Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[REN KOUEN]

This is absolutely correct. At any moment Madara could have simply snapped his fingers and ended he and Hashirama's fight, yet he CHOSE not to. If he had defeated Hashirama he would have revealed himself as a threat to Obito and then Obito would have shat on him. Prolonging he and Hashriama's fight worked toward his needs, not against them.



*nods* Just like I said against badluckartist, this would be like watching a fight between Professor X and Wolverine. Even if Logan's stitting there kicking his ass we know for a fact the only reason it's happening is because Xavier won't simply "turn him off" with a simple thought. Meaning that Wolverine's victory isn't a victory.

The exact same thing happens here. One ninja with the power to end a fight, chooses not to. Now, if you guys want to say "Madara lost the fight because he forfeit the fight intentionally so that his plans would come to fruition", that'd be fine.

Since that's exactly what happened.

part of me believes he was waiting until he was ALIVE so he could absorb the sage energy

and part of me also believes that he could not absorb the sage energy in his edo tensei state, also i believe hashirama would not have fallen victim to the black rods as easily if he were not ET

ET makes a user more haxxed because theyr chaakra keeps replenishing and they cannot die

however ET also inhibits you from fighting at your 100% capacity

so its a double edged sword

 

[Rikudou King]

The fact that he couldn't move would speaks for itself. And the fact that at the earliest opportunity he decided to bring down Hashirama speaks for itself. I've zero clue where the mention of the wooden dragon comes from, and at no point did I suggest Hashirama defeated Madara defeated easily. Not once. I simply said that Madara was defeated.

Except there's nothing suggest he couldn't have moved if he had wanted to. That's not even how those techniques work. Neither prevent movement or action within them. What it speaks for is that he's finally getting on with his master plan. The Wooden Dragon was what Madara was caught in, thus the point. Not only do we know it can be fought against and broken out of, by something naturally weak against it, but if that was all that was required to stop Madara, then why would Hashirama have ever had trouble against Madara?

Probably still would've lost. Allowing Hashirma to kill himself would've been very unlikely to save Madara's life; he would still be exhausted, weakened, and surrounded by a bunch of shinobi who would've finished the job. And who knows what state Madara was in at the time of Hashirama's death; he could've attacked Konoha, and he probably would've died in the process. He had options, but the ones that preserved his life or offered any benefit to him were few, or one. There was a benefit to him with those decisions, and a reduction in risk. The feint you're proposing offered no benefits, while simultaneously increasing the risk to him, which would be completely illogical. I wasn't suggesting Zetsu, the ace, presumed a lot. I was referring to the way in which he decided to play the 'card'. And Hashirama restrained him, he was in the process of being sealed. So that's just wrong.

They were already even, meaning the boost from the sharingan would have put him over the edge; he wasn't all that weaken or exhausted and as we have been repeatedly told, Hashirama was the only one who could ever defeat him; he was in a better state then later in life, and again, Hashirama was the only thing considered a threat to him. His options all would have preserved his life and given him what he wanted. No benefits? Um, he got exactly what he wanted without having to do anything or risk being killed by Obito. How is that not a benefit. And again, what risk? Hashirama could do nothing but hold him at best. He decreased his risk, not increased it. What was he presuming, given that he had the ability to speak with Black Zetsu mentally and the implication that he was the one in control. He enacted events beforehand, and was resisting being sealed.

And what you fail to grasp is she still only managed to mostly contain him, someone who was tailor-made for the task. And if a simple cough can make such an issue of things, surely Madara needs to be focused on this task, as I suggested. She was exceptional and that was the best she could do. I was speaking generally about Obito. Him bringing in the bijuus isn't much of an issue because they were already under his control. I was simply showing that he struggled to keep them in control even with the tools he had available.

I'm not failing to grasp anything. We're talking about a woman who was dying and nearly out of chakra. Considering the conditions, her being able to do anything is impressive. You act as if she was at 100% with nothing inhibiting her. And I wouldn't call coughing up blood a simple cough... She was also dying and out of chakra, which you seem to keep ignoring. And since said control wasn't the chakra chains, the method that Madara is using, then it doesn't matter.

No it doesn't. Sasuke can place Enton wherever he so chooses, small Susanoo or even a few ribs, as he showed against A when he first whipped out a Susanoo. It has nothing to do with an advancement of Susanoo. And I'm going to take the blaring silence on Madara as him not showing any new 'abilities; with his Susanoo,

But Sasuke's not placing Enton anywhere. They automatically appear upon activation, since the first time he attempted it against Kakashi when he had overused his MS. And I already mentioned what Madara's granted, new techniques. Madara is the only person shown using his Susanoo to preform a technique, the meteors.

Well, considering the discussion began with Madara v the entire alliance, it should be pretty easy to figure out. It only dwelled into this when you pointed to this battle as evidence that Madara should be able to handle it. Except you haven't shown him taking on a good portion of the alliance, I've seen a couple hundred, pretty short of the mark.

And I brought up Madara taking on Gaara's division, which you disagreed with and been discussing ever since. I showed him taking on Gaara's forces, which according to the series was basically a fifth of the entire army. Just because you "count less" doesn't change that. Now unless you can show that there was a huge lost in numbers before Madara fought them, there is no reason to believe that there was only a "few hundred".

Except Obito would be dead, and he'd be under Hashirama's seals. So, no it wouldn't. It was being resisted? Seriously? Because there's a panel where the tiger latches onto Madara, followed by a panel with Sai saying things are going well, and then Rinne Tensei. So, no.

Obito being dead doesn't matter to him being used by Madara. And Hashirama's techniques didn't prevent Madara from enacting Rinne Tensei. And as I mentioned, Sai's technique was normally instantaneously. Yet it was taking much longer with Madara": it was being resisted.

 

[ninjabot]

And yet we've seen that it would take longer than it would take Sasuke or anyone else there to kill Obito in the state he was. A moment would be enough.

I was actually referring to when Black Zetsu says Obito wouldn't die easily because he still had the Mazo equipped to him, giving him incredible longevity. Madara has the same knowledge that Black Zetsu does, so he would know.

The difference is Itachi didn't want to bring down Sasuke, ever. As opposed to Madara, who took the earliest opportunity to bring down Hashirama after he was revived and freed.

How can you say he took the earliest opportunity to bring him down when he spent multiple chapters allowing him to walk around unchallenged with those Inyouton rods pierced into him? If he took the earliest opportunity that would mean he paralyzed him the INSTANT he got perforated with those rods.

That didn't happen. And the reason it didn't is because he was waiting for Obito to be weakened before making his power play. I'll admit however that Itachi never wanted to kill Sasuke, but Madara wanted to eventually defeat Hashirama. Still, it wasn't until Obito was defeated.

This changes nothing. Maybe immediately after Madara got the rods into Hashirama he restrained him. Maybe he simply never got an opportunity. The reality is that the manga showed that Madara was about to be sealed, Hashirama had him restrained. You're arguing that he simply allowed this to happen, but this would be completely illogical from Madara's standpoint, and inconsistent with what we've seen from him.

No, we know for a fact that he didn't restrain him immediately after the rods were in him because we SAW Hashirama hopping around and talking for the length of a chapter while they were still inside him.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/4 Multiple rods stuck in him, Madara hasn't paralyzed him to prevent the summoning of the Mokuryu.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/5 Madara watches as Naruto gets nearby, creates a Chou Odama FRS and tosses it at him. Still neglecting to stop Hashirama.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/9 Kishimoto mistakenly draws Hashirama without the rods in his back, but Madara is sitting still, seemingly sealed.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/10 Madara smiles. Either he knows Black Zetsu has closed in on Obito, or he senses Obito's chakra dwindling. Either way, his plans are coming to fruition.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/17 Hashirama's rods are in again. Madara still hasn't subdued him.

Now, you're saying that wasn't his plan because it was too risky, since Hashirama had him restrained. Can you prove that he was genuinely restrained? It's only as risky as you say if Madara was truly subdued and had absolutely no way of escaping. From controlling Hashirama into releasing him, to making him fight off those that would have sealed him away, he wasn't stuck.

As for the logic of Madara choosing not to subdue him from the beginning, (almost resulting in him being sealed, but not really) I've explained it already: Madara could have stopped Hashirama early, but it wouldn't matter if Obito was still in fighting condition. He'd simply stomp Madara into the ground immediately after. Also, Madara likely was confident he could defeat the entire alliance... but not if they had Hashirama aiding them. The plan was to let the alliance weaken Obito, but keep Hashirama preocuppied so that he can't aid them.

 

[Impossibility]

Except there's nothing suggest he couldn't have moved if he had wanted to. That's not even how those techniques work. Neither prevent movement or action within them. What it speaks for is that he's finally getting on with his master plan. The Wooden Dragon was what Madara was caught in, thus the point. Not only do we know it can be fought against and broken out of, by something naturally weak against it, but if that was all that was required to stop Madara, then why would Hashirama have ever had trouble against Madara?

Him not moving, and Hashirama declaring the battle over wasn't enough. There is far more to support the idea that he couldn't move than this idea that he could. You make it seem as thought this is some minimal technique, and that simply having at technique good enough is enough to simply end a battle.

They were already even, meaning the boost from the sharingan would have put him over the edge; he wasn't all that weaken or exhausted and as we have been repeatedly told, Hashirama was the only one who could ever defeat him; he was in a better state then later in life, and again, Hashirama was the only thing considered a threat to him. His options all would have preserved his life and given him what he wanted. No benefits? Um, he got exactly what he wanted without having to do anything or risk being killed by Obito. How is that not a benefit. And again, what risk? Hashirama could do nothing but hold him at best. He decreased his risk, not increased it. What was he presuming, given that he had the ability to speak with Black Zetsu mentally and the implication that he was the one in control. He enacted events beforehand, and was resisting being sealed.

This seems pretty speculative. And Hashirama being said to be the only one capable of defeating Madara was obviously a statement intended toward Madara at full-strength, not Madara in that condition, and it also probably assumed one-on-one, not Madara being heavily outnumbered by top tier shinobi. And you're making a big assumption about Madara's condition later in life. That wasn't a benefit of allowing himself to be restrained, if he was free he would've been revived all the same. And there was a risk, clearly, because he was being sealed at the very moment he was revived. And he decreased his risk how, please try to justify this ridiculous claim. He was presuming that the allied forces would be able to weaken him to a state that Zetsu could take control without taking his life, and that no one would intervene in Zetsu's attempt to revive him. Both only occurred because of the gross stupidity of Minato and Kakashi.

I'm not failing to grasp anything. We're talking about a woman who was dying and nearly out of chakra. Considering the conditions, her being able to do anything is impressive. You act as if she was at 100% with nothing inhibiting her. And I wouldn't call coughing up blood a simple cough... She was also dying and out of chakra, which you seem to keep ignoring. And since said control wasn't the chakra chains, the method that Madara is using, then it doesn't matter.

