Match Doubles instead of knockout singles

[-Ken-]

There's nothing in the series that confirm Yagyuu can syncho with himself. Mutsu ca syncho with Mutsu because they can syncho willingly. It's the same thing he do with Oishi as Kikumaru.

That leave only Atobe. He enter syncho when he's in a pinch with him, not form the beginning. It is said the very first time that syncho is NOT a common occurrence.


And strong assumption is just better than a weak one.

 

[floman]

So is there any sort of consensus?

1. Kintarou/Chitose advance I think that's done
2. Does anyone put Akutsu and Kawmura over Atobe and Hiyoshi?
3. Does everyone agree that Tezuka/ Kaido > Sanada/Yukimura?
4. Is Shiraishi good enough to beat Illusion Tezuka! and is kenya good enough to take on Yagyuu? Also is there a better possibility that Yagyuu and Niou will synchro?

 

[Kaoz]

I thought I had already responded to this, but apparently not.

1. Kintarou/Chitose advance I think that's done

Agreeing on this one.

2. Does anyone put Akutsu and Kawmura over Atobe and Hiyoshi?

This is kinda tough, but I'm tempted to say yes. If you consider Akutsu's flexibility, I think Atobe would have to use his Insight to counter it to an extent, which means he wouldn't be able to frequently use KnS and AK. That takes care of of Atobe/Hiyoshi's greatest offensive threats. On the other hand I don't think they would be able to hit back Hadokyuus very easily, and I feel like Akutsu/Kawamura would have the better chemistry.

3. Does everyone agree that Tezuka/ Kaido > Sanada/Yukimura?

Agree.

4. Is Shiraishi good enough to beat Illusion Tezuka! and is kenya good enough to take on Yagyuu? Also is there a better possibility that Yagyuu and Niou will synchro?

I think Shiraishi could beat the Tezuka illusion. Kenya... I don't see him doing much in terms of offense, but he'd probably be able to seal the laser combo with Shiraishi's cooperation. I think this one really comes down to Synchro, and I also believe that Niou/Yagyuu not using it is more likely. They'll have better teamwork in my eyes though, and both are hard to predict.
I'll vote for Shiraishi/Kenya since I feel that from the things we can measure, they have an advantage, however Niou/Yagyuu have a lot of potential possibilities to take the win instead.

 

[Philia]

So is there any sort of consensus?

1. Kintarou/Chitose advance I think that's done

Agree.

2. Does anyone put Akutsu and Kawmura over Atobe and Hiyoshi?

I think Atobe/Hiyoshi will win.

3. Does everyone agree that Tezuka/ Kaido > Sanada/Yukimura?

Nope. I gave my reasons above.

4. Is Shiraishi good enough to beat Illusion Tezuka! and is kenya good enough to take on Yagyuu? Also is there a better possibility that Yagyuu and Niou will synchro?

I think Shiraishi could beat national Niou-Tezuka. But when Niou can use ZSS I think It favors Niou a bit. But Shiraishi might be able to overcome slight disadvantage. I would go for a Shiraishi/Kenya win.

 

[floman]

So is there any sort of consensus?


Agree.

I think Atobe/Hiyoshi will win.

Nope. I gave my reasons above.

I think Shiraishi could beat national Niou-Tezuka. But when Niou can use ZSS I think It favors Niou a bit. But Shiraishi might be able to overcome slight disadvantage. I would go for a Shiraishi/Kenya win.

To respond to your reasons about PoP not being as strong in doubles, I agree but in the case of Tezuka he has the Tezuka Zone. The only way Sanada can overcome Tezuka Zone is through spamming Ka which Tezuka can return with PoP strength and Rin which wouldn't be as effective in doubles. As for Yukimura, there is nothing to suggest he can break the Zone. He said in the nationals that Tezuka "made a perfect zone" when Ryoma used Hyaruken too early.

Also I feel like Shiraishi might get overwhelmed by consistent phantoms but Niou-Tezuka can't do that. Kenya is ridiculously fast and I think that they will also have very good chemistry and team work.

Just as a question why was it that Yagyuu/Niou > Golden Pair?

Lastly why do you think Atobe/Hiyoshi would take it?

