Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Schabrak]

Those changes were realistic.

And this is crux of the problem, this manga and Kishimoto haven't tried to be realistic in a long, long time now.

 

[Rikudou King]

It might've appeared so, yes. Kurama was surprised and flipped a coin once Naruto said that he'll do something about his hatred but considering what type of character Naruto is and how long Kurama has been watching him, it's not hard to believe that he was influenced by Naruto's chakra and character all along. This is where interpreting between the lines comes. Also, you forget about the hatred in Naruto, whose disappearance made a huge deal, as well, with Kurama's transformation into good.

They all mistreated him, specifically previous Jins. They weren't as harsh as Madara manipulating him and treating him like a tool, but it's harsh enough to ignore him and contain him in silence without ever showing interest in him.

Except as you mentioned, the Kyuubi would have been influenced by Naruto's darkness most of the time. It being influenced by Naruto's goodness would have only happen over a day or so. So the interpretation would require one to believe that the Kyuubi was never that evil, which simply doesn't fit with it's previous actions and the literal showing of it's chakra being pure malice.

Well I wouldn't call ignoring it mistreatment, but anyway, Naruto did the same. It was the Kyuubi who initiated contact at that time. Naruto didn't show an actual interest til the whole situation with the other Bijuus.

 

[Schabrak]

No it does not matter how long it took... at the end of the day it only matters if it was believable or not... and for me this simply wasn't the case.

Good, our opinions don't match, end of argument.

You mean it now isn't, because that is how it had been design before. And the issue is that Naruto didn't do anything to change the Kyuubi. All Naruto did was promise something and the Kyuubi suddenly stop hating him. it wouldn't be such a big deal had the change happen after Naruto had proven himself, but it didn't. It happen before, with the retcon that the Kyuubi had always been watching Naruto and held faith in him. If Naruto's determination was the key, then it just doesn't make sense that the Kyuubi attempted to kill Naruto a short time before.

Also, the only person shown mistreating the Kyuubi was Madara, perhaps KinGin too. There couldn't have been any beforehand, as the means to do so didn't exist as far as we have been told.

Did he really say that he had faith from the beginning, not only after Naruto gained RM?

The two other Uzumaki hosts weren't really friendly either, both held him down, suppressed Kurama with their spirit chains.

 

[Rikudou King]

No. But during the situation with the Yonbi, the Kyuubi has a bunch of flashbacks of Naruto's past actions and then suggest that's why it believes that Naruto would succeed.

I agree they weren't friendly, but there didn't seem any malice in their actions either. They didn't do it because they "hated" it, they did it because there was no other option.

 

[Schabrak]

He did reconceive what he has observed over the last decade and a half, I don't see the problem. By that point Kurama has openly supported him, has sharred the RM flashback, has seen the other Biju react to Naruto, has seen Naruto champion for them, has seen that he's different from the rest. Both had been treated badly for being what they are, both innocent but hated. Naruto got out and tried to help Kurama too.

They had the option to try and talk, but I don't think they really did or could change the nine-tails. They didn't live Naruto's live, Kushina wasn't hated and neither did Hashirama's wife. Circumstances are the key reasons for Naruto and Kurama bonding.

 

[Rikudou King]

The "problem" is that the Kyuubi was supporting him before that point, before he stood up for them or proved himself. Now to say that the Kyuubi saw all that Naruto went through and due to their similar circumstances chose to give him a chance is fine, but that really doesn't fit with the Kyuubi that was shown the arc before, perfectly willing to sacrifice it's own body to murder Naruto. It can't be denied that there was a sudden and massive change in the Kyuubi's personality just so things would work out. Zabuza, Neji, Gaara, even Nagato, they all changed after Naruto proved himself, not before.

 

[M3J]

This is why I always say that many readers have inability to perceive common sense. They only believe or see what's literally said in the manga. I'm sure a lot them had perusals in schools, reading stories which have a plot but leave you with your own interpretations many times. There are such instances in this story, as well, which can leave you like that.

What's common sense? Common sense isn't always universally the same.

You seem to only believe literally as well with your own interpretations. I've noticed that anything bad about Naruto tends to be seen as someone's opinion or interpretation while anything good about Naruto is always a fact.

