Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Mangang]

What the hell am I reading? When did Uchiha's revolt become a war against Senju only? YO really have a nice story. Good job bruh

If you are done then come out of your fantasy and lets talk about the real manga stuff as if it were going to happen when its you

Uchiha's problem this time was not about Senju or Uzumaki(they were at the verge of extinction anyway), its about the village leaders doing the discrimination against them(I don't see any senju being the village leader at the time). So stop making it Senju vs Uchiha fight.

And your point of possibility of igniting war, that is the possibility in every civil war happened. IN every revolution war many people lost there lifes, like French revolution where hundreds of people scarifice their life in their fight against noble class or American civil war to liberate Blacks. Do you blame those revolutionary for their actions?

I will tell you again, wrong is not with the one that is revolting against the discrimination but with the one that is doing the discrimination. If leaders really wanted to stop the war then they should have talk openly with them and first step should be accepting their mistakes and amending them which none of the leaders suggest coz they stubbornly think that they can clean off Uchiha if time comes to(Danzo) and their unbelivable respect of Second. None of them saw any flaw in Second's policy and that is the most laughable thing.

And nowhere it was said that Uchiha was just trying to butcher everyone. Can you provide any scan where it was mentio that they were fighting against Senju or were planning to butchered those clans as you suggest?

About you Itachi and Shisui argument you are 100% wrong.
1. They never talk to Uchiha clan even when clan meeting was held. We have seen in animie that Itachi just sit in the meeting and nodding his head only. And Shisui sit only silently at the corner.
2. Itachi never had a chance to use that super powerful genjutsu, coz a) Danzo still one eye from Shisui before he could use it b) As Itachi said it requires a decade to reactivate it. And that is why he didn't use that to Sasuke.

And you admitted that Third was indeed unqualified leader so no point in prolonging this disscussion.

 

[Machi-tan]

Again you're unnecessarily abrasive. Hiding the fact that you're wrong behind verbal dodginess and subtle insults doesn't make your case any stronger.

They wanted to pull of a coup. You know what that is right? They wanted to overthrow the ruling class and officials. Guess what clan was the ruling clan? Guess what clan the Uchiha blamed for their situation? Guess what clan set up the social structure to allow the Uchiha to be treated like dirt? Obviously they would go after the Senju when they revolted. At the very least, the Senju would be front and center in the fight claiming that everything they thought about the Uchiha being violent and untrustworthy was true.

Senju vs Uchiha would happen no matter what... Again, you miss the fact that the Manga is set up to make sure we know that no matter what... the Senju and Uchiha would battle each other. (At least before Naruto and Sasuke settled the grudge).


What the heck did i just read? Yes, the Senju treated the Uchiha like second class citizens. But before Danzo forced them into a single spot of the map, they never really got anything that bad besides the aggression of the Senju ideals. Again, not saying that they as people didn't deserve respect. But to see the fact that you think it's okay to murder millions because you weren't liked?

The other wars you mentioned don't even apply... Slavery? Hostile occupation? Forced labor and being sold like animals? Almost all serious revolutions had those things in common. The most any Uchiha had to deal with in the Leaf before Danzo was glares from the Senju when they walked down the street. During the Third's time period he spoke out against discrimination against them so they actually got to move around more in the government like when he gave Itachi AnBu to try and show the Uchiha that he trusts them. Not a single Uchiha was enslaved... they all could leave any time they pleased (infact many of the Senju would've encouraged it) and they never were violently acted on until Itachi... they just got hateful stares and lived near the police station.. But that gratifies them trading millions of lives in because people didn't like them? Okay.

And you know that an Coup de tat always ends with the execution of the old leading class right? You think the other clans will let their elders they respect and Senju who had major political roles die without a fight? It'd end badly.

Secondly.

It's laughable, how right you 'think' you are.

1.) The Uchiha knew all along Itachi didn't agree with them. They sent Shisui to watch him and perhaps 'deal' with him if he was going to be an issue. but Shisui decided that Itachi was in the right and he didn't agree with the clan either.

2.) Secondly... He never activated the Genjutsu. It never needed to recharge... because he never used it. It was available to be used, but Itachi implanted it in a crow and saved it for Sasuke.

