Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2014] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 7

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Leoat12

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I dont know if some of you even read WT up to the latest chapter to call it soon to be cancelled series. I cant spoil it but Im sure it will be back on mid(or higher, i hope)rank because its effing epic and exciting. And remember what Hattori sensei said?

Too bad, the hate on this series is strong in this community that WT fans words means nothing.(maybe because it got an early anime adaptation and they're jealous)
Put WT in the bottom 3 when its actual position is higher would be a disservice to a series with anime running. The editors want to promote the series, at least theoretically since they let Toei do what they did. We know very well that series in the bottom have risk of cancelation, I said that if it continues, it can be cancelled, it is true as far as I know.

Confuse criticism with hate, the worst problem here... I read World Trigger and it is interesting, but the rankings don't depend of World Trigger only, Jump never had so many successes at the same time and apparently World Trigger getting behind.
As for the early anime, it must be a joke given the crappy anime that Toei produced, but I will clarify this even so. Early animes are most of the time a bad thing, either for scarce material to do something faithful or for giving the manga to any studio and happen what happened with WT. So, I am sure that it is not my case and of anybody here.

I actually read it and I sincerely think the only actually really good chapter of this whole invasion arc was the last one, and it was mostly because it just means the end of the arc is near... Seriously, WT's biggest problem imo is that it just takes way too many chapters for something actually important to happen, I think we could easily cut like at least 1/3 of the chapters and get to the same place without losing much info
Also, as Stark said, criticizing a series doesn't mean you hate it, it just means you disagree with how some things are done in it
I'm in chapter 65 now (last scan here) and I am starting to see what you're saying, the author could really shorten some things to make it more interesting. It is not bad, but it is not enough to make a huge success.
 

Felcis

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To be quite frank, the invasion-arc of "World Trigger" might be one of the best large battle-arcs I've ever seen in any shonen action-manga. Well-paced (non of the fights have taken very long and they weren't hindered by unnecessary explanations), well-written (GREAT strategy, both on a combat and overarching level, and impressive character-development through few words and subtle actions) and constant tension through the countdown and the constantly shifting combatants. It was rather long, yes, but if it really ends next week it would be perfect for a first (and hopefully not last) large arc.
That being said, I'm not all too surprised about the rather unstable rankings, especially with the last few weeks. We shouldn't forget that the core readership of WSJ mostly consists of teens who might not appreciate good storytelling and intelligent fight-strategy as much as they hope for things like over-the-top actions/powers, silly humor and fanservice (both in terms of popular character-fanwankery and ecchi). The chapters ranked in the bot5 were 70&71 (right?). 70 was mostly a setup-chapter with not much happening and 71, while concluding the amazing Enedora-fight, didn't feature any of the fan-favorites and instead focussed on side-characters that aren't all that popular. While many consider this well-balanced spotlight a big strength of the mangas writing, it might not be the best way secure steady rankings with the WSJ-readership.

tl;dr: The two low-ranked chapters were high in quality but low in events and popular characters. It wouldn't surprise me if the rankings bounced back up as soon as the action focusses back on Osamu, Yuuma and Miwa.
No need to panic or foresee cancelation.

I'm more concerned with "Sporting Salts" surviving. It might be the first comedy-heavy manga in WSJ I enjoyed in a long time but I am not sure if it can survive in that magazine with that kind of theme.
 

Leoat12

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The statement "the core readership of WSJ mostly consists of teens" was proved wrong here many time, Shueisha Media Guide says exactly the opposite.
Isn't it what we're saying? That the chapters can be low in events and should be better utilized?
 

Felcis

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The statement "the core readership of WSJ mostly consists of teens" was proved wrong here many time, Shueisha Media Guide says exactly the opposite.
Source? A quick web-search says that over 60% of the readership was below 14years old in 2009. I would be surprised if that changed that much in 5 years.
I also remember someone in this forum saying that the rankings are always weighed towards their official core audience (male, 10-18). Granted, that was many years ago and I may misremember it and be plain wrong on that.

Isn't it what we're saying? That the chapters can be low in events and should be better utilized?
I wanted to point out that it's not really a "flaw" of the quality of the story, but rather a problem of the manga in perspective to it's target audience. Also, more importantly, I don't see those chapters as "useless/easily cutable" but as important setup and well written conclusions to certain storylines within the arc. They are necessary, even if they don't bring in the best weekly ratings. Said ratings will most likely go back up, as soon as the manga returns to the more popular parts.


Edit: Okay, I think I found the study you were referring to. That one still says that over 50% of the audience is below 20, so my statement was technically correct. :P
Additionaly I would assume that the teens are more likely to regulary participate in the rankings, considering they got more free time at their disposal.
 