I have to say I agree with this, specially with the bolded part. Maybe it was harsh but I do think that every person in these discussions has at least an average IQ, which is why I'm baffled sometimes because of interpreting things in the story. I brought elementary school in the question because it was precisely that which reminded me of not taking everything as it is or isn't as some things in stories need your own interpretations between the lines.

Again, your interpretation is no different from others' as well. You interpret it in a way that makes Naruto look powerful, ninjabot probably interprets it in a way that doesn't make Naruto look powerful, and I interpret it as what it actually is.

 

[Roman]

Except as you mentioned, the Kyuubi would have been influenced by Naruto's darkness most of the time. It being influenced by Naruto's goodness would have only happen over a day or so. So the interpretation would require one to believe that the Kyuubi was never that evil, which simply doesn't fit with it's previous actions and the literal showing of it's chakra being pure malice.

Well I wouldn't call ignoring it mistreatment, but anyway, Naruto did the same. It was the Kyuubi who initiated contact at that time. Naruto didn't show an actual interest til the whole situation with the other Bijuus.

He was influenced by both parts, the darker one having a bigger role once he went on rampage. Maybe he wasn't so evil, maybe he just acted that way because he didn't want to feel any hope that there would be someone who's different than others.

It was a quid pro quo situation, if you ask me, and Kurama reacted first, simply because Naruto has something that could change anyone. Another example of readin between the lines.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------

What's common sense? Common sense isn't always universally the same.

You seem to only believe literally as well with your own interpretations. I've noticed that anything bad about Naruto tends to be seen as someone's opinion or interpretation while anything good about Naruto is always a fact.



Again, your interpretation is no different from others' as well. You interpret it in a way that makes Naruto look powerful, ninjabot probably interprets it in a way that doesn't make Naruto look powerful, and I interpret it as what it actually is.

Not really, what's bad about someone's interpretation is that it could be wrong. Anything "bad" about Naruto is in most cases just wrong.

No, I interpret it according to manga and events. You interpret it with whatifs and compare his predecessors with him and question his own way of doing things when manga clearly shows us the level of his ability.

 

[Schabrak]

The "problem" is that the Kyuubi was supporting him before that point, before he stood up for them or proved himself. Now to say that the Kyuubi saw all that Naruto went through and due to their similar circumstances chose to give him a chance is fine, but that really doesn't fit with the Kyuubi that was shown the arc before, perfectly willing to sacrifice it's own body to murder Naruto. It can't be denied that there was a sudden and massive change in the Kyuubi's personality just so things would work out. Zabuza, Neji, Gaara, even Nagato, they all changed after Naruto proved himself, not before.

You mean the end of the Pain fight? The moment when Naruto was on the losing side with no way out, Hinata confessing her love to him while dying and Kurama going beserk was the only way for it not to die forever, being fused into the Juubi?

And? Who cares how he did it in the past? Naruto proving himself took time, it was a process, one in which Kurama started to warm up to Naruto, even willingly support him, while not fully trusting him. You can keep ignoring it, I don't care anymore. It's clearly not the best depiction of it, why do I feel like I repeat myself for the Xth time.... Kishimoto was not good at what he tried to do. But what are you gonna do?

proc·ess 1 (prss, prss)
n. pl. proc·ess·es (prssz, prss-, prs-sz, prs-)
1. A series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result:

 

[M3J]

Not really, what's bad about someone's interpretation is that it could be wrong. Anything "bad" about Naruto is in most cases just wrong.

No, I interpret it according to manga and events. You interpret it with whatifs and compare his predecessors with him and question his own way of doing things when manga clearly shows us the level of his ability.

How is it wrong? Again, interpretation would depend on the person - what you see as wrong wouldn't necessarily be wrong. Anything "bad" about Naruto isn't wrong in most cases, but that depends on who's saying it.

You also interpret it based on what you want to see. I interpret it deeper than that. If the manga says and shows Naruto's bad chakra control, you'd believe it, probably. I'd just wonder about it if there were indications he did have good chakra control.

Naruto's own way of doing things isn't necessarily the correct way. Using a clone to make rasengan isn't the correct way, and I'd say the same if it was Minato or Jiraiya. Hell, I'd even say Naruto improved it if he was the first out of the four (three predecessors) to do one-handed rasengan.

There's nothing wrong with comparing to predecessors, especially when it's about new surpassing the old. Naruto's ability to make rasengan doesn't seem to be good, but he's the only one who completed the jutsu AND took it a step further to create a new jutsu.

