Fall NFL Thread

[xi0]

Personally I think the procedure is stupid. Everyone should use the same balls.

But regardless of who used what ball or what the first allegation was, a Colts player pointed it out after an interception. I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Personally I think the procedure is stupid. Everyone should use the same balls.

But regardless of who used what ball or what the first allegation was, a Colts player pointed it out after an interception. I'm not sure what your point is.

The point is that the story was originally spun as that we'd harmed the Colts, when in fact, at most, it made Brady's grip a little better, but seeing that he didn't have a good day, I don't think that it helped at all, if this thing happened.

Anyway, let's not forget how on live tv, when the Patriots played the Packers, the commentators said that they'd spoken to Rodgers and he said that he overinflated the balls past the point that the NFL likes and sees if he can get away with it because he likes extra air. I was watching the game live and thought nothing of it. However, the second that it's the evil Patriots who might (and, mind you, there's no confirmation here) have changed the weight of a football to suit their QB, we're dirty, evil cheaters.

It's also that I'm disappointed that you're buying into this story and not looking at it as the farce that it is. Did you not see that SI reporter come out and try to claim that the Pats cheated in a dozen different ways, including the video screen outside of the stadium? It's all silliness.

Go take a listen to this: http://media.weei.com/a/101075553/michael-rosenberg-of-si-discussed-his-allegations-against-bill-belichick-1-20-15.htm

 

[Jammin]

This whole controversy is so absurd I just have to assume it's a load of crap.

It's also awesome though if only because of all the puns we are going to get to enjoy over the next two weeks. Any controversy that can be described as "a team fiddling with their balls" is great. I feel like everybody wins in that situation.

 

[xi0]

The point is that the story was originally spun as that we'd harmed the Colts, when in fact, at most, it made Brady's grip a little better, but seeing that he didn't have a good day, I don't think that it helped at all, if this thing happened.

Anyway, let's not forget how on live tv, when the Patriots played the Packers, the commentators said that they'd spoken to Rodgers and he said that he overinflated the balls past the point that the NFL likes and sees if he can get away with it because he likes extra air. I was watching the game live and thought nothing of it. However, the second that it's the evil Patriots who might (and, mind you, there's no confirmation here) have changed the weight of a football to suit their QB, we're dirty, evil cheaters.

It's also that I'm disappointed that you're buying into this story and not looking at it as the farce that it is. Did you not see that SI reporter come out and try to claim that the Pats cheated in a dozen different ways, including the video screen outside of the stadium? It's all silliness.

Go take a listen to this: http://media.weei.com/a/101075553/michael-rosenberg-of-si-discussed-his-allegations-against-bill-belichick-1-20-15.htm

Buying into it? I just like to see the Patriots squirm dude.

If you ask a fan of every NFL team which team is most likely to cheat, 31 would say "Patriots". I mean, it is what it is. The media reacted to this because of the past. It's their own damn fault, sorry if I have no sympathy.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Buying into it? I just like to see the Patriots squirm dude.

If you ask a fan of every NFL team which team is most likely to cheat, 31 would say "Patriots". I mean, it is what it is. The media reacted to this because of the past. It's their own damn fault, sorry if I have no sympathy.

No offense here, Gary, but anyone who even pushes the story is belittling themselves.

You do know that videotaping occurs with every team, right, even to this day? The only issue at play was that the Patriots put them in a position that the NFL disagreed with. Don't be every idiot fan who acts like Spygate is the worst thing in the world.

 

[xi0]

No offense here, Gary, but anyone who even pushes the story is belittling themselves.

You do know that videotaping occurs with every team, right, even to this day? The only issue at play was that the Patriots put them in a position that the NFL disagreed with. Don't be every idiot fan who acts like Spygate is the worst thing in the world.

Why would I take offense to that? I'm not pushing the story, I have no platform. It basically comes down to what Jammin mentioned, it's worth it for the memes, if nothing else.

I'm not making an assessment of Spygate. They cheated, got caught, and were penalized. Just because other teams might do it as well doesn't lessen the offense. Cheating and the Patriots keep popping up, and that's their own damn fault. It isn't like the NFL is out to get them, clearly they love Kraft and having the team as a premier franchise.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Why would I take offense to that? I'm not pushing the story, I have no platform. It basically comes down to what Jammin mentioned, it's worth it for the memes, if nothing else.