Again Itachi and Shisui both wanted what was best for their clan + the leaf. And they couldn't think of a way out of it besides leaning on Danzo and subsequently murdering the whole clan.

You continue to Call the third the 'incompetent' leader here. But again:

1.) He reached out and was shot down dozens of time. So he did try. (Their fault, not his)
2.) He gave Itachi ANBU status as a show of good will, but they took it to a negative level and made Itachi a spy against him (even thought it backfired)(Again, Uchiha being stubborn and Their fault)
3.) They Sent Shisui to handle Itachi... Shisui ends up deciding that Itachi and Danzo are right and spies against the Uchiha also. (Uchiha still trying to play the system and being set up even more...)
4.) 3/4 of the Leaf's council believe the Uchiha are unsavable, and itachi verbally telling the 3rd Hokage he thought Danzo's plan was for the best.

You are so bent on proving you are right and not reading a word that is typed that you miss everything. Itachi loved his people... do you honestly think if he could've avoided that situation in ANY way, he'd pick Danzo's side? Even when his best friend was mutilated by Danzo and he killed himself... Itachi still didn't let his feelings for revenge change his mind, and thought killing off his own clan was the best idea.

Actually.. Lets drop politics for a second. Itachi himself, a proud Uchiha saw the way they were acting and decided they couldn't be left alive or they would ruin the world. He took the initative on the attack. He went to Danzo and helped Danzo think of the 'solution' with the help of Tobi. He basically is responsible for more than half of this getting set up. You saw how pained he was. Do you think he'd do it if he didn't have to? Of course not. If that doesn't say something about how Screwed up the Uchiha's revenge drive was, then i don't know what to tell you.

 

[Mangang]

I tink this disscussion will never end, every single time you are bringing stuffs that either it was never intended in the manga or its my shitty memory. So lets do the conventional way, I will quote the part that I don't agree, you will provide me proof and you quote the part you don't agree and I will provide the proof. I think this way our disscussion will have a conclusion.

Reminder: Our disscussion is about whether Hiruzen was a competent leader?
My answer is no.
And yours is yes.

So lets start.

They wanted to pull of a coup. You know what that is right? They wanted to overthrow the ruling class and officials. Guess what clan was the ruling clan? Guess what clan the Uchiha blamed for their situation? Guess what clan set up the social structure to allow the Uchiha to be treated like dirt? Obviously they would go after the Senju when they revolted.

So tell me when Konoha become a village dominated by a single clan but not a democratic system. As far as I know, Hokage is not a sit reserve to any clan. Out of 7 Hokages, 3 were Senju while Tsunade was made only coz Jiraiya didn't wanted to be Hokage.
Senju and Uchiha were known as founding clan but none of them kept the gov under their control. During Thirds reign, I don't see any senju in the higher ups. MInd reminding one?

Senju vs Uchiha would happen no matter what... Again, you miss the fact that the Manga is set up to make sure we know that no matter what... the Senju and Uchiha would battle each other. (At least before Naruto and Sasuke settled the grudge).

Nope. manga was set to happen Asura vs Indra not Senju vs Uchiha. After Madara's incident, senju become an insignificant clan which didn't even get mentioned in the manga. No notable jounin or ninja so far.
And Uchiha's coup was against the village higher ups, not against Senju. If you insist then provide me the scan.

What the heck did i just read? Yes, the Senju treated the Uchiha like second class citizens. But before Danzo forced them into a single spot of the map, they never really got anything that bad besides the aggression of the Senju ideals. Again, not saying that they as people didn't deserve respect. But to see the fact that you think it's okay to murder millions because you weren't liked?

It wasn't senju but the higher ups that was treating them like second class citizen. As far as I remember everyone respect them as the strongest clan, everyone hope the best from them until Kyuubi's atack. So if you gonna insist on senju the show me the scan coz I don't remember any senju treating an Uchiha like second class except for maybe Tobirama(but he is the special case)

The other wars you mentioned don't even apply... Slavery? Hostile occupation? Forced labor and being sold like animals? Almost all serious revolutions had those things in common. The most any Uchiha had to deal with in the Leaf before Danzo was glares from the Senju when they walked down the street. During the Third's time period he spoke out against discrimination against them so they actually got to move around more in the government like when he gave Itachi AnBu to try and show the Uchