Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

But is it worth to risk your humanity and succumbing to authority of power by a solution that's not only temporary, but prone to being a miscalculated hope in the sense that it would even happen?

Risking your humanity? Please, that isn't even in question here. Your solution of leaving the Biju on the planet is an even bigger risk and is also a miscalculation. Killing them shouldn't be an option given all the powers at work, but if they are killed at least you know for a sure fact they can't harm anyone and no one can harm them.

Well, I wouldn't go that deep. Even if that peace is superficial on the surface, it is still there to the point in which lives aren't lost in wars. People killing one another inside a country is another discussion, related to their own sanity, desperation, bankruptcy etc.

It still shows that for there to be true peace, you need ALL people to act like Naruto is, and that is frankly impossible.

They're not people, but they have soul, mind and conscious as people which qualifies them as being comparable to people. Not only comparable but even better than some because not anyone has soul or basic humanity. I agree it was a mistake, but you have to accept the consequences of your actions. They're beings with whom you can relate so you have to treat them as you would treat another human being.

A cow has a mind, conscious and a presumably a soul. Do you equate killing them because I want to eat wrong just because I could eat something else instead of killing the cow?

I can relate to Madara, doesn't mean he shouldn't be dead. He has tragic past, I can relate to that. Doesn't mean he shouldn't die. The Biju have a tragic past too, but they also killed people despite knowing it was wrong. Shukaku tortured a child in Gaara. Yet we are suppose to forgive these things right? Forgiveness doesn't mean they should be allowed to walk the earth as free beings, especially when their existance is a threat to humanity.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

Risking your humanity? Please, that isn't even in question here. Your solution of leaving the Biju on the planet is an even bigger risk and is also a miscalculation. Killing them shouldn't be an option given all the powers at work, but if they are killed at least you know for a sure fact they can't harm anyone and no one can harm them.


It still shows that for there to be true peace, you need ALL people to act like Naruto is, and that is frankly impossible.


A cow has a mind, conscious and a presumably a soul. Do you equate killing them because I want to eat wrong just because I could eat something else instead of killing the cow?

I can relate to Madara, doesn't mean he shouldn't be dead. He has tragic past, I can relate to that. Doesn't mean he shouldn't die. The Biju have a tragic past too, but they also killed people despite knowing it was wrong. Shukaku tortured a child in Gaara. Yet we are suppose to forgive these things right? Forgiveness doesn't mean they should be allowed to walk the earth as free beings, especially when their existance is a threat to humanity.

But there really is no risk if the humanity would act the same if they didn't exist. They would just find another weapon or means to cause destruction. That last paragraph doesn't make sense. You bring them harm when you kill them.

Well, a peace from a fiction, yeah. But I agree, such a peace is impossible.

Sure, it does, but can a cow show you compassion, intelligence, empathy? No. The Bijuu are people in the form of monsters.

Madara sure as hell had many opportunities to turn his tide and become a normal sane person. He simply refused to do so. The Bijuu themselves were tortured as they were used as weapons and they simply lost all hopes for humanity to the point it was hard to believe there was someone similar to Hagoromo. Sasuke was a huge threat to humanity, but he will be forgiven after this. Is that not the same as with Bijuu?

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

But there really is no risk if the humanity would act the same if they didn't exist. They would just find another weapon or means to cause destruction. That last paragraph doesn't make sense. You bring them harm when you kill them.

I'm sure there are painless ways of killing things. This is Naruto, where jutsu's can basically do anything.

And it doesn't matter that humanity can still find other means to fight or other means to cause for destruction. The point is that the Biju have been at the forefront of much of the conflict in the Narutoverse, and then are also the chief weapon used when waging wars and conflicts.

Sure, it does, but can a cow show you compassion, intelligence, empathy? No. The Bijuu are people in the form of monsters.

Lol now you are weighing lives based on what they can and can't do. You are walking a very thin line there. Facts are facts. They are not of this world, they are super weapons, and they have in the past caused problems by themselves and then at the hands of humans. The reasons for getting rid of them outweigh and outnumbered the reason for keeping them around which is "Hey they are semi-human, they deserve a chance to live". No, they don't. They weren't even supposed to be alive in the first place. You don't have to live with your mistakes if there is a way to correct them, which as I said, would hopefully be peaceful exile.

Madara sure as hell had many opportunities to turn his tide and become a normal sane person. He simply refused to do so. The Bijuu themselves were tortured as they were used as weapons and they simply lost all hopes for humanity to the point it was hard to believe there was someone similar to Hagoromo. Sasuke was a huge threat to humanity, but he will be forgiven after this. Is that not the same as with Bijuu?

Madara did change only to be stabbed in the back by Tobirama proving that he changed for no reason.

And yes, Sasuke should be punished, he should be forgiven, but he still needs to be punished. He is a war criminal and murder, not to mention a traitor. I don't give a shit all the good him, Obito, Orochimaru and Kabuto have done, they should all be killed. Allowing people to get away scot free from serious crimes sets an awful precedent and basically says "hey it's ok to murder people so long as you apologize and realize you were wrong". And let's not get into imprisonment. I for one think all 1st degree murders should be killed. If you want to get into the merits of that discussion we can as well lol.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

I don't think you know what the word ignorant means since you didn't understand a single word from my posts. You're repeating yourself too much and evading my arguments without any reaction to it. It's boring and not challenging. Not only that, but you contradict your own self in your sentences and end up using my arguments but not even noticing it, which is fucking funny. Anyone who thinks killing and morals can go in the same box didn't take enough ethics classes or their upbringing was at some point declining. The debate is over for me.