 

[Ninomiya]

There's nothing in the series that confirm Yagyuu can syncho with himself. Mutsu ca syncho with Mutsu because they can syncho willingly. It's the same thing he do with Oishi as Kikumaru.

I said in a pinch.

That leave only Atobe. He enter syncho when he's in a pinch with him, not form the beginning. It is said the very first time that syncho is NOT a common occurrence.

I said that Yagyuu can do it with Niou in a pinch too. If Atobe can, please just tell me why the hell Yagyuu can't?

And strong assumption is just better than a weak one.

My point was your assumption wasn't strong.

But Shiraishi might be able to overcome slight disadvantage. I would go for a Shiraishi/Kenya win.

If Ochi/Mouri couldn't defeat ZSS in Doubles, why on earth could Shiraishi?
Mouri and Ochi are slightly better than Shiraishi.

Kenya and Yagyuu ican be an even match-up sure.
Shiraishi and Niou isn't so even in a 1 set match. Niou has a really big advantage here.
Niou/Yagyuu as a pair? Far more dangerous than Shiraishi/Kenya

Remember that ZSS is even harder to return perfectly in Doubles, remember TZ a player playing at the net in front of the TZ user is extremely dangerous.
Remember Hyakku Ren, Laser combo I could go on and repeat what I have said before in this thread.
But Entaku Shot isn't going to be enough against the current Niou/Yagyuu.

 

[floman]

I said in a pinch.


I said that Yagyuu can do it with Niou in a pinch too. If Atobe can, please just tell me why the hell Yagyuu can't?


My point was your assumption wasn't strong.


If Ochi/Mouri couldn't defeat ZSS in Doubles, why on earth could Shiraishi?
Mouri and Ochi are slightly better than Shiraishi.

Kenya and Yagyuu ican be an even match-up sure.
Shiraishi and Niou isn't so even in a 1 set match. Niou has a really big advantage here.
Niou/Yagyuu as a pair? Far more dangerous than Shiraishi/Kenya

Remember that ZSS is even harder to return perfectly in Doubles, remember TZ a player playing at the net in front of the TZ user is extremely dangerous.
Remember Hyakku Ren, Laser combo I could go on and repeat what I have said before in this thread.
But Entaku Shot isn't going to be enough against the current Niou/Yagyuu.

I think the point that is being made is that a pinch doesn't guarantee synchro even if it is the same person.

I'm guessing Atobe was different because of his incredible mental strength. Niou and Atobe were able to synchro because they both had an incredible will to win, kinda like what the golden pair did in their second synchro against Rikkai. This is pretty much speculation though I'm not sure.

Niou Tezuka didn't use Hyakku Ren against the G10 once. Also after hitting the ZSS so much he got injured. There's also the point that Kenya can chase down the lasers. It's a little bit different from Atobe because if Niou has fallen to the ground at the net Yagyuu won't be able to put the ball away like Atobe did.

As we know from the match against Shishido/ Chotarou pair synchro doesn't let you return shots that you cannot normally return (scud serve). Similarly it does not let you hit powerful shots that you normally couldn't. Yagyuu has no way of really winning the point, so even if they do synchro in a pinch (Niou lying at the net) I dont think they would win.

 

[Hardy]

Mental and willingness has nothing to do with synchro (in fact, Oishi and Kikumaru don't have more than 3 in mental). I'd argue that Atobe was able to synchro with himself because he's an ego (he would only synchro with himself), and nothing else. If that's not the case, then there's nothing that says that Yagyuu shouldn't be able to synchro with his best friend (the synchro master itself, lol).

Also, are you comparing Entaku shot with Neo Scud serve? For real ?

 

[Ninomiya]

Niou Tezuka didn't use Hyakku Ren against the G10 once. Also after hitting the ZSS so much he got injured. There's also the point that Kenya can chase down the lasers.

Tezuka!Niou probably didn't use Hyakku Ren against the G10 because it would have been pointless and a waste of energy.
Mouri has a 6 in Tech so there's no doubt he would have been able to hit just softer shots so that Hyakku Ren becomes a waste of time.
Just like Chitose did.
My point is that ZSS CANNOT be returned by Kenya. Even slightly.
Whereas Mouri could hit back ZSS in Singles. So first of all, as long as Kenya is unable to hit it back, Niou cannot drop his serve. Let alone Shiraishi being unable hit it back.

