Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[kkck]

I see what you mean and I agree in that sense it would make Hatsu stronger, but there are two things I to mention with that. Firstly; Ken is an incredibly difficult technique, it takes an enormous time to increase Ken sustainability time. If we can take Biscuits´estimations and Gon´s estimations as true then; 1 month of training of Ren = +10 minutes of Ren = +1 minute of Ken, but since Gon and Killua are protagonists AND incredibly talented, they somehow defy those computations, despite that let´s take the computations as true. Secondly; in Knuckle´s aura numbers explanation Ken is considered a very advanced technique, in his thoughts Ken consumes aura much faster than Ten or Ren. From those two points it leads to my opinion that Ken sacrifices efficiency for conveniency AND is incredibly hard to attain, let alone durable. You make your Hatsu stronger but it costs you more aura than usual (in the efficiency POV, not just the amount POV) and the effect making the Hatsu stronger comes from Ren (at least I think). This makes Ken viable technique ONLY for combat, in noncombat situations I would say people would just concentrate on Ren; three hours of Ren > 30 minutes of Ken. So to reiterate Ken does make Hatsu stronger but when taking into account the aura involved, it actually makes Hatsu worse (in the sense that Hatsu doesn´t get the boost it would get in normal situations).

I get and agree with the Transmuters part, but the Emitter part? I don´t think Ken is involved. Razors´ ability could use explanation here. I don´t know how accurate Hunterpedia (the wikia) is, but there is something missing. Razor must be also using Transmuting. If he were using Conjuring then his dolls wouldn´t be Emission dolls and just by using Emission he wouldn´t get their looks, voices, shapes so he must be using Transmuting. Razor then uses Ren, transmutes that into dolls, cuts them off and Manipulates them from distance.........but since they are an aura......then he must retain them manually....with Ten..... which makes it Ken........ so uh.. yeah you´re right here too.

As a sidenote, that Razor example got me thinking, what if Killua uses the electricity to recharge aura and not the electricity. If Razor can Transmute his dolls back into aura, then Killua should be able to Transmute his electricity back into aura. That would mean if killua finds an electricity source similar to his electricity, he should be able to transmute that electricity into his aura for him to use.

I think you are confused about something. Ken is not actually stronger than ren, ken is simply an application of ren where said ren is maintained over a long period of time. Gon and killua did not really defy that either. They had bisk guiding them through the whole thing back then and her ability allowed them to do sleep the equivalent of 8 hours in 30 minutes. In conjunction with their talent they made that month be worth way more than it would have been worth otherwise, they had a few months worth of training all in all. Of course, their talent did help. Still, the end issue is that this is not a "ren or ken" situation but rather its "ken or ken". A short burst of aura (ren) is impractical and ten would not produce even enough aura to defend even from someone using ken, let along more advanced techniques. Which is why producing a high level nen user seems to take somewhere in the vecinity of a decade worth of training..... I guess it is possible to simply use ren to defend but I would argue there are risks to it. You'd have to time it perfectly to defend from attacks but if you miss you'd take a lot of damage. Ultimately ken (and ryu) are the foundation of nen combat, at least in the way gon and killua learned it, there is no way around it.

Isn't that the implication so far? I don't think killua has an option to recharge electricity but not nen.... Transmuters don't actually produce elements or whatever they transmute their nen into, they simply have nen look like those things. In that regard killua's nen is not actually electricity, it simply has the look and feel of it but it is still nen.

 

[tupadre97]

@Master Oz
The only way you would die from nen exhaustion would be if your pores were awoken and you never used ten. When they are unawakened they leak normally and even when you learn ten they still leak just slower, which is why it retains your youth for longer. And the god letters are the symbols that made the pirate boxers hastu stronger in the ring in greed island. They are also what ging put on that metal box and tape he left for gon, and what was on the promise band wing made for gon that snapped when he used nen. We have no idea how they work similarly to how we don't know how In works. But seeing how you don't even no what they are or even how ten works for that matter you clearly don't understand nen so again there is no reason for us to debate this.

