Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2014] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Kaizou 10]

Dude, it doesn't matter if Shaman King and Nura didn't reach Bleach's level, they were still quite popular. Yes, Bleach will get more leeway from Jump than them, but there is a certain point where Bleach's prior success won't matter anymore. Bleach has also been running for much longer than both Nura and Shaman King and so that certain point is quickly approaching if it hasn't already..

Then, I think you should actually bring examples for series that happened like Bleach (selling like 500k but had low ranking). There really aren't much examples like that.

Plus, do you actually think the young series like Nisekoi, Haikyuu, Saiki, WT, and SC(S) are actually more popular than Bleach based on just ranking. I think this part is also bias.

And there's no point in bringing up Stone Ocean as it's an entirely separate matter. The JoJo franchise had been running in Jump for forever, it was probably seen as a Kochikame or HxH type of deal where the rankings didn't matter. But eventually they did end up moving the JoJo franchise to another Shueisha magazine, probably due to Araki's age, but I'd suggest its popularity in the magazine also had something to do with it.

I don't think so. That happened like more than 10 years ago, and its franchise isn't even big like today. Hack, from that time, it is like in same situation the current Bleach, and it really is hard to say that Stone Ocean's situation is separate from Bleach. You shouldn't think the current time's standard.

You need to set your biases aside and realize that Bleach is not immune from cancellation.

I belive you were saying that like last year as well. You said that Bleach going to end by 2013, and now it already in 2014. If Bleach didn't going to end by 2014, then are you going to argue again that it'll end by 2015?

 

[WyldViolet]

Right, this is what I wanted to avoid with this discussion.
You telling me THIS would make a little sense, even though you said it when all I was trying to make a generalized idea of how people usually talk. -_-

However, Kaizou he is the last person who would be biased to Bleach. He follows every series in WSJ and I don't think he would be particularly affected if Bleach was cancelled since he isn't a die hard fan.

What he is stating isn't from his love for Bleach, it's just logical assumption that Bleach is more valuable than what you give it credit for. Nura and Shaman King were not even close to what Bleach was.

If there can be exceptions like for JoJo and for HxH, then there certainly can be an exception for Bleach. It's as simple and plain as that. However many seem to think Bleach won't be an exception because of how unbiased they are towards it.

But Bleach never has an never will be as popular or hold the cultural relevancy that JoJo and HxH have.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Just because it can continue doesn't mean it should.
For a current example look at Yamada and the Seven Witches in WSM. It should have ended recently, yet for some inexplicable reason the mangaka has drawn out the story (like she also did for Yankee) and it just feels forced and unneeded when a perfect ending spot was right there for her.

You should bring examples from sports series, not different genre. The story flow is completely different from it.

Plus, I'm just saying the possibility; I'm not saying that Kuroko will not going to end with the current match.

 

[WyldViolet]

Then, I think you should actually bring examples for series that happened like Bleach (selling like 500k but had low ranking). There really aren't much examples like that.

Plus, do you actually think the young series like Nisekoi, Haikyuu, Saiki, WT, and SC(S) are actually more popular than Bleach based on just ranking. I think this part is also bias.



I don't think so. That happened like more than 10 years ago, and its franchise isn't even big like today. Hack, from that time, it is like in same situation the current Bleach, and it really is hard to say that Stone Ocean's situation is separate from Bleach. You shouldn't think the current time's standard.



I belive you were saying that like last year as well. You said that Bleach going to end by 2013, and now it already in 2014. If Bleach didn't going to end by 2014, then are you going to argue again that it'll end by 2015?

I suggested it would end late 2013/early 2014.
There's no way it will last till the end of 2014 though.

 

[Kaizou 10]

But Bleach never has an never will be as popular or hold the cultural relevancy that JoJo and HxH have.

It was. Plus, Jojo didn't really bring cultural relevancy; it become more like created really strong small number of fandoms, not as big as HxH or One Piece. Jojo just got attention recently; I think you don't really know about Jojo.

 

[WyldViolet]

You should bring examples from sports series, not different genre. The story flow is completely different from it.

Plus, I'm just saying the possibility; I'm not saying that Kuroko will not going to end with the current match.

Okay fine, Eyeshield 21.

 

[Kaizou 10]

I suggested it would end late 2013/early 2014.
There's no way it will last till the end of 2014 though.

Well, did you think Bleach's story has gotten faster now? Or are you making your suggestion just based on the ranking?

 

[WyldViolet]

It was. Plus, Jojo didn't really bring cultural relevancy; it become more like created really strong small number of fandoms, not as big as HxH or One Piece. Jojo just got attention recently; I think you don't really know about Jojo.

