needs control of his bijuu inorder to be at full strength coming from? All that needs to happen is for Kurama to take control and Naruto immediately gains access to all of that chakra. He wouldn't be controlling it, but it'd still be used by Kurama to kill Sasuke. A jinchuuriki is the only ninja who can lose a fight and still win.

It is not a myth, Naruto would die if the Kyuubi took full control and broke out of the cage (correct me if im wrong, i remember that being the danger). For Naruto to believe that they both would die means that he knows that he himself would not win.

Naruto controlling the Bijuu is much more powerful than it taking him over. We have seen the benefits of such a situation.

Right. Sasuke would not have his powers back without Itachi's eyes.

So you admit that Sasuke required an external tool to get his powers back right? You said a tool is not part of a Shinobi, does that not apply to Itachis eyes?

Because he's not healing him, or giving him a weapon, or granting him a power that he didn't have to begin with.

Sasuke did not have the power to negate the blindness from the usage of the MS or negate its effects nor did he have the ability to endlessly spam MS Jutsu without worrying about any drawbacks. EMS erased all of that. Therefore that is additional power he did not have.

He's restoring him to the level of strength he had before he went blind.

So would Sasuke not use a different wording rather than saying he is getting stronger? Especially after saying he can feel Itachis power is flowing into him?

I'm not saying his pride had nothing to d with it. I'm saying his pride had tons to do with it. It just doesn't change the fact that pride or no, he saw the future, and it wasn't a good one.

For both.

As stated above, none of that happened. None of it. The Sasuke you're seeing now is the same Sasuke befre he went blind. His growth in power is because his access to MS isn't stunted anymore. All you're seeing is his own power.

Lets put it this way. The Kyuubi is Narutos Sharingan.

When Sasuke gained the Sharingan, his attributes improved, he gained abilities he never had, once he mastered the Sharingan he became a better Shinobi.

After getting the MS, he gained additional power that he never had.

Same with Naruto, he was late to control the Kyuubi therefore late to gain its extra attributes. You cannot slate one without slating the other.

What Sasuke felt after receiving Itachi's eyes, was his "light" returning to him. If he actually gained more power, his attacks would be... well... more powerful. Sasuke's strength instead only grows as his hatred does. Naturally for any Uchiha. Also not due to Itachi's aid.

That goes against Sasukes statement about what he was feeling. The MS addmitedly did not make Sasuke faster or stronger, losing it would not have taken away his key attributes. Him saying that he is getting stronger means exactly that, he is getting stronger.

What you believe would him being saying "I can feel my power returning to me" not " I can feel myself getting stronger"

 

[M3J]

Some people tend to take what Naruto said back then too literally. You forget that he's too modest and cares too much for Sasuke. He doesn't really care for power as much as Sasuke does but he did say that they'd both die if they fought. Which is not far from the truth if they pierce themselves in Rasengan/Chidori clash.

So again, it's pretty much useless to talk about who's superior now. They'll both get the last power up soon enough, when it'll be even more complex to talk about who's stronger. Nothing will be revealed until they fight.

Judging from how they've tied, I find it hard to believe they'll both die from the rasengan/chidori clash. That whole conversation between them is just too damn weird to be honest.

That is true, I would never dispute Naruto being resourceful without the Kyuubi but currently half the things he does is using the Kyuubi. I believe it is as much his power as the Sharingan is and most of the logic being thrown around would still mean thats his power just the same as the Sharingan is to an Uchiha.

Almost everything he's done in this war is due to the Kyuubi, to be honest.

You can't compare Sharingan, a kekkei genkai, to Kyuubi. The Kyuubi is more like what Taka was for Sasuke or Team 7 was for Kakashi. The KYuubi is sentient and chooses to help, Sharingan can't think at all and is controlled entirely by its user.

I think only the Kyuubi chakra that Naruto stole is his own power. he's the one who had to use it completely without the Kyuubi's help, even going through training to be able to use the chakra arms precisely.

True, i forgot about that, but it does not change the fact that controlling the Kyuubi or changing it was completely optional. Naruto could have gone all his life without using the Kyuubi, he has a very large Chakra reserve as an Uzumaki. But the point is, he managed to tame it and use its powers as his own.

He never tamed the Kyuubi, that's not Naruto. He befriended the Kyuubi and made it his butt buddy, hence why Kyuubi gives away chakra for free now without hesitation.