 

[Master OZ]

I think you are confused about something. Ken is not actually stronger than ren, ken is simply an application of ren where said ren is maintained over a long period of time. Gon and killua did not really defy that either. They had bisk guiding them through the whole thing back then and her ability allowed them to do sleep the equivalent of 8 hours in 30 minutes. In conjunction with their talent they made that month be worth way more than it would have been worth otherwise, they had a few months worth of training all in all. Of course, their talent did help. Still, the end issue is that this is not a "ren or ken" situation but rather its "ken or ken". A short burst of aura (ren) is impractical and ten would not produce even enough aura to defend even from someone using ken, let along more advanced techniques. Which is why producing a high level nen user seems to take somewhere in the vecinity of a decade worth of training..... I guess it is possible to simply use ren to defend but I would argue there are risks to it. You'd have to time it perfectly to defend from attacks but if you miss you'd take a lot of damage. Ultimately ken (and ryu) are the foundation of nen combat, at least in the way gon and killua learned it, there is no way around it.

Isn't that the implication so far? I don't think killua has an option to recharge electricity but not nen.... Transmuters don't actually produce elements or whatever they transmute their nen into, they simply have nen look like those things. In that regard killua's nen is not actually electricity, it simply has the look and feel of it but it is still nen.

Ken should be a bit stronger than Ren. With Ren you bring up more aura than usual and it dissipates. On the page you used there is no indication of Ten used, Ken is just showed as keeping your Ren on, but if Ten is indeed involved (and it should be since it is defined as such), then the surface of Gon´s aura on that page should be similar to a line, Ken thus would be a controlled and more contained Ren - thus stronger than Ren, but only because of condensation. In the new anime (I know it does not constitute a proof, since that anime is not very consistent in Nen portrayal) Gon´s aura´s outline is a line indicating a Ten usage (ep 64, around 5:40).

Unless my math or starting data is wrong, let´s suppose in that month they get 2 months and a half worth of training thanks to Biscuit cheating sleeping time. That would mean their Ren should have been lengthened by 25 minutes, but they start at around 55 minutes mark and end up overcoming 3 hours mark with a generous power left. That would make their increase roughly 125 minutes. They got roughly 5 times worth out of that training than they should have, which is, in my opinion (and in the end a matter of opinion), defying to say the least.

Let me ask you a question, if they can maintain Ren over 3 hours and Ken only for 30 minutes, why is it that they should use Ken and not Ren if the boost is the same (I know you touched upon that in your post but...)? I would answer that because Ren is not under their control, is uneven (the spiky surface is an indication of that) and dissipates aura needlessly into the air, whereas Ken retains aura, evens the surface, makes aura more condensed - thus more useful for defense.

Well Killua transmutes his aura into electricity but it still is his aura, but transmuting real electricity into aura is in my opinion a feat on a completely different level. Not taking into account that, of all kinds of electric currents there are, Killua just happens to find one compatible with his ability? Well, I have already said in 348 chapter discussion (I don´t expect you to know that, just that I already posted similar thing before) that now I am convinced that Togashi approaches Nen functionally, so in that view it would make sense.

@Master Oz
The only way you would die from nen exhaustion would be if your pores were awoken and you never used ten. When they are unawakened they leak normally and even when you learn ten they still leak just slower, which is why it retains your youth for longer. And the god letters are the symbols that made the pirate boxers hastu stronger in the ring in greed island. They are also what ging put on that metal box and tape he left for gon, and what was on the promise band wing made for gon that snapped when he used nen. We have no idea how they work similarly to how we don't know how In works. But seeing how you don't even no what they are or even how ten works for that matter you clearly don't understand nen so again there is no reason for us to debate this.

Well your post said if you stop Zetsu all your pores are opened, because they are always opened, which is factually false and I illustrated that in my post. If all pores were opened all the time normal people would die, since they don´t know Ten. Hence the need of opening all your nodes to utilize Ten.

I knew about those, I just didn´t know they were called God letters (aren´t they called sacred symbols in Viz translation?). And we know how they work - you infuse the paint with Nen over a long period of time. If the Nen enhancing properties come from the signs then there would be no need to infuse the paint with Nen.

This is the second time you use that passive aggressive tone with me. The next time you use that, I will ignore any points and remarks you make.

