Discussion PIS and eternal sunsets.

[tobirama]

Re: Attack on Logic

Animals would not work, even if they did would be MUCH less efficient than smoke signals.
So you see a Deviant Titan running in the formation, you get own a notebook and quill/ink-pot (they didn't have pens back then) while on a horse, write a note, tie to a bird that's somehow on the horse, tell it to go to command, it then flies of, Irwin receives so many notes it takes a few minutes to read them all and see where they come from, then sends his bird out to deliver a note to everyone telling them to change coarse. Or just get out a black flare and fire it so everyone can see.

The only animal that could do it fast enough are birds and how do you keep them on horses? How does Iwrin receive all the notes constantly and compare where they're from before deciding where to go (with smoke he just looks up and see's what direction the smoke points in)? How do birds know where to go on the formation that is constantly moving? How do you have time to write notes/read them? How does Iwrin send a bird out to everyone telling them where to go? How do people on the formation know where Titans are if the signals can only communicate between Irwin and individual soldiers (if you're on the SC constantly look around to see if there are smoke signals). Plus birds can become injured, picked of by predators, and take a while to go across the formation whereas smoke is instant.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but there's no way the SC could use birds or animals like that.

i didnt mean during intense battles, i meant in situations like connie's village instead of people having to rush by horse to warn people of incoming titans a bird would get there in ample time (as they could train birds to fly from one place to another i.e point a to point b
within the wall) and carrying a bird or two during missions is quite easy, thus having a bird capable of flying from where ever, in the outside world back to base would insure even if all members of the scouting legion died it wouldnt be in vain as the info would be delivered to humanity

 

[epictoads]

Re: Attack on Logic

i didnt mean during intense battles, i meant in situations like connie's village instead of people having to rush by horse to warn people of incoming titans a bird would get there in ample time (as they could train birds to fly from one place to another i.e point a to point b
within the wall) and carrying a bird or two during missions is quite easy, thus having a bird capable of flying from where ever, in the outside world back to base would insure even if all members of the scouting legion died it wouldnt be in vain as the info would be delivered to humanity

Maybe it would be useful in the situation with the Ape-Titan but that was unexpected. I haven't seen birds around the series anyway so getting/breeding them then training would take a while. I don't think they would think of that at the point they are at. I think they have domesticated dogs but not birds. Not saying it wouldn't be useful just that it would be awkward and they probably haven't considered training birds like that. You have to consider that things we take as normal now would be unthinkable 100 years ago. Then again I think we used hawks and stuff for hunting at that time but I'm not sure.

 

[KingOfNight]

There are two things in my mind about SnK that I just had to come here and bitch about.

1-Eternal sunsets.

2-Plot induced stupidity.

First one is somewhat irrelevant( and no, it has nothing to do with the Eternal Sunset of Kenichi), but the second is when it gets real.

First thing I'm gonna talk about, is the eternal sunsets.

I don't know if that's just an Anime thing, but for some reason, every time something relevant happens, it's at sunset! A sunset, that apparently never ends, not while titans are around. Let's look back at things :

Colossal Titan's first appearance, death of Eren's mom and the Armored Titan attack. All of this happened in what appears to be a very long sunset.

Second example. After Eren de-transformed and was surrounded by soldiers. He woke up, talked to them, then they talked amongst themselves, then they decided to kill him, then he half-transformed, blocked the cannons, talked with Mikasa and Armin, Pixis' arrival, them thinking a plan to retrieve Trost, Pixis' speech, initiating the plan, Eren losing control, people dying, Eren gaining control of his titan form, carrying the rock, and sealing Trost's gate. All in a very, very long sunset...

It's the same thing with Eren's first expedition outside the walls, but you get the point already.

Onto the real deal.

Plot Induced Stupidity.

Which makes up about 50% of the show.