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SharkBait

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Edit: Okay, I think I found the study you were referring to. That one still says that over 50% of the audience is below 20, so my statement was technically correct. :P
Additionaly I would assume that the teens are more likely to regulary participate in the rankings, considering they got more free time at their disposal.
I dont understand this assumption, it isnt like it takes a considerable portion of time to send in a card, we also dont know if a JPN teenager is truly busier or less busier than a working adult, I thought their studies and clubs are pretty rigorous?
 

Leoat12

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Source? A quick web-search says that over 60% of the readership was below 14years old in 2009. I would be surprised if that changed that much in 5 years.
I also remember someone in this forum saying that the rankings are always weighed towards their official core audience (male, 10-18). Granted, that was many years ago and I may misremember it and be plain wrong on that.


I wanted to point out that it's not really a "flaw" of the quality of the story, but rather a problem of the manga in perspective to it's target audience. Also, more importantly, I don't see those chapters as "useless/easily cutable" but as important setup and well written conclusions to certain storylines within the arc. They are necessary, even if they don't bring in the best weekly ratings. Said ratings will most likely go back up, as soon as the manga returns to the more popular parts.


Edit: Okay, I think I found the study you were referring to. That one still says that over 50% of the audience is below 20, so my statement was technically correct. :P
Additionaly I would assume that the teens are more likely to regulary participate in the rankings, considering they got more free time at their disposal.
The source: http://adnavi.shueisha.co.jp/mediaguide/2014/pdf/boys.pdf
60% is above 16 years old and 49% above 18 years. With 16 years people already know how to differentiate a good and bad storytelling (I could say earlier than this, but let's put it high) even more in Japan where children are born with mangas in hand. World Trigger is very easy to understand as well.
I don't remember anyone saying such a thing. Statistically speaking, they should make a sample that could represent the readers, if they do a sample with only 10-18 years readers, it would not represent the body of readers, it would be a biased sample, they were ignoring 49% of their readers(!).

I don't think so. It happened with Naruto as well and people complained a lot, people above or below my age. As I said earlier, the rankings don't depend of WT alone, the other series may have better chapters. It has to improve, World Trigger is trying to do something that One Piece does pretty well, arc with many scenarios in a large world.
 
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James Rye

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The source: http://adnavi.shueisha.co.jp/mediaguide/2014/pdf/boys.pdf
60% is above 16 years old and 49% above 18 years. With 16 years people already know how to differentiate a good and bad storytelling (I could say earlier than this, but let's put it high) even more in Japan where children are born with mangas in hand. World Trigger is very easy to understand as well.
I don't remember anyone saying such a thing. Statistically speaking, they should make a sample that could represent the readers, if they do a sample with only 10-18 years readers, it would not represent the body of readers, it would be a biased sample, they were ignoring 49% of their readers(!).

I don't think so. It happened with Naruto as well and people complained a lot, people above or below my age. As I said earlier, the rankings don't depend of WT alone, the other series may have better chapters. It has to improve, World Trigger is trying to do something that One Piece does pretty well, arc with many scenarios in a large world.
It's not like WT sells superbadly with only 20k and that's it, so quite some of Jump's reader might have WT in their manga shelves. 150k per volume might be nothing compared to other much more succesful mangas, but it is still something. if you rank high but still sell just around 20k per volume after couple months then that's much worse than ranking badly but still selling decently. I mean, Bleach could be on the very last place for like 6 months straight and nobody at Jump would give a care as long as it sells 300k+ per volumes and gets its merchandise sold and such.

WT might go higher in ranks the next weeks when we get to the chapters rankings who are more about the main characters and less about the side-ones. We had chapters filled with only B-agents and those ranked lowly but I wouldn't call those bad in story telling or action as it showed that even B-agents can take down an elite warrior with the right plan and ressources and people helping out. I remember that in an interview it was said that original Tachikawa Kei was supposed to defeat the first humanoid Neighbor and that got changed later into what we have read.

I like how WT tries to mix what seems stuff from Naruto, a "home homebase/city" with an army training for defending+attacking, from Bleach, attackers from outside of earth's realm with unearthly technology, and from One Piece, a large world with many different looking nations to provide lots of arcs and scenarios.

Naruto was always on one continent, so while it felt big it never felt as large like One Piece's Grand line with its fantastic and very differently looking island, evengoing up to the sky or under the sea. And while Bleach had three realms most of them weren't very ecxciting looking. I still remember how disppointed I was of the "wasteland" where the Hollows were, just sand and couple rocks and ruins everywhere. WT with the first couple "nations" it introduced we already got two strong ones with Aftkratol who's a military superpower feared in the eighborhood, Kion an iceworld known for strong defenses, a sea nation called Liberi and a grassland nation using trion calvary Leoforio. With Aftkratol being the first to attack on the first day of ten we can be sure that the other nations might try their hands as well in those 9 days left. Or that Border will go on the counterattack and we get to see a neighboorhood world for the first time.