Wait, nearly out of chakra? When? I'm not saying she was at 100%, that would be ridiculous to claim. I'm saying that someone that was exceptional, unique for her ability, struggled with one bijuu. And a moment's break in focus allowed that bijuu a chance to attack. So it is only logical that Madara should require momentous effort to bring in nine, and it too should require near singular focus. You brought up Kushina, not me. I referred to the attempts by Akatsuki that showed them taking an extended period of time to accomplish such a task with one bijuu, and claiming that the ceremony couldn't be interrupted.

But Sasuke's not placing Enton anywhere. They automatically appear upon activation, since the first time he attempted it against Kakashi when he had overused his MS. And I already mentioned what Madara's granted, new techniques. Madara is the only person shown using his Susanoo to preform a technique, the meteors.

But he can. Enton is an ability of his MS. And we've seen that Enton used in conjunction with a lower form of Susanoo, and without Susanoo at all. So claiming it is an ability gained as a result of an advancement of Susanoo doesn't make any sense. And Madara utilised his meteor in conjunction with Susanoo, it has been presumed to be an ability connected to the Rinnegan, and the mere fact that he used it with his lower form of Susanoo suggests that it had nothing to do with an advancement in Susanoo.

And I brought up Madara taking on Gaara's division, which you disagreed with and been discussing ever since. I showed him taking on Gaara's forces, which according to the series was basically a fifth of the entire army. Just because you "count less" doesn't change that. Now unless you can show that there was a huge lost in numbers before Madara fought them, there is no reason to believe that there was only a "few hundred".

And I disputed him taking on the entire division. The manga showed him taking on a few hundred at most, I simply put that number in perspective. I don't cimply 'count' less, the manga shows him taking on less. There is a reason to believe there was only a few hundred because that's what the manga showed.

Obito being dead doesn't matter to him being used by Madara. And Hashirama's techniques didn't prevent Madara from enacting Rinne Tensei. And as I mentioned, Sai's technique was normally instantaneously. Yet it was taking much longer with Madara": it was being resisted.

I'd say it does. Otherwise he wouldn't have been revived at that moment, and instead would've been sealed. Zetsu enacted Rinne Tensei, it was he that made the seals and utilised Obito's power. There are more panels in between that seal and the attempt to seal Madara before Rinne Tensei, and that guy had just been cut in half, and was right next to the seal, as opposed to Madara, who was quite a distance away. Sai's words make it clear that Madara was about to be sealed, he seemed confident that everything was going just fine.

I was actually referring to when Black Zetsu says Obito wouldn't die easily because he still had the Mazo equipped to him, giving him incredible longevity. Madara has the same knowledge that Black Zetsu does, so he would know.

Longevity doesn't mean immortality. If Sasuke had cut him in half, that would've been that. If he'd even just cut off his arms, he wouldn't have been able to make the seal necessary. Furthermore, if the two stooges, Kakashi and Minato, acted instead of just admiring Zetsu's work, they too could've intervened. Knowing that they had intervened wouldn't have changed the fact that they had and that he was in the process of being sealed.

How can you say he took the earliest opportunity to bring him down when he spent multiple chapters allowing him to walk around unchallenged with those Inyouton rods pierced into him? If he took the earliest opportunity that would mean he paralyzed him the INSTANT he got perforated with those rods.

No, we know for a fact that he didn't restrain him immediately after the rods were in him because we SAW Hashirama hopping around and talking for the length of a chapter while they were still inside him.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/4 Multiple rods stuck in him, Madara hasn't paralyzed him to prevent the summoning of the Mokuryu.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/5 Madara watches as Naruto gets nearby, creates a Chou Odama FRS and tosses it at him. Still neglecting to stop Hashirama.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/9 Kishimoto mistakenly draws Hashirama without the rods in his back, but Madara is sitting still, seemingly sealed.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/10 Madara smiles. Either he knows Black Zetsu has closed in on Obito, or he senses Obito's chakra dwindling. Either way, his plans are coming to fruition.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/656/17 Hashirama's rods are in again. Madara still hasn't subdued him.

That didn't happen. And the reason it didn't is because he was waiting for Obito to be weakened before making his power play. I'll admit however that Itachi never wanted to kill Sasuke, but Madara wanted to eventually defeat Hashirama. Still, it wasn't until Obito was defeated.

Multiple chapters? Madara's revival and Hashirama's defeat happen in the same chapter. Maybe he didn't have enough power to paralyse him before his revival, maybe as soon as he got the rods into him Hashirama had restrained him? Who knows? Your earliest link with Hashirama with rods has Madara trapped by Hashirama's dragon. There isn't any point after that that I've seen where Madara's out and about and free to do as he pleases. And you agree that Itachi and Sasuke are an entirely different matter. Madara, without any doubt, wanted to defeat Hashirama.

Now, you're saying that wasn't his plan because it was too risky, since Hashirama had him restrained. Can you prove that he was genuinely restrained? It's only as risky as you say if Madara was truly subdued and had absolutely no way of escaping. From controlling Hashirama into releasing him, to making him fight off those that would have sealed him away, he wasn't stuck.

Can you prove that he wasn't? The manga showed something and you're essentially disputing the legitimacy of the outcome of that battle, I'd say it's up to you to prove that Madara could move. As I said to Rikudou King above, there is a lot more to support Madara being restrained than there is to say that he could do something about it; his lack of movement, Hashirama's statement, and his imminent sealing.

As for the logic of Madara choosing not to subdue him from the beginning, (almost resulting in him being sealed, but not really) I've explained it already: Madara could have stopped Hashirama early, but it wouldn't matter if Obito was still in fighting condition. He'd simply stomp Madara into the ground immediately after. Also, Madara likely was confident he could defeat the entire alliance... but not if they had Hashirama aiding them. The plan was to let the alliance weaken Obito, but keep Hashirama preocuppied so that he can't aid them.

You're saying that he could've stopped Hashirama earlier, but I don't see where that argument is brought forward. But that isn't necessarily the case, Madara seemed to suggest that he expected himself to have to face Obito. And what if Obito had won? Or if Obito had perished? We saw Obito a moment from death when Sasuke was about to finish him off. And the alliance's victory against Obito was far from assured. And if he feared that Hashirama could aid the alliance in defeating him, the logical thing would be to get rid of him as soon as possible, since Hashirama wasn't moving Madara's goals forward whatsoever. There wasn't any reason to keep Hashirama around, you say so yourself.

 

[ninjabot]

Longevity doesn't mean immortality. If Sasuke had cut him in half, that would've been that. If he'd even just cut off his arms, he wouldn't have been able to make the seal necessary. Furthermore, if the two stooges, Kakashi and Minato, acted instead of just admiring Zetsu's work, they too could've intervened. Knowing that they had intervened wouldn't have changed the fact that they had and that he was in the process of being sealed.

Not immortal, sure. But hardy enough to survive losing the Juubi for a long time. Do I have to remind you that Tsunade suffered that same injury (bisection) and held on until the Juubi reached it's next-to-last form? As for Black Zetsu's ability to defend against Minato, Kakashi, or Sasuke, it was the Zetsu side of Obito who managed to block Sasuke's Kagutsuchi arrow with plain old Inyouton stakes, and as Minato and Kakashi... they probably didn't want to attempt stabbing the monster that was fusing it's flesh to Obito, because Kakashi had just expressed his wish for Obito to stay with them and live on.

Multiple chapters? Madara's revival and Hashirama's defeat happen in the same chapter.

That's not what we're debating (not me at least), it's the amount of time in between the application of the Inyouton rods and the time when Madara was revived via Rinne Tensei. I was showing you that you were wrong that he chose the "first second" to take control of Hashirama with the rods. That was multiple chapters. I won't wager a guess as to how many minutes passed over that time period, but regardless my point was made.

Madara, without any doubt, wanted to defeat Hashirama.

Ofcourse, but it was at no point during their actual fight, proven by the fact that he could, yet chose not to. It takes no handseals to control the Inyouton, making it unlikely that the seal managed to stop him from using it just by limiting his ability to move.

Can you prove that he wasn't?

I proved he could still manipulate his chakra while sealed (which is all it takes for the Inyouton to work) by showing his ability to telepathically communicate with Black Zetsu, so I'd say yes.

You're saying that he could've stopped Hashirama earlier, but I don't see where that argument is brought forward.

I'm sorry then. I've failed to see any proof that he couldn't manipulate his rods while sealed, considering they require no handseals. And that's the literal only way I'd ever believe that Madara didn't throw the fight, since WINNING the fight would have been absolutely effortless. Well, after stabbing him with the rods I mean.

But that isn't necessarily the case, Madara seemed to suggest that he expected himself to have to face Obito. And what if Obito had won? Or if Obito had perished?

This was the point of making sure that Hashirama was kept out of the fight. Obito and the alliance would weaken eachother enough that Madara could capture Obito, but if Hashirama had joined the alliance, they would have outright defeated him, leaving him with no access to the Juubi. He had to keep Hashirama preoccupied. If he'd won, then Madara will have changed his mind, agreeing to Hashirama's original plan (to aid him in fighting Obito). Then, he'd double-cross him. Most likely.

We saw Obito a moment from death when Sasuke was about to finish him off. And the alliance's victory against Obito was far from assured. And if he feared that Hashirama could aid the alliance in defeating him, the logical thing would be to get rid of him as soon as possible, since Hashirama wasn't moving Madara's goals forward whatsoever. There wasn't any reason to keep Hashirama around, you say so yourself.

Do you think Hashirama would have accepted destruction of the world over Mugen Tsukuyomi? All jokes aside, the first part of the plan was to let Obito and the alliance weaken eachother while Hashirama is kept out of harm's way so he can't be destroyed since he'll be needed for the second part of the plan. The second part of the plan was to use said Hashirama to strengthen himself so that he can take control of the Shinju (as he said). He wasn't gonna do it immediately because, obviously, he would've been murdered by Obito as his plan would be obvious.

 

[Impossibility]

Not immortal, sure. But hardy enough to survive losing the Juubi for a long time. Do I have to remind you that Tsunade suffered that same injury (bisection) and held on until the Juubi reached it's next-to-last form? As for Black Zetsu's ability to defend against Minato, Kakashi, or Sasuke, it was the Zetsu side of Obito who managed to block Sasuke's Kagutsuchi arrow with plain old Inyouton stakes, and as Minato and Kakashi... they probably didn't want to attempt stabbing the monster that was fusing it's flesh to Obito, because Kakashi had just expressed his wish for Obito to stay with them and live on.

I agree, but a concerted effort by Sasuke would've finished him. Unlike Madara, Sasuke is a bit more thorough, he wouldn't just leave Obito to die, he'd finish him himself. I've never been a Sasuke fan, as you probably know, but Sasuke's actions during those chapters made him seem like the only sane character around. But that was chance, what if Minato and Kakashi hadn't been thinking in that manner, or someone else, once again, tried to intervene. There were a number of factors that could've changed the outcome, and most were completely beyond Madara's control at that point. It worked out, but there were a myriad more ways that it wouldn't have worked out. Madara got lucky, Kakashi and Minato were willing and able to intervene in Obito's execution. And they also didn't even try to stop Zetsu.