Anyone who refuses to attribute Narutos feats while using the Kyuubis power as his own feats would really need to explain why that is. Its not as simple as "he was not born with it so its not his power"

Depends. Is this Naruto after stealing Kyuubi's chakra? Then it's all Naruto. If this is whenever Kyuubi lends its power to Naruto, then it's almost the same as Taka helping Sasuke when they fought Bee.

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/488/17

"Itachi's power is flowing into me" - Yeah,Itachi's power was flowing into him to restore the power that has been lost (His vision and if he does become blind how would he able to use Amaterasu or even normal Sharingan genjutsu,Both of which are his own powers.)

"I can feel myself getting stronger" - Getting stronger in that state of his then.He was weakened and he was getting stronger in his weakened state,He was getting back the vision and the ocular powers.

His overall abilities weren't enhanced.His Physical strength,Stamina,Speed haven't been enhanced.He restored his vision and the powers associated with his MS.His techniques didn't change in power.He didn't even get any weaponry like Yata mirror and Totsuka sword.He didn't get access to any new techniques.

Naruto had everything enhanced for him.He now has access to literally tons of chakra (Well he always had but he had to let Kyuubi take over him).His chakra shroud's defence is fantastic.He is very very quick.His physical strength has been enhanced by a great margin.All of this just by befriending the Kyuubi.(He didn't really fight Dark Naruto in him,He just hugged him and DN dissapeared.He didn't fight the Kyuubi himself to gain it's chakra,Kushina appeared and helped him) While Sasuke didn't have any drastic improvements in his abilities.

There's no concrete proof of Sasuke getting Itachi's "power",Whatever it is supposed to be.There's no clear evidence that Sasuke got Itachi's chakra reserves through the eyes.Itachi relies on genjutsu which cannot be transfered to Sasuke directly.The user needs to be skilled and it's not something that can be given to others.Itachi doesn't have much to offer.Sasuke didn't get a hybrid Susanoo by implanting Itachi's eyes did he? (Besides Itachi's version of Susanoo seems to be weak) No he didn't.He simply got back his vision and the ability to use Amaterasu.

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12 - Part 1

"Itachi's power is flowing into me" - Yeah,Itachi's power was flowing into him to restore the power that has been lost (His vision and if he does become blind how would he able to use Amaterasu or even normal Sharingan genjutsu,Both of which are his own powers.)

"I can feel myself getting stronger" - Getting stronger in that state of his then.He was weakened and he was getting stronger in his weakened state,He was getting back the vision and the ocular powers.

His overall abilities weren't enhanced.His Physical strength,Stamina,Speed haven't been enhanced.He restored his vision and the powers associated with his MS.His techniques didn't change in power.He didn't even get any weaponry like Yata mirror and Totsuka sword.He didn't get access to any new techniques.

Naruto had everything enhanced for him.He now has access to literally tons of chakra (Well he always had but he had to let Kyuubi take over him).His chakra shroud's defence is fantastic.He is very very quick.His physical strength has been enhanced by a great margin.All of this just by befriending the Kyuubi.(He didn't really fight Dark Naruto in him,He just hugged him and DN dissapeared.He didn't fight the Kyuubi himself to gain it's chakra,Kushina appeared and helped him) While Sasuke didn't have any drastic improvements in his abilities.

There's no concrete proof of Sasuke getting Itachi's "power",Whatever it is supposed to be.There's no clear evidence that Sasuke got Itachi's chakra reserves through the eyes.Itachi relies on genjutsu which cannot be transfered to Sasuke directly.The user needs to be skilled and it's not something that can be given to others.Itachi doesn't have much to offer.Sasuke didn't get a hybrid Susanoo by implanting Itachi's eyes did he? (Besides Itachi's version of Susanoo seems to be weak) No he didn't.He simply got back his vision and the ability to use Amaterasu.

Two different comprehensions, maybe yours is wrong, maybe his, but I'm not sure how we can know for sure until all of Sasuke's attacks are shown, the manga is stalling far too much on that department for the the inevitable Sasuke&Naruto ending.

Getting eyes back not having to fear of losing Sousano despite excessive usage is no enhancment? It is by any definition so, so why argue against facts clearly stated in the manga. EMS are an enhanced version of what Sasuke had.

Why are you even mentioning those enhancements through the bijuu mode, when it was Naruto approaching Sasuke's levels at that time? Did Naruto have an impervious shield and magic arrow spewing monster at his disposal? Or eternal fire or mind fucking illusions?

What got you so upset that you felt the need to talk down Naruto's achievement by putting Kushina into the discussion. The objective of your post is more than clear by that single action alone. :/