You mean the end of the Pain fight? The moment when Naruto was on the losing side with no way out, Hinata confessing her love to him while dying and Kurama going beserk was the only way for it not to die forever, being fused into the Juubi?

And? Who cares how he did it in the past? Naruto proving himself took time, it was a process, one in which Kurama started to warm up to Naruto, even willingly support him, while not fully trusting him. You can keep ignoring it, I don't care anymore. It's clearly not the best depiction of it, why do I feel like I repeat myself for the Xth time.... Kishimoto was not good at what he tried to do. But what are you gonna do?

The Kyuubi went from wanting to kill Naruto to break free to becoming lovey dovey and trusting every humans, especially Naruto, in less than few chapters. At least Orochimaru might have a hidden purpose, and Sasuke hasn't completely changed to being a nice guy. It's like seeing Naruto go 180 just from a conversation with Tobi, despite his beliefs and will to protect people.

 

[Roman]

How is it wrong? Again, interpretation would depend on the person - what you see as wrong wouldn't necessarily be wrong. Anything "bad" about Naruto isn't wrong in most cases, but that depends on who's saying it.

You also interpret it based on what you want to see. I interpret it deeper than that. If the manga says and shows Naruto's bad chakra control, you'd believe it, probably. I'd just wonder about it if there were indications he did have good chakra control.

Naruto's own way of doing things isn't necessarily the correct way. Using a clone to make rasengan isn't the correct way, and I'd say the same if it was Minato or Jiraiya. Hell, I'd even say Naruto improved it if he was the first out of the four (three predecessors) to do one-handed rasengan.

There's nothing wrong with comparing to predecessors, especially when it's about new surpassing the old. Naruto's ability to make rasengan doesn't seem to be good, but he's the only one who completed the jutsu AND took it a step further to create a new jutsu.

If it contradicts that which manga says, it's wrong.

No, I'm not. Everything I've ever said wasn't amplified or downplayed. It's simply that which happened in the manga. Why would I go any deeper than that if it's not required? It's a shounen with simple hero's progression. Complicating things makes no sense.

It doesn't have to be correct way, I never said that. But it is a better way and a way which surpassed the original way. Simple as that.

It doesn't seem to you, but according to manga, it seems very much so since he took it to the next level and is defeating countless enemies with it.

 

[M3J]

My interpretation is that Naruto did have decent to good chakra control back in Part I, but that he was bad at using huge amount of chakra, at least for summoning. Is it wrong because it contradicts what the manga SAYS, mostly, but not what it SHOWS?

If you're wasting time defending Naruto, then you shouldn't mind going deeper. The manga isn't as simple or was as simple as people make it out to be. Naruto in Part I was probably one of hte most complex shounen characters - acts arrogant and boisterous but he feels like a failure and wants to work hard to be acknowledged. Him shouting at Inari and Kakashi's explanation for the way Naruto reacted made Naruto even cooler and more complex in my opinion. Now, I guess everything is just simple and one-layered, with black and white.

How is it a better way or surpassed the original way?

Completing it and taking it to the next level are the only way we know he's surpassed Jiraiya and Minato. We don't know if either did defeat countless enemies with rasengan, though.

 

[Delbi]

And this is crux of the problem, this manga and Kishimoto haven't tried to be realistic in a long, long time now.

His consistency is off though. In the beginning of the this story people had realistic emotions, thought realistically, and were more human. He's dumbed down everyone considerably for the sake of a story that's he's written into the ground because he lacked the foresight and intelligence to not write another DBZ knock off.

 

[REN KOUEN]

Yes i agree with m3j

naruto had above average chakra control as you could see in his fight with neji and the focus to maintain control when kabuto stabbed his hand he was still able to use the rasengan which he had just learned

but having so much chakra makes it harder to control for sure

especially when he loses his cool and the kyuubis chakra would take over

 

[Rikudou King]

He was influenced by both parts, the darker one having a bigger role once he went on rampage. Maybe he wasn't so evil, maybe he just acted that way because he didn't want to feel any hope that there would be someone who's different than others.

It was a quid pro quo situation, if you ask me, and Kurama reacted first, simply because Naruto has something that could change anyone. Another example of readin between the lines.

There wasn't anything to suggest it was being influence by both parts, else it makes no sense for him to have such compete for Naruto to the point if sacrificing it's own body just for the chance to kill him.