I know what it means, and I do understand what you're saying. You're saying you prefer to sacrifice the lives of hundreds of thousands of people just to save seven lives that can regenerate. Then you further claim that killing the bijuu won't lead to peace (you fail to explain sufficiently how), not permanent peace anyway when Madara putting everyone in genjutsu if he succeed is no better. What argument have I evaded? Maybe I evaded it because I did repeat and did not feel like repeating again. Nor do I remember contradicting myself, other than saying I'd support moving the bijuu to a safe location over killing them or stopping them from being killed and doing nothing to protect them.

Contradiction. You're the one saying it's more moralistic to keep the bijuu alive or near the enemy at the expense of countless of others' lives. You're also saying it's more moralistic to risk the bijuu losing their identities and becoming the Juubi again against the will. I don't think you know what morals or ethics are.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

I'm sure there are painless ways of killing things. This is Naruto, where jutsu's can basically do anything.

And it doesn't matter that humanity can still find other means to fight or other means to cause for destruction. The point is that the Biju have been at the forefront of much of the conflict in the Narutoverse, and then are also the chief weapon used when waging wars and conflicts.


Lol now you are weighing lives based on what they can and can't do. You are walking a very thin line there. Facts are facts. They are not of this world, they are super weapons, and they have in the past caused problems by themselves and then at the hands of humans. The reasons for getting rid of them outweigh and outnumbered the reason for keeping them around which is "Hey they are semi-human, they deserve a chance to live". No, they don't. They weren't even supposed to be alive in the first place. You don't have to live with your mistakes if there is a way to correct them, which as I said, would hopefully be peaceful exile.



Madara did change only to be stabbed in the back by Tobirama proving that he changed for no reason.

And yes, Sasuke should be punished, he should be forgiven, but he still needs to be punished. He is a war criminal and murder, not to mention a traitor. I don't give a shit all the good him, Obito, Orochimaru and Kabuto have done, they should all be killed. Allowing people to get away scot free from serious crimes sets an awful precedent and basically says "hey it's ok to murder people so long as you apologize and realize you were wrong". And let's not get into imprisonment. I for one think all 1st degree murders should be killed. If you want to get into the merits of that discussion we can as well lol.

Lol, painless killing doesn't take away the immorality of the act itself.

I don't think that's correct. The wars were happening among humans regardless of Bijuu presence or not. They're surely not the only reason and the main weapons people used them for waging wars. That's just plain gullibility in terms to back up this argument.

I'm not walking a very thin line here because your example was ridiculous. Killing them isn't a way to correct them. That's Madara's way of thinking and it's the sole reason why humanity weighs human interaction by power instead of understanding one another.

You're pinning it again on Tobirama, which is false. He wasn't the main reason for his insanity.

With this I agree, but let's face it, it won't end like that. So if Sasuke, whose powers exceed Bijuu, can roam freely throughout the world, why couldn't Bijuu do the same? They both have conscious, intelligence, and in this given discussion, a risk of breaking a certain war, be it them being used or starting it themselves.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

A limited period of peace can't lead to permanent peace if it's achieved by your solution. In fact, it's even questionable whether that limited period of peace would be even established given the human nature, as I said oh so many many times. Genuine peace will happen when the threat of tyrannical personas disappear, not when you kill innocent beings. Naruto and the Alliance would be subjugated by the authority of power if they were to make your decision, they would act the same way as Madara and Indra would. An act caused by the desire or fear for power.

That logic makes no sense. Setting aside that there is real world examples to show that a long term peace can be achieved through the deaths of innocent people, you bring up "tyrannical personas and human nature" which is the whole reason the Bijuus need to be taken off the field. You're basically making the argument of "well we know nuclear bombs are dangerous, but since taking them away won't stop people from dying, why bother to stop crazy people from having them". It's ridiculous. Yes, eliminating the Bijuus won't stop war, but it will lessen the amount of damage and death, and if one single person is saved, isn't that a good thing? Not to mention, this isn't solely about war. As previously mentioned, there have been hundreds of people hurt and killed by the Bijuus outside of war, when they drove their host crazy, when they overpowered their host, when someone attempted to gain power over them, and even when people attempted to find them.

How is leaving nine dangerous beings, who as shown in the past can be easily turned against innocent people and used as massive weapons, a good idea when there's no way to keep them from being used like that again in the future? What happens when the next Danzo or Madara comes along and decides they know best for everyone, or when one country begins to get the short end and decides they need something to get them back on par with the others? Exactly what good comes from keeping the Bijuus around?

Also, this is neither how Madara nor Indra would act.

I don't think that's correct. The wars were happening among humans regardless of Bijuu presence or not. They're surely not the only reason and the main weapons people used them for waging wars. That's just plain gullibility in terms to back up this argument.

But they ARE the most dangerous common weapon, and one that can be used by anyone in and out of war to kill massive amounts of people.

I'm not walking a very thin line here because your example was ridiculous. Killing them isn't a way to correct them. That's Madara's way of thinking and it's the sole reason why humanity weighs human interaction by power instead of understanding one another.

Madara's way of thinking is to use them, not to kill them. We literally saw that he considered and treated them as tools, which is the entire point. There are people who will see them as such and attempt to use them, and even if they fail to do so, we have seen how easily the Bijuus get turned against humanity. In either case, it will just begin the cycle again and more then likely there won't be a Naruto around to fix things again.