There's also the ASSUMPTION that Kenya can chase down the lasers. It is far from concrete. I can't let you get away with saying that, when its not even close to a fact.

Niou wasn't even close to catching it and that's if it was going to land in either direction in all honesty.
The point is, Shiraishi/Kenya don't hold a candle to Ochi/Mouri pair so comparing them in any regard is void.

It's a little bit different from Atobe because if Niou has fallen to the ground at the net Yagyuu won't be able to put the ball away like Atobe did.

Shiraishi/Kenya ARE NOT Ochi/Mouri level lol. Niou isn't going to be passing out or collapsing on the floor especially when Shiraishi/Kenya don't even have a sure-kill service game in their arsenal like Ochi does.
If Niou had fallen to the ground it wouldn't matter who the partner was.
Atobe got completely wrecked like a bitch when he was one-on-two against Ochi/Mouri.
Atobe struggled by himself in vain, Atobe/Niou's win all boils down Niou becoming Atobe and as if by magic, in a pinch

Your point doesn't make sense since we are discussing a healthy Niou and Yagyuu in a pinch. A pinch is when you are about to lose.

If Niou/Yagyuu are on the verge of losing which I highly doubt, Niou can become Yagyuu and just like he did with Atobe, he should Synchro. Since things like stats are of zero relevance to accessing Synchro especially when Kikumaru/Oishi had real weak stats when they first got it.

As we know from the match against Shishido/ Chotarou pair synchro doesn't let you return shots that you cannot normally return (scud serve). Similarly it does not let you hit powerful shots that you normally couldn't. Yagyuu has no way of really winning the point, so even if they do synchro in a pinch (Niou lying at the net) I dont think they would win.

What? Are you trying to say to me that Yagyuu's Laser combo will be useless?
Since I assume you must believe that Kaidoh's combo will be useless too then.
Considering Yagyuu was able to spam his ordinary laser against Kikumaru/Oishi and the best thing that happened was that Kikumaru hit it against the net, its wrong overrate Kenya as being able to effortlessly shutdown Laser combo.

Someone enlighten me as to how Kenya can take points off of Niou/Yagyuu who are one of the No.1 MS pairs in the nation?
Yagyuu's Laser shots are seriously awesome to the extent that BM!Kirihara was sweating bricks at the concept of somebody other than Yagyuu having the Laser.

Its BS that due to his lack of screentime he's being written off. I mean, Yagyuu has a 5 in Tech, even outside of the laser combo he is a strong MS player.

Btw, what special shot does Shiraishi or Kenya have that is able to defeat Yagyuu and Niou at the same time? In fact, you've said even if they are Synchro'd.

 

[-Ken-]

You talk as if syncho is guarantee in a pinch. It isn't.

 

[Ninomiya]

You talk as if syncho is guarantee in a pinch. It isn't.

Its guaranteed if Niou becomes the EXACT person who he is playing against.

In my opinion, Niou became the EXACT same Mutsu that he Synchro'd with.
And you can't prove otherwise.
Therefore I HAVE some kind of evidence that Niou has done it twice.
Once with Atobe and one with Mutsu.

Honestly, I can't see why it isn't common sense to people that Niou can Synchro with almost anybody as long as he is in a serious pinch.

 

[Kaoz]

Its guaranteed if Niou becomes the EXACT person who he is playing against.

We know way too little about it to say it's guaranteed in my opinion.

In my opinion, Niou became the EXACT same Mutsu that he Synchro'd with.
And you can't prove otherwise.

Didn't he synchro with both of them at the same time? In which case, wouldn't that disprove your theory (since Niou naturally can't become two people at once)? There's also the issue that it wasn't an actual pinch synchro with the twins since they both already knew how to do it.

 

[Philia]

To respond to your reasons about PoP not being as strong in doubles, I agree but in the case of Tezuka he has the Tezuka Zone. The only way Sanada can overcome Tezuka Zone is through spamming Ka which Tezuka can return with PoP strength and Rin which wouldn't be as effective in doubles. As for Yukimura, there is nothing to suggest he can break the Zone. He said in the nationals that Tezuka "made a perfect zone" when Ryoma used Hyaruken too early.