That's not what we're debating (not me at least), it's the amount of time in between the application of the Inyouton rods and the time when Madara was revived via Rinne Tensei. I was showing you that you were wrong that he chose the "first second" to take control of Hashirama with the rods. That was multiple chapters. I won't wager a guess as to how many minutes passed over that time period, but regardless my point was made.

When I said he took the first opportunity, I was referring to after his revival and freedom.

Ofcourse, but it was at no point during their actual fight, proven by the fact that he could, yet chose not to. It takes no handseals to control the Inyouton, making it unlikely that the seal managed to stop him from using it just by limiting his ability to move.

The full effect of Hashirama's seal aren't entirely known, or Madara's ability at the time, so it seems like speculation to state that he could've utilised the rods even being restrained by Hashirama. And even if he had used the rods, would that have immediately released the effect of Hashirama's mokuton, or stop his imminent sealing? This requires a lot of filling in, I find it hard to find that more palatable than what was, in my mind, so clearly put forward.

I proved he could still manipulate his chakra while sealed (which is all it takes for the Inyouton to work) by showing his ability to telepathically communicate with Black Zetsu, so I'd say yes.

The connection between Zetsu and Madara isn't entirely understood. Being able to communicate with Zetsu doesn't indicate that he was capable of utilising the rods. The line could be maintained by Zetsu's chakra, or some other mechanism.

I'm sorry then. I've failed to see any proof that he couldn't manipulate his rods while sealed, considering they require no handseals. And that's the literal only way I'd ever believe that Madara didn't throw the fight, since WINNING the fight would have been absolutely effortless. Well, after stabbing him with the rods I mean.

And I've failed to see proof that he could, in fact, there appears to be more to suggest otherwise.

This was the point of making sure that Hashirama was kept out of the fight. Obito and the alliance would weaken eachother enough that Madara could capture Obito, but if Hashirama had joined the alliance, they would have outright defeated him, leaving him with no access to the Juubi. He had to keep Hashirama preoccupied. If he'd won, then Madara will have changed his mind, agreeing to Hashirama's original plan (to aid him in fighting Obito). Then, he'd double-cross him. Most likely.

If he wanted to keep Hashirama out of the fight the simplest way would've been to just defeat him. Where does allowing Hashirama to restrain him, with the possible risk of someone sealing him, help that cause? Why didn't he bring him down earlier? There isn't any reasonable conclusions other than he couldn't or Madara is completely incompetent, which seems the far less likely of the two.

Do you think Hashirama would have accepted destruction of the world over Mugen Tsukuyomi? All jokes aside, the first part of the plan was to let Obito and the alliance weaken eachother while Hashirama is kept out of harm's way so he can't be destroyed since he'll be needed for the second part of the plan. The second part of the plan was to use said Hashirama to strengthen himself so that he can take control of the Shinju (as he said). He wasn't gonna do it immediately because, obviously, he would've been murdered by Obito as his plan would be obvious.

This would be a possibility if Madara's rods destroyed Hashirama, but they didn't. They simply limited his movement. Defeating Hashirama without completely eliminating him is a possibility, as we've seen. So why didn't he simply do it before? Hashirama would've still been available, but under control, and Madara wouldn't have been exposed to any further risks. Doing so wouldn't have changed anything other than lessening the risk of Madara's defeat. There isn't any logical reason for Madara to have waited until that point other than he was unable to do so prior to that, there was no reason for him to allow himself to be restrained.

 

[Rikudou King]

Him not moving, and Hashirama declaring the battle over wasn't enough. There is far more to support the idea that he couldn't move than this idea that he could. You make it seem as thought this is some minimal technique, and that simply having at technique good enough is enough to simply end a battle.

Not moving and not resisting in any way, despite neither seal having such an effect. And what Hashirama believed doesn't make it true. Hashirama also believed that Madara wasn't about to begin his counterattack and how did that go? We have seen the techniques used on others who were still capable of fighting against them and breaking free. There isn't a single explanation for why Madara wouldn't have fought back if he was losing other then the completely random "well he lost so he gave up", which doesn't fit his character at all. Not to mention that such a thing doesn't even fit with the sequence of events, given the fact that Madara was freed for a short time between sealing when Naruto's FRS hit him. That's the argument being put forth, that Hashirama trapped Madara with the Wooden Dragon and instantly won, without Madara being able to do anything about it. If that is what's being claimed, then one is claiming that Hashirama having it was good enough to end a battle with a Madara stronger then the original, and therefore the original. If you claim otherwise, then you're acknowledging that there was more going on then appears for Madara to be detained by it, and then we're back to him allowing it because it was just simpler.

This seems pretty speculative. And Hashirama being said to be the only one capable of defeating Madara was obviously a statement intended toward Madara at full-strength, not Madara in that condition, and it also probably assumed one-on-one, not Madara being heavily outnumbered by top tier shinobi. And you're making a big assumption about Madara's condition later in life. That wasn't a benefit of allowing himself to be restrained, if he was free he would've been revived all the same. And there was a risk, clearly, because he was being sealed at the very moment he was revived. And he decreased his risk how, please try to justify this ridiculous claim. He was presuming that the allied forces would be able to weaken him to a state that Zetsu could take control without taking his life, and that no one would intervene in Zetsu's attempt to revive him. Both only occurred because of the gross stupidity of Minato and Kakashi.

It was established that they were about even, something that had pretty much remained til their final battle. Madara took on both Onoki and Muu, two top-tier shinobi, without even having to go all out. Dan doubted the idea that the Gokages could handle him despite not even knowing about his new power-ups. Even Hhashirama had trouble with a weakened Madara. What big assumption? We know he was still mobile because he went and placed his eyes in Nagato. And the only reason stated that he couldn't leave his cave was due to being so near death.

Sure there was. With others under the belief that he was restrained, and therefore harmless, they were less likely to focus on him before he was ready. He made it so he wasn't a threat on the battlefield anymore. That wasn't a risk, because as mentioned before, he had already activated his plan and was resisting. It would only have been a risk if they had attempted to seal him before Obito had been dealt with, but that wasn't gonna happen because Obito was a much bigger threat at the time. As said before, whether Obito lived or died didn't matter. Again, the Rinnegan already allowed Madara to control Obito once like a Path, and would still have been effective with an actual dead Obito.

Wait, nearly out of chakra? When? I'm not saying she was at 100%, that would be ridiculous to claim. I'm saying that someone that was exceptional, unique for her ability, struggled with one bijuu. And a moment's break in focus allowed that bijuu a chance to attack. So it is only logical that Madara should require momentous effort to bring in nine, and it too should require near singular focus. You brought up Kushina, not me. I referred to the attempts by Akatsuki that showed them taking an extended period of time to accomplish such a task with one bijuu, and claiming that the ceremony couldn't be interrupted.

Kushina states that her chakra is almost gone right before she uses the chains. And I'm pointing out that the only reason she "struggled" was because of her condition, dying and nearly out of chakra. Even then, she still had no trouble holding the Kyuubi while Minato talked and did his thing. She only ran into trouble when she reached her limit, a completely unique situation. When she wasn't in such a situation, she literally had no trouble containing the Kyuubi and then going off to talk to Naruto elsewhere. So consideirng Madara is back at 100%, there isn't ay reason to think he couldn't pull them in easily (especially since recent chapters has shown just that, him using the chakra chains and doing other stuff like attacking at the same time). Which again, didn't involve the chakra chains. The method that Akatsuki used is completely different from the one Obito and Madara employed.

But he can. Enton is an ability of his MS. And we've seen that Enton used in conjunction with a lower form of Susanoo, and without Susanoo at all. So claiming it is an ability gained as a result of an advancement of Susanoo doesn't make any sense. And Madara utilised his meteor in conjunction with Susanoo, it has been presumed to be an ability connected to the Rinnegan, and the mere fact that he used it with his lower form of Susanoo suggests that it had nothing to do with an advancement in Susanoo.

I didn't say Enton as an ability was granted, I said that his Susanoo's evolution has granted him an orb and blade of Enton automatically. It automatically appeared simply upon activation, despite Sasuke not purposely creating the flames and has happen every single time Sasuke called upon that version. No other version has had that happen. Rinnegan techniques don't require handseals, and the meteors involved not only Madara forming handseals, but his Susanoo forming them too. Why would he need to form handseals with Susanoo if it was not connected? And I don't see how you can claim that it has nothing to do with the advancement, unless you have some proof that new abilities are only gained at X-version of it...

And I disputed him taking on the entire division. The manga showed him taking on a few hundred at most, I simply put that number in perspective. I don't cimply 'count' less, the manga shows him taking on less. There is a reason to believe there was only a few hundred because that's what the manga showed.

The manga shows him taking on Gaara's devision, which as it stands was made up of about a fifth of the total forces. And considering the perspective, how exactly can you claim only a few hundred was shown when we were never given a panoramic viewing?

I'd say it does. Otherwise he wouldn't have been revived at that moment, and instead would've been sealed. Zetsu enacted Rinne Tensei, it was he that made the seals and utilised Obito's power. There are more panels in between that seal and the attempt to seal Madara before Rinne Tensei, and that guy had just been cut in half, and was right next to the seal, as opposed to Madara, who was quite a distance away. Sai's words make it clear that Madara was about to be sealed, he seemed confident that everything was going just fine.

As repeatedly mentioned, the Rinnegan can control the dead with the rods, which Oboto already had inside of him. Madara would still have been able to control Obito, dead or alive. The manga implies that it was Madara who activated it, or at least directed it. I don't know why you're mentioning distances when we have already seen that Madara doesn't need to be close to control Obito. It's pretty clear Madara knew what was going on despite the distances, and considering he was then shown communicating with Black Zetsu over an even larger distances, there isn't any reason to think that he suddenly got weaker with it. Right, because Sai has never overestimated himself and ended up screwing up? The point remains that we saw the way his sealing normally works and it wasn't working like that against Madara.

 

[Impossibility]

Not moving and not resisting in any way, despite neither seal having such an effect. And what Hashirama believed doesn't make it true. Hashirama also believed that Madara wasn't about to begin his counterattack and how did that go? We have seen the techniques used on others who were still capable of fighting against them and breaking free. There isn't a single explanation for why Madara wouldn't have fought back if he was losing other then the completely random "well he lost so he gave up", which doesn't fit his character at all. Not to mention that such a thing doesn't even fit with the sequence of events, given the fact that Madara was freed for a short time between sealing when Naruto's FRS hit him. That's the argument being put forth, that Hashirama trapped Madara with the Wooden Dragon and instantly won, without Madara being able to do anything about it. If that is what's being claimed, then one is claiming that Hashirama having it was good enough to end a battle with a Madara stronger then the original, and therefore the original. If you claim otherwise, then you're acknowledging that there was more going on then appears for Madara to be detained by it, and then we're back to him allowing it because it was just simpler.