 

[kkck]

Ken should be a bit stronger than Ren. With Ren you bring up more aura than usual and it dissipates. On the page you used there is no indication of Ten used, Ken is just showed as keeping your Ren on, but if Ten is indeed involved (and it should be since it is defined as such), then the surface of Gon´s aura on that page should be similar to a line, Ken thus would be a controlled and more contained Ren - thus stronger than Ren, but only because of condensation. In the new anime (I know it does not constitute a proof, since that anime is not very consistent in Nen portrayal) Gon´s aura´s outline is a line indicating a Ten usage (ep 64, around 5:40).

Ten is irrelevant here, it never comes into play. Ken is simply an state where ren is maintained, nothing else. There is no reason for us to think there would be a difference in output or condensation when it comes to either technique. Its better to simply base of the manga.

Let me ask you a question, if they can maintain Ren over 3 hours and Ken only for 30 minutes, why is it that they should use Ken and not Ren if the boost is the same (I know you touched upon that in your post but...)? I would answer that because Ren is not under their control, is uneven (the spiky surface is an indication of that) and dissipates aura needlessly into the air, whereas Ken retains aura, evens the surface, makes aura more condensed - thus more useful for defense.

I would argue it is because they risk themselves getting hit while in ten. The purpose of ken is to have a high amount of aura covering their bodies most of the time. Ten while less taxing is also a less efficient defense. In the manga ren and ken have the same look, dunno about the anime. If they only use ren they risk getting hit while not in ren which is deadly. More so, building ren can take time too. Not too much but in a fight it can be crucial.

Well Killua transmutes his aura into electricity but it still is his aura, but transmuting real electricity into aura is in my opinion a feat on a completely different level. Not taking into account that, of all kinds of electric currents there are, Killua just happens to find one compatible with his ability? Well, I have already said in 348 chapter discussion (I don´t expect you to know that, just that I already posted similar thing before) that now I am convinced that Togashi approaches Nen functionally, so in that view it would make sense.

We should just take that as is... I don't think we can make sense of that on our own lol.

 

[Master OZ]

Ten is irrelevant here, it never comes into play. Ken is simply an state where ren is maintained, nothing else. There is no reason for us to think there would be a difference in output or condensation when it comes to either technique. Its better to simply base of the manga.

We should just take that as is... I don't think we can make sense of that on our own lol.

I think I will cause you some illness just from reading this but here goes.

I feel really conflicted here. If Ken is stated as an application of Ren and Ten and (on the same page!, the one you referenced) is described as just a maintaining of Ren, then for me that goes against each other. Either Ten does not come into play at all and then it goes against the first explanation or it does come into play and then it goes against the second explanation (and maybe representation). Going one step further in the no Ten relevance why is "keeping" one´s Ren 10 times aura demanding than keeping "Renning" off then? What IS the qualitative difference between maintaining your Ren and keeping "Renning" off?

You know I hope after reading that no one will go through manga and try counting volume of aura shifted around in Ken and Ryuu just to prove you either wrong or true.

Agreed.

I would argue it is because they risk themselves getting hit while in ten. The purpose of ken is to have a high amount of aura covering their bodies most of the time. Ten while less taxing is also a less efficient defense. In the manga ren and ken have the same look, dunno about the anime. If they only use ren they risk getting hit while not in ren which is deadly. More so, building ren can take time too. Not too much but in a fight it can be crucial.

I read this paragraph at least 5 times and I stil don´t think that it answered my original question; If they can maintain Ren over 3 hours and Ken only for 30 minutes, why is it that they should use Ken and not Ren if the boost is the same?. I think you got Ten mixed up there with Ren in my question, but i will address what I can.

Ren does that too and they can do it much longer than Ken.

I can´t wrap my head around that sentence, really. Either it is a Tautology or there is something missing (at least for me).

Well, I think even without taking into account the anime portrayal it follows that if Ken is just maintaining one´s Ren, then Ren and Ken should be of equal speed, since the source is one and the same - Ren, no?

 

[kkck]

I think I will cause you some illness just from reading this but here goes.

I feel really conflicted here. If Ken is stated as an application of Ren and Ten and (on the same page!, the one you referenced) is described as just a maintaining of Ren, then for me that goes against each other. Either Ten does not come into play at all and then it goes against the first explanation or it does come into play and then it goes against the second explanation (and maybe representation). Going one step further in the no Ten relevance why is "keeping" one´s Ren 10 times aura demanding than keeping "Renning" off then? What IS the qualitative difference between maintaining your Ren and keeping "Renning" off?