First off, why not use gun?. I know people will say that guns can't kill titans, but they can blind them. And as we see, a lot of titan fights involve blinding them. You're on a horse, a titan chasing you, and you want to slow him down, pick up your gun, and blind him. It's not a big deal, but it can help tremendously. You're in a tag team, you shoot the eyes, your friend cuts the nape.

But that's not that important really, the true most annoying and stupidest thing out there is.......why don't they move at night? Not titans, humans.

Why won't the Survey Corps, go out at night and investigate titans to their hearts' content? I'm just saying, they could avoid getting slaughtered. But no! They have to go at the moments of sunrise, when titans just woke up and are looking for a delicious breakfast.

Then, the plan to retrieve Trost. So you're telling me, that when Pixis was giving his speech, no one raised his hand and said:

"Hey, about this plan...can we wait until the sun is down?"

And Pixis, the smart guy, didn't think of initiating the plan at night? Why? He just went in there, and was all like :

"We're going to retrieve Trost, right now. Heavens forbid we wait one more hour until the sun sets so that we can retrieve Trost without any casualties. We're going and dying, NOW!"

There are more things, but these two things have been on my mind for a while, especially the latter thing, which I'm surprised no one from SnK's huge fanbase ever mentioned.

Maybe I missed something about why they can't go at night, and if I did, tell me about it. So what do you guys think about my bitching?

 

[Nanozom]

Okay I will start explaining as good as I can.

The first one.
The sunsets.

It is a matter of time here.
A sunset lasts for surprisingly long if you sit down and take time on one.
I for example can sit for over one and a half hour in the sunset and take wonderful pictures of it when the colors are just right. So It´s perfectly justified that the sunsets lasts for an hour or so and to be honest, most of the elements of the plot take place in a shorter amount of time than the anime shows them as we see flashbacks, dreamworlds and well, everything that takes place at the exactly the same time as something else plays out. Parallel events.
They gets noticeably darker as you might notice when the Colossal titan shows up which is the beginning of the dawn. the armored titan showed up in the late dawn as it´s almost night when Eren makes his "rage against the titans" speech.
So time still moves, only slowed down by thoughts and our perspective of things.
...
2
The so called SID

Guns only worked at one time because they literally pointed these things in the eyes of the titans at overkill close range.
on a distance, it would not work because these guns only fire one bullet at the time before needing to reload. and in the middle of battle? that is not a possibility as a titan might show up and take a bite of you while you stand there and reload, unable to escape.
So guns are worthless in that regard, as more people would die that way.

Yes, it is true that titans can´t move at night but your suggestions are not making sense either as the scouts can´t see for squat in the dark either so they won´t be able to fight titans that way.
and if they bring a torch then they might wake up the titans and they would still be in a mess.
And besides, would you go in pitch black territory, knowing that you at any moment´s notice can walk right into a titan´s ass or mouth by accident?
You have not seen the nights in SnK, if there is no moon, then it´s darker than a black-out.

The Trost plan.

Do you have any idea how many titans that would manage to get in during that time it would take for the sun to settle?
And they thought against time since the titans would try to press their way inside the inner gates with numbers as the barricade showed at one point.
They acted immediately to decrease the number of titans that would be trapped with them and save a lot of lives in the process. So the nighttime plan would not work since we don´t know if the Rouge titan even can move at night... ever considered that?
Maybe it wouldn´t work at all?
and that´s why they acted while the sun was up.
they needed a shift solution.

And that´s not a case of SID, only acceptance through logic.

 

[Utsune]

I feel people will be coming in to elaborate on this, so I'll keep my post simple :P I'm not too sure if you have read the manga either so I'll keep some things in spoiler tag.

About the C.Titan and A.Titan attack:
Dramatic licensing aside, I think it is viable that all of it happened within a short time.

Spoiler

C.Titan breaks in
C.Titan reverts to human
A.Titan moves towards second gate
A.Titan breaks into second gate
Mission end.