It had an effect, the effect was clear. He wasn't moving. Hashirama believing it is only further support. You're arguing something that goes against the grain, and the only argument you're putting forward is that he could without any justification. There wasn't any evidence that he could get free, and there wasn't any reason for him to allow himself to end up in such a position, yet you continue to argue for such a thing. These questions about Madara's unaccounted for actions don't change any of that.

It was established that they were about even, something that had pretty much remained til their final battle. Madara took on both Onoki and Muu, two top-tier shinobi, without even having to go all out. Dan doubted the idea that the Gokages could handle him despite not even knowing about his new power-ups. Even Hhashirama had trouble with a weakened Madara. What big assumption? We know he was still mobile because he went and placed his eyes in Nagato. And the only reason stated that he couldn't leave his cave was due to being so near death.

And yet every time Madara popped out a new trick, whether it was MS, EMS, or Kurama, Hashirama won anyway. And what does taking on Oonoki and Muu have to do with taking on an entire village? Being mobile enough to place eyes in a kid is far removed from laying siege to an entire village.

Sure there was. With others under the belief that he was restrained, and therefore harmless, they were less likely to focus on him before he was ready. He made it so he wasn't a threat on the battlefield anymore. That wasn't a risk, because as mentioned before, he had already activated his plan and was resisting. It would only have been a risk if they had attempted to seal him before Obito had been dealt with, but that wasn't gonna happen because Obito was a much bigger threat at the time. As said before, whether Obito lived or died didn't matter. Again, the Rinnegan already allowed Madara to control Obito once like a Path, and would still have been effective with an actual dead Obito.

Yet they were as focused on him as ever. Hashirama was there, along with a host of shinobi. And if he was so untouchable as you've suggested, then it wouldn't make any difference. Activated his plan? Obito remained on a rampage with considerable strength. The activation of his plan was absolutely nothing. And yes it mattered, because he needed to be revived, if Obito was dead he'd be a long way from that.

Kushina states that her chakra is almost gone right before she uses the chains. And I'm pointing out that the only reason she "struggled" was because of her condition, dying and nearly out of chakra. Even then, she still had no trouble holding the Kyuubi while Minato talked and did his thing. She only ran into trouble when she reached her limit, a completely unique situation. When she wasn't in such a situation, she literally had no trouble containing the Kyuubi and then going off to talk to Naruto elsewhere. So consideirng Madara is back at 100%, there isn't ay reason to think he couldn't pull them in easily (especially since recent chapters has shown just that, him using the chakra chains and doing other stuff like attacking at the same time). Which again, didn't involve the chakra chains. The method that Akatsuki used is completely different from the one Obito and Madara employed.

And you're still missing the point. She was exceptional, special, and she managed one, and weakened struggled with just one. Madara is attempting nine, plus the counter effect of two jins. The task is obviously far more difficult. And Kushina showed that a break in focus was enough for her control to waver. Akatsuki did however utilise the Mazo, and it's simply an obvious comparison. I consider it even more relevant than Kushina's efforts considering the tools utilised, and then there is also Obito' struggles. These things together would indicate that dragging in nine bijuu isn't something you can casually pull off while fighting off others.

I didn't say Enton as an ability was granted, I said that his Susanoo's evolution has granted him an orb and blade of Enton automatically. It automatically appeared simply upon activation, despite Sasuke not purposely creating the flames and has happen every single time Sasuke called upon that version. No other version has had that happen. Rinnegan techniques don't require handseals, and the meteors involved not only Madara forming handseals, but his Susanoo forming them too. Why would he need to form handseals with Susanoo if it was not connected? And I don't see how you can claim that it has nothing to do with the advancement, unless you have some proof that new abilities are only gained at X-version of it...

Those aren't abilities or techniques, that's a difference in form. You stated that an advancement in Susanoo provides new abilities, yet there is nothing to suggest that is the case. As for Madara's techniques, it has commonly been assumed that his meteor was related to his Rinnegan, there are obvious similarities with Chibaku tensei. Furthermore, using seals with the Susanoo doesn't indicate it's an ability gained through Susanoo, and even further along, it doesn't support in any way the argument that an advancement in Susanoo provides new abilities. It was utilised in a lesser form of Susanoo to start with. Do you have anything whatsoever to support the argument that Tengai Shinsei is an ability gained through the advancement of Susanoo?

The manga shows him taking on Gaara's devision, which as it stands was made up of about a fifth of the total forces. And considering the perspective, how exactly can you claim only a few hundred was shown when we were never given a panoramic viewing?

Yes. However, you've extrapolated that to numbers that weren't shown. We were given a view of Madara taking on individuals, that should be more than enough to show who he took on.

As repeatedly mentioned, the Rinnegan can control the dead with the rods, which Oboto already had inside of him. Madara would still have been able to control Obito, dead or alive. The manga implies that it was Madara who activated it, or at least directed it. I don't know why you're mentioning distances when we have already seen that Madara doesn't need to be close to control Obito. It's pretty clear Madara knew what was going on despite the distances, and considering he was then shown communicating with Black Zetsu over an even larger distances, there isn't any reason to think that he suddenly got weaker with it. Right, because Sai has never overestimated himself and ended up screwing up? The point remains that we saw the way his sealing normally works and it wasn't working like that against Madara.

And how was Madara going to control him? There isn't any evidence that he could've managed such a thing. And the manga indicates that Madara was the one that activated it, really? Despite there being a split screen, Zetsu making the handseal, and Obito, controlled by Zetsu, being instrumental and absolutely necessary. Distance, the reference to distance comes when I've begun to address Sai's sealing attempt. I mean it's right there in the sentence. There is a single panel between the seal locking on and Madara being revived, just one. So everyone is completely clueless, and you with your complete lack of support or evidence have managed to sort everything out.

 

[Wint]

I'm in agony, guys. There hasn't been a chapter in 3 weeks, and I need my fix.

now playing: Ayreon - Into the Black Hole

 

[razor]

I cannot imagine what happens after Naruto ends. Maybe wait for another "Same like Dragon Ball and naruto" manga?

 

[Schabrak]

I'm not entirely sure how both are the same, aside from the same genre and battles.

 

[Rikudou King]

It had an effect, the effect was clear. He wasn't moving. Hashirama believing it is only further support. You're arguing something that goes against the grain, and the only argument you're putting forward is that he could without any justification. There wasn't any evidence that he could get free, and there wasn't any reason for him to allow himself to end up in such a position, yet you continue to argue for such a thing. These questions about Madara's unaccounted for actions don't change any of that.

We know the effects of the techniques and neither of them prevent the target from moving. I'm not arguing against the grain, I'm arguing in support of what was actually shown. My "justification" is the fact that we have already seen both those techniques used before without prevents the target from escaping AND the implication that Madara was the one directing things with Obito. There only no evidence if you completely ignore pass showing of those very same techniques. And the reason was already clearly stated, allowing him to succeed without needing to lift a finger or endanger himself against someone who could actually have killed him.

And yet every time Madara popped out a new trick, whether it was MS, EMS, or Kurama, Hashirama won anyway. And what does taking on Oonoki and Muu have to do with taking on an entire village? Being mobile enough to place eyes in a kid is far removed from laying siege to an entire village.

Hashirama barely won, which is kind of the point. We were outright shown that when they both went all out, it was pretty much to the limit and the winner decided by fortune. I brought up Onoki and Muu because it shows that even outnumbered by "top tier shinobi", Madara has an easy time. It's hardly as if he woul have had to deal with more then a handful of such ninjas upon attacking the village, as we have seen time and again. And given that merely using his prefect Susanoo is enough to destroy mountains and lay waste akin to a Bijuu, taking on an entire village would be child's play. And as mentioned, the only reason stated for his lack of mobility later on in life was due to being so near death. No other problems were mentioned.

Yet they were as focused on him as ever. Hashirama was there, along with a host of shinobi. And if he was so untouchable as you've suggested, then it wouldn't make any difference. Activated his plan? Obito remained on a rampage with considerable strength. The activation of his plan was absolutely nothing. And yes it mattered, because he needed to be revived, if Obito was dead he'd be a long way from that.

They didn't focus on him til after Obito's defeat, which was the point when he was ready to begin. He wasn't untouchable to Obito, which is the entire point. And what? Um, Obito was down and out when Madara activated his plan. Again, thanks to the Rinnegan and it's ability to control the death, there wouldn't have been any difference in puppeting Obito.

And you're still missing the point. She was exceptional, special, and she managed one, and weakened struggled with just one. Madara is attempting nine, plus the counter effect of two jins. The task is obviously far more difficult. And Kushina showed that a break in focus was enough for her control to waver. Akatsuki did however utilise the Mazo, and it's simply an obvious comparison. I consider it even more relevant than Kushina's efforts considering the tools utilised, and then there is also Obito' struggles. These things together would indicate that dragging in nine bijuu isn't something you can casually pull off while fighting off others.

BECAUSE SHE WAS DYING AND NEARLY OUT OF CHAKRA. I seem to have missed the part in the series where dying and being low on chakra don't cause a person any problems... When Kushina wasn't dying, she could detain the Kyuubi and go off to have a heart to heart with Naruto without any problems, so clearly a "break in focus" wasn't an issue. Akatsuki used a different technique and weren't dragging anything into it. Obito never struggled with dragging the Bijuus in, so that would support the counterargument. The only time we have seen anyone have trouble using the chakra chains were when they were dying and nearly out of chakra. That would make it an exception, not the standard.

Those aren't abilities or techniques, that's a difference in form. You stated that an advancement in Susanoo provides new abilities, yet there is nothing to suggest that is the case. As for Madara's techniques, it has commonly been assumed that his meteor was related to his Rinnegan, there are obvious similarities with Chibaku tensei. Furthermore, using seals with the Susanoo doesn't indicate it's an ability gained through Susanoo, and even further along, it doesn't support in any way the argument that an advancement in Susanoo provides new abilities. It was utilised in a lesser form of Susanoo to start with. Do you have anything whatsoever to support the argument that Tengai Shinsei is an ability gained through the advancement of Susanoo?

Those are new abilities/techniques. Sasuke has neither his arrow-sword or magatama outside of his complete Susanoo. And the "common consensus" is that it's from Susanoo. Why would Susanoo using seals not be an indication that's it's from Susanoo? When have we ever seen Susanoo use seals for any other technique, and why would Susanoo employ handseals for no reason or purpose? Also, as mentioned before, Rinnegan techniques don't require handseals, so there wouldn't be any reason for not just Susanoo, but Madara too, to employ handseals for it if it was from the Rinnegan. You mean besides the fact that Susanoo employed seals for it? How about the fact that to use it, Madara had to activate Susanoo first, despite already having his Rinnegan activated. He had no other reason to activate Susanoo, as it clearly wasn't for any sort of protection, as Madara was already aware of.