You know I hope after reading that no one will go through manga and try counting volume of aura shifted around in Ken and Ryuu just to prove you either wrong or true.

Agreed.



I read this paragraph at least 5 times and I stil don´t think that it answered my original question; If they can maintain Ren over 3 hours and Ken only for 30 minutes, why is it that they should use Ken and not Ren if the boost is the same?. I think you got Ten mixed up there with Ren in my question, but i will address what I can.

Ren does that too and they can do it much longer than Ken.

I can´t wrap my head around that sentence, really. Either it is a Tautology or there is something missing (at least for me).

Well, I think even without taking into account the anime portrayal it follows that if Ken is just maintaining one´s Ren, then Ren and Ken should be of equal speed, since the source is one and the same - Ren, no?

Well, ren to begin with is considered an application of ten. It comes down to specific parts of it. Ten is about aura not leaking away and keeping it around you. Ren is about having your maximum aura output not leak away too. Ken is about maintaining ren which implies aura not just leaking away which is the principle of ten.

Isn't ren simply a burst of nen? I was under the impression that it was a short term thing by definition. Ken in turns breaks that barrier and works under the principle of maintaining it over a long period of time.

Didn't the manga say that the reason ken lasted less in battle was because in battle many other factors came into play? During training gon and killua remained basically stationary but while fighting they move around and have to concentrate and whatnot.

 

[Master OZ]

Well, ren to begin with is considered an application of ten. It comes down to specific parts of it. Ten is about aura not leaking away and keeping it around you. Ren is about having your maximum aura output not leak away too. Ken is about maintaining ren which implies aura not just leaking away which is the principle of ten.

Ren is not an application of Ten. It is one of the 4 main techniques alongside Ten, Zetsu and Hatsu. Ren is all about actualizing more aura, but it will leak away. If Ren stopped the leakage of aura, then Ken wouldn´t be called Ken (it would be just Ren)- since the added value of Ken from just a Ren is the fact that it won´t leak away (thanks to the Ten).

Isn't ren simply a burst of nen? I was under the impression that it was a short term thing by definition. Ken in turns breaks that barrier and works under the principle of maintaining it over a long period of time.

Well Ren is indeed short but if Killua and Gon can learn to keep Renning off for three hours then in that case it is no longer a short burst of Nen. Ken´s length is directly dependent on Ren´s length because the naming "Ken" refers to special simultaneous use of Ten and Ren, while another simultaneous use of Ten and Ren is referred to as "En" to differentiate it from "Ken".

Didn't the manga say that the reason ken lasted less in battle was because in battle many other factors came into play? During training gon and killua remained basically stationary but while fighting they move around and have to concentrate and whatnot.

I think I misunderstood your point. "building your ren can take time" - how fast ren comes out; It comes out really quickly. "last in battle" - duration in battle; Yes indeed it lasts much less because of emotions, stamina is also used for other things (jumping around, blocking, punching, kicking, etc.).

 

[Ener9y]

^ Ren is in fact the burst of aura, and Ten is maintaining it around the body. Both Ken and En are applications of Ten and Ren. The difference between Ken and En is the range they cover. In Ken, Ten maintains the Ren close to the body for defence; while in En, Ten maintains the Ren as far as possible from the body to sense objects. Ken gotta be as difficult to keep as Ren, if not easier. In Ren, you have to keep bursting aura; as you keeping letting out aura, you'll eventually get exhausted. But in Ken, you maintain the aura, you won't have to keep bursting at the same rate; there's a lesser chance to get exhausted from Ken than Ren.


I wonder why Knuckle's Potclean have instantaneously appeared from no where near Pouf when Knuckle hit his copy at the palace when the King was in his way to it. He can't be emitting his aura all the way to the real Pouf that fast.
I have a theory but let me first see what your thoughts are on that.

 

[kkck]

Ren is not an application of Ten. It is one of the 4 main techniques alongside Ten, Zetsu and Hatsu. Ren is all about actualizing more aura, but it will leak away. If Ren stopped the leakage of aura, then Ken wouldn´t be called Ken (it would be just Ren)- since the added value of Ken from just a Ren is the fact that it won´t leak away (thanks to the Ten).