Ok, We all know, Sanada>Tezuka(Without PoP). And Now Sanada has BA, which can break Tezuka Zone & Tezuka Phantom. Since BA changes direction in the last moment, Tezuka Zone & Phantom won't be effective against it. If PoP shots can be returned Tezuka has nothing to score against them other than ZSS. (Not sure Yukimura can return it. But he has return almost every shots we've seen in POT.) Tezuka will damage his arm during the match. Kaidoh is a waste here. Sanada can hit Rai towards Kaidoh. Besides I'm not sure how Tezuka will return BA.
For me, things look a bit in Sanada/Yukimura pair's favor.

Also I feel like Shiraishi might get overwhelmed by consistent phantoms but Niou-Tezuka can't do that. Kenya is ridiculously fast and I think that they will also have very good chemistry and team work.
Just as a question why was it that Yagyuu/Niou > Golden Pair?

If Niou/Yagyuu can use synchro they can defeat Golden Pair because Both Niou & Yagyuu are better players than Eiji & Oishi. If its a match between Synchro pairs, the pair has more ability should take it.

Lastly why do you think Atobe/Hiyoshi would take it?

Atobe can use WoI, AK, Tanhausher serve. Akutsu can't counter them. Forget about Taka-san.

---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 AM ----------

If Ochi/Mouri couldn't defeat ZSS in Doubles, why on earth could Shiraishi?
Mouri and Ochi are slightly better than Shiraishi.

Kenya and Yagyuu ican be an even match-up sure.
Shiraishi and Niou isn't so even in a 1 set match. Niou has a really big advantage here.
Niou/Yagyuu as a pair? Far more dangerous than Shiraishi/Kenya

Remember that ZSS is even harder to return perfectly in Doubles, remember TZ a player playing at the net in front of the TZ user is extremely dangerous.
Remember Hyakku Ren, Laser combo I could go on and repeat what I have said before in this thread.
But Entaku Shot isn't going to be enough against the current Niou/Yagyuu.

I agree about most of the things. But you gotta tell me how Niou-Tezuka who had everything other than ZSS lost to Fuji????? From what I saw, Niou is as good as Atobe. I don't think even Atobe would lose to him. How the hell Atobe will counter Tezuka Zone, Tezuka Phantom, Hyakurean????
Niou with Illusion is close for unbeatabe by any Msers. But still he lost to Fuji, who is not even a good player anymore.

 

[-Ken-]

Its guaranteed if Niou becomes the EXACT person who he is playing against.

It's really not.

In my opinion, Niou became the EXACT same Mutsu that he Synchro'd with.
And you can't prove otherwise.
Therefore I HAVE some kind of evidence that Niou has done it twice.
Once with Atobe and one with Mutsu.

Honestly, I can't see why it isn't common sense to people that Niou can Synchro with almost anybody as long as he is in a serious pinch.

BOTH Mutsu can syncho willingly. It doesn't prove anything if he can syncho with Mutsu as a Mutsu. He still have to follow basic requirement, like becoming Kikumaru to syncho with Oishi.

 

[Ninomiya]

BOTH Mutsu can syncho willingly. It doesn't prove anything if he can syncho with Mutsu as a Mutsu. He still have to follow basic requirement, like becoming Kikumaru to syncho with Oishi.

No. I'm saying its equally likely Niou became Mutsu Yuuho and Synchro'd with Mutsu Yuuho. Therefore it makes the situation identical to Niou becoming Atobe Keigo and Synchro-ing with Atobe Keigo.

It's really not.

Its extremely likely and less likely that Niou isn't able to. He's done it more than once imo.

Either way, this doesn't matter to the question since its Shiraishi/Kenya VS Niou/Yagyuu.
If Mouri/Ochi can't touch ZSS, then there isn't a chance in hell Shiraishi/Kenya can.
Kenya and Shiraishi BOTH have worse Technique than Niou and Yagyuu.

With ZSS + TPhantom + Laser combo + TZ with player at the net sealing off points early + Hyakku Ren, Shiraishi/Kenya don't have a single guaranteed serve either so everything is just against Shiraishi/Kenya.

The assumption Shiraishi can handle ZSS is crazy considering Ochi shat brix at it and Ochi simply has better stats.