Yes. However, you've extrapolated that to numbers that weren't shown. We were given a view of Madara taking on individuals, that should be more than enough to show who he took on.

I extrapolated to the number suggested. And yes, we were given a view of Gaara's division, and there were clearly more then a "few" hundred in it.

And how was Madara going to control him? There isn't any evidence that he could've managed such a thing. And the manga indicates that Madara was the one that activated it, really? Despite there being a split screen, Zetsu making the handseal, and Obito, controlled by Zetsu, being instrumental and absolutely necessary. Distance, the reference to distance comes when I've begun to address Sai's sealing attempt. I mean it's right there in the sentence. There is a single panel between the seal locking on and Madara being revived, just one. So everyone is completely clueless, and you with your complete lack of support or evidence have managed to sort everything out.

Huh? I believe I already mentioned that Obito already had the Path rods inside of him, which is how Madara took control of him the first time. I don't know why you claim there isn't any evidence when we have actually already seem Madara do so before. Yeah, I would consider a viewing of Madara (in the first split-view) widely opening his Rinnegan with "speed lines" coming from it and the technique declaration across both panels to be an indication that it was Madara who either activated it or directed it. There is no other reason to have Madara there. Ah, got it. Anyway, there are three panels, with the following two being on the next page, where nothing is happening as oppose to there being no panels of such the first time. So your argument is that we should go by Hashirama and Sai's words instead of Madara's words, despite having a wider view of what was going on then they did and being aware that Madara's counterattack indeed was about to happen, in addition to knowing what type of person Madara is? I mean, obviously Madara's the type to simply give up when beaten and would never ever attempt to escape a sealing technique... Except you know, all the other times he got caught in a sealing technique and fought to escape it...

 

[Impossibility]

We know the effects of the techniques and neither of them prevent the target from moving. I'm not arguing against the grain, I'm arguing in support of what was actually shown. My "justification" is the fact that we have already seen both those techniques used before without prevents the target from escaping AND the implication that Madara was the one directing things with Obito. There only no evidence if you completely ignore pass showing of those very same techniques. And the reason was already clearly stated, allowing him to succeed without needing to lift a finger or endanger himself against someone who could actually have killed him.

So what is it you're proposing the technique does? No we've seen beings escape the techniques, that doesn't mean Madara was capable of such a thing. And Madara directing Zetsu doesn't show in any way that he could break out of the tech. Except he lifted a finger, he engaged Hashirama, made a big scene about it, and he did endanger himself. So, no.

Hashirama barely won, which is kind of the point. We were outright shown that when they both went all out, it was pretty much to the limit and the winner decided by fortune. I brought up Onoki and Muu because it shows that even outnumbered by "top tier shinobi", Madara has an easy time. It's hardly as if he woul have had to deal with more then a handful of such ninjas upon attacking the village, as we have seen time and again. And given that merely using his prefect Susanoo is enough to destroy mountains and lay waste akin to a Bijuu, taking on an entire village would be child's play. And as mentioned, the only reason stated for his lack of mobility later on in life was due to being so near death. No other problems were mentioned.

But, he won, which is kind of my point. Two v one is somehow supposed to compare to taking on an entire village with individuals that are as talented and one who was probably better than either of them. A handful is more than two. Madara didn't lay siege to Konoha because he knew he would lose.

They didn't focus on him til after Obito's defeat, which was the point when he was ready to begin. He wasn't untouchable to Obito, which is the entire point. And what? Um, Obito was down and out when Madara activated his plan. Again, thanks to the Rinnegan and it's ability to control the death, there wouldn't have been any difference in puppeting Obito.

Hashirama had nothing to do with the battle against Obito. Obito was pretty much the focus of four shinobi up until the moments before his defeat. And Madara wasn't untouchable to other shinobi either. I presumed that the plan you were referencing was this plan you've been laying out where Madara would allow himself to get defeated and hope it worked out with Obito. Otherwise, Madara's plan came into effect after he had been restrained. The Rinnegan doesn't control death, firstly, and there isn't anything to suggest that Madara would've been able to manipulate Obito under the circumstances or that the dead body would've been capable of reviving him.

BECAUSE SHE WAS DYING AND NEARLY OUT OF CHAKRA. I seem to have missed the part in the series where dying and being low on chakra don't cause a person any problems... When Kushina wasn't dying, she could detain the Kyuubi and go off to have a heart to heart with Naruto without any problems, so clearly a "break in focus" wasn't an issue. Akatsuki used a different technique and weren't dragging anything into it. Obito never struggled with dragging the Bijuus in, so that would support the counterargument. The only time we have seen anyone have trouble using the chakra chains were when they were dying and nearly out of chakra. That would make it an exception, not the standard.

You're repeating the same thing over and over. Akatsuki is more effective an example than Kushina. And Obito struggled with control of the bijuu, control using a similar means. And Madara's recent comments in the most recent chapter would seem to support my argument, it wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination for him.

Those are new abilities/techniques. Sasuke has neither his arrow-sword or magatama outside of his complete Susanoo. And the "common consensus" is that it's from Susanoo. Why would Susanoo using seals not be an indication that's it's from Susanoo? When have we ever seen Susanoo use seals for any other technique, and why would Susanoo employ handseals for no reason or purpose? Also, as mentioned before, Rinnegan techniques don't require handseals, so there wouldn't be any reason for not just Susanoo, but Madara too, to employ handseals for it if it was from the Rinnegan. You mean besides the fact that Susanoo employed seals for it? How about the fact that to use it, Madara had to activate Susanoo first, despite already having his Rinnegan activated. He had no other reason to activate Susanoo, as it clearly wasn't for any sort of protection, as Madara was already aware of.

So a sword is a technique? Is another Susanoo limb a technique? It's a change in form. Susanoo can be altered, we've seen it take different shapes entirely. Forming a blade or a bow is a non-issue, it isn't a technique. Susanoo used seals, Madara used seals, maybe it made the technique more powerful, who knows. Even if Susanoo making seals was necessary for him to pull off the technique, that in no way shows that an advancement in Susanoo provides new techniques. He had to activate his Sharigan to use Susanoo, you've said it yourself.

I extrapolated to the number suggested. And yes, we were given a view of Gaara's division, and there were clearly more then a "few" hundred in it.

What does that image have to do with the numbers Madara faced? You can go back to look at a ton of people behind Gaara at the start of the war, but can't bother to look at the numbers Madara took on.

Huh? I believe I already mentioned that Obito already had the Path rods inside of him, which is how Madara took control of him the first time. I don't know why you claim there isn't any evidence when we have actually already seem Madara do so before. Yeah, I would consider a viewing of Madara (in the first split-view) widely opening his Rinnegan with "speed lines" coming from it and the technique declaration across both panels to be an indication that it was Madara who either activated it or directed it. There is no other reason to have Madara there. Ah, got it. Anyway, there are three panels, with the following two being on the next page, where nothing is happening as oppose to there being no panels of such the first time. So your argument is that we should go by Hashirama and Sai's words instead of Madara's words, despite having a wider view of what was going on then they did and being aware that Madara's counterattack indeed was about to happen, in addition to knowing what type of person Madara is? I mean, obviously Madara's the type to simply give up when beaten and would never ever attempt to escape a sealing technique... Except you know, all the other times he got caught in a sealing technique and fought to escape it...

And how'd that last attempt work out for him, back then he was even free. The reason to have Madara there was that he was involved. The other two panels are after Madara's revival. And Madara said there was going to be a counterattack because he expected to be revived, he didn't say Sai's seal wasn't working and he didn't say Hashirama's seal was ineffective, which is what the issue is. And the questions you ask support my argument. Madara isn't the type to simply allow himself to be sealed; his counterstroke was Zetsu, he himself couldn't handle it alone.

 

[Rikudou King]

So what is it you're proposing the technique does? No we've seen beings escape the techniques, that doesn't mean Madara was capable of such a thing. And Madara directing Zetsu doesn't show in any way that he could break out of the tech. Except he lifted a finger, he engaged Hashirama, made a big scene about it, and he did endanger himself. So, no.

The point is that the techniques don't prevent movement, as you attempted to argue. There would have been nothing preventing Madara from fighting back if he was in serious danger. Madara directly Black Zetsu shows at the very least he could use chakra, meaning again there isn't any reason he shouldn't have been fighting back if he was in actual danger. There was no danger against Hashirama, as already said. Hashirama couldn't actually kill him like Obito could have. And with the recent revelation in the current chapter, there shouldn't be any doubt anymore. We're specifically told that the insertion of the rods in his pressure points prevented him from molding chakra. That means the only reason he could have done so before, despite the rods already being within him, was because Madara allowed it.

But, he won, which is kind of my point. Two v one is somehow supposed to compare to taking on an entire village with individuals that are as talented and one who was probably better than either of them. A handful is more than two. Madara didn't lay siege to Konoha because he knew he would lose.

Only barely, with the difference decided by luck. It was not, as your argument is implying, a simple win with one sure-fire technique. Considering those two are capable of wiping out entire armies and doing massive damage, yeah. And what individuals were as talented as Onoki and Muu? The only one I can think of was Tobirama. Your argument really doesn't hold much water when we have seen Madara not only take on an entire division along with three kage-level ninjas, five of the strongest ninjas at once, and seen the destructive damage he can bring. There isn't anything to support the idea that Konoha could endure such an assault.

Hashirama had nothing to do with the battle against Obito. Obito was pretty much the focus of four shinobi up until the moments before his defeat. And Madara wasn't untouchable to other shinobi either. I presumed that the plan you were referencing was this plan you've been laying out where Madara would allow himself to get defeated and hope it worked out with Obito. Otherwise, Madara's plan came into effect after he had been restrained. The Rinnegan doesn't control death, firstly, and there isn't anything to suggest that Madara would've been able to manipulate Obito under the circumstances or that the dead body would've been capable of reviving him.

Did I said that he did? And Obito had the focus of the entire Alliance once he became the Juubi. Hashirama was the only one giving any thought to Madara. The plan was to pretend to be defeated and let the Alliance do the heavy work with Obito. The Rinnegan was stated to control death, along with life. That's the seventh path. We already know that Madara could control Obito, and there's been nothing to suggest that there's a limit to what a Path can do.

You're repeating the same thing over and over. Akatsuki is more effective an example than Kushina. And Obito struggled with control of the bijuu, control using a similar means. And Madara's recent comments in the most recent chapter would seem to support my argument, it wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination for him.

Because you keep ignoring it when it's a major factor. Akatsuki didn't employ the chains, so their method doesn't matter in this discussion. Obito never struggled to control the Bijuu when he used the chain, it was the opposite, he took back control with it. Except that's not what is said or shown. It taking longer then expected (still quite fast) is far different from losing control and being unable to do it if focus is lost. Now considering that Madara was still capable of maintaining his hold on them while he extracted the Hachibi and Kyuubi, along with employing Susanoo (like I theorized he could), fighting Gaara, and talking with White Zetsu, your point has been completely disprove.