C.Titan breaks gate ---> Eren runs for his home (3 minutes)
Eren-Mikasa's futile effort (2 minutes)
Hannes scene (1 minute)
Hannes taking the kids away (3 minutes)
---> Arriving at dock with the kids (10 minutes)
Getting on the boat (assuming kids go first, 10 minutes)

Note that the town isn't that big, if I estimate from the very first scene in Chapter 1, it's about 1km across (4 minutes at running speed.)

That's 30 minutes. Sunsets last longer than that I believe.


EMA getting cannon'ed scene:
Whole conversation lasts 10 minutes at most (I mean, the episode is only 20 minutes, and only half the episode at most is concerned, with a lot of slow-mo and flashbacks.)
Pixis's getting ready with Eren + speech (15 minutes)
EM getting in position (5 minutes)
Eren unconscious (including Armin spotting the red signal + running over to help, 10 minutes)
Eren carry boulder (5 minutes)

Again, ~30 minutes.


Guns:
Accuracy problem. Given shotguns, wider pattern but decreased effective range, especially with high-speed regen it won't give you too much of a window before they recover.
Remember, range is not simply the distance between you and the titan's feet. It's between you and the titan's eyes. Small mobile target means you have a hard time unloading enough damage on it to be effective.
Titans can come in groups, so teamwork complications (tactics for multiple targets depend on the survival of the gunners.)


Nighttime recon:
Visibility issues (they can't move fast on horses.)
Some Titans can move hours after sunset (Bean can do 3 hours)

Spoiler

http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/38/16

Nighttime boulder plan:
Threat from the Armoured Titan, cannot afford to have Titans pouring into the inner gate and effectively deal with two fronts.

 

[KingOfNight]

Fair enough about the sunsets.

The so called SID

Guns only worked at one time because they literally pointed these things in the eyes of the titans at overkill close range.
on a distance, it would not work because these guns only fire one bullet at the time before needing to reload. and in the middle of battle? that is not a possibility as a titan might show up and take a bite of you while you stand there and reload, unable to escape.
So guns are worthless in that regard, as more people would die that way.

Yes, it is true that titans can´t move at night but your suggestions are not making sense either as the scouts can´t see for squat in the dark either so they won´t be able to fight titans that way.
and if they bring a torch then they might wake up the titans and they would still be in a mess.
And besides, would you go in pitch black territory, knowing that you at any moment´s notice can walk right into a titan´s ass or mouth by accident?
You have not seen the nights in SnK, if there is no moon, then it´s darker than a black-out.

Was it ever shown that guns require that long to load? Especially considering that most titans take their sweet time to walk. If a titan shows up at your face, then of course you can't blind it. That's why I put in two scenarios, the horse back one and the tag team one. So no, they're not THAT useless.


Just a slight spoiler:

Spoiler

We've seen Survey Corps member move and fight perfectly at night time and we've also seen a certain plan to move at night. So I don't see how visibility is an issue here but not in these two cases.

The Trost plan.

Do you have any idea how many titans that would manage to get in during that time it would take for the sun to settle?
And they thought against time since the titans would try to press their way inside the inner gates with numbers as the barricade showed at one point.
They acted immediately to decrease the number of titans that would be trapped with them and save a lot of lives in the process. So the nighttime plan would not work since we don´t know if the Rouge titan even can move at night... ever considered that?
Maybe it wouldn´t work at all?
and that´s why they acted while the sun was up.
they needed a shift solution.

Does more titans getting in to Trost matter? It's far better than sending valuable men to their deaths. The only titan that can breach the inner gate is the Armored Titan(as mentioned by that scared commander), so regardless of how many titans gather near the inner gate, I don't see the problem. Not to mention that it was sunset, so waiting one or two hours can't hurt when they waited a couple of hours for Eren to wake up. One or two deviants that can move at night, are far better than all of those titans. Though deviants were never said to be able to move at night.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

Guns:
Accuracy problem. Given shotguns, wider pattern but decreased effective range, especially with high-speed regen it won't give you too much of a window before they recover.
Remember, range is not simply the distance between you and the titan's feet. It's between you and the titan's eyes. Small mobile target means you have a hard time unloading enough damage on it to be effective.
T

Good point.