I agree about most of the things. But you gotta tell me how Niou-Tezuka who had everything other than ZSS lost to Fuji?????

That was the point my friend. Without ZSS, Niou couldn't win. Its implied that's what was holding Niou back.
Fuji activated Closed Eyes + Cord Ball which makes Saiki impossible, and Hyakku Ren more or less nullified as Fuji hits more careful shots so Doubled return has less effect.
Also, Niou can't combing Hyakku Ren with TZ or TPhantom like the real Tezuka could.

At this stage, Niou can legitly defeat Fuji though. I still think Fuji is a good player, he just isn't at the Tezuka/Atobe level where he finished the series in Part I anymore. I'd say he's with Tachibana/Shiraishi/Niou/Chitose right now.

Didn't he synchro with both of them at the same time? In which case, wouldn't that disprove your theory (since Niou naturally can't become two people at once)? There's also the issue that it wasn't an actual pinch synchro with the twins since they both already knew how to do it.

He only Synchro'd with both of them because they were already in Synchro is my theory.
I believe Niou became Mutsu Yuuho and Synchro'd with Mutsy Yuuho. But because Yuuho was already Synchro'd with Yuuma, Niou simply joined in with the both of them.

Niou was the one who was in a pinch.

 

[-Ken-]

Can you tell that he syncho Mutsu Yuuho not with Mutsu Yuuma? What make you so sure? Sorry, but I don't get it. He's doing it pretty close Kikumura/Oishi pairing. In my opinion, he syncho as Mutsu with the other Mutsu twin, not the same one.

Either way, the Mutsu can syncho willingly.

Eh, what you see here is you dissing off base stats again. I'm really just done. We only see a ton of time how strong base stats can push you up the ladder.

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

Ok, We all know, Sanada>Tezuka(Without PoP). And Now Sanada has BA, which can break Tezuka Zone & Tezuka Phantom. Since BA changes direction in the last moment, Tezuka Zone & Phantom won't be effective against it. If PoP shots can be returned Tezuka has nothing to score against them other than ZSS. (Not sure Yukimura can return it. But he has return almost every shots we've seen in POT.) Tezuka will damage his arm during the match. Kaidoh is a waste here. Sanada can hit Rai towards Kaidoh. Besides I'm not sure how Tezuka will return BA.
For me, things look a bit in Sanada/Yukimura pair's favor.

Well, the difference is all clear than that. I think there's now a tier difference between PoP Tezuka and Sanada, even with Black Aura. PoP Kintarou keep his service game against PoP ONI. Sanada got whoop 12 games in a role, winning only 1 fluke point. Unless PoP Kintarou are far stronger than Tezuka, I think that shows that Tezuka and Kintarou is now in a different tier completely.

Yes, Yukimura and Sanada was strong. Before Konomi shows Yukimura to be about even in rally with handicap Fuwa. If Fuwa take off his blindfold from the beginning, who knows what will happen. And before he shows Sanada not in the upper league by losing 0-6 two games in a role.

 

[floman]

No. I'm saying its equally likely Niou became Mutsu Yuuho and Synchro'd with Mutsu Yuuho. Therefore it makes the situation identical to Niou becoming Atobe Keigo and Synchro-ing with Atobe Keigo.


Its extremely likely and less likely that Niou isn't able to. He's done it more than once imo.

Either way, this doesn't matter to the question since its Shiraishi/Kenya VS Niou/Yagyuu.
If Mouri/Ochi can't touch ZSS, then there isn't a chance in hell Shiraishi/Kenya can.
Kenya and Shiraishi BOTH have worse Technique than Niou and Yagyuu.

With ZSS + TPhantom + Laser combo + TZ with player at the net sealing off points early + Hyakku Ren, Shiraishi/Kenya don't have a single guaranteed serve either so everything is just against Shiraishi/Kenya.

The assumption Shiraishi can handle ZSS is crazy considering Ochi shat brix at it and Ochi simply has better stats.


That was the point my friend. Without ZSS, Niou couldn't win. Its implied that's what was holding Niou back.
Fuji activated Closed Eyes + Cord Ball which makes Saiki impossible, and Hyakku Ren more or less nullified as Fuji hits more careful shots so Doubled return has less effect.
Also, Niou can't combing Hyakku Ren with TZ or TPhantom like the real Tezuka could.