I'm not making an assessment of Spygate. They cheated, got caught, and were penalized. Just because other teams might do it as well doesn't lessen the offense. Cheating and the Patriots keep popping up, and that's their own damn fault. It isn't like the NFL is out to get them, clearly they love Kraft and having the team as a premier franchise.

It isn't really worth it even still...

No, but in the conversation of the "Patriots are cheaters" or, as Jerome Bettis put it, "known felons," it is relevant. Spygate isn't some big, evil thing.

___________________________________________________________________

That aside, if this new story can be believed, the Patriots may have doctored the balls to deal with the heavy rain. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/report-nfl-found-11-of-12-patriots-footballs-under-inflated/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

It lends credence to the deflating of the balls, although the Patriots clearly didn't get any competitive advantage out of it, but I'd like to see the Colts' balls for comparison.

 

[Jammin]

Bill Belichickis is the best coach in the NFL, and probably the best coach in the Superbowl era but I think one of his characteristics as a coach is a willingness to do absolutely everything he can to win football games (rules be damned)

I think this whole ball tampering thing is probably made up by some Colts player or fan and probably has no substance to it at all. But the reason people aren't quite dismissing it is because we're talking about William Stephen Belichick the Prof. James Moriarty of NFL couches. It really does sound like something he would do.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Well, we only originally heard about it when the Colts player who picked off Brady took the ball over to the sideline and gave it to his equipment manager because "it didn't feel right." He's really not supposed to take the ball away in the first place. Anyway, the first ball, the Colts easily could've doctored themselves. However, if we can believe that the NFL is being honest with us (something that's often been an issue for the years), the Pats really did screw with the footballs.

It's still a non-issue, though, because 45-7.

 

[Jammin]

Well, we only originally heard about it when the Colts player who picked off Brady took the ball over to the sideline and gave it to his equipment manager because "it didn't feel right." He's really not supposed to take the ball away in the first place. Anyway, the first ball, the Colts easily could've doctored themselves. However, if we can believe that the NFL is being honest with us (something that's often been an issue for the years), the Pats really did screw with the footballs.

It's still a non-issue, though, because 45-7.

That I have to disagree on it doesn't matter whether or not they could have won without breaking the rules. If they knowingly broke the rules to gain a competitive advantage a severe penalty needs to be brought down.

I don't think the NFL can, or would, do anything like disqualify the Pats from the Superbowl. Which I do think would be a reasonable punishment if they find conclusive proof that the Pats did this willfully and intentionally, that's what they'd do in college. But the NFL doesn't have the stones to do that. The worst I can imagine the NFL doing is taking some draft picks.

 

[FrostyMouse]

That I have to disagree on it doesn't matter whether or not they could have won without breaking the rules. If they knowingly broke the rules to gain a competitive advantage a severe penalty needs to be brought down.

I don't think the NFL can, or would, do anything like disqualify the Pats from the Superbowl. Which I do think would be a reasonable punishment if they find conclusive proof that the Pats did this willfully and intentionally, that's what they'd do in college. But the NFL doesn't have the stones to do that. The worst I can imagine the NFL doing is taking some draft picks.

There's nothing in place to vacate a win (and who would you let into the SB, if that could happen, the team that get massacred 45-7?). This will cost the Patriots a draft pick or two and some cash, at most, if it does pan out.

Every team breaks rules, though. It's simply that people only complain when the Patriots break rules.

I still want to know why none of the refs could determine the difference in psi. I've handled a lot of different sports balls and you should notice a 2 psi difference, especially if you handle properly inflated balls all the time.

 

[Jammin]

Everybody was doing it, didn't fly as an excuse to my 1st grade teacher for a reason Frosty. The rules are the rules. And Spygate was the Patriots getting caught breaking the rules. They cheated. They got caught. That means they deserve the punishment and hit to the reputation they got as a result. What everybody else was or wasn't doing is meaningless.

If it turns out they were cheating here, and they get caught again. It's the same thing in my eyes.

I don't think the Patriots needed to cheat in order to beat the Colts but if they did then they don't deserve that win. It wouldn't matter if they beat the Colts 200 to 0. In most competitions when you cheat you get an automatic loss in addition to whatever punishments come later; whether you could have won without cheating doesn't matter in the slightest. But that would require proving in less than a week that the Patriots were breaking the rules intentionally and I'd be surprised if the NFL could manage that. Because you can't take away the win without airtight proof.

 

[xi0]

It lends credence to the deflating of the balls, although the Patriots clearly didn't get any competitive advantage out of it, but I'd like to see the Colts' balls for comparison.

Based on what? What's the point of deflating the balls if there's no competitive advantage to it?

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

Well, we only originally heard about it when the Colts player who picked off Brady took the ball over to the sideline and gave it to his equipment manager because "it didn't feel right." He's really not supposed to take the ball away in the first place. Anyway, the first ball, the Colts easily could've doctored themselves. However, if we can believe that the NFL is being honest with us (something that's often been an issue for the years), the Pats really did screw with the footballs.

So now there's a reason to doubt the NFL regarding this? Why exactly? You really think they want this kind of shadow looming over the Super Bowl?

And players take balls all of the time, milestones, etc. Alerting an official to something isn't stealing.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Everybody was doing it, didn't fly as an excuse to my 1st grade teacher for a reason Frosty. The rules are the rules. And Spygate was the Patriots getting caught breaking the rules. They cheated. They got caught. That means they deserve the punishment and hit to the reputation they got as a result. What everybody else was or wasn't doing is meaningless.

If it turns out they were cheating here, and they get caught again. It's the same thing in my eyes.

I don't think the Patriots needed to cheat in order to beat the Colts but if they did then they don't deserve that win. It wouldn't matter if they beat the Colts 200 to 0. In most competitions when you cheat you get an automatic loss in addition to whatever punishments come later; whether you could have won without cheating doesn't matter in the slightest. But that would require proving in less than a week that the Patriots were breaking the rules intentionally and I'd be surprised if the NFL could manage that. Because you can't take away the win without airtight proof.

Would you mind telling me why the NFL doesn't hold onto the balls? If over, or under, inflating balls is a serial issue, then the NFL shouldn't allow opportunities to arise.

It actually does matter. Every team in the league cheats in one way or the other. All of this ends up coming across, and not from you, from the media is that other teams are guiltless and it's only the Patriots who cheat.

Based on what? What's the point of deflating the balls if there's no competitive advantage to it?

Based on the Pats passing game being worse than normal. All of those missed catches by Gronk. There's supposed to be an advantage in gripping it in slippery and wet conditions, but I didn't really see that we were particularly great at holding onto the football or anything.

So now there's a reason to doubt the NFL regarding this? Why exactly? You really think they want this kind of shadow looming over the Super Bowl?

And players take balls all of the time, milestones, etc. Alerting an official to something isn't stealing.

Well, you can listen to Rodgers or Steve Young, who both support QBs tampering with the balls. The NFL doesn't, but they couldn't ignore it once Kravitz started shouting it from every roof, and mountain, top around.

When you have a limited number of balls to play with on offense, it can be an issue.

He didn't actually alert the official. He took it and then gave it to the equipment manager. Apparently, those two could feel that it was off, even though all the refs touching the ball during plays couldn't.

---------- Post added at 01:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 AM ----------

 

[xi0]

Would you mind telling me why the NFL doesn't hold onto the balls? If over, or under, inflating balls is a serial issue, then the NFL shouldn't allow opportunities to arise.

It actually does matter. Every team in the league cheats in one way or the other. All of this ends up coming across, and not from you, from the media is that other teams are guiltless and it's only the Patriots who cheat.

No idea. I already said the procedure is dumb.

Sean Peyton anyone?

Like I said before, if people are more into gamesmanship and catching the Patriot's with their pants down, that's the Patriot's fault. Belichick's reputation exists for a reason. You keep bringing up other teams cheating like it matters. It doesn't.

Based on the Pats passing game being worse than normal. All of those missed catches by Gronk. There's supposed to be an advantage in gripping it in slippery and wet conditions, but I didn't really see that we were particularly great at holding onto the football or anything.

Sigh...the result has nothing to do with the intention. The Patriots wouldn't have done it to hurt their chances. Giving their players LSD before the game because they thought they played better on it would still be against the rules...

 

[Jammin]

Would you mind telling me why the NFL doesn't hold onto the balls? If over, or under, inflating balls is a serial issue, then the NFL shouldn't allow opportunities to arise.