With this I agree, but let's face it, it won't end like that. So if Sasuke, whose powers exceed Bijuu, can roam freely throughout the world, why couldn't Bijuu do the same? They both have conscious, intelligence, and in this given discussion, a risk of breaking a certain war, be it them being used or starting it themselves.

Because Sasuke is the only one who can use or misuse his power, and will eventually be gone. The Bijuu's power can be used or misused by anyone, and they can constantly be employed until the end of time.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

That logic makes no sense. Setting aside that there is real world examples to show that a long term peace can be achieved through the deaths of innocent people, you bring up "tyrannical personas and human nature" which is the whole reason the Bijuus need to be taken off the field. You're basically making the argument of "well we know nuclear bombs are dangerous, but since taking them away won't stop people from dying, why bother to stop crazy people from having them". It's ridiculous. Yes, eliminating the Bijuus won't stop war, but it will lessen the amount of damage and death, and if one single person is saved, isn't that a good thing? Not to mention, this isn't solely about war. As previously mentioned, there have been hundreds of people hurt and killed by the Bijuus outside of war, when they drove their host crazy, when they overpowered their host, when someone attempted to gain power over them, and even when people attempted to find them.

How is leaving nine dangerous beings, who as shown in the past can be easily turned against innocent people and used as massive weapons, a good idea when there's no way to keep them from being used like that again in the future? What happens when the next Danzo or Madara comes along and decides they know best for everyone, or when one country begins to get the short end and decides they need something to get them back on par with the others? Exactly what good comes from keeping the Bijuus around?

Also, this is neither how Madara nor Indra would act.

But they ARE the most dangerous common weapon, and one that can be used by anyone in and out of war to kill massive amounts of people.

Madara's way of thinking is to use them, not to kill them. We literally saw that he considered and treated them as tools, which is the entire point. There are people who will see them as such and attempt to use them, and even if they fail to do so, we have seen how easily the Bijuus get turned against humanity. In either case, it will just begin the cycle again and more then likely there won't be a Naruto around to fix things again.

Because Sasuke is the only one who can use or misuse his power, and will eventually be gone. The Bijuu's power can be used or misused by anyone, and they can constantly be employed until the end of time.

No, it won't lessen the damage because people will find another way to cause destruction. Don't be ridiculous, nuclear bombs have no emotions nor intelligence. They have no conscious so that's out of the question. The repetition of the same attitude towards war is the reason why it always happens anyway. A one single person will either be saved or it won't regardless of Bijuu being present or not, if the waging of war happens or is happening.

There's no good or bad idea here. You're not talking about things or weapons here. You're talking about someone who would fight alongside you, show you emotions, save your life. Well, that's the catch Naruto's trying to change here. It's not about the weapons or means for possible destruction. It's about people's hearts and minds that cause that destruction. People's reasoning needs to be dealt with, not the weapons, or in this case, innocent beings.

Sure they would. They're the idiots who favor power over anything else.

They're a dangerous weapon if a man wants them to be. They alone wouldn't hurt a fly. It's about people, as I keep saying.

Madara's way is to kill anyone who dares to cross his path. Using them along the way and succumbing them to his authority is a part of his persona. The Bijuus were turned against humans easily because they were tortured for generations and generations. They didn't have a Naruto who would understand them and then through him all others reaching that understanding. When Naruto changes the world now, it will be written in history and those teachings will be passed on to future generations. The situation will surely be better than it is now.

But for the time being, he should be the same as the Bijuu in your eyes. Otherwise, it's double standards. Yeah, but as long as there is no another Madara, they wouldn't hurt a fly.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

No, it won't lessen the damage because people will find another way to cause destruction. Don't be ridiculous, nuclear bombs have no emotions nor intelligence. They have no conscious so that's out of the question. The repetition of the same attitude towards war is the reason why it always happens anyway. A one single person will either be saved or it won't regardless of Bijuu being present or not, if the waging of war happens or is happening.

But not on the level of the Bijuus. The only other powers we have seen in the series that can rival that is Mokuton (which really only applies to Hashirama given what Yamato has shown), the Rinnegan (which will no longer be possible unless both Sasuke and Yamato continue their lines), and the Gates (which only seem as power specifically because of Gai's natural power). And because wars continue to happen, people have tried their best to get rid of and limit the most dangerous weapons, so that in the case that a war does happen, said weapons can not be employed. That's why there are bans and sanctions on specific weapons, like mustard gas. That's why there's been such a big push for disarmament and greater background checks for buying guns.

There's no good or bad idea here. You're not talking about things or weapons here. You're talking about someone who would fight alongside you, show you emotions, save your life. Well, that's the catch Naruto's trying to change here. It's not about the weapons or means for possible destruction. It's about people's hearts and minds that cause that destruction. People's reasoning needs to be dealt with, not the weapons, or in this case, innocent beings.

But we are talking about weapons here, which is the point you seem to be missing. Naruto's ability to change people is not fail proof, meaning just because he's attempting to change people doesn't mean everyone will. But more importantly, any effect Naruto will and can impose will only be there as long as he is, and perhaps a few generations afterward.

Sure they would. They're the idiots who favor power over anything else.

Not a single thing like that has been said about Indra and why would Madara, who desires power above everything else, eliminate power? Shouldn't it be the opposite, him keeping it s he could maintain his power.