So a sword is a technique? Is another Susanoo limb a technique? It's a change in form. Susanoo can be altered, we've seen it take different shapes entirely. Forming a blade or a bow is a non-issue, it isn't a technique. Susanoo used seals, Madara used seals, maybe it made the technique more powerful, who knows. Even if Susanoo making seals was necessary for him to pull off the technique, that in no way shows that an advancement in Susanoo provides new techniques. He had to activate his Sharigan to use Susanoo, you've said it yourself.

It's a sword-arrow formed purely out of Enton. It's more then a simple change in form, since it has more then just a visual effect. And when have we seen a Susanoo nonchalantly shape something that was apart of it? That doesn't happen outside of Susanoo advancing. What suggests that it had to be empowered or wasn't as normal? And again, when have we ever seen seals with Susanoo to empower something? Making seals for something denotes being the source of the technique, it's sort of the entire mechanic behind handseals. I'm not sure what your last sentence have to do with this.

What does that image have to do with the numbers Madara faced? You can go back to look at a ton of people behind Gaara at the start of the war, but can't bother to look at the numbers Madara took on.

As I pointed out before, we never get a panoramic view. So unless you're gonna try and claim that all the people Madara was facing were specifically on one side...

And how'd that last attempt work out for him, back then he was even free. The reason to have Madara there was that he was involved. The other two panels are after Madara's revival. And Madara said there was going to be a counterattack because he expected to be revived, he didn't say Sai's seal wasn't working and he didn't say Hashirama's seal was ineffective, which is what the issue is. And the questions you ask support my argument. Madara isn't the type to simply allow himself to be sealed; his counterstroke was Zetsu, he himself couldn't handle it alone.

Barely, due to Obito fighting back. A dead Obito wouldn't be capable of fighting back. Yeah, he was involved, thus the previous mention of him activating it or directing it. No they aren't. Madara didn't revive until the next chapter. He still had his Rinnegan, which he would of lost had he been revived. Madara claiming he was gonna start his counterattack was rebuffed by Hashirama, despite us knowing it was true. Not really. You claimed that Madara got caught for real and couldn't escape, so he basically gave up and accepted it. That in no way fits with the Madara we have been shown, who has on multiple occasions fought against a seal when caught. There is no reason that Madara would just calmly accept being captured and not attempt to break free unless he felt there was no need to. This is even more clear now that we learnt that the rods can prevent an Edo summon from using chakra, meaning that since Hashirama already had the rods in him beforehand, it was only because Madara allowed it that he was even able to use these techniques.

 

[FetherMan]

lol. damn, ridouking. you writing the manga constitution or a book, sh*t.

 

[Impossibility]

The point is that the techniques don't prevent movement, as you attempted to argue. There would have been nothing preventing Madara from fighting back if he was in serious danger. Madara directly Black Zetsu shows at the very least he could use chakra, meaning again there isn't any reason he shouldn't have been fighting back if he was in actual danger. There was no danger against Hashirama, as already said. Hashirama couldn't actually kill him like Obito could have. And with the recent revelation in the current chapter, there shouldn't be any doubt anymore. We're specifically told that the insertion of the rods in his pressure points prevented him from molding chakra. That means the only reason he could have done so before, despite the rods already being within him, was because Madara allowed it.

He wasn't moving, that was the goal and purpose of the technique. Hashiram couldn't kill him, but he could seal him, which for an Edo is pretty much the same thing. After they were activated, yes he was unable to mould chakra, this isn't anything new. However, until such time he was able to do as he pleased.

Only barely, with the difference decided by luck. It was not, as your argument is implying, a simple win with one sure-fire technique. Considering those two are capable of wiping out entire armies and doing massive damage, yeah. And what individuals were as talented as Onoki and Muu? The only one I can think of was Tobirama. Your argument really doesn't hold much water when we have seen Madara not only take on an entire division along with three kage-level ninjas, five of the strongest ninjas at once, and seen the destructive damage he can bring. There isn't anything to support the idea that Konoha could endure such an assault.

Luck? He won because he was better. And not once did I imply that he won with a simple one-trick attack, that one- attack was simply the finale. Tobirama was just one, Hiruzen was supposedly worth the effort, and I doubt everyone else, including the Senju, was useless. And that's an entirely different Madara you're referring to; that's a heavily modified and Edo Madara, another matter entirely.

Did I said that he did? And Obito had the focus of the entire Alliance once he became the Juubi. Hashirama was the only one giving any thought to Madara. The plan was to pretend to be defeated and let the Alliance do the heavy work with Obito. The Rinnegan was stated to control death, along with life. That's the seventh path. We already know that Madara could control Obito, and there's been nothing to suggest that there's a limit to what a Path can do.

Yep, pretty much; I said Hashirama and a host of shinobi were focused on Madara, and you responded saying they didn't focus on him until after Obito's defeat. I don't know how else to take that. And his original plan was to take on Obito himself, so this seems disingenuous. He was trapped, who was he going to be manipulating. Rods on both sides are necessary. Also, how would his death have affected the Rinnegan. If any old corpse could use Rinne Tensei, Madara probably could've just revived himself without Obito's aid.

Because you keep ignoring it when it's a major factor. Akatsuki didn't employ the chains, so their method doesn't matter in this discussion. Obito never struggled to control the Bijuu when he used the chain, it was the opposite, he took back control with it. Except that's not what is said or shown. It taking longer then expected (still quite fast) is far different from losing control and being unable to do it if focus is lost. Now considering that Madara was still capable of maintaining his hold on them while he extracted the Hachibi and Kyuubi, along with employing Susanoo (like I theorized he could), fighting Gaara, and talking with White Zetsu, your point has been completely disprove.

I've not ignored it, I've considered it and put in context. Akatsuki are the only ones to drag out a bijuu from a jin with the Gedo, and surely if someone wielding the Rinnegan and using the Gedo doesn't matter, bringing up Kushina was a complete waste of time. He struggled to keep control, that what I said. And how does any of that disprove my argument? Did I once say that he wouldn't be capable of bringing up Susanoo? You're obviously arguing about something else entirely. The recent chapter supports what I've said from the beginning, that this task would require a monumental effort from Madara.

It's a sword-arrow formed purely out of Enton. It's more then a simple change in form, since it has more then just a visual effect. And when have we seen a Susanoo nonchalantly shape something that was apart of it? That doesn't happen outside of Susanoo advancing. What suggests that it had to be empowered or wasn't as normal? And again, when have we ever seen seals with Susanoo to empower something? Making seals for something denotes being the source of the technique, it's sort of the entire mechanic behind handseals. I'm not sure what your last sentence have to do with this.

And Sasuke can't make Enton cover a blade without Susanoo? It isn't a new ability, it's Enton applied to Susanoo. We've seen Susanoo cover Kurama, we've seen Susanoo from ribs, we've seen Susanoo form various weapons, Susanoo can pretty much take whatever shape it pleases. No, but that doesn't mean that it can't. And once again, even if Susanoo making seals was integral to the process, does that indicate in any way that it's a new ability gained as Susanoo advances, considering that Madara used it in a lesser form of Susanoo. And the last sentence is because you pointed to the Sharingan in his eye as an indicator of it's link to the technique.

As I pointed out before, we never get a panoramic view. So unless you're gonna try and claim that all the people Madara was facing were specifically on one side...

The people he faced, would be the people he actually faced. If they're a mile away, and they aren't engaging him in any way and he isn't engaging them, then he isn't fighting them.

Barely, due to Obito fighting back. A dead Obito wouldn't be capable of fighting back. Yeah, he was involved, thus the previous mention of him activating it or directing it. No they aren't. Madara didn't revive until the next chapter. He still had his Rinnegan, which he would of lost had he been revived. Madara claiming he was gonna start his counterattack was rebuffed by Hashirama, despite us knowing it was true. Not really. You claimed that Madara got caught for real and couldn't escape, so he basically gave up and accepted it. That in no way fits with the Madara we have been shown, who has on multiple occasions fought against a seal when caught. There is no reason that Madara would just calmly accept being captured and not attempt to break free unless he felt there was no need to. This is even more clear now that we learnt that the rods can prevent an Edo summon from using chakra, meaning that since Hashirama already had the rods in him beforehand, it was only because Madara allowed it that he was even able to use these techniques.

But it didn't work out. Involved and activating are two different things entirely. Madara's revival didn't complete until the next chapter, his revival began after Rinne Tensei began, what he qualified as at that point is probably debatable, not an Edo entirely, kind of alive, who knows. Madara's claim became true because of Zetsu's intervention, not because he was capable of breaking out at any moment. I never claimed he gave up, I claimed he was caught, but he was aware that Zetsu could help out and free him. There was no reason for him to allow himself to be restrained. Even if you come up with the specious argument that he did so to avoid Obito's attention, why didn't he break out as soon as Obito was defeated, why did his release come only after the Rinne Tensei?

 

[Rikudou King]

He wasn't moving, that was the goal and purpose of the technique. Hashiram couldn't kill him, but he could seal him, which for an Edo is pretty much the same thing. After they were activated, yes he was unable to mould chakra, this isn't anything new. However, until such time he was able to do as he pleased.

Neither of those techniques prevent the target from moving or fighting back. We have actually witness this. Hashirama couldn't even do that, as we saw. And there is no “activation”. He didn't say “the power of these rods are stopping me”, he say the rods themselves were in his pressure points stopping him.

Luck? He won because he was better. And not once did I imply that he won with a simple one-trick attack, that one- attack was simply the finale. Tobirama was just one, Hiruzen was supposedly worth the effort, and I doubt everyone else, including the Senju, was useless. And that's an entirely different Madara you're referring to; that's a heavily modified and Edo Madara, another matter entirely.

Tricking Madara with a clone seems more like luck to me... Your whole argument is based around the idea that all Hashirama had to do to win was wrap Madara up with one of his techniques, since according to your belief, Madara would simply accept defeat and such. Sarutobi is quite questionable, even after his recent showing. And it has pretty much been shown that the majority of people would be useless against Madara. What are you talking about? We already went over Madara fighting an entire group with just his Sharingan, and Madara had his prefect Susanoo even back then. One swing from that did as much damage as a Bijuu Blast and basically made the Gokages piss themselves.

Yep, pretty much; I said Hashirama and a host of shinobi were focused on Madara, and you responded saying they didn't focus on him until after Obito's defeat. I don't know how else to take that. And his original plan was to take on Obito himself, so this seems disingenuous. He was trapped, who was he going to be manipulating. Rods on both sides are necessary. Also, how would his death have affected the Rinnegan. If any old corpse could use Rinne Tensei, Madara probably could've just revived himself without Obito's aid.