It actually does matter. Every team in the league cheats in one way or the other. All of this ends up coming across, and not from you, from the media is that other teams are guiltless and it's only the Patriots who cheat.

Dude, Tomlin actually stepped out onto the field and tried to trip a guy; in what was most definitely NOT an accident. Believe me I'm aware that all teams try to cheat however they can. And I'd place good odds that the Seahawks are going to go down in history as the PEDhawks one day.

None of that changes that, if Belichick did this, he cheated. Again.

As for why the NFL does things the way they do. Probably because they are cheap, lazy, and stupid. Same reasons they always do things. Is having each team provide their own balls highly questionable? Definitely. Just like having part time referees is a terrible idea. Those very same refs who were supposed to be monitoring to prevent this very thing.

 

[FrostyMouse]

No idea. I already said the procedure is dumb.

Well, of course, which is why I earlier questioned the NFL a bit.

Sean Peyton anyone?

BountyGate wasn't cheating; it was attempting to injure the opposition's players, something which is worse. I did see a poster on the internet say that this deflated balls issue is worse than BountyGate and that Belichick should get two years, as opposed to Payton's one year, but...

Like I said before, if people are more into gamesmanship and catching the Patriot's with their pants down, that's the Patriot's fault. Belichick's reputation exists for a reason. You keep bringing up other teams cheating like it matters. It doesn't.

Maybe it is. Maybe we should start accusing everyone we play against of cheating.

The Spygate started because of Mangini, a former assist who ratted out Belichick. In terms of the Rams' game, if anything did happen there, afaik, the specific camera position wasn't against the rules at the time.

Sigh...the result has nothing to do with the intention. The Patriots wouldn't have done it to hurt their chances. Giving their players LSD before the game because they thought they played better on it would still be against the rules...

That's all well and good (and, admittedly, you're right, but we didn't actually see the Panthers/Vikings fined or suspended or anything for warming the balls during their game, so this does seem to be one of those, it's the Patriots, so we'll pursue type things), but let's take a look at that tweet I posted. In the half that was supposedly played with deflated balls, the Patriots only led 17-7. In the half where there were no deflated balls, the Patriots outscored the Colts 28-0.

I get the feeling that the NFL would never have pushed this story, or would've just mentioned it in some small brief and given the Patriots a fine if not for Kravitz pushing it left and right.

Until this whole deflated ball thing came up, I'd never even heard of the heating the ball thing in the Panthers/Vikings game.

---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 AM ----------

Dude, Tomlin actually stepped out onto the field and tried to trip a guy; in what was most definitely NOT an accident. Believe me I'm aware that all teams try to cheat however they can. And I'd place good odds that the Seahawks are going to go down in history as the PEDhawks one day.

None of that changes that, if Belichick did this, he cheated. Again.

As for why the NFL does things the way they do. Probably because they are cheap, lazy, and stupid. Same reasons they always do things. Is having each team provide their own balls highly questionable? Definitely. Just like having part time referees is a terrible idea. Those very same refs who were supposed to be monitoring to prevent this very thing.

What did you edit?

Didn't Tomlin getting in the way stop a return TD or something?

Well, if the Seahawks only win the one SB, probably not. If they win this year, everyone connected to PEDs will crawl out of the woodwork, however.

Oh, I didn't say that, if true, this doesn't say Belichick cheated, because it clearly does. It's simply that the Pats tend to get the short end of the stick on some of these things.

Given that it was the last play of the game and they fired the replacement refs over it, why couldn't they just overturn the simultaneous catch call? It's similar to how Armando Galarraga lost his perfect game, but for a mere like three more pitches, they couldn't go back and just award him the correct call.

 

[Jammin]

What did you edit?

Didn't Tomlin getting in the way stop a return TD or something?

Well, if the Seahawks only win the one SB, probably not. If they win this year, everyone connected to PEDs will crawl out of the woodwork, however.

Oh, I didn't say that, if true, this doesn't say Belichick cheated, because it clearly does. It's simply that the Pats tend to get the short end of the stick on some of these things.

Given that it was the last play of the game and they fired the replacement refs over it, why couldn't they just overturn the simultaneous catch call? It's similar to how Armando Galarraga lost his perfect game, but for a mere like three more pitches, they couldn't go back and just award him the correct call.