Nighttime recon:
Visibility issues (they can't move fast on horses.)
Some Titans can move hours after sunset (Bean can do 3 hours)

Nighttime boulder plan:
Threat from the Armoured Titan, cannot afford to have Titans pouring into the inner gate and effectively deal with two fronts.

Again, like the small spoiler above. Visibility is not an issue.
Some. Most aren't likely to stay that long.

The threat of the Armored Titan is far greater with that many titans walking around. Ordinary titans can't breach the inner gate. They already waited for Eren to wake up (which was likely from noon till near the end of the sunset), a few more hours can't hurt.

 

[lordoffantasy]

the only thing I find illogical is that they do not use ballista. think about it. wqhile a balilsta bolt won't kill a titan, it will still incumber it. sp[ecially a big enough one. best case scenario is if it hits the neck of the titan. the nap of the neck must be destroyed, often by amputating it as seen but other times by destructive force, as with the rogue titan crushing the nap. a balista with an altered head could do this job from the front potentially, bpassing through the neck and destroying the specific area.

 

[Nanozom]

the only thing I find illogical is that they do not use ballista. think about it. wqhile a balilsta bolt won't kill a titan, it will still incumber it. sp[ecially a big enough one. best case scenario is if it hits the neck of the titan. the nap of the neck must be destroyed, often by amputating it as seen but other times by destructive force, as with the rogue titan crushing the nap. a balista with an altered head could do this job from the front potentially, bpassing through the neck and destroying the specific area.

It´s called resources, and a Ballista only have one arrow.
And how would they move it around fast enough? what good does one stabbed titan when a hundred is coming closer as you stand there and speak?
And I doubt they would give the scouts one like that...

 

[Utsune]

The threat of the Armored Titan is far greater with that many titans walking around. Ordinary titans can't breach the inner gate. They already waited for Eren to wake up (which was likely from noon till near the end of the sunset), a few more hours can't hurt.

I think you've misunderstood me there. I mean to say that the A.Titan is posing a very big threat by potentially damaging to the inner gate and allow normal Titans to rush in. I think one of the characters has mentioned it, saying they don't know when the A.Titan will appear etc.

Also, I think morale is a serious issue to consider. I would've also followed-through the mess at that point, bring their family and loved ones into the talk for the threat, and bring Eren to create a final ray-of-hope, limiting their options to either walk away from their family or helping Eren succeed, using and turning their confusion into some pitiful or near-death courage or whatever you might call it, for the sake of crowd control. If you read that bit again you'll realise there're soldiers already on the verge of killing their superiors. Even Eren himself notes that and reminds Armin of the deeper problem within the force.

Again, like the small spoiler above. Visibility is not an issue.
Some. Most aren't likely to stay that long.

Nanaba and the other 3 are fighting under the moonlight. It's not much, but certain enough to fight with. They were lucky to get the moon, you can't always count on a clear sky if you can't predict the weather too well.

And if you've missed my link, here it is again *spoiler*
http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/38/16

 

[KingOfNight]

I think you've misunderstood me there. I mean to say that the A.Titan is posing a very big threat by potentially damaging to the inner gate and allow normal Titans to rush in. I think one of the characters has mentioned it, saying they don't know when the A.Titan will appear etc.

No, I get your point. It's that the Armored Titan would still be a threat if he appeared as Eren was carrying the boulder. So he's a threat in both cases. The scared commander also implied that they are preparing to face the Armored Titan.

Also, I think morale is a serious issue to consider. I would've also followed-through the mess at that point, bring their family and loved ones into the talk for the threat, and bring Eren to create a final ray-of-hope, limiting their options to either walk away from their family or helping Eren succeed, using and turning their confusion into some pitiful or near-death courage or whatever you might call it, for the sake of crowd control. If you read that bit again you'll realise there're soldiers already on the verge of killing their superiors. Even Eren himself notes that and reminds Armin of the deeper problem within the force.