Well Ren is indeed short but if Killua and Gon can learn to keep Renning off for three hours then in that case it is no longer a short burst of Nen. Ken´s length is directly dependent on Ren´s length because the naming "Ken" refers to special simultaneous use of Ten and Ren, while another simultaneous use of Ten and Ren is referred to as "En" to differentiate it from "Ken".

I think I misunderstood your point. "building your ren can take time" - how fast ren comes out; It comes out really quickly. "last in battle" - duration in battle; Yes indeed it lasts much less because of emotions, stamina is also used for other things (jumping around, blocking, punching, kicking, etc.).

Ren being an application of ten is something directly stated in the manga.

"Renning" is the exact same thing as ken though. The manga specifically says ken is a sustained ren, nothing else.I showed the link for that earlier.

 

[Ener9y]

This is from the Databook:

Ren (練, Refine; Enhance) is a direct application of Ten. Since a user is capable of keeping aura from leaking away from the body, it's also possible for them to produce more aura around themselves without having to worry about losing it. Ren focuses on outputting a high amount of aura and keeping it on the body, expanding the size and intensity of it. If Ten is considered to be purely defensive, then Ren typically what is used for offense. This increases the user's physical strength and durability and provides a large pool of aura for any advanced techniques or individual skills they decide to use.

I hope that this helped.

 

[Master OZ]

^ Ren is in fact the burst of aura, and Ten is maintaining it around the body. Both Ken and En are applications of Ten and Ren. The difference between Ken and En is the range they cover. In Ken, Ten maintains the Ren close to the body for defence; while in En, Ten maintains the Ren as far as possible from the body to sense objects. Ken gotta be as difficult to keep as Ren, if not easier. In Ren, you have to keep bursting aura; as you keeping letting out aura, you'll eventually get exhausted. But in Ken, you maintain the aura, you won't have to keep bursting at the same rate; there's a lesser chance to get exhausted from Ken than Ren.


I wonder why Knuckle's Potclean have instantaneously appeared from no where near Pouf when Knuckle hit his copy at the palace when the King was in his way to it. He can't be emitting his aura all the way to the real Pouf that fast.
I have a theory but let me first see what your thoughts are on that.

And in the density because if the amount they bring up is the same, then with En´s much bigger range the aura is more dispersed. Also En probably has no direct battle application (detection is not really direct application)

In the light of the recent Kurapika revelation - it works because Knuckle wanted it to work like that. Sorry if I am not much of a help there. (Well my real thought on that would be that Potclean attaches itself to existence itself, so that means every Pouf´s clone should have had Potclean and if one Pouf realization is in the range, then other Pouf realizations should have the Potclean up, because all of them constitute existence called "Pouf")

Ren being an application of ten is something directly stated in the manga.

"Renning" is the exact same thing as ken though. The manga specifically says ken is a sustained ren, nothing else.I showed the link for that earlier.

This is the biggest bomb here. I was furiously rereading relevant pages but either I am blind or I am rereading wrong parts. Could somebody direct me to the page where Ren is stated as a direct application of Ten? no databook please - I have only so much money.

If what you are saying is true the on one hand that solves our discussion about Ken (as I am working on wrong grounds) but on the other hand potentially creates some disturbing consequences that I would have to think about.

Also if true, then the laugh is on me arrogantly blowing my horn here and being in the wrong all the time (quadruple facepalm, blush, search for a hole to hide me from this shame).

This is from the Databook:



I hope that this helped.

Welp, that is, as they call it, it.

 

[Fox666]

I wonder why Knuckle's Potclean have instantaneously appeared from no where near Pouf when Knuckle hit his copy at the palace when the King was in his way to it. He can't be emitting his aura all the way to the real Pouf that fast.

Nem = magic :/ Potclean appeared next to Pouf because that's how it works.

 

[tupadre97]

^ Ren is in fact the burst of aura, and Ten is maintaining it around the body. Both Ken and En are applications of Ten and Ren. The difference between Ken and En is the range they cover. In Ken, Ten maintains the Ren close to the body for defence; while in En, Ten maintains the Ren as far as possible from the body to sense objects. Ken gotta be as difficult to keep as Ren, if not easier. In Ren, you have to keep bursting aura; as you keeping letting out aura, you'll eventually get exhausted. But in Ken, you maintain the aura, you won't have to keep bursting at the same rate; there's a lesser chance to get exhausted from Ken than Ren.