I said that Hashirama was never focused on Obito, he had been focus on Madara the entire time. We were never told the details of his original plan, so it's not disingenuous at all. The only thing we knew for sure was that Madara needed Hashirama's senjutsu, which as we're seeing, is necessary for a separate reason. He wasn't actually trapped, that's the point. And rods on both sides aren't necessary. There isn't anything to support that claim. Nor the idea that it could have only been Obito, especially when we know the first choice had been Nagato. It only became Obito because he had the Rinnegan at that point.

I've not ignored it, I've considered it and put in context. Akatsuki are the only ones to drag out a bijuu from a jin with the Gedo, and surely if someone wielding the Rinnegan and using the Gedo doesn't matter, bringing up Kushina was a complete waste of time. He struggled to keep control, that what I said. And how does any of that disprove my argument? Did I once say that he wouldn't be capable of bringing up Susanoo? You're obviously arguing about something else entirely. The recent chapter supports what I've said from the beginning, that this task would require a monumental effort from Madara.

So the context you placed it in is that the condition of a dying and nearly chakra-less person is equal to the condition of a healthy person, even though the former also showed they were quite different when also healthy? Akatsuki doesn't matter because they were using a different technique, one that used numerous people. We were talking about the chakra chains, Kushina's unique ability that Obito and Madara now use also. Obito never struggled with the chains, which is what we were talking about. This discussion began over your belief that if Madara was to use chakra, to fight against an assault or such, that would break his focus and interrupt the process, or at least grant the Bijuus some kind of reprieve. We now have seen that none of that's true. Sealing the Bijuus while doing other stuff wasn't an issue for him, nor was it some monumental task. He did it all quite easily. The only "issue" was his overestimation of how well he would do. Still, he literally did five different things at the same time without "losing focus" or screwing up.

And Sasuke can't make Enton cover a blade without Susanoo? It isn't a new ability, it's Enton applied to Susanoo. We've seen Susanoo cover Kurama, we've seen Susanoo from ribs, we've seen Susanoo form various weapons, Susanoo can pretty much take whatever shape it pleases. No, but that doesn't mean that it can't. And once again, even if Susanoo making seals was integral to the process, does that indicate in any way that it's a new ability gained as Susanoo advances, considering that Madara used it in a lesser form of Susanoo. And the last sentence is because you pointed to the Sharingan in his eye as an indicator of it's link to the technique.

He's not covering anything, the arrow blade is instantly made out of it automatically, without him having to shape it with his second ability. All those examples have the user purposely transforming or changing it. But in this situation, Sasuke hasn't been shown purposely doing anything. It's automatic, happening even when Sasuke hadn't fully awaken it and it only existed for a moment. Making it quite a leap to believe so, especially without anything to base it on or any other examples. Susanoo itself needing to mold chakra and act does suggest there's some connection. I still don't understand, since I didn't point to the Sharingan at all. I pointed out that even though he already had the Rinnegan active he still activate Susanoo, to counter your comment about it being just a Rinnegan technique. But I'm pretty sure I hadn't mentioned anything about the Sharingan being needed for activation, especially since it has been shown Susanoo can be activated without the doujutsus themselves.

The people he faced, would be the people he actually faced. If they're a mile away, and they aren't engaging him in any way and he isn't engaging them, then he isn't fighting them.

He was in the middle of a huge group, surrounded, but we only saw one direction.

But it didn't work out. Involved and activating are two different things entirely. Madara's revival didn't complete until the next chapter, his revival began after Rinne Tensei began, what he qualified as at that point is probably debatable, not an Edo entirely, kind of alive, who knows. Madara's claim became true because of Zetsu's intervention, not because he was capable of breaking out at any moment. I never claimed he gave up, I claimed he was caught, but he was aware that Zetsu could help out and free him. There was no reason for him to allow himself to be restrained. Even if you come up with the specious argument that he did so to avoid Obito's attention, why didn't he break out as soon as Obito was defeated, why did his release come only after the Rinne Tensei?

It kind of did. They aren't that different, the point still has him conducting events. Given the past showing of both those techniques, there isn't any reason to think that Madara couldn't have broken out, especially when he has the nasty habit of breaking out of other powerful sealing techniques with ease. Madara's claim was true even without that specific intervention. He already had his counterpieces in play, with Black Zetsu being there the entire time and now Spiral Zetsu also arriving on the field around the same time as his revival. Now it's one thing if you don't believe that Madara could have broken out on his own (I do given all that we have seen), but it's clear that he could have broken out at any moment simply by calling upon them to help. As for your question, why would he? Madara has shown numerous times that he likes to screw with people, letting them get their hopes up and then smashing those hopes. He did it with Gaara's division, he did it multiple times with the Gokages (despite "risking" being seal a few times), and he recently did so with the Bijuus (again "risking" being seal). He's shown that just because he's willing to mess around doesn't mean that he can't flat-out finish things if he truly wished it.

 

[Impossibility]

Neither of those techniques prevent the target from moving or fighting back. We have actually witness this. Hashirama couldn't even do that, as we saw. And there is no “activation”. He didn't say “the power of these rods are stopping me”, he say the rods themselves were in his pressure points stopping him.

No, we've seen beings break out of the technique, that's something else. Well, the rods were there before and he was using chakra, so obviously something changed, this is pretty obvious.

Tricking Madara with a clone seems more like luck to me... Your whole argument is based around the idea that all Hashirama had to do to win was wrap Madara up with one of his techniques, since according to your belief, Madara would simply accept defeat and such. Sarutobi is quite questionable, even after his recent showing. And it has pretty much been shown that the majority of people would be useless against Madara. What are you talking about? We already went over Madara fighting an entire group with just his Sharingan, and Madara had his prefect Susanoo even back then. One swing from that did as much damage as a Bijuu Blast and basically made the Gokages piss themselves.

Luck? It was tactics. It was the technique that ended it, yes. You keep on attempting to rewrite what I've posted, have I ever said that 'Madara would simply accept defeat and such', anywhere. Feel free to continue on this pointless claim, there isn't anything to suggest that Madara at the time had the ability to solo Konoha, or even come close. You pointed to battling the Kages, he used the Rinnegan and Mokuton against them.

I said that Hashirama was never focused on Obito, he had been focus on Madara the entire time. We were never told the details of his original plan, so it's not disingenuous at all. The only thing we knew for sure was that Madara needed Hashirama's senjutsu, which as we're seeing, is necessary for a separate reason. He wasn't actually trapped, that's the point. And rods on both sides aren't necessary. There isn't anything to support that claim. Nor the idea that it could have only been Obito, especially when we know the first choice had been Nagato. It only became Obito because he had the Rinnegan at that point.

That's what you're saying now, not how you responded to my comment earlier. He told us he thought he was going to have to weaken Obito himself, so we have an idea. And you haven't shown anything to show that he wasn't trapped. Yes, but you're arguing that a dead Obito would've been just as good, if a dead path could be used to revive him he would've just pierced a dead body ling around and revived himself, Obito wouldn't have been necessary.

So the context you placed it in is that the condition of a dying and nearly chakra-less person is equal to the condition of a healthy person, even though the former also showed they were quite different when also healthy? Akatsuki doesn't matter because they were using a different technique, one that used numerous people. We were talking about the chakra chains, Kushina's unique ability that Obito and Madara now use also. Obito never struggled with the chains, which is what we were talking about. This discussion began over your belief that if Madara was to use chakra, to fight against an assault or such, that would break his focus and interrupt the process, or at least grant the Bijuus some kind of reprieve. We now have seen that none of that's true. Sealing the Bijuus while doing other stuff wasn't an issue for him, nor was it some monumental task. He did it all quite easily. The only "issue" was his overestimation of how well he would do. Still, he literally did five different things at the same time without "losing focus" or screwing up.

No, that's not what I said. I said she struggle with it, and even with her state, it shows that it isn't an effortless feat. Kushina was utilising a different technique, yet you brought her up, her chains although they are similar in appearance are different techniques, we know that. No, my belief was that if he had to face off against multiple opponents and utilise significant chakra and focus to face them it would slow down and likely weaken his pull on the bijuus; that has been my argument from the start. And the argument that he did it quite easily when he himself states otherwise is a waste of time.

He's not covering anything, the arrow blade is instantly made out of it automatically, without him having to shape it with his second ability. All those examples have the user purposely transforming or changing it. But in this situation, Sasuke hasn't been shown purposely doing anything. It's automatic, happening even when Sasuke hadn't fully awaken it and it only existed for a moment. Making it quite a leap to believe so, especially without anything to base it on or any other examples. Susanoo itself needing to mold chakra and act does suggest there's some connection. I still don't understand, since I didn't point to the Sharingan at all. I pointed out that even though he already had the Rinnegan active he still activate Susanoo, to counter your comment about it being just a Rinnegan technique. But I'm pretty sure I hadn't mentioned anything about the Sharingan being needed for activation, especially since it has been shown Susanoo can be activated without the doujutsus themselves.

It's Enton, what are you not getting about that? It's not a new ability. We've seen Ento whipped out over just the ribs, Sasuke uses Enton freely with his Susanoo. And I pointed out that the Sharingan being there was necessary for Susanoo, not necessarily for the technique.

He was in the middle of a huge group, surrounded, but we only saw one direction.

He was only fighting in that direction because everyone was in front of him when the battle commenced.

It kind of did. They aren't that different, the point still has him conducting events. Given the past showing of both those techniques, there isn't any reason to think that Madara couldn't have broken out, especially when he has the nasty habit of breaking out of other powerful sealing techniques with ease. Madara's claim was true even without that specific intervention. He already had his counterpieces in play, with Black Zetsu being there the entire time and now Spiral Zetsu also arriving on the field around the same time as his revival. Now it's one thing if you don't believe that Madara could have broken out on his own (I do given all that we have seen), but it's clear that he could have broken out at any moment simply by calling upon them to help. As for your question, why would he? Madara has shown numerous times that he likes to screw with people, letting them get their hopes up and then smashing those hopes. He did it with Gaara's division, he did it multiple times with the Gokages (despite "risking" being seal a few times), and he recently did so with the Bijuus (again "risking" being seal). He's shown that just because he's willing to mess around doesn't mean that he can't flat-out finish things if he truly wished it.

So, Madara was revived about fifty chapters ago? They're very different. You're highlighting Madara's role when the manga shows that Zetsu was the one utilising Obito's body and eyes and creating the seal. And what do those other seals have to do with Hashirama's, and I don't know where you come up with 'a habit of breaking out of other powerful sealing techniques with ease'. And if he would've called on them it would've been no different from what he did, relying on others to get him out of his predicament because he was unable to do it alone. Madara has also shown that he wanted an actual fight with Hashirama, he's also never been at much self-inflicted risk despite your claim that he risked being sealed a few times, and he's also gotten himself out of his own problems rather than getting a helping hand from someone else.

