Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2015] - Discussion and TOC Talk

Status
Not open for further replies.

piau9000

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 23, 2015
Messages
242
Reaction score
80
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
Is Naruto Gaiden ranked?
Normaly no.
People remove it from the "pure rankings" because it is a short "special" series that is meant to end in a few weeks.

The pure rank would go something like this:



VOLUME 30

1. Assassination Classroom
2. Food Wars
3. Black Clover
4. Haikyuu!!
5. My Hero Academia
6. Hinomaru Zumou
7. Nisekoi
8. Toriko
9. Gintama
10. PSI Kusuo Saiki
11. World Trigger
12. Bleach
13. Kochikame
14. Ultra Battle Satellite
 

DoctorApollo

Artist
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
437
Reaction score
276
Gender
Male
Country
Israel
Attempts to go all "pure rank" and overly analyze the individual placement of each series is ridiculous. The ToC is chosen by the editorial staff based on the rankings, but they can do whatever they want. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if BC is actually ranking mediocrely but they're putting it at the front to help the perception that it's a successful series and encourage people to read it. This is just an example I chose because its sales aren't proportional to its ToC placement.

The ToC is just what the editors think the readers want to see, no reason to see it as an exact ranking. All we should be seeing it as "a series in the back a lot is doing poorly, and a series in the front a lot is doing well." Going all "pure ranking" is giving the ToC more credit than it deserves.
 

piau9000

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 23, 2015
Messages
242
Reaction score
80
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
Attempts to go all "pure rank" and overly analyze the individual placement of each series is ridiculous. The ToC is chosen by the editorial staff based on the rankings, but they can do whatever they want. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if BC is actually ranking mediocrely but they're putting it at the front to help the perception that it's a successful series and encourage people to read it. This is just an example I chose because its sales aren't proportional to its ToC placement.

The ToC is just what the editors think the readers want to see, no reason to see it as an exact ranking. All we should be seeing it as "a series in the back a lot is doing poorly, and a series in the front a lot is doing well." Going all "pure ranking" is giving the ToC more credit than it deserves.
"Pure rank" means, remove colour pages, oneshots, specials and series newer than 8 weeks. It's a shueisha rule, not mine.

Color pages = Put in the beggining, middle and end of the magazine. They should not be ranked as they are in a fixed position in the magazine.

Oneshots = Should not be ranked as it don't have public feedback.

Specials = Are very short so it makes no sense to rank it since it don't need a good rank to survive.

Newer than 8 weeks = Public feedback is aways 8 week late.



And by your rule, One Piece is the biggest failure, as it is just "fake" ranks and the editors are lying to everyone... :teehee
You are the one overanalyzing it...

PS: Black Clover had problems with stock, but you will not believe it so, whatever...
 

Estranho

Registered User
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
282
Reaction score
74
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
This was discussed a lot in this thread along the years. It's interesting how people still treat this ranking thing like a religion. The 8-week-rule is basically a dogma, you can't say anything about it because, well, it's been here for so long, it can't be wrong, right?
And the funny part about it is that the only reliable source we have, even if it may be tendentious, is Bakuman and people choose to dismiss its informations in favor of "tradition" and the rule they "know" for so long. Just like a religion.
It's a lost cause, DoctorApollo, unfortunately.

[ALT+TAB]
So, next week we will have color pages for all the "sports" manga in the magazine. Maybe it's an event?
 

DoctorApollo

Artist
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
437
Reaction score
276
Gender
Male
Country
Israel
Goku, don't twist my words just so that you can make funny emoticons laughing at an argument that didnt exist.

I'm saying the editors can do whatever they want, and they can have any reason for putting any series anywhere. It is usually correlated with ranking, but not necessarily.

My criticism was of the fact that you take the /exact/ ranking so seriously you try to purify it, when in reality the exact ranking is entirely irrelevant, because the ToC is nothing but a rough guide of how the editors view the series.

I didn't deny BC's problems with stock, but itd be quite a stretch to say the sales match the rankings regardless.

All I'm saying is there could be any number of reasons for the Toc to place series where they are, putting exact numbers on it is futile.
 

Xzone

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
888
Reaction score
698
Gender
Male
Country
Isle of Man
"Pure rank" means, remove colour pages, oneshots, specials and series newer than 8 weeks. It's a shueisha rule, not mine.
Yes, Pure rank mean, the series who don't rank , but for jump means nothing, it didn't axed a series for bad rank it use the bad rank and sales to see what the problem of the series, see World trigger, Jin apeared produce the boom, so the editor talk to the author to tell the problem of the first chapter.