Still really doesn't explain why not do it at night. After convincing the soldiers with his plan, Pixis could have just waited 30 minutes (as you counted).

Nanaba and the other 3 are fighting under the moonlight. It's not much, but certain enough to fight with. They were lucky to get the moon, you can't always count on a clear sky if you can't predict the weather too well.

And if you've missed my link, here it is again *spoiler*
http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/38/16

Oh, I thought you linked the page about Bean so I didn't pay attention to it. Well...it's weird to be THAT dark.

 

[Yumpo]

Trost Plan:
The reason why they couldn't wait any longer 'cause they don't know when the Armored Titan might appear and try to breach the Wall again. At that time, they didn't know that there were other shifters like Eren. The Armored and Colossal Titans were still classified as Abnormals with Intelligence. Not human shifters waiting for the right time to act. So they were thinking things like "What if the Armored Titan appeared now?" They can't possibly know when will the Armored Titan appear again. Yup, he might appear during sunset too if Eren and the others decided to wait for nightfall. That's why they can't afford to risk that and let it happen.

Nighttime Recon:
Too many unknown variables. Castle Utgard pretty much shows that there could actually be Titans walking around at night. Sure, they may have gathered info that Titans grow inactive during night time, but those were mostly from selected experiments. Walking in the actual den of Titans could be way more different with abnormals running around. Plus, visibility is actually a problem, if you're moving with a large army. How can you clearly see the color of smoke signals being fired at night? Miscommunications are more likely to occur, unless they actually find a new way to relay quick messages.


And was there actually a plan to move out at night other than the plan that uses Eren? If so, please tell me, 'cause I might have missed it.
That plan to move out at night with Eren though was because they have him and they hypothesized that he maybe able to use the same abilities as the Female Titan. Plus, the plan just involved a small group(because there's no need for carts to store materials), which makes miscommunications less likely to occur. But this is all because they have Eren. If Eren isn't with them, this plan would be considered risky since they'd really have to bring a large number of people to store the materials required to plug the wall.

 

[Utsune]

No, I get your point. It's that the Armored Titan would still be a threat if he appeared as Eren was carrying the boulder. So he's a threat in both cases. The scared commander also implied that they are preparing to face the Armored Titan.

Still really doesn't explain why not do it at night. After convincing the soldiers with his plan, Pixis could have just waited 30 minutes (as you counted).

I think the way these things work is that, once you have a rebel element who is acting within a generally consented 'reason' (in this case, fighting the impossible) it spread like wild fire. As soon as somebody makes the first kill on their superior, the system will fall apart before the Titans can rip them one. Pixis realises this and bets on persuading the few (as well as psychologically limiting them to two options of either help Eren or be responsible for their family's death, very forcibly persuaded but viable in the midst of confusion) in order to turn back the wave of rebellious tendencies, before things get fully out of control. If only people would listen to orders like machines, I wouldn't doubt Pixis carrying out the plan at night like you say. It's harsh to say but it's a necessary sacrifice while racing against time, before the point of no return.

Oh, I thought you linked the page about Bean so I didn't pay attention to it. Well...it's weird to be THAT dark.

I'm usually a city person but I do have experience with the darkness in the countryside. Without the moon and artificial lights, it gets dangerously dark, you can't even see your own hand. So I can see why they are fretting :P

 

[KingOfNight]

I think the way these things work is that, once you have a rebel element who is acting within a generally consented 'reason' (in this case, fighting the impossible) it spread like wild fire. As soon as somebody makes the first kill on their superior, the system will fall apart before the Titans can rip them one. Pixis realises this and bets on persuading the few (as well as psychologically limiting them to two options of either help Eren or be responsible for their family's death, very forcibly persuaded but viable in the midst of confusion) in order to turn back the wave of rebellious tendencies, before things get fully out of control. If only people would listen to orders like machines, I wouldn't doubt Pixis carrying out the plan at night like you say. It's harsh to say but it's a necessary sacrifice while racing against time, before the point of no return.