I wonder why Knuckle's Potclean have instantaneously appeared from no where near Pouf when Knuckle hit his copy at the palace when the King was in his way to it. He can't be emitting his aura all the way to the real Pouf that fast.
I have a theory but let me first see what your thoughts are on that.

Of course his nen could get there that fast. Remember how emitters can teleport their nen? That must be what knuckle did.

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

Well your post said if you stop Zetsu all your pores are opened, because they are always opened, which is factually false and I illustrated that in my post. If all pores were opened all the time normal people would die, since they don´t know Ten. Hence the need of opening all your nodes to utilize Ten.

I knew about those, I just didn´t know they were called God letters (aren´t they called sacred symbols in Viz translation?). And we know how they work - you infuse the paint with Nen over a long period of time. If the Nen enhancing properties come from the signs then there would be no need to infuse the paint with Nen.

This is the second time you use that passive aggressive tone with me. The next time you use that, I will ignore any points and remarks you make.

Are you even paying attention to whats in my posts? Do you not understand the difference between having your aura pores awoken and unwoken? Because you keep asserting that everyones aura most be awoke and they must all be using ten when that is clearly not the case. If your aura has not been awoke then your aura pores are closed but nen still leaks thru, only when they are awoke do you need to use ten and zetsu.

As for the god letters imeant we dont know the exact mechanics of how they work just like In and i dont see you saying they are bs so how is In still bs just bcuz we dont know the exact mechanics behind it.

 

[Ener9y]

In the light of the recent Kurapika revelation - it works because Knuckle wanted it to work like that. Sorry if I am not much of a help there. (Well my real thought on that would be that Potclean attaches itself to existence itself, so that means every Pouf´s clone should have had Potclean and if one Pouf realization is in the range, then other Pouf realizations should have the Potclean up, because all of them constitute existence called "Pouf").

First of all, I don't think it happened just because Knuckle intended it to work that way; it just doesn't fit. Secondly, I'm sure the Potclean was only on the real Pouf, the clones didn't have it on them. And sorry if the Databook's quote didn't help, I don't know about a page saying so.

Nem = magic :/ Potclean appeared next to Pouf because that's how it works.

Nem = Magic ? Nen = Aura, I don't know about Nem.

Of course his nen could get there that fast. Remember how emitters can teleport their nen? That must be what knuckle did

Yeah, but that fast? I doubt it.

 

[Master OZ]

Of course his nen could get there that fast. Remember how emitters can teleport their nen? That must be what knuckle did.

That would imply that Knuckle sends his Nen consciously and at all times. No he does not, it is automatic. Emitters can´t teleport their Nen per se, they can maintain and control their aura after separation from the main body.

Are you even paying attention to whats in my posts?

Yes, I am and so far I have observed that there is a duality in your posts - the posts you write and the posts you think you write. Read the stuff you wrote because I am responding to what you wrote not what you think you wrote.

Do you not understand the difference between having your aura pores awoken and unwoken?

Aura pores are either close or open - if that is what you mean. Or you might mean that Nen users learn to manipulate these pores how to close them for Zetsu or open them for Ten - if THAT is what you mean.

Because you keep asserting that everyones aura most be awoke and they must all be using ten when that is clearly not the case.

Everyone has aura, aura keeps leaking from the bodies of EVERY single human. Nen users learn to retain the leakage through Ten or stop the leakage outside by Zetsu.
NO assertion about awoken aura at all.

If your aura has not been awoke then your aura pores are closed but nen still leaks thru, only when they are awoke do you need to use ten and zetsu.

If aura can leak through closed pores then Zetsu would be useless, because in Zetsu all nodes are closed. THE whole point of closing your nodes is to stop leakage of aura outside. Also ad bold; if "they" refers to aura, then the sentence is correct, but if "they" refers to nodes, then you need to specify what it means because that doesn´t make sense on its own.

As for the god letters imeant we dont know the exact mechanics of how they work just like In and i dont see you saying they are bs so how is In still bs just bcuz we dont know the exact mechanics behind it.