Color pages = Put in the beggining, middle and end of the magazine. They should not be ranked as they are in a fixed position in the magazine.
Not only the color pages have fixed position, Bleach position has fixed for the number of page, kochikame position because it the dinosaur of the magazine, etc...

Oneshots = Should not be ranked as it don't have public feedback.
Because it only a one shot (one chapter) it not appeared in the next 7 or 8 chapter.

Specials = Are very short so it makes no sense to rank it since it don't need a good rank to survive.
Same to the one shot, also we don't have very special, the naruto gaiden it's asume to be 10 chapter because kishimoto said his next work would be in summer.

And by your rule, One Piece is the biggest failure, as it is just "fake" ranks and the editors are lying to everyone... :teehee
You are the one overanalyzing it...
Because is it his best seller and allways have in the top 3, if it has very series with that sales fanbase, it wouldn't have in the top 3 allway, also the +5vol rank doesn't meant after Vol 5 because the important is the sales and the potential of grow(Nisekoi, AC have the potential and Double art and Neuro not).

PS: Black Clover had problems with stock, but you will not believe it so, whatever...
I also don't believe with the Zumou hit(After Vol 5 it would probably axed if it doesn't have an anime), and WT hit (The anime bost have me a little of hope), and the dance probably hit, I think Jump it using a Toriko tactic but toriko have a hype with the author and has a long time project and OneShot.
 

piau9000

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 23, 2015
Messages
242
Reaction score
80
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
Goku, don't twist my words just so that you can make funny emoticons laughing at an argument that didnt exist.

I'm saying the editors can do whatever they want, and they can have any reason for putting any series anywhere. It is usually correlated with ranking, but not necessarily.

My criticism was of the fact that you take the /exact/ ranking so seriously you try to purify it, when in reality the exact ranking is entirely irrelevant, because the ToC is nothing but a rough guide of how the editors view the series.

I didn't deny BC's problems with stock, but itd be quite a stretch to say the sales match the rankings regardless.

All I'm saying is there could be any number of reasons for the Toc to place series where they are, putting exact numbers on it is futile.
Look at the name of the topic.
This topic is about the TOC.
That's what everyone is doing in this topic since the beggining.
But since Black Clover began to rank, people began to dismiss the rankings as if they don't matter anymore.

And I'm not "purifying" it. I'm just using the rules above to get the "real rank", whatever this means.
The above rules does make sense.
What we know is that Jump use public votes to rank the series. Then they put it in the magazine in the same order as the rank.
I'm not the one saying it. Everyone is.

Fuck, I'm not even the first one to do this "cleaned rank". But when I did it, it became a "problem".

And I do believe that the stock problems are the culprit for the bad sales (even though 38k should not be considered bad).
Otherwise I would have to believe that they are trying to artificialy push the success of something that is fated to fail.
This is NOT how Shueisha works as they could have done it before in more well established series before deciding to cancel it (beelzebub, hitman, etc...).
 

Estranho

Registered User
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
282
Reaction score
74
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
What we know is that Jump use public votes to rank the series. Then they put it in the magazine in the same order as the rank.
I'm not the one saying it. Everyone is.
IMO, the correct way to say this would be "they PROBABLY put it in the magazine in APPROXIMATELY the same order".
And I think that's problem DoctorApollo is seeing, this certainty, am I right?
 

piau9000

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 23, 2015
Messages
242
Reaction score
80
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
IMO, the correct way to say this would be "they PROBABLY put it in the magazine in APPROXIMATELY the same order".
And I think that's problem DoctorApollo is seeing, this certainty, am I right?
Then there's nothing to talk about it since it's all speculation.
Also there's some source that says that this IS how they do it. It may not be the best source but there's not other source to prove the opposite. It's all speculation.
 

Nayrael

Registered User
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
305
Reaction score
159
Age
36
Gender
Male
Country
Croatia
Maybe moderators should start kicking out any posts that do not concern rankings because too many of you people are forgetting one of two main points of this thread.

For most, the main purpose of this tread is to see how well the Manga are doing in WSJ. Since Color Pages, short stories, etc. have their own slots, their placement in ToC is completely useless for the purpose of this tread, thus why sometimes "Pure Ranks", aka ToC where all definitely unranked series removed, are posted from time to time.