Makes sense. But wouldn't telling them that the plan will take place at night make them feel better? Most of them were rebelling because of terror, and if I remember, one of them said he doesn't want to die and leave his family without a father. I know I would feel a lot better if he told me the plan would take place at night.

I'm usually a city person but I do have experience with the darkness in the countryside. Without the moon and artificial lights, it gets dangerously dark, you can't even see your own hand. So I can see why they are fretting :P

I'm convinced. I certainly wouldn't want a creepy smiling titan in my face before I know how he got there.

EDIT: I'm assuming you're a manga reader, so :

Spoiler

Reiner and Bertholdt were totally okay with their plan to make move at night. So I'm not fully convinced. As that clearly shows that waiting until nighttime makes things much more easier.

 

[Utsune]

Makes sense. But wouldn't telling them that the plan will take place at night make them feel better? Most of them were rebelling because of terror, and if I remember, one of them said he doesn't want to die and leave his family without a father. I know I would feel a lot better if he told me the plan would take place at night.

I think humans are funny creatures in that they change their mind with time. If you force them into a decision that expects immediate action, they're much more likely to follow through. On the other hand, the strength of conspiracies grows with time. Rational people like you and me of course desire your suggestion. In fact, I think if they're taking action at night, they wouldn't even need any soldiers for that, just Eren and a few torch-holding people. Forcing them into action makes a direct connection between the situation and their involvement. Pixis sure knows his PR skills lol.

EDIT: I'm assuming you're a manga reader, so :

Spoiler

Reiner and Bertholdt were totally okay with their plan to make move at night. So I'm not fully convinced. As that clearly shows that waiting until nighttime makes things much more easier.

*He* would be running on his own, I think there's the difference between running on your own and travelling in a group on horseback. The size difference also means that terrain issues are minimised for *him*. I did horse-riding for a while and I can't imagine going at a desirable pace in pitch black. I'd like to point out it is possible though, but always preferably on flat-ground. In any case, I think we'll have to remind ourselves the purpose of the scouting legion in the first place. In the past, they do these expeditions in order to find resources/minerals to bring back home. I would half-expect them to simply scout over large distances for possible locations before deciding whether to move in on those positions or not. This cannot be done in the dark because obviously, they won't be able to scout over any distance at all lol.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

Btw I'm not putting forward these arguments as a definite counter. I'm quite glad this is brought up so I actually get to evaluate these issues a bit more seriously.

 

[epictoads]

The night issue has been brought up before. There's no reason to go out at night. They can't see anything without a good moon and communicating in a large group would be impossible without smoke signals. The most they could do is maybe take out a few Titans but they would struggle to map areas or study Titans. Plus in pitch black you can't go at high speeds on horseback. The one plan to go at night involved only a few people that can stay together, and they had no need to carry supplies to fix the wall or anything.
Manga spoiler

Spoiler

They managed to fight Titans at night because they had convenient buildings to swing between and moonlight. On flat terrain they wouldn't stand a chance.

During Trost they needed the wall patch as soon as they could as the armored titans could appear at any moment. And Eren probably can;t transform at night.


Also, guns would be almost ineffective. they worked in the supply building because they had 5 or so pointed at each Titan at close range and didn't miss. On a horse you don't have the stability to hit a Titan high unless you're still and it's really close to you, by which time you would be eaten. Plus you would have to land a shot in each eye minimum (probably several on a big Titan), how on earth can you do that whilst moving and having a Titan run at you. The formation primarily went around Titans, only deviants broke the formation (and they aren't exactly sitting targets). Given the size of a Titan, mere bullets would do nothing unless you hit the eyes (and even then we've seen they can regenerate eye/bullet wounds in seconds).