It's why I'm hoping WT won't become the next Medaka Box but can continue to go on for a bit longer. I would like to see where it will go on from now,especially now that the invasion arc ended with the latest chapter.
 

Leoat12

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It's not like WT sells superbadly with only 20k and that's it, so quite some of Jump's reader might have WT in their manga shelves. 150k per volume might be nothing compared to other much more succesful mangas, but it is still something. if you rank high but still sell just around 20k per volume after couple months then that's much worse than ranking badly but still selling decently. I mean, Bleach could be on the very last place for like 6 months straight and nobody at Jump would give a care as long as it sells 300k+ per volumes and gets its merchandise sold and such.

WT might go higher in ranks the next weeks when we get to the chapters rankings who are more about the main characters and less about the side-ones. We had chapters filled with only B-agents and those ranked lowly but I wouldn't call those bad in story telling or action as it showed that even B-agents can take down an elite warrior with the right plan and ressources and people helping out. I remember that in an interview it was said that original Tachikawa Kei was supposed to defeat the first humanoid Neighbor and that got changed later into what we have read.
New series tends to be cancelled if they go bad in the magazine, regardless its sales. There were series that sold 50~60k in their first volume and they were cancelled even so because of bad rankings. You cannot compare Bleach with World Trigger for obvious reasons, one is a worldwide renowned series that in its best ages almost reached 1 million of copies sold per volume, and the other is a fairly new series that sells 150k at best. Not so long ago we discusses here Bleach situation, it will not be cancelled, probably, but there will be a moment where the editors will say to Kubo accelarate the story.

We hope that it go higher in the next chapters. You guys are mistaking what I'm saying, I said "if it continues it may be cancelled", it is true because it doesn't have protections such as Bleach has, it is not a successful series with more than 10 years running. If the editors realize that the anime didn't have the expected reaction and that the rankings are too low, it will be cancelled like any other series in similar situation.
Since you talked about random characters, I shall give my opinion about them. The number of characters itself and the number without background that have in World Trigger is way too big IMO. Putting a dozen of characters aside, we don't know anything about the rest. It's hard to find interesting a fight of a character you don't know anything about,
 
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RafaFedKilla

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The source: http://adnavi.shueisha.co.jp/mediaguide/2014/pdf/boys.pdf
60% is above 16 years old and 49% above 18 years. With 16 years people already know how to differentiate a good and bad storytelling (I could say earlier than this, but let's put it high) even more in Japan where children are born with mangas in hand. World Trigger is very easy to understand as well.
I don't remember anyone saying such a thing. Statistically speaking, they should make a sample that could represent the readers, if they do a sample with only 10-18 years readers, it would not represent the body of readers, it would be a biased sample, they were ignoring 49% of their readers(!).

I don't think so. It happened with Naruto as well and people complained a lot, people above or below my age. As I said earlier, the rankings don't depend of WT alone, the other series may have better chapters. It has to improve, World Trigger is trying to do something that One Piece does pretty well, arc with many scenarios in a large world.
Those statistics really paint a picture of why Mitsukubi Condor failed in Jump. Does Shueisha have anything between Jump and Saikyou in terms of demographics?
 

Leoat12

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Those statistics really paint a picture of why Mitsukubi Condor failed in Jump. Does Shueisha have anything between Jump and Saikyou in terms of demographics?
It is meant to be the magazine after Saikyou. I think that Shonen Jump series can be attractive to readers from 12 years until 18~22 years old. Was Mitsukubi Condor too childish to WSJ? I doubt.
 

RafaFedKilla

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It is meant to be the magazine after Saikyou. I think that Shonen Jump series can be attractive to readers from 12 years until 18~22 years old. Was Mitsukubi Condor too childish to WSJ? I doubt.
I think it was. But then again I am a 26 and I Enjoyed it.
 

James Rye

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New series tends to be cancelled if they go bad in the magazine, regardless its sales. There were series that sold 50~60k in their first volume and they were cancelled even so because of bad rankings. You cannot compare Bleach with World Trigger for obvious reasons, one is a worldwide renowned series that in its best ages almost reached 1 million of copies sold per volume, and the other is a fairly new series that sells 150k at best. Not so long ago we discusses here Bleach situation, it will not be cancelled, probably, but there will be a moment where the editors will say to Kubo accelarate the story.

We hope that it go higher in the next chapters. You guys are mistaking what I'm saying, I said "if it continues it may be cancelled", it is true because it doesn't have protections such as Bleach has, it is not a successful series with more than 10 years running. If the editors realize that the anime didn't have the expected reaction and that the rankings are too low, it will be cancelled like any other series in similar situation.
Since you talked about random characters, I shall give my opinion about them. The number of characters itself and the number without background that have in World Trigger is way too big IMO. Putting a dozen of characters aside, we don't know anything about the rest. It's hard to find interesting a fight of a character you don't know anything about,
True, WT only exists for a year and some. Hasn't even been translated into german yet, else I would buy it here...