With that all said, stop trying to act smart by saying "Meh, it is Editors who decide this!". Everyone and their grandma know this, but it is a fact proven over and over again that ToC CAN be used as an efficient way to predict the near future for a given series. That is, the ToC give us a look in what series the Editors would prefe to keep in the magazine and which they are more likely to axe.
 

Stark700

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
814
Gender
Hidden
Country
Winterfell
With that all said, stop trying to act smart by saying "Meh, it is Editors who decide this!". Everyone and their grandma know this, but it is a fact proven over and over again that ToC CAN be used as an efficient way to predict the near future for a given series. That is, the ToC give us a look in what series the Editors would prefe to keep in the magazine and which they are more likely to axe.
Time and time again, people are treating it as a perfect science, then backtrack on it. Pretending like they know it's not.

Based on your reply, it looks like you didn't read DoctorApollo's post. He didn't even say anything contrary to that, lol. It's like, because he didn't mention what you're talking about, you assume that what he thinks about that has to be wrong.
 

Mammo

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
4,755
Reaction score
8,897
Gender
Male
Country
Holy Britannian Empire
So the cp is just to promote the volume? wsj better not cancel this a week later after the cp

& Kyosuke better get a suit like the rest of shikigami association agents, he looks like a brat hanging out with adults
 

Mammo

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
4,755
Reaction score
8,897
Gender
Male
Country
Holy Britannian Empire
now that's what i am talking about *insert gif of Franky say suuuuper here*
 

Shinuki no Reborn

Mangahelper
伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member
Mangahelper
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
15,492
Reaction score
39,523
Age
34
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
Maybe moderators should start kicking out any posts that do not concern rankings because too many of you people are forgetting one of two main points of this thread.

For most, the main purpose of this tread is to see how well the Manga are doing in WSJ. Since Color Pages, short stories, etc. have their own slots, their placement in ToC is completely useless for the purpose of this tread, thus why sometimes "Pure Ranks", aka ToC where all definitely unranked series removed, are posted from time to time.

With that all said, stop trying to act smart by saying "Meh, it is Editors who decide this!". Everyone and their grandma know this, but it is a fact proven over and over again that ToC CAN be used as an efficient way to predict the near future for a given series. That is, the ToC give us a look in what series the Editors would prefe to keep in the magazine and which they are more likely to axe.
Seriously, totally agree, just bored me to death when people start another completely useless discussion about "rankings" here, after all these years, people still discussing about "rules", people are here and in the others forums to discuss about the rankings, positions, rise and fall, the "rules" are here since forever and nothing appeared to prove that is not truth or totally truth, no one here can't actually prove that the toc work or not in this way, but the fact is, these "rules" are the best way to follow the toc, always, proven thousand and thousand times.

Is just boring as hell when some people try to be the smart one acting like "hurr durr no one knows how actually work, so is all just assumption, we shouldn't talk about rankings or pure rankings because are all chosen by the editors hurr durr"

Give me a break, and let people enjoy the rankings and have fun in the best way, because no one here actually knows how the toc totally works, only Shonen Jump can explain, and while this not happen, the best way is follow the "rules" instead of creating useless discussions where no one actually knows the truth.
 

RafaFedKilla

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
1,727
Reaction score
464
Gender
Male
Country
United States
Gonna miss Kagamigami in a month or so....
 

piau9000

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 23, 2015
Messages
242
Reaction score
80
Age
37
Gender
Male
Country
Brazil
Average ranking of 2015 - VOL 30:


"+" means that the series ended or moved to another magazine.


One Piece - 1.73
Assassination Classroom - 1.94
My Hero Academia - 2.4
Haikyuu - 3.52
Food Wars - 3.85
Black Clover - 3.87
Hinomaru Zumou - 5.96
Toriko - 6.08
Gintama - 6.73
PSI Kusou Saiki - 7.24
Kagamigami - 7.9
Nisekoi - 8.33
World Trigger - 8.44
Bleach - 10.76
Kochikame - 10.96
+Gakkyuu Houtei - 11.15
Ultra Battle Satellite - 11.66
+Judos - 12
+Takujou no Ageha - 12.33
+Hi-Fi Cluster - 12.71
+Cyborg Roggy - 13.5
+E-Robot - 13.5
+Sporting Salt - 13.5
 
Last edited:

Mammo

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
4,755
Reaction score
8,897
Gender
Male
Country
Holy Britannian Empire
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top