Sacred symbols will, in my opinion, play a huge part in upcoming arcs. There will be a lot of time to analyze them when we are properly introduced to them. The reason I don´t talk about them is also the fact that they aren´t important so far (the instances you brought up are insignificant) The reason In IS bs (as you said) is the fact that In is an application of Zetsu, which is closing your pores to stop the leakage of aura. How that works for Hisoka´s Elastic Love (if he closes his nodes, then how can he actualize and transmute his aura to Rubber/Gum), or Kurapika´s chains (how does closing one´s nodes affect an already conjured and self-sustainable object)?

 

[tupadre97]

That would imply that Knuckle sends his Nen consciously and at all times. No he does not, it is automatic. Emitters can´t teleport their Nen per se, they can maintain and control their aura after separation from the main body.

I agree with you on this one, i don't thinke he consciously teleports APR it just happens automatically as because of how his ability just works.

Yes, I am and so far I have observed that there is a duality in your posts - the posts you write and the posts you think you write. Read the stuff you wrote because I am responding to what you wrote not what you think you wrote.

Aura pores are either close or open - if that is what you mean. Or you might mean that Nen users learn to manipulate these pores how to close them for Zetsu or open them for Ten - if THAT is what you mean.

Everyone has aura, aura keeps leaking from the bodies of EVERY single human. Nen users learn to retain the leakage through Ten or stop the leakage outside by Zetsu.
NO assertion about awoken aura at all.

If aura can leak through closed pores then Zetsu would be useless, because in Zetsu all nodes are closed. THE whole point of closing your nodes is to stop leakage of aura outside. Also ad bold; if "they" refers to aura, then the sentence is correct, but if "they" refers to nodes, then you need to specify what it means because that doesn´t make sense on its own.

By "they" I meant the aura nodes being awoken. But now I realize that it is different depending on how you learn nen. If you nen is initiated by another nen master then you will never have to consciously open them, all you have to do is control the leakage with Ten. However if you meditate and unlock them naturally then that is technically manipulating and opening your own pores. But that is not Ten and only applies if you meditate to unlock your nen like Netero. There is no technique for opening your own nodes consciously its just called "meditation". And it's probably why Netero's nen control was so amazing, because he spent years meditating to unlock his nen and has deeper nen control than someone you was initiated like Gon or Killua.

Sacred symbols will, in my opinion, play a huge part in upcoming arcs. There will be a lot of time to analyze them when we are properly introduced to them. The reason I don´t talk about them is also the fact that they aren´t important so far (the instances you brought up are insignificant) The reason In IS bs (as you said) is the fact that In is an application of Zetsu, which is closing your pores to stop the leakage of aura. How that works for Hisoka´s Elastic Love (if he closes his nodes, then how can he actualize and transmute his aura to Rubber/Gum), or Kurapika´s chains (how does closing one´s nodes affect an already conjured and self-sustainable object)?

Even though In is supposedly an advance application of zetsu I think it is really just the half application of zetsu. Maybe If you only close your aura nodes halfway or like 70 or 80 percent closed it like make it undetectable from other nen users unless they use gyo. The same way regular zetsu suppresses the energy and emotion you emit thru your nen making it harder to detect but idk togashi needs to explain that one.

As for the god letters yeah I do think they will be expanded upon in the dark continent arc, maybe if they find that ancient civilization that was there they will find something.

 

[Master OZ]

By "they" I meant the aura nodes being awoken. But now I realize that it is different depending on how you learn nen. If you nen is initiated by another nen master then you will never have to consciously open them, all you have to do is control the leakage with Ten. However if you meditate and unlock them naturally then that is technically manipulating and opening your own pores. But that is not Ten and only applies if you meditate to unlock your nen like Netero. There is no technique for opening your own nodes consciously its just called "meditation". And it's probably why Netero's nen control was so amazing, because he spent years meditating to unlock his nen and has deeper nen control than someone you was initiated like Gon or Killua.

The one thing that bothers me is that Wing is very skillful, he successfully opened the nodes for Killua and Gon. The question Killua posed still stands; If you can achieve Ten faster, then why not? It is known that Wing opted for meditation method with Zushi and he also lamented that they couldn´t do the same with Killua and Gon. There must be something that makes the meditation more desirable as far as Nen goes. Maybe it is like you describe, maybe it is something else, but at this point one can only hope that we get an insight into it when (and if) we get to see Gon relearn Nen. It surely would be nice to have some nice and meaningful drawbacks to that forceful method though...