I am also hoping that the chapters themselves can pull the manga out of the bottom five. If I get the math correctly then those past two weeks had either been about 70/71 or 71/72, in any case 71 was part of it. And as you critized it was about only side-characters so to say, people we know mostly their names, looks and position of. That doesn't mean though that the chapter was bad, the fight was good, the analyzing part to get to the victory was good (and compared to Bleach ch.602...let's not compare those...), the whole bloody murder was good, but it was done by people readers, even if they want to, can't really much care about. It is easier to care about Yuuma, Osamu and Chika or Jin and Miwa as you know where they are coming from, what motivation drives them and what they want to get in the future by their actions. Like Miwa for example, a single chapter of him fighting is already more interesting due his personality than a chapter with a bunch of characters fighting you haven't seen or heard much of (yet) as we know he hates the neighbors with a passion due them kiling his big sister for her trion and that he wants more power to be able to get revenge on them. That and he stays true to his hatred, being distrusting and unpolite to Yuuma, our neighbor MC. He just offers "more" to his fights due him being him and us knowing him thanks to past chapters expalining stuff about him.

But I myself don't see it as a weakness that Ashihara has introduced so many characters. Midorikawa was seen as early as chapter and we didn't thought much of him, neither knowing his name nor position. Later we find out that he is actually a high-ranked A agent who will most likely become a rival to Yuuma in the future Rank wars as well as that he is a "talented puppy excited to show off his skills", overconfident, a bit mean-spirited and a Jin-obsessed fan. And I am sure we get to see the other twos who had greeted Jin back then with a "hello there, Jin-san" and "Ugh, Jin-san" after the invasion arc and find out more about those as well. It's like real life where you cannot get to know everything about a person once you meet them. We have to get there bit by bit. Granted it would have been darn nice to get to see a flashback of Enedra to give him more flesh to his character than a raging rascist powermonkey or to see more of General Manager Shinoda's personality or past life, but then the Invasion arc would have become even longer and it is already very long for such a young manga. I might remember wrong but I'm pretty sure we didn't had such long arcs for One Piece, Naruto and Bleach till they hit 90-100 chapters. They had many smaller arcs than one big one after a short one.

Another problem of Ashihara is his manga's location so to say. In One Piece we also got tons of characters as to many we don't know much but their names, looks and positions, but it doesn't matter as Luffy and co are always traveling so in one travel we can get to learn that Vivi is no bounty hunter but a princess or that even somebody as weird as Franky can become atrusted member of Luffy's crew. In WT for the beginning there won't be much traveling with our MCs for good reasons and the city and HQ itself aren't that big either. In other words Ashiahra is forced to show people who will matter later but he has not yet the time to flesh them much more out than show their faces, position and maybe some stuff like some guy liking to smoke or to act some sort of comedy clown. However he still hold a back a lot, even in this arc for future ones, like Amon's Black trigger power or the Top5 of the B teams who surely will become a problem for Osamu and co when they wanna reach A level.

I find it still a big shame that so many juicy/interesting infos are found out via interviews, like Jun and Konami being cousins or the Chano-kun, the leader of B18 aka a weak B team, actually being a girl which really surprised me. And we found nothing like that out via the manga. Though it is understandable, you can build up the world and characters only so much with 80 chapters, especially when, by now, half of them are action chapters with lots of battle and tactics. I might have to reread, but I am pretty sure that in terms of World building WT has done in 80 chapters more than OP/Naruto and Bleach did in 100 but in terms of fleshing characters out those three have shown "more" in 80 chapters as they focused on a smaller group. Imagine Oda trying to include Robing and Franky into Luffy's crew as early as in 80 chapters together wtih Zoro and Nami and Sanji and what not, THAT development would have ended pretty badly most likely.

Well, anyway chapter 72 or 73 whichever gets ranked next probably won't rank much higher due them again being about side-characters fighting the big bad guys, 72 has the advantage of the murder and 73 of the start of the count-down to the crossraod future, but I can't see those being good enough to get over the "okay, the fights are nice and all but WHO are those people?"-confusion. XD
 

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The ESJ Jump Start series is going to be Hi Fi Cluster.
 

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The ESJ Jump Start series is going to be Hi Fi Cluster.
Nice, it's actually the only series I read out of the 3 new of the batch.
 

Felcis

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The ESJ Jump Start series is going to be Hi Fi Cluster.
Would've preferred "Sporting Salts", but at least it's not "Judos". It's admittedly the most obvious choice.
 
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