I rephrased. Swapped out "my coach" for "Tomlin" and fixed some grammar.

I think your right about the Pats getting more suspicion than most but that's because of they have a history under Belichick of doing this kind of thing. That warrants suspicion. That's just the price of getting caught with Spygate. And it's never really going to go away.

 

[xi0]

BountyGate wasn't cheating; it was attempting to injure the opposition's players, something which is worse. I did see a poster on the internet say that this deflated balls issue is worse than BountyGate and that Belichick should get two years, as opposed to Payton's one year, but...

I know what BountyGate was for. But is going above and beyond to remove a player from the game any different than cheating? What's the real difference between deliberately hitting someone with intent to injure for profit, and jumping them in the parking lot before the game? They came down hard on Payton because it involved player health, and that issue exploded within the last 5 years or so. Plus there was the issue of players being paid under the table.

I don't really know how the NFL will react to this. But consider that Belichick now has a track record of cheating, and on top of that consider the type of year the NFL has had. Incredibly bad PR all around. I don't think it bodes well for the Patriots franchise if they punish you guys over this.

The Spygate started because of Mangini, a former assist who ratted out Belichick. In terms of the Rams' game, if anything did happen there, afaik, the specific camera position wasn't against the rules at the time.

He didn't rat out Belichick for anything in the past. He reported it to the NFL because of Belichick's audaciousness to do it blatantly and in the Meadowlands on top of it. I seriously doubt he had an axe to grind with Belichick personally, unless I'm unaware of something. All of the perceived bad blood between the two occurred after this whole thing happened.

That's all well and good (and, admittedly, you're right, but we didn't actually see the Panthers/Vikings fined or suspended or anything for warming the balls during their game, so this does seem to be one of those, it's the Patriots, so we'll pursue type things), but let's take a look at that tweet I posted. In the half that was supposedly played with deflated balls, the Patriots only led 17-7. In the half where there were no deflated balls, the Patriots outscored the Colts 28-0.

Why do you keep bringing results up? It seems like you're still missing the point...

So if the Patriots had somehow managed to steal the Colt's playbook in the week leading up to the game and still lost, they shouldn't be punished?

 

[FrostyMouse]

I know what BountyGate was for. But is going above and beyond to remove a player from the game any different than cheating? What's the real difference between deliberately hitting someone with intent to injure for profit, and jumping them in the parking lot before the game? They came down hard on Payton because it involved player health, and that issue exploded within the last 5 years or so. Plus there was the issue of players being paid under the table.

I don't put it in the same category as cheating, that's just me. It's bringing the game into ill repute and attempting to cause gross bodily harm.

I don't really know how the NFL will react to this. But consider that Belichick now has a track record of cheating, and on top of that consider the type of year the NFL has had. Incredibly bad PR all around. I don't think it bodes well for the Patriots franchise if they punish you guys over this.

If it's proven, we'll lose a draft pick and get a fine, at most. The thing is that when the Packers and Panthers/Vikings do it, there's no issue, which is something I don't like.

He didn't rat out Belichick for anything in the past. He reported it to the NFL because of Belichick's audaciousness to do it blatantly and in the Meadowlands on top of it. I seriously doubt he had an axe to grind with Belichick personally, unless I'm unaware of something. All of the perceived bad blood between the two occurred after this whole thing happened.

There were reports that they parted on less than amicable terms and that Mangini tried to poach some of Belichick's staff before Mangini spilled the beans on it.

Why do you keep bringing results up? It seems like you're still missing the point...

So if the Patriots had somehow managed to steal the Colt's playbook in the week leading up to the game and still lost, they shouldn't be punished?

Here's the real point. The balls were replaced at halftime. With the "deflated" balls, it was 17-7. After halftime, it was 28-0. So, any competitive advantage that we could've gotten certainly wasn't reflected in our play or on the scoreboard. The fact that we were that superior anyway means that if this was a systematic infraction of the rules, it was a completely wasted effort (I don't condone or support this deflating of the balls, but it didn't affect anything).

Stealing a playbook is, generally, worse than this. I'm not being a homer here. I see something like this as extremely minor (we also know that other teams have screwed with balls this season and gotten zero punishment). The only thing I really have a problem with in the NFL is overly hard hits, or hits that appear to have the intent to injure (thus, I had a big problem with BountyGate).