I have my opinion on that subject and you have yours and I´ll leave it at that, because we are going in circles and that leads to nowhere.

Even though In is supposedly an advance application of zetsu I think it is really just the half application of zetsu. Maybe If you only close your aura nodes halfway or like 70 or 80 percent closed it like make it undetectable from other nen users unless they use gyo. The same way regular zetsu suppresses the energy and emotion you emit thru your nen making it harder to detect but idk togashi needs to explain that one.

Even if it were possible (at this point it is not verified either way), it still would not explain In used on the chains.

He should but he won´t.

 

[Ener9y]

Meditation probably has its own techniques. Wing provoked Gon and Killua's nen-nodes to open, I think of it as a reflex; controlling the aura is the tricky part here (Ten). Gon and Killua didn't have the time to learn how to control aura the safe way. The baptism isn't safe because of two factors: the strength and the intentions of the performer. I guess that is linked to the amount of aura that's being used; if it's too small it may not provoke the nodes, if it's too large it may kill. There are three faces to control aura:

1. Stopping aura, Zetsu which involves closing all the nodes.
2. Bursting the aura, Ren which involves releasing huge amounts of aura.
3. Manipulating the aura, Ten which involves shaping the flow of aura to surround the body to make a shape similar to a barrier.

I'm deliberately avoiding talking about Hatsu here because I still haven't understood it fully.

And finally, "In" still remains a mystery - A huge mistake by Togashi, takes all meaning from nen. They say it's an applicatioon of Zetsu; not even close.

 

[Master OZ]

Meditation probably has its own techniques. Wing provoked Gon and Killua's nen-nodes to open, I think of it as a reflex; controlling the aura is the tricky part here (Ten). Gon and Killua didn't have the time to learn how to control aura the safe way. The baptism isn't safe because of two factors: the strength and the intentions of the performer. I guess that is linked to the amount of aura that's being used; if it's too small it may not provoke the nodes, if it's too large it may kill. There are three faces to control aura:

1. Stopping aura, Zetsu which involves closing all the nodes.
2. Bursting the aura, Ren which involves releasing huge amounts of aura.
3. Manipulating the aura, Ten which involves shaping the flow of aura to surround the body to make a shape similar to a barrier.

I'm deliberately avoiding talking about Hatsu here because I still haven't understood it fully.

And finally, "In" still remains a mystery - A huge mistake by Togashi, takes all meaning from nen. They say it's an applicatioon of Zetsu; not even close.

Yes but so far we haven´t seen any side effects that would stem from the technique itself rather than the user responsible for that Baptism (as we can in the case of Noob Hunter Trio).

From what I gather, I would add that even in the case of awakening by Wing, there was this serious concern of threatening leakage of aura. At that time their potential aura was really low so they risked utter exhaustion to say the least (in my opinion best conveyed in ´99 anime and lost on viewers in the new one).

You know that would be interesting if true. Just pure aura combat, like in DB(Z), although much better. But as shown in Zodiac ability conversations, the fourth facet of aura control (you wisely avoided talking about, but is undeniably a facet of aura control) becomes more and more prevalent (at the saddening expense of other three ones) - Hatsu. In the new batch of chapters the only Nen talks we have are about abilities - Hatsus. Monkey, when discussing his abilities (I just skimmed through mind you), notice that he only mentions his Hatsu - monkeys. He doen´t say that e.g. my En is 500 meters, I can do Ken for 12 hours straight or something else to that effect.

I agree it takes a lot of enjoyment of earlier chapters (still mad at Kurapika using In on chains to defeat Uvo), BUT let´s be optimistic here. If he won´t use In in the manga ever again, then we could get over that, couldn´t we.

 

[Ener9y]

We could, but is it gonna happen? I doubt it. In nen fights, outsmarting the opponent is a crucial factor; "In" is very useful in such circumstances. I don't think Togashi will stop using it.

On the other hand, I'm very curious about how Saiyuu's hatsu works. Would you care explaining more about it.