They're a dangerous weapon if a man wants them to be. They alone wouldn't hurt a fly. It's about people, as I keep saying.

What about every time they broke from their host, when no one was controlling them? What about the Ichibi's treatment of Gaara, who had done nothing to it? And what about the Kyuubi attempting to kill the baby Naruto after being freed, instead of trying to run or something?

Madara's way is to kill anyone who dares to cross his path. Using them along the way and succumbing them to his authority is a part of his persona. The Bijuus were turned against humans easily because they were tortured for generations and generations. They didn't have a Naruto who would understand them and then through him all others reaching that understanding. When Naruto changes the world now, it will be written in history and those teachings will be passed on to future generations. The situation will surely be better than it is now.

When was that way shown? Madara fights and kills because he enjoys it, we have never seen him kill just because someone dared to cross his path. In fact, it's been the opposite, with him getting joy out of people opposing him and then crushing their hope over and over again.

Tortured for generations and generations? What? We have never seen nor heard of that. Aside from Madara and later Obito controlling the Kyuubi for a short while, the most that has ever happen to the Bijuus have been them getting locked away inside a host, which is hardly torture and that was only for a few generations (sixty years given that all this started with Hashirama giving them to the other villages). Heck, judging by the Ichibi's two examples and the Kyuubi, they were the one's doing the torturing to their hosts.

Except that Naruto's not doing anything his predecessors didn't attempt. The only difference is his unique ability, which isn't something that anyone else can pull. If it were, then Nagato and Jiraiya wouldn't have failed.

But for the time being, he should be the same as the Bijuu in your eyes. Otherwise, it's double standards. Yeah, but as long as there is no another Madara, they wouldn't hurt a fly.

How is it a double standard? Again, the only one who can abuse Sasuke's power is Sasuke. Anyone can abuse the Bijuu's power. There's an obvious difference. Also, the only Bijuu who Madara ever dealt with was the Kyuubi, yet all the Bijuus were twisted. We have neither been told nor seen Madara interacting with any of the other Bijuus, so how can you write it off as him being the reason? Hashirama was the one who was said to have held the other Bijuus, and given that his personality is basically a smarter Naruto, that really doesn't change anything. But more importantly, what exactly is stopping another Madara, or Danzo, or Hidan from appearing? How exactly will those who would abuse the Bijuu's power be kept from appearing?

 

[Schabrak]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Is it time for an intervention again?

I admit that I even haven't read the majority of the latest posts, but I surely know that you won't be able to reduce your opinion to a common denominator.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

But not on the level of the Bijuus. The only other powers we have seen in the series that can rival that is Mokuton (which really only applies to Hashirama given what Yamato has shown), the Rinnegan (which will no longer be possible unless both Sasuke and Yamato continue their lines), and the Gates (which only seem as power specifically because of Gai's natural power). And because wars continue to happen, people have tried their best to get rid of and limit the most dangerous weapons, so that in the case that a war does happen, said weapons can not be employed. That's why there are bans and sanctions on specific weapons, like mustard gas. That's why there's been such a big push for disarmament and greater background checks for buying guns.

But we are talking about weapons here, which is the point you seem to be missing. Naruto's ability to change people is not fail proof, meaning just because he's attempting to change people doesn't mean everyone will. But more importantly, any effect Naruto will and can impose will only be there as long as he is, and perhaps a few generations afterward.

Not a single thing like that has been said about Indra and why would Madara, who desires power above everything else, eliminate power? Shouldn't it be the opposite, him keeping it s he could maintain his power.

What about every time they broke from their host, when no one was controlling them? What about the Ichibi's treatment of Gaara, who had done nothing to it? And what about the Kyuubi attempting to kill the baby Naruto after being freed, instead of trying to run or something?

When was that way shown? Madara fights and kills because he enjoys it, we have never seen him kill just because someone dared to cross his path. In fact, it's been the opposite, with him getting joy out of people opposing him and then crushing their hope over and over again.

Tortured for generations and generations? What? We have never seen nor heard of that. Aside from Madara and later Obito controlling the Kyuubi for a short while, the most that has ever happen to the Bijuus have been them getting locked away inside a host, which is hardly torture and that was only for a few generations (sixty years given that all this started with Hashirama giving them to the other villages). Heck, judging by the Ichibi's two examples and the Kyuubi, they were the one's doing the torturing to their hosts.

Except that Naruto's not doing anything his predecessors didn't attempt. The only difference is his unique ability, which isn't something that anyone else can pull. If it were, then Nagato and Jiraiya wouldn't have failed.

How is it a double standard? Again, the only one who can abuse Sasuke's power is Sasuke. Anyone can abuse the Bijuu's power. There's an obvious difference. Also, the only Bijuu who Madara ever dealt with was the Kyuubi, yet all the Bijuus were twisted. We have neither been told nor seen Madara interacting with any of the other Bijuus, so how can you write it off as him being the reason? Hashirama was the one who was said to have held the other Bijuus, and given that his personality is basically a smarter Naruto, that really doesn't change anything. But more importantly, what exactly is stopping another Madara, or Danzo, or Hidan from appearing? How exactly will those who would abuse the Bijuu's power be kept from appearing?

Such a perception is the problem in the first place. If people are always let to do how they please and the blame is always put on the effect rather than the cause, humans can never change. I agree that the Bijuu have much more power and would result in more destruction, but a human isn't stupid. Eventually, people always find some deus ex type of weapon that is always on pedestal. I'm sure the same would be without the Bijuu existing. Besides, if Bijuu have people's support, there is a slim chance than anyone else besides a Madara-type person would try and even have the ability to control the Bijuu for ill purposes again.