At this stage, Niou can legitly defeat Fuji though. I still think Fuji is a good player, he just isn't at the Tezuka/Atobe level where he finished the series in Part I anymore. I'd say he's with Tachibana/Shiraishi/Niou/Chitose right now.


He only Synchro'd with both of them because they were already in Synchro is my theory.
I believe Niou became Mutsu Yuuho and Synchro'd with Mutsy Yuuho. But because Yuuho was already Synchro'd with Yuuma, Niou simply joined in with the both of them.

Niou was the one who was in a pinch.

The Tezuka Zone was only used in one point against the G10.

ZSS reached it's limit after two service games. Those two service games that Niou hits are automatically won agreed.

Now that those two abilities are gone you are left with Tezuka Phantom + Laser Combo

I would argue that kenya is more than fast enough to return the laser combo.

Niou spamed Tezuka phantom for maximum 15 points before his arm gave in.

Nou again only used Hyaruken once in his match against Fuji not even against the G10.

I think this match is entirely dependent on synchro, Niou Tezuka can get an early lead, but he will most likely injure himself if he does.

ZSS is definitely not returnable in this match but it doesn't matter because it only will happen once every four games and can only be used about 7-8 times.

I would argue that even if Niou was injured and at the net and somehow ended up synchroing with Yagyuu because they were in a pinch it would still not make a difference. Yagyuu is not Atobe even if Niou is determining the opponents weaknesses from the net Yagyuu cannot hit into their blind spots and he only has laser and curving laser which will be shut down.

 

[Ravelt]

Well, the difference is all clear than that. I think there's now a tier difference between PoP Tezuka and Sanada, even with Black Aura. PoP Kintarou keep his service game against PoP ONI. Sanada got whoop 12 games in a role, winning only 1 fluke point. Unless PoP Kintarou are far stronger than Tezuka, I think that shows that Tezuka and Kintarou is now in a different tier completely.

Yes, Yukimura and Sanada was strong. Before Konomi shows Yukimura to be about even in rally with handicap Fuwa. If Fuwa take off his blindfold from the beginning, who knows what will happen. And before he shows Sanada not in the upper league by losing 0-6 two games in a role.

Even if there's a tier difference between POP Tezuka and Sanada, you need to consider that Kaido is far below in tier compared to Sanada and Yukimura.

And I'll give Yukimura the benefit of the doubt here, his old yips was reflected by Fuwa's mirror yet his new yips was able to penetrate through it, so his new yips might be able to affect POP and if it is mental based then Yukimura might affect Tezuka considering Fuwa who also have the same level of mental with Yukimura was still affected, the only problem is if he can meet the requirement though we don't know if it has the same requirement as the old yips.

I just don't see POP Tezuka beating these two in a 3 set match. Wait is this a 3 set match or the same with the knockout singles? if it is the latter then POP Tezuka might pull it through.

 

[Ninomiya]

Can you tell that he syncho Mutsu Yuuho not with Mutsu Yuuma? What make you so sure? Sorry, but I don't get it. He's doing it pretty close Kikumura/Oishi pairing. In my opinion, he syncho as Mutsu with the other Mutsu twin, not the same one.

We're at a stage where we are equal. Its really 50/50 on who Niou performed Synchro with. If he Synchro'd with Mutsu Yuuho as well as becoming him at the same time, then I win. Same if he did the same thing with Yuuma. It would mean Mutsu's synchro wasn't what triggered Niou to be join in their Synchro.
If its the other way round, its your win because the Mutsu's synchro is the sole reason it worked
...Unfortunately we have no way to know.

Eh, what you see here is you dissing off base stats again. I'm really just done. We only see a ton of time how strong base stats can push you up the ladder.

I actually mentioned stats for validity to my point earlier in the post. Could you direct me to where I "dissed it off"?

 

[-Ken-]

Well, the Mutsu pair isn't in a pinch back then. So the pinch condition is not meet. So unless Niou can syncho anytime with anyone off pinch, which he can't, otherwise he would have done it since the beginning with Atobe, I think it's correct to say he didn't syncho with the same Mutsu.