 

[KingOfNight]

I think humans are funny creatures in that they change their mind with time. If you force them into a decision that expects immediate action, they're much more likely to follow through. On the other hand, the strength of conspiracies grows with time. Rational people like you and me of course desire your suggestion. In fact, I think if they're taking action at night, they wouldn't even need any soldiers for that, just Eren and a few torch-holding people. Forcing them into action makes a direct connection between the situation and their involvement. Pixis sure knows his PR skills lol.

Exactly! No one would need to die...aside from the ones Eren will be killing.

*He* would be running on his own, I think there's the difference between running on your own and travelling in a group on horseback. The size difference also means that terrain issues are minimised for *him*. I did horse-riding for a while and I can't imagine going at a desirable pace in pitch black. I'd like to point out it is possible though, but always preferably on flat-ground. In any case, I think we'll have to remind ourselves the purpose of the scouting legion in the first place. In the past, they do these expeditions in order to find resources/minerals to bring back home. I would half-expect them to simply scout over large distances for possible locations before deciding whether to move in on those positions or not. This cannot be done in the dark because obviously, they won't be able to scout over any distance at all lol.

Yeah, naturally, *His* characteristics would make this easier. From what we saw in Eren's first expedition...the ground was as flat as it could get. I was actually thinking of starting a topic about the Scouting Legion and their "purpose." But while we're at it, was it mentioned what kind of resources\minerals they expect to find? I blitzed through this manga, so I missed a lot of small details.

 

[Utsune]

Exactly! No one would need to die...aside from the ones Eren will be killing.

Well yeah, assuming they will behave like machines and not human :P Which is far from the truth. As Erwin puts it, there are times you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.

Yeah, naturally, *His* characteristics would make this easier. From what we saw in Eren's first expedition...the ground was as flat as it could get. I was actually thinking of starting a topic about the Scouting Legion and their "purpose." But while we're at it, was it mentioned what kind of resources\minerals they expect to find? I blitzed through this manga, so I missed a lot of small details.

There is a specific mention about finding the materials to seal off the broken gate at Shiganshina or something. Apparently the standard procedure will take 20 years (scout + plan + transport the raw materials.) The page is here (for a few pages after this):
http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/37/11
(I would be careful with the translation though, because we've had a few problems with translation in many of the older chapters.)

And then Armin did suggest sending a small team with Eren at nighttime to use his titan ability to seal off the gate instead.

I personally wouldn't bother with the accuracy too much, I have faith in Isayama's setup, because I'm well aware he has at least two very knowledgeable friends to help him with the validity of certain settings pertaining realism.

Btw, Eren's first expedition is within Wall Maria, and not *outside.* I think there will definitely be a difference.

 

[KingOfNight]

Well yeah, assuming they will behave like machines and not human :P Which is far from the truth. As Erwin puts it, there are times you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.

I still think it's more human like to go at night.

There is a specific mention about finding the materials to seal off the broken gate at Shiganshina or something. Apparently the standard procedure will take 20 years (scout + plan + transport the raw materials.) The page is here (for a few pages after this):
http://www.mangapanda.com/shingeki-no-kyojin/37/11
(I would be careful with the translation though, because we've had a few problems with translation in many of the older chapters.)

And then Armin did suggest sending a small team with Eren at nighttime to use his titan ability to seal off the gate instead.

I personally wouldn't bother with the accuracy too much, I have faith in Isayama's setup, because I'm well aware he has at least two very knowledgeable friends to help him with the validity of certain settings pertaining realism.

Btw, Eren's first expedition is within Wall Maria, and not *outside.* I think there will definitely be a difference.

So the plan of moving at night is actually possible. And worse, Hanji is absolutely shocked at the thought of moving at night. Really? It's that unthinkable? Armin's suggestion just confirmed for me that it would've been far smarter to retrieve Trost at night.

 

[epictoads]

Armin's suggestion just confirmed for me that it would've been far smarter to retrieve Trost at night.

How would they retake Trost at night? So far Eren has only shown he can transform during daytime.

 

[KingOfNight]

How would they retake Trost at night? So far Eren has only shown he can transform during daytime.

What makes you think he can't do it at night? Do you read the Manga?