That "weapon" will now have the ability to stand up for itself after it got people's support. Through generations they assimilated the attitude of the actual weapon, being treated as nothing more but a tool, selfishly. It's a principle of affirmation, a behavior gets used to something even if it's against one's will. With people's support, Bijuu wouldn't be seen as weapons anymore and they would have possibility of acting and interacting with humans as they always wanted. Killing them because of the paranoia that another Madara would appear doesn't seem moral, fair or even logical.

I didn't mean literally. I meant that they think and rationalize situations on darwinism principle. It's all about power. They would definitely do what you want without the blink of an eye.

I already elaborated that part. Why do you think they wanted to break from their host? They were imprisoned, trapped, against their own will. A Jinchuuriki is actually their prison. They were literally molested and their intelligence was insulted on an unbelievable level. Kyuubi even flashbacked his thoughts about how even Hashirama/Mito/Kushina didn't even try to talk to him. They just kept him imprisoned. They only mercy they gave him is lack of cruelty during the conversation.

And what's he doing now? He's waging war because people don't want to succumb to his insanity. In other words, killing because of crossing his path.

Are we gonna play semantics here? Being in prison is a torture enough. Be it two, three or fifty four generations, it doesn't matter. They didn't find anyone who was like Hagoromo. Except, Ichibi did with that old man.

When the general state of mind about Bijuu is changed, there won't be any abusing of power. All the Bijuu were twisted because all the people treated them as tools. Obviously because he's interacting with them the way he is in this war. Simple. Like I said, when Naruto changes the general notions of shinobi world, the future generations will know all about him, Madara and the Bijuu. A new standard will be engraved in people's minds, sort of like a law. Sasuke will create a new Uchiha clan which won't have any ill intentions. People learn from mistakes and can better themselves. I'm not saying that isn't a chance of another one appearing, but it's definitely practically almost non-existent compared to this era now.

 

[Delbi]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

I don't think that's correct. The wars were happening among humans regardless of Bijuu presence or not. They're surely not the only reason and the main weapons people used them for waging wars. That's just plain gullibility in terms to back up this argument.

It's not gullibility, before ninjutsu and the Biju they were using conventional weapons like swords and spears. Ninjutsu comes along and they gain the power to level a house. Biju's have the power to level a mountain. There is no gullibility needed, Biju are sentient nuclear weapons. Very few humans possess the power of a Biju, and those humans aren't immortal and can't be used over and over again.

It's not as if Biju are the only problem, but they are still a large part of it. The creation of ninjutsu was an awful idea as it grants amazing power to people who shouldn't have such power.

You're pinning it again on Tobirama, which is false. He wasn't the main reason for his insanity.

No not the main reason but when Madara was gaining back his sanity after rebelling against Konoha, Tobirama undid all of that. If not for Tobirama, Madara has more time to heal and we don't know what he does, it's very possible he could have experienced things that gave him a turnaround like Sasuke did.

With this I agree, but let's face it, it won't end like that. So if Sasuke, whose powers exceed Bijuu, can roam freely throughout the world, why couldn't Bijuu do the same? They both have conscious, intelligence, and in this given discussion, a risk of breaking a certain war, be it them being used or starting it themselves.

I already said I think Sasuke should be killed for what he's done. I do believe he's changed but again, giving him a second change after all he's done sets an awful precedent. Same goes for the Biju, who while maybe not as powerful as Sasuke, are a greater risk.

 

[Exodi]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Is it time for an intervention again?

I admit that I even haven't read the majority of the latest posts, but I surely know that you won't be able to reduce your opinion to a common denominator.

I'm actually in admiration of how dedicated each party is to making these arguments. There are enough posts on the subject to write a few novels, I think.

The Ethics and Morals of Wartime in the Naruto Universe, by MangaHelpers Forum Members

How to Kill a Bijuu in Seven Days, by Anita Coolnewjutsu

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

It's not gullibility, before ninjutsu and the Biju they were using conventional weapons like swords and spears. Ninjutsu comes along and they gain the power to level a house. Biju's have the power to level a mountain. There is no gullibility needed, Biju are sentient nuclear weapons. Very few humans possess the power of a Biju, and those humans aren't immortal and can't be used over and over again.

It's not as if Biju are the only problem, but they are still a large part of it. The creation of ninjutsu was an awful idea as it grants amazing power to people who shouldn't have such power.


No not the main reason but when Madara was gaining back his sanity after rebelling against Konoha, Tobirama undid all of that. If not for Tobirama, Madara has more time to heal and we don't know what he does, it's very possible he could have experienced things that gave him a turnaround like Sasuke did.



I already said I think Sasuke should be killed for what he's done. I do believe he's changed but again, giving him a second change after all he's done sets an awful precedent. Same goes for the Biju, who while maybe not as powerful as Sasuke, are a greater risk.

There's also Ninjutsu that is almost equally dangerous as the Bijuu are, but you're not going to eliminate a shinobi who's capable of such a feat because you're afraid that he might be controlled somehow in the future that would cause harm to people in general. Obito was a being just as a Bijuu is a being, with enough power to do as he pleases. And what happened to him? He was susceptible to being controlled. Not the type of control that Bijuu are used, but a different type, which is irrelevant anyway. So yeah, are you gonna eliminate every Uchiha born just because he might turn out to be another Madara or Obito? No, you won't.