No it wasn't, Bleach sold well and was quite popular for a time, but it's never been at the same level as One Piece, Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, Dragon Ball, or other massive Jump successes.
Also, JoJo has always had a large niche fanbase in Japan.
Yes, it had a massive resurgence in popularity with the 2012 anime, but JoJo had always had a decent fanbase behind it. Especially during part 3/4.
It's also ironic that you are telling me that I don't know about something.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Okay fine, Eyeshield 21.

The small arc is different from the big arc. I'm talking about possibility which the characters start their new high school years, like Yowamushi Pedal and Ahiru no Sora.

 

[WyldViolet]

Well, did you think Bleach's story has gotten faster now? Or are you making your suggestion just based on the ranking?

Yes, Bleach's story has gotten much faster. Did you even read SharkBait's posts a few pages ago?

 

[Kaizou 10]

No it wasn't, Bleach sold well and was quite popular for a time, but it's never been at the same level as One Piece, Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, Dragon Ball, or other massive Jump successes.

I know Bleach wasn't as big as those titles, but it still has brought cultural relevance, bigger than both Kuroko and Magi. AND before the decline of popuarlity, Bleach (along with One Piece and Naruto) was able to compare with 90s Big 3 and gets lots of media attention back then. This shows that Bleach did had enormous amount of popularity before.

Also, JoJo has always had a large niche fanbase in Japan. Yes, it had a massive resurgence in popularity with the 2012 anime, but JoJo had always had a decent fanbase behind it. Especially during part 3/4.

You also have to know that Jojo's popularity has decreased since part 5 like what happened to Bleach.

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Yes, Bleach's story has gotten much faster. Did you even read SharkBait's posts a few pages ago?

Is it? I don't really see anything go faster. Do you consider arrival of Rukia and Renji as fast pace? I don't see anywhere this part as fast.

Plus, they still have lots of enemies to fight (they only beat small amount of them); do you expect there going to be some kind of big skip on next week?

 

[xi0]

I know Bleach wasn't as big as those titles, but it still has brought cultural relevance, bigger than both Kuroko and Magi. AND before the decline of popuarlity, Bleach (along with One Piece and Naruto) was able to compare with 90s Big 3 and gets lots of media attention back then. This shows that Bleach did had enormous amount of popularity before.

Yeah it did, past tense. Sales aren't the most reliable gauge of popularity.

 

[WyldViolet]

I know Bleach wasn't as big as those titles, but it still has brought cultural relevance, bigger than both Kuroko and Magi. AND before the decline of popuarlity, Bleach (along with One Piece and Naruto) was able to compare with 90s Big 3 and gets lots of media attention back then. This shows that Bleach did had enormous amount of popularity before.



You also have to know that Jojo's popularity has decreased since part 5 like what happened to Bleach.

Bleach has more right now than Kuroko because of how long its been running. Kuroko might easily overtake Bleach though if it doesn't end up ending and retains its fanbase.

Also, why mention Magi? It's a Weekly Shonen Sunday series.

And yes, JoJo's magazine popularity did decrease. It's also not in Jump anymore either.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Yeah it did, past tense. Sales aren't the most reliable gauge of popularity.

I'm not only talking about the sales.

It had enormous amount of popularity back then, like many media attention.

My point is that Jump didn't really had any examples like the series that have high tank sale (like at least 500k; now I'm talking about sales), but had low ranking.

 

[101nemesis]

Yes, Bleach's story has gotten much faster. Did you even read SharkBait's posts a few pages ago?

From that I can assume you don't follow Bleach?

Then, lemme enlighten you by saying the pacing hasn't gotten faster. If anything, it's gotten even slower. At least after the hiatus, Kubo put 3 battles going on side by side. But ever since then it's been one battle at a time. It took 6 chapters to finish those 3 battles off simultaneously. However, each individual battle after that lasted for at least 3 - 4 chapters. And even now, there are about 14 sternritters left before we get to the big boss and his right arm. So no, it hasn't been going fast. It got slower. Kubo is stretching it as much as he can. This new chapter had nothing in it. It would count as probably 5 minutes in an anime. That is how slow Kubo is taking it.

Yeah it did, past tense. Sales aren't the most reliable gauge of popularity.

Yup. Exactly like JoJo. But people assume its still popular because of its decent sales these days. The same can be said about Bleach.

 

[WyldViolet]

I'm not only talking about the sales.

It had enormous amount of popularity back then, like many media attention.

My point is that Jump didn't really had any examples like the series that have high tank sale (like at least 500k; now I'm talking about sales), but had low ranking.