There's a difference between reading between the lines and writing in the lines not there.

You mean the end of the Pain fight? The moment when Naruto was on the losing side with no way out, Hinata confessing her love to him while dying and Kurama going beserk was the only way for it not to die forever, being fused into the Juubi?

And? Who cares how he did it in the past? Naruto proving himself took time, it was a process, one in which Kurama started to warm up to Naruto, even willingly support him, while not fully trusting him. You can keep ignoring it, I don't care anymore. It's clearly not the best depiction of it, why do I feel like I repeat myself for the Xth time.... Kishimoto was not good at what he tried to do. But what are you gonna do?

No, I meant in their fight for the Kyuubi's chakra. The Kyuubi was shown to still be full of malice and had such hatred towards Naruto that it was willing to draw upon it's own life force just to kill him.

The entire point is that Naruto never proved himself to the Kyuubi before it started helping him. There was no "warming up" period between them or "learning to trust". So I don't see how I'm ignoring something that was never shown. You acknowledge that it wasn't depicted, yet you try to justify it happening anyway. Exactly what is wrong will calling it what it is?

 

[Delbi]

especially when he loses his cool and the kyuubis chakra would take over

That was never really a chakra control issue but an emotional control issue. As the seal weakened, the Kyuubi was able to pray on his emotions and have his chakra possess Naruto. Naruto was never really fighting above 4 tails, that was all pure rage and the Kyuubi. Even at 2-3 tails it can be argued that Naruto had little to no control over his actions as he repeatedly put his comrades in harms way.

It was only when he fought Sasuke in the one tailed state that he control as he chose not to try and kill Sasuke and instead cut his forehead protector. After that, Jiraiya messed with the seal and Naruto really never had control over the Kyuubi's chakra unless he was just tapping into a small portion of it which resulted in his eyes changing (he did this while fighting Kakazu).

 

[Schabrak]

No, I meant in their fight for the Kyuubi's chakra. The Kyuubi was shown to still be full of malice and had such hatred towards Naruto that it was willing to draw upon it's own life force just to kill him.

The entire point is that Naruto never proved himself to the Kyuubi before it started helping him. There was no "warming up" period between them or "learning to trust". So I don't see how I'm ignoring something that was never shown. You acknowledge that it wasn't depicted, yet you try to justify it happening anyway. Exactly what is wrong will calling it what it is?

Could you name the chapter please?

not the best depiction

Not, no depiction. I don't see how else Kurama could have changed his mind, but by showing how his brothers and sisters could life a different life and Naruto actively champion for them. There was simply no time for other bonding between the war and the beginning of their training. You wish for something that could have never been within the inverse time line.

 

[M3J]

The chapter where Kyuubi tried to kill him using its own life force? Read the ending of Naruto vs. Kyuubi when Naruto stole its chakra successfully.

 

[Schabrak]

Thanks, I somehow took it as something during the Pain invasion...

Kurama's chakra is his life force, it regenerates, I don't see the threat in doing so. It had two jinchuuriki before Naruto, both not talking or treating it in pleasant way there comes a third one, trying to do keep him under control even more. Of course it would try whatever it could to fend itself, who wouldn't? After a hundred years of slavery, after it finally got free of the struggle, it just happens to be sealed away again, so of course it would try to act out again, when it could. Because of the long isolation and time it began to use it's hatred to fuel it's powers, likely similar to how Sasuke did during the Danzou fight. But it wasn't hatred itself, it wanted to rage because it was treated badly after the father was gone.

Within a rather short time he got to see how other biju are better, see the difference of Naruto to others, realize their parallels, and start to support him. So it took a couple days or hours within the manga, so what? It's not impossible, it happens in reality too, like it or not.

Would I have liked to see a alternative where the bad monster stays evil until the end? Yeah, why not, but those types of inner monster can be seen in so many other manga already too, it wouldn't be suprising or original.

 

[Rikudou King]

Could you name the chapter please?

Chp 499, A New Seal.

Not, no depiction. I don't see how else Kurama could have changed his mind, but by showing how his brothers and sisters could life a different life and Naruto actively champion for them. There was simply no time for other bonding between the war and the beginning of their training. You wish for something that could have never been within the inverse time line.

Exactly what's wrong with that depiction? Having the change of heart come after Naruto proved himself instead of before would have made prefect sense and probably more accepted.