No, Madara wouldn't ever make a turnaround like Sasuke because Sasuke had the luxury of getting a long-term pep-talk with his brother. If Tobirama indeed killed Izuna, there woudln't be a thing in this world that would make a turnaround for Madara, unless Izuna actually spoke to him, as Itachi did with Sasuke.

I don't believe that's the case, as it will be a beginning of a new era. New standards, new laws, new interactions will be set as norms in people's minds. What Sasuke did, Bijuu's pasts, it won't be erased, but it will be remembered as examples of what not to do. As Naruto did with Nagato, he stopped at one point, regardless of Nagato being at fault, and that's how mutual understanding came to mind.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

I'm actually in admiration of how dedicated each party is to making these arguments. There are enough posts on the subject to write a few novels, I think.

The Ethics and Morals of Wartime in the Naruto Universe, by MangaHelpers Forum Members

How to Kill a Bijuu in Seven Days, by Anita Coolnewjutsu

I'm actually amazed at the lack of understanding or comprehension of why sparing the bijuu and keeping them on the battlefield is bad, and I fail to understand how temporary peace won't lead to permanent peace. It's not like sparing the bijuu will definitely result in peace either, but keeping them near the enemy's hands make it easier for the enemies to succeed. The claim "morals" doesn't make sense here as you'd basically be putting the lives of countless of people at risk for seven chakra beings that can regenerate at any time, who don't want to become part of the Juubi again at any cost.

I also still remain adamant that the only reason why anyone even cares about the bijuu is because of Naruto and Naruto vs. Sasuke. If Naruto didn't tell Sasuke to not kill the Juubi or the bijuu, everyone wouldn't even care.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto 674 Discussion / 675 Predictions

I also still remain adamant that the only reason why anyone even cares about the bijuu is because of Naruto and Naruto vs. Sasuke. If Naruto didn't tell Sasuke to not kill the Juubi or the bijuu, everyone wouldn't even care.

Are you serious, brah? And you defended your reading comprehension. If you still think this is because of Naruto or Sasuke, I'm the one who's amazed.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

There's also Ninjutsu that is almost equally dangerous as the Bijuu are, but you're not going to eliminate a shinobi who's capable of such a feat because you're afraid that he might be controlled somehow in the future that would cause harm to people in general. Obito was a being just as a Bijuu is a being, with enough power to do as he pleases. And what happened to him? He was susceptible to being controlled. Not the type of control that Bijuu are used, but a different type, which is irrelevant anyway. So yeah, are you gonna eliminate every Uchiha born just because he might turn out to be another Madara or Obito? No, you won't.

If those ninja were immortals, sure.

Murder is only as horrible as it seems because of mortality, and the pain potentially inflicted while doing the deed. The fact that once someone's dead, they're gone forever is the clincher. Bijuu aren't like that. The only problem I'd ever see with killing a bijuu is if they're currently inside of a jinchuuriki, in which case you'd have to kill the person in order to kill the bijuu. And even then... killing 9 people to save the entire world... or in the case of a Juubi Jinchuuriki, killing ONE person to save the entire world... is a price worth paying.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

This is our problem, guys. It's similar. From what I understood, there are opinions on both sides, and it's debated to this day.

---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

If those ninja were immortals, sure.

Madara came back from the dead, literally. He wasn't immortal, but if he wanted to be, he could.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Such a perception is the problem in the first place. If people are always let to do how they please and the blame is always put on the effect rather than the cause, humans can never change. I agree that the Bijuu have much more power and would result in more destruction, but a human isn't stupid. Eventually, people always find some deus ex type of weapon that is always on pedestal. I'm sure the same would be without the Bijuu existing. Besides, if Bijuu have people's support, there is a slim chance than anyone else besides a Madara-type person would try and even have the ability to control the Bijuu for ill purposes again.

Where exactly was it suggested that people be allowed to do as they please or only the effect is blamed? Working towards peace is not simple and takes time, so while working for peace why not get rid of these dangerous weapons so that they can't be used in the meantime? People possibly creating another weapon down the line is still far better then allowing them access to a weapon now. And it's silly to assume only one type of person would attempt to use them when we've clearly seen differently. What about the Danzo-types, acting under their own belief of what is right? What about the Kazekage-type, acting as to provide for their people? What about the Hidan-type, acting just for the love of violence? There are plenty of types that would make use of the Bijuus as weapons, for a variety of reasons.

That "weapon" will now have the ability to stand up for itself after it got people's support. Through generations they assimilated the attitude of the actual weapon, being treated as nothing more but a tool, selfishly. It's a principle of affirmation, a behavior gets used to something even if it's against one's will. With people's support, Bijuu wouldn't be seen as weapons anymore and they would have possibility of acting and interacting with humans as they always wanted. Killing them because of the paranoia that another Madara would appear doesn't seem moral, fair or even logical.

Considering how long they have existed, the short time they were used shouldn't have been a factor. It being so only shows that they should be eliminated, because of the large chance such things will happen again. Not to mention that as far as we have seen, very few people saw the Bijuus as weapons. The majority of people saw them as what they were, monsters, which was one of the factors of why they were so feared and hatred. The other was the numerous deaths that came about every time they appeared. Also don't believe there has been any indication that the Bijuus wanted to interact with people. Considering their treatment of people who had done nothing to them, I would question that. And they had at least thousands of years to do that before they ended up being used and changed. Anyway, it's perfectly moral and fair within the context of the series. We have seen that the elimination of possible threats are pretty much the standard in the Narutoverse, and seen the results of when such threats aren't taken care of coming back to bite innocent people in the butt. And it's not paranoia when we have seen various examples of people using and attempting to use the Bijuus.