 

[Rikudou King]

No, we've seen beings break out of the technique, that's something else. Well, the rods were there before and he was using chakra, so obviously something changed, this is pretty obvious.

Uh? Neither the Wooden Dragon or the torii seal are techniques that prevent movement or cancel out any ability to fight back against them. We have seen both of those techniques in action before. If they had such abilities, then the current situation would have been long over. As said, Madara allowed Hashirama to continue. It's the only explanation.

Luck? It was tactics. It was the technique that ended it, yes. You keep on attempting to rewrite what I've posted, have I ever said that 'Madara would simply accept defeat and such', anywhere. Feel free to continue on this pointless claim, there isn't anything to suggest that Madara at the time had the ability to solo Konoha, or even come close. You pointed to battling the Kages, he used the Rinnegan and Mokuton against them.

It was liuck that they had fought so long that Madara had exhausted his chakra to the point where he couldn't even use his Sharingan, thus removing the one means that would have completely countered Hashirama's trick. There isn't anything? Really, because I think you would be hard press to name a single way that Konoha could have countered this. I find it strange why you would mention the Rinnegan and Mokuton when I specifically called out his prefect Susanoo in my statement. It's not as if I was being vague about what I was referring to when I spoke about one swing doing as much damage as a Bijuu or the Gokages getting terrified.

That's what you're saying now, not how you responded to my comment earlier. He told us he thought he was going to have to weaken Obito himself, so we have an idea. And you haven't shown anything to show that he wasn't trapped. Yes, but you're arguing that a dead Obito would've been just as good, if a dead path could be used to revive him he would've just pierced a dead body ling around and revived himself, Obito wouldn't have been necessary.

You were the one who first mentioned Hashirama and I corrected you. All Madara said was that before the 15 minutes were up, he would use Hashirama's senjutsu to stop and take Obito's place. That is basically what he has done. I showed that Madara's actions and appearance were that of a person allowing themselves to be held, because they had a plan in the works. What are you talking about? Piercing any one dead body clearly wouldn't have worked because said dead body would have needed the Rinnegan first.

No, that's not what I said. I said she struggle with it, and even with her state, it shows that it isn't an effortless feat. Kushina was utilising a different technique, yet you brought her up, her chains although they are similar in appearance are different techniques, we know that. No, my belief was that if he had to face off against multiple opponents and utilise significant chakra and focus to face them it would slow down and likely weaken his pull on the bijuus; that has been my argument from the start. And the argument that he did it quite easily when he himself states otherwise is a waste of time.

But she didn't struggle with it. She only ran into trouble when she got closer to death, before that point she had no trouble binding the Kyuubi despite being nearly out of chakra and dying. What? Where was it shown that their chains are different? By all accounts, their chains are all the same ability. We saw him facing off against multiple opponents and utilizing quite a bit of chakra (summoning, extraction, and Susanoo) without being slowed down or weakened. And what? Where did Madara state otherwise? All we were told was that he expected to do better, nothing about it being hard or anything. It's even outright mentioned that he did it faster then Obito.

It's Enton, what are you not getting about that? It's not a new ability. We've seen Ento whipped out over just the ribs, Sasuke uses Enton freely with his Susanoo. And I pointed out that the Sharingan being there was necessary for Susanoo, not necessarily for the technique.

What are you not getting about it automatically appearing? Your mention of those other times were all purposely done by Sasuke using another ability, without any flames being there beforehand, not like his complete Susanoo with the flames preprepared without him first generating them. Well why didn't you say that, since I knew I hadn't mentioned anything about the Shaingan previously.

He was only fighting in that direction because everyone was in front of him when the battle commenced.

He ran right into the middle of the mass. They would not have been all in front of him, they would have been around him.

So, Madara was revived about fifty chapters ago? They're very different. You're highlighting Madara's role when the manga shows that Zetsu was the one utilising Obito's body and eyes and creating the seal. And what do those other seals have to do with Hashirama's, and I don't know where you come up with 'a habit of breaking out of other powerful sealing techniques with ease'. And if he would've called on them it would've been no different from what he did, relying on others to get him out of his predicament because he was unable to do it alone. Madara has also shown that he wanted an actual fight with Hashirama, he's also never been at much self-inflicted risk despite your claim that he risked being sealed a few times, and he's also gotten himself out of his own problems rather than getting a helping hand from someone else.

He controlled Obito well enough to come right up to it, only failing at the very end. The manga shows Madara doing something with his own Rinnegan, with some connection of what was going on with Black Zetsu. They show a pattern of a habit and what do you mean you don't know? Every time someone got close to sealing Madara, he used Susanoo to break out. Like I mentioned, he did so several times when the Gokages had gotten close and he did it again when the Ichibi nearly sealed him. Seeing as that has been the whole argument since several chapters ago, what exactly is the issue? I've been saying from the beginning that he had never been in real trouble because he had Black Zetsu already on hand. What exactly did you think I kept bring up the fact that he had called Black Zetsu there long beforehand was about? Even when he fought Hashirama, he was shown messing around, even telling a story and revealing his plans for no reason. Not sure how you can claim he was never at risk before yet consider him at risk this time. And that last part isn't exactly that, since as previously mentioned, the manga does quite the job of implying Madara had a direct hand in the resurrection.

 

[Impossibility]

Uh? Neither the Wooden Dragon or the torii seal are techniques that prevent movement or cancel out any ability to fight back against them. We have seen both of those techniques in action before. If they had such abilities, then the current situation would have been long over. As said, Madara allowed Hashirama to continue. It's the only explanation.

Just because a technique wasn't successful against one opponent doesn't mean that it's useless against another. The seal was meant to stop him free movement, and by every account, it did just that. The only reasonable explanation is that what happened was what happened.

It was liuck that they had fought so long that Madara had exhausted his chakra to the point where he couldn't even use his Sharingan, thus removing the one means that would have completely countered Hashirama's trick. There isn't anything? Really, because I think you would be hard press to name a single way that Konoha could have countered this. I find it strange why you would mention the Rinnegan and Mokuton when I specifically called out his prefect Susanoo in my statement. It's not as if I was being vague about what I was referring to when I spoke about one swing doing as much damage as a Bijuu or the Gokages getting terrified.

Luck. It wasn't luck that allowed Hashirama to outlast him, and it wasn't luck that conceived his tactics to defeat Madara. And the Kages managed to survive it, so I don't see why there wouldn't be shinobi in Konoha capable of the same. I called them out because it was those techniques that brought the Kages to such a state in the first place, such techniques that allowed him to handle some of the techniques lobbed at him, including Oonoki's Jinton. Madara's Sharingan alone didn't defeat the Kages.

You were the one who first mentioned Hashirama and I corrected you. All Madara said was that before the 15 minutes were up, he would use Hashirama's senjutsu to stop and take Obito's place. That is basically what he has done. I showed that Madara's actions and appearance were that of a person allowing themselves to be held, because they had a plan in the works. What are you talking about? Piercing any one dead body clearly wouldn't have worked because said dead body would have needed the Rinnegan first.

He thanks Naruto for defeating Obito because it saved him from having to do it himself, indicating that he thought that he would have to complete the task himself. He didn't expect them to be capable of defeating Obito. Your own link shows that Madara thought he was planning on stopping Obito. He didn't allow himself to be held, he was being held, but simply had a means through Zetsu to escape. There isn't a single reason for Madara to have allowed himself to be restrained. Putting a Rinnegan into a dead body is obviously an easy feat, have we seen a path without one? Obito managed to throw a few into six jins with apparently little effort, it would've undoubtedly been easier than this route if it was an option.

But she didn't struggle with it. She only ran into trouble when she got closer to death, before that point she had no trouble binding the Kyuubi despite being nearly out of chakra and dying. What? Where was it shown that their chains are different? By all accounts, their chains are all the same ability. We saw him facing off against multiple opponents and utilizing quite a bit of chakra (summoning, extraction, and Susanoo) without being slowed down or weakened. And what? Where did Madara state otherwise? All we were told was that he expected to do better, nothing about it being hard or anything. It's even outright mentioned that he did it faster then Obito.

Did or did not the Kyuubi manage to get some freedom and attack? And why is it considered a different technique, because it's different. Kushina's were simply chains moulded with her special chakra, Madara utilises chains that are a Rinnegan technique of the Outer Path related to the Gedo Mazo. The techniques even have different names. They're simply similar in their form and appearance; that is they both utilise chains. Who are these multiple opponents who he utilised quite a bit of chakra against while attempting to seal the bijuu. He says it was all he could do at his level, and being better than Obito doesn't mean much. Obito took in bijuus that already had rods in them, and only six.

What are you not getting about it automatically appearing? Your mention of those other times were all purposely done by Sasuke using another ability, without any flames being there beforehand, not like his complete Susanoo with the flames preprepared without him first generating them. Well why didn't you say that, since I knew I hadn't mentioned anything about the Shaingan previously.

It is Enton. And you did mention the Sharingan previously, my comment was almost a repeat of a qualification you'd made about its use.

He ran right into the middle of the mass. They would not have been all in front of him, they would have been around him.

This is getting a lot like when you claimed that the Sound and Sand took on 15000 Konoha shinbobi during the invasion. If we don't see them, there isn't anything showing he fought them, and we have a rather thorough accounting of who he actually took on, why try to make up numbers?

He controlled Obito well enough to come right up to it, only failing at the very end. The manga shows Madara doing something with his own Rinnegan, with some connection of what was going on with Black Zetsu. They show a pattern of a habit and what do you mean you don't know? Every time someone got close to sealing Madara, he used Susanoo to break out. Like I mentioned, he did so several times when the Gokages had gotten close and he did it again when the Ichibi nearly sealed him. Seeing as that has been the whole argument since several chapters ago, what exactly is the issue? I've been saying from the beginning that he had never been in real trouble because he had Black Zetsu already on hand. What exactly did you think I kept bring up the fact that he had called Black Zetsu there long beforehand was about? Even when he fought Hashirama, he was shown messing around, even telling a story and revealing his plans for no reason. Not sure how you can claim he was never at risk before yet consider him at risk this time. And that last part isn't exactly that, since as previously mentioned, the manga does quite the job of implying Madara had a direct hand in the resurrection.

But, he failed, which was my point. Doing something with his own Rinnegan? By that you mean they show his face and since the Rinnegan are pretty glaring on his face they stuck out. I don't dispute that he has some connection with Black Zetsu, I dispute that he was the primary in the execution of that technique. I don't know how one comes to that conclusion when Zetsu had the eyes, the body of Obito, and the handseals. And how many times did this happen, and how many of these tech compare to Hashirama's? The whole argument, at least this component, which in itself is far removed from my original comment, is whether or not Madara was capable of breaking out on his own without aid. He was having a conversation, shinobi in this manga have that awful habit. Even if Madara had a hand in the resurrection, he didn't do it alone. That has been my argument from the start; that without Zetsu, and even with Zetsu there was a significant chance that, Madara would've been screwed.