Yes, Bleach is an anomaly with its very high tank sales but low magazine rankings.
But its sales numbers don't matter as much as you think they do.
Yes, Shaman King, Nura, and Medaka Box didn't sell as well as Bleach, but they still sold well and got axed.
The fans of those series all tried claiming there was no way they'd be axed despite their low rankings because of their high sales. But alas, they were all still axed.
Bleach is in the same boat. Yes, it sell a couple hundred thousand more volumes, but at the end of the day it still isn't popular in the magazine and Jump has other series they could promote instead.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Also, why mention Magi? It's a Weekly Shonen Sunday series.

I'm just using Magi as one of series that got popularity on recent years. I didn't use Magi as anything like the source for WSJ's ranking.

And yes, JoJo's magazine popularity did decrease. It's also not in Jump anymore either.

I think you don't understand, part 5 and 6 were serialized in Shounen Jump and those are time when Jojo's popularity got decreased like the current Bleach.

I think you are keep confusing that I'm talking within the current standard.

 

[WyldViolet]

From that I can assume you don't follow Bleach?

Then, lemme enlighten you by saying the pacing hasn't gotten faster. If anything, it's gotten even slower. At least after the hiatus, Kubo put 3 battles going on side by side. But ever since then it's been one battle at a time. It took 6 chapters to finish those 3 battles off simultaneously. However, each individual battle after that lasted for at least 3 - 4 chapters. And even now, there are about 14 sternritters left before we get to the big boss and his right arm. So no, it hasn't been going fast. It got slower. Kubo is stretching it as much as he can. This new chapter had nothing in it. It would count as probably 5 minutes in an anime. That is how slow Kubo is taking it.


Yup. Exactly like JoJo. But people assume its still popular because of its decent sales these days. The same can be said about Bleach.

I'm going to go ahead and repost this for you.

Remember though that this is Jump. A story doesn't necessarily get to take its time make everything clean if Jump wants it rushed to an ending.
They probably gave Kubo a set date like Takei, and if Kubo decides to continue lollygagging then they will just axe it without an ending like they did Shaman King.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------

I'm just using Magi as one of series that got popularity on recent years. I didn't use Magi as anything like the source for WSJ's ranking.



I think you don't understand, part 5 and 6 were serialized in Shounen Jump and those are time when Jojo's popularity got decreased like the current Bleach.

I think you are keep confusing that I'm talking within the current standard.

Dude, yes, JoJo declined in Magazine popularity.
It JoJo still running in Weekly Shonen Jump?
No it is not.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Yes, Shaman King, Nura, and Medaka Box didn't sell as well as Bleach, but they still sold well and got axed.
The fans of those series all tried claiming there was no way they'd be axed despite their low rankings because of their high sales. But alas, they were all still axed.
Bleach is in the same boat. Yes, it sell a couple hundred thousand more volumes, but at the end of the day it still isn't popular in the magazine and Jump has other series they could promote instead.

Just use the examples that had same popularity as Bleach; why are you keep using series that are not in Bleach's popularity as example?

I'm trying to argue by Bleach's current popularity standard, and you keep only bringing up series that are not as popular as Bleach.

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------

Dude, yes, JoJo declined in Magazine popularity.
It JoJo still running in Weekly Shonen Jump?
No it is not.

I'm talking about time when part 5 and 6 were serialized in Shounen Jump; I'm using that to compare with Bleach.

As I said before, I'm not talking about CURRENT Jojo's popularity. I know Jojo isn't serializing Shounen Jump anymore, so I'm not using part 7 and 8 for explaining Bleach's situation.

 

[WyldViolet]

Just use the examples that had same popularity as Bleach; why are you keep using series that are not in Bleach's popularity as example?

I'm trying to argue by Bleach's current popularity standard, and you keep only bringing up series that are not as popular as Bleach.

...Did you not even read my post? I'm telling you that just because Bleach is more popular than the series mentioned doesn't change the fact that they were all series that sold well but were axed nonetheless. I even clearly talked about Bleach having higher sales and why that doesn't necessarily matter.

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

I'm talking about time when part 5 and 6 were serialized in Shounen Jump; I'm using that to compare with Bleach.

As I said before, I'm not talking about CURRENT Jojo's popularity. I know Jojo isn't serializing Shounen Jump anymore, so I'm not using part 7 and 8 for explaining Bleach's situation.

YES, 5 AND 6 WERE IN JUMP AND HAD DWINDLING POPULARITY!
I clearly mentioned earlier that one of the reasons JoJo probably moved magazines IS BECAUSE OF MAGAZINE POPULARITY!