I didn't mean literally. I meant that they think and rationalize situations on darwinism principle. It's all about power. They would definitely do what you want without the blink of an eye.

Again, where was such a thing said about Indra? And when have we ever seen Madara get rid of power? He's far more likely to make use of it then get rid of it.

I already elaborated that part. Why do you think they wanted to break from their host? They were imprisoned, trapped, against their own will. A Jinchuuriki is actually their prison. They were literally molested and their intelligence was insulted on an unbelievable level. Kyuubi even flashbacked his thoughts about how even Hashirama/Mito/Kushina didn't even try to talk to him. They just kept him imprisoned. They only mercy they gave him is lack of cruelty during the conversation.

So that's justification for killing innocent people who did nothing to them? That's justification for mentally torturing children who were in the same bad situation? Just because they were locked away for a short while? And you speak as if we hadn't seen the hosts attempting to befriend and speak to them, only for said attempts to get rejected.

And what's he doing now? He's waging war because people don't want to succumb to his insanity. In other words, killing because of crossing his path.

First off, Madara didn't start this war and by all accounts, it wasn't even apart of his plan. Secondly, Madara has made it clear several times during this war that he's fighting simply because he finds it entertaining, thus the reason he has passed up several key moments.

Are we gonna play semantics here? Being in prison is a torture enough. Be it two, three or fifty four generations, it doesn't matter. They didn't find anyone who was like Hagoromo. Except, Ichibi did with that old man.

No it's not. Being locked away may be an inconvenience, but it's hardly torture in any context. And it does matter when we're talking about beings that have existed for at least a few thousand years. Sixty years is a drop in the bucket compared to that. The point is, that being sealed is far from some sort of life-changing shattering event that justifies them doing far worst.

When the general state of mind about Bijuu is changed, there won't be any abusing of power. All the Bijuu were twisted because all the people treated them as tools. Obviously because he's interacting with them the way he is in this war. Simple. Like I said, when Naruto changes the general notions of shinobi world, the future generations will know all about him, Madara and the Bijuu. A new standard will be engraved in people's minds, sort of like a law. Sasuke will create a new Uchiha clan which won't have any ill intentions. People learn from mistakes and can better themselves. I'm not saying that isn't a chance of another one appearing, but it's definitely practically almost non-existent compared to this era now.

Because that's the only reason people would abuse them, right? It's not like a single lone person has ever attempted to use them for his own gain, or a leader in order to help those under him? The idea that just because a majority of people think one way means they won't be used again makes no sense seeing as the majority of people were never shown thinking of the Bijuu as tools, but as monsters. It was only the leaders of the villages and such that considered them tools. The majority isn't gonna prevent the minority from doing what they want. Not seeing how people knowing that taking in all the Bijuus can grant you amazing power helps your argument. That seems like just the thing that would drive another to try and weaponize them again. Seeing as the Uchiha clan never had any ill intentions to begin with... And people also repeat their mistakes, especially given enough time. There were more then one reason the Bijuus were used as weapons, and those reasons will still exist in the coming era.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Are you serious, brah? And you defended your reading comprehension. If you still think this is because of Naruto or Sasuke, I'm the one who's amazed.

Prove me wrong, then. I have not seen anyone complain until Naruto brought it up, and Sasuke refused to listen. I mean, no one seemed to have an issue whatsoever with Naruto and the Alliance fighting the Juubi as if they were tryin to kill it, but when Naruto told Sasuke not to, people started complaining about Sasuke.

I know Invader doesn't care about the bijuu, he's just trying to spite Sasuke and make Naruto look good, which is why I'm not really taking any of his argument seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

This is our problem, guys. It's similar. From what I understood, there are opinions on both sides, and it's debated to this day.

I don't understand why people defend killing five people just to save one life, but I guess some argue that the five people could be criminals or a family, the one person could be a hero or a bad guy, etc. But if they were just average citizens, it seems to be more moralistic to save 5 lives over 1 life.

Plus, this comparison doesn't entirely work because unlike those lives, bijuu can regenerate anytime.

 

[Roman]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Where exactly was it suggested that people be allowed to do as they please or only the effect is blamed? Working towards peace is not simple and takes time, so while working for peace why not get rid of these dangerous weapons so that they can't be used in the meantime? People possibly creating another weapon down the line is still far better then allowing them access to a weapon now. And it's silly to assume only one type of person would attempt to use them when we've clearly seen differently. What about the Danzo-types, acting under their own belief of what is right? What about the Kazekage-type, acting as to provide for their people? What about the Hidan-type, acting just for the love of violence? There are plenty of types that would make use of the Bijuus as weapons, for a variety of reasons.

Considering how long they have existed, the short time they were used shouldn't have been a factor. It being so only shows that they should be eliminated, because of the large chance such things will happen again. Not to mention that as far as we have seen, very few people saw the Bijuus as weapons. The majority of people saw them as what they were, monsters, which was one of the factors of why they were so feared and hatred. The other was the numerous deaths that came about every time they appeared. Also don't believe there has been any indication that the Bijuus wanted to interact with people. Considering their treatment of people who had done nothing to them, I would question that. And they had at least thousands of years to do that before they ended up being used and changed. Anyway, it's perfectly moral and fair within the context of the series. We have seen that the elimination of possible threats are pretty much the standard in the Narutoverse, and seen the results of when such threats aren't taken care of coming back to bite innocent people in the butt. And it's not paranoia when we have seen various examples of people using and attempting to use the Bijuus.

Again, where was such a thing said about Indra? And when have we ever seen Madara get rid of power? He's far more likely to make use of it then get rid of it.

So that's justification for killing innocent people who did nothing to them? That's justification for mentally torturing children who were in the same bad situation? Just because they were locked away for a short while? And you speak as if we hadn't seen the hosts attempting to befriend and speak to them, only for said attempts to get rejected.

First off, Madara didn't start this war and by all accounts, it wasn't even apart of his plan. Secondly, Madara has made it clear several times during this war that he's fighting simply because he finds it entertaining, thus the reason he has passed up several key moments.

No it's not. Being locked away may be an inconvenience, but it's hardly torture in any context. And it does matter when we're talking about beings that have existed for at least a few thousand years. Sixty years is a drop in the bucket compared to that. The point is, that being sealed is far from some sort of life-changing shattering event that justifies them doing far worst.

Because that's the only reason people would abuse them, right? It's not like a single lone person has ever attempted to use them for his own gain, or a leader in order to help those under him? The idea that just because a majority of people think one way means they won't be used again makes no sense seeing as the majority of people were never shown thinking of the Bijuu as tools, but as monsters. It was only the leaders of the villages and such that considered them tools. The majority isn't gonna prevent the minority from doing what they want. Not seeing how people knowing that taking in all the Bijuus can grant you amazing power helps your argument. That seems like just the thing that would drive another to try and weaponize them again. Seeing as the Uchiha clan never had any ill intentions to begin with... And people also repeat their mistakes, especially given enough time. There were more then one reason the Bijuus were used as weapons, and those reasons will still exist in the coming era.

It's not suggested anywhere since it's common sense. Some with too much power think they can do whatever they please. Cause is the control and the authority over one's own power or a Bijuu for example, while the effect is the destruction and chaos. I agree, it's not simple, it's complicated. That's why it lasted ever since Indra and Ashura started their quarrel. The types of people won't matter and the comparison of state of minds can't be possible after the war is over. Too much change will take place because of the people's unity.

If every village had a Jinchuuriki, I don't think only a few saw them as weapons. Sure they did want interaction. Why do you think they'we been looking for another Hagormo until now? Regardless, being treated like a tool implies not only absence of human interaction but complete deniability of freedom. Man, anyone would for themselves if they think injustice was did to them. You also have to take into consideration that they generalized people's behavior since the majority of them treated them like crap. The standard of Narutoverse is clearly wrong as Naruto is trying to change it.

We don't need it to be said. You can downright assume it since he's the one who started the authority of power. Madara is his reincarnation. Maybe he wasn't as crazy as Madara is, but the similarity is certainly there.

There's no justification for killing anyone, much less deciding another's life for the sake of hope that might not be realized, as in this case. They were once infants too and probably received the same treatment. Like I said, they generalized people's behavior. Just because they tried and without results is another reason they generalized their behavior. That's why Kurama needed 600 chapters to actually start believing in Naruto's words.

Finding it entertaining only adds up to his insanity. Not to mention killing because of entertainment.

I disagree. I would feel tortured if I was locked inside a person, being not able to do shit. No, it doesn't matter since the X years passed before they found Naruto after Hagoromo. They didn't do bad things just because they were sealed. We already covered the people's behavior part.

A leader shapes people's opinion about something. If a leader thinks it's a tool, a shinobi will follow his example. That's how it's always done. The majority isn't gonna prevent minority, I agree, but like I said, the chances of it are sure as hell gonna decrease a lot after this war.

---------- Post added at 08:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 AM ----------

Prove me wrong, then. I have not seen anyone complain until Naruto brought it up, and Sasuke refused to listen. I mean, no one seemed to have an issue whatsoever with Naruto and the Alliance fighting the Juubi as if they were tryin to kill it, but when Naruto told Sasuke not to, people started complaining about Sasuke.

I know Invader doesn't care about the bijuu, he's just trying to spite Sasuke and make Naruto look good, which is why I'm not really taking any of his argument seriously.


I don't understand why people defend killing five people just to save one life, but I guess some argue that the five people could be criminals or a family, the one person could be a hero or a bad guy, etc. But if they were just average citizens, it seems to be more moralistic to save 5 lives over 1 life.

Plus, this comparison doesn't entirely work because unlike those lives, bijuu can regenerate anytime.

I don't need to prove you wrong. If you're reading my posts, you know this has nothing to do with Naruto except that he's a character that has a small fraction of relevance in this debate. I always have an issue with killing innocents. Why you're generalizing opinions is beyond me.

Are we the same person? The guy put like one post about this, let it go. This is about morals and ethics, not about Naruto or Sasuke.

Because philosophy dictates that morals can be stretched given the possibility of contingencies. Like, if you're not certain that a fat man would even stop the train if you pushed him, you can't push him because you could kill both him and 5 people. That's one contingency that bends a decision that was otherwise instantaneous.

This comparison does work because int his case, the contingency would be another weapon, same amount of victims with different weapon, short period of peace if it happens at all etc.