Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3
We have seen the village weaken three different times by a major conflict that caused massive deaths and destruction (after the Kyuubi attack, after Oto/Suna's invasion, and after Pain's invasion), none of which resulted in any of the other nations attacking Konoha, even though at the very least Konoha was at it's weakest point before the time skip. So if Konoha wasn't attacked and a world war sparked none of those time, it seems questionable that it would have happen this time. Danzo being so casual about it and using Sasuke, instead of the village being endangered, to force Itachi into it seems to at least imply he himself was confident of no external danger.
It is questionable but a its claimed in the manga and I don't mean from Konohamaru... We don't really know how bad an Uchiha attack could be and how worse then (let's say) the Kurama event this would lead in weakening the village.
@ninjabot
Yes he is. The instance I mentioned above was a fight to the death. He does the same things during training sessions. And if I can't blame Sasuke's psychotic nature on Kishimoto's writing, you don't get to blame Naruto's idiocy on it.
In "fights to the death" Kishi still makes comic relief. Thing is that aside of this instances Naruto has showed SOME brain power compared to Sasuke never showing "love". Sasuke is consistent. Not to say I don't agree in a sense with what you said there.
A ninjutsu that required ONE handseal, and a large amount of chakra. Not exactly a complex ability to grasp.
I suggest you look what class that jutsu falls into. Naruto was a genin, a very bad genin. The jutsu is B-rank and its a Jonin level jutsu.
Now normal bunshin has this many handseals:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Clone_Technique
I wonder if SCJ does not have more but Naruto just shows the last one.
None of which more complex than bait-and-switch. "I'm here, no wait, I'm over here."
I am sure no idiot as you said he is can pull that off... If that was Sasuke I am sure you would be claiming how brilliant he was.
Smart!? The guy who decided to throw ALL of his monsters at one opponent (when he knew that opponent relied on Shadow Clones), thereby leaving himself unprotected? He didn't even have to watch out for Naruto's clones, he could've just assumed Kakashi or Chouji was gonna try to attack him from his blind spot. But no... the smartest thing he could do was build up his chakra and put it into one last ditch effort.
Yes Kakuzu is smart. You stating he could have done things differently and perhaps won is not going to change this. Yes, its a manga, the writer does not make them do rocket science tactics all the time as it makes sense.... Thing is he is one of the smart ones.
I never brought into question why he's dumb. I just want people to stop claiming he's smart. Because he's not. I don't care of Kishimoto thinks it's funny, or charming. Naruto himself has admitted on occasion that he's dumb. Take his words to heart.
Again, no idiot or dumb person could do the things Naruto does. He is not the smartest character in the manga by far but he is not the dumb kid you are trying to make him.
It's not my line of reasoning, it's Kishimoto's. And... well, society. Dumb can be a personality trait. Anything about one's person that is prevalent enough about them that that behavior is considered their natural behavior, is considered a part of their personality. Shikamaru's lazy all the time. Sasuke's an asshole all the time. And Naruto and his mother are dumb. All the time.
And yes, Hashirama's dumb. Just not Naruto-dumb. You've seen his choices in life as well as his actions when not in battle. You've also seen all the proof I need that Kushina's a retard. It's all bolded in italics.
Right... Someone who could teach Minato a lot of super seals is dumb. Got it. His life choices where perfect, just not perfect the way you want them to be. Its a matter of opinion. Executing criminals would be a "perfect" decision from a ruler for some and not so much for others.
Now and again, to claim Kushina or Naruto are retards is nonsense, complete nonsense. You could claim they are not the smartest cookies out there but retards? Its just you bias.
@KingOfNight
Let's not even go anywhere near there. Don't tell me to prove he couldn't, because he didn't. That's a fact. His dreams don't mean shit. Because he also dreamed that the clans will magically love each other once a village is established and he also dreamed to make peace by splitting the Bijuu. He's a dreamer, that's all. Facts are, he created a village with no society or a solid structure, and it would have definitely crumbled if Tobirama didn't do what he did. Don't tell me he died and all that, because I don't care about that. Tobirama is the one who did the hard work, not Hashirama.
Right, right. That is why the village flourished before he died am I right? He also broth peace in his time. Hashirama was the one that did the hard work as he broth the clans together, broth peace, created a new ninja system, got the Kages to cooperate and so on... Then he died and Tobirama started administrating the village. Thing is he achieved a ton when he lived, he just did not had the time to do it all. With Tobirama no Konoha would even exist. Hashirama did the impossible and the "hard work". Tobirama just continued it.
You're trying to prolong this discussion(like you always do) with irrelevant matters and changing the subject times and times again. You stated that Hashirama accomplished more than Tobirama and that Tobirama is a cold leader that accomplished nothing. That is factually wrong. He is neither cold and he accomplished everything. And now you're saying that Hashirama would've done the same if he was alive(when he naively thought the clans would just love each other after a village is established).
I never said Tobirama achieved anything. I said COMPARED TO HASHIRAMA. Now Hashirama obviously could not achieve the exact same results. I claimed he could achieve satisfactory results similar to Tobirama that would lead to the village prospering.
PS. I am sure personal attacks don't support whatever argument you are trying to make and are seriously not needed. I will never understand why people think personal attacks serve any goal in an argument. We are having a friendly chat over a manga we like (or at least I do).
You're trying to go against what the Manga is saying by attributing the Uchiha Massacre to Tobirama when Hiruzen clearly stated that Danzo and the Uchiha Massacre was created because he FAILED to follow Tobirama's way. Again, you're FACTUALLY wrong.
No, I am not trying to go against the manga. Tobirama actions started the event and it ended with Sarutobi's mistakes. Both of them are responsabile for it. Now it would also be nice of you to address the events as in the manga, the translation you linked:
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v65/c627/9.html
Read what he states. He does not make a affirmation of a fact. He states as a possibility. The words are "could say". His mistakes where to give Danzo a place to do things. Danzo had similar ideas as Tobirama even if he takes them to a hole new level.
Trying to take away Tobirama's fault in this is "factually" wrong. He had his part in it by alienating the Uchiha. That is what he did and you can't deny it.
Wikipedia as well. That link also works and here's a different translation:
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v65/c627/8.html
He even scorns his brother for his naivety in thinking that dreams will just come true as long as you have love.
Again, try to link me something. I can't go trough the entire Wikipedia to find what you are claiming now can I?
As for the link.. That is his opinion but. Hashirama's compassion is what got everybody working together now did it not? Even the Kages. What did Hashirama do? Bowed his head and begged. Even current Raikage admitted that something about this when he noticed Hashirama's flashback and remember what Naruto did.
He didn't bring peace. There were bigger, worse and much more terrifying wars after his time. Period. Temporary peace happens a lot in the Narutoverse.
And not I am thinking you did not read what I said:
He obviously did not bring eternal peace, that is impossible (emm well not for a manga I guess) but he did bring peace to an insane long war between Uchiha and Senju AND made peace at the Hokage meeting. He did bring an era of peace for some time.
So that would mean you need to read more carefully what you quote.. Now considering he could bring peace and keep it that way as he lived perhaps its the followers fault for not keeping it? Nobody can achieve eternal peace bud, NOBODY.
Again, don't meaninglessly try to prolong this as I'm not falling for it. You stated he accomplished nothing, which is factually wrong as he was the who allowed the leaf to continue existing. You also say he is cold and make him look like Lord Voldemort when he's not. And you even said that he controls and sacrifices people for his goals when he sacrificed himself for his team. And you're attributing his hard work to Hashirama by saying he could do it if he didn't die, thus, creating imaginary feats for him. Face it, you were wrong.
I am not prolonging anything. You are just unable to read and comprehend what I told you. He achieved nothing compared to Hashirama. Hashirama achieved so much Tobirama fails in comparison.
I am not giving him any "imaginary feats". Konoha was flourishing when he died, he broth peace and his ideas of what to do with Konoha was already made clear before he died. He just did not had time to make them but he wanted to do them. Those are not "imaginary" feats. Those are things he meant to do but run out of time.
Coming from the guy who only a while ago said he won't elaborate, but still insists on discussing. Again, xXan made it sound as if he brought eternal peace. He didn't. That's all I'm saying. As for what I'm dreaming about? Nothing. You just invented that for some reason. I never once said that he should or that I want him to achieve eternal peace. How you got all that from me saying "he didn't bring peace" is your problem. Also, stop replying to me. You already said that you don't want to elaborate on your opinion and that you don't consider me credible at all, so keep your word at least.
Perhaps you should not divert the argument with lies(or your inability to read what I post) and address what that guy asked. I never claimed "eternal peace" and I was clear enough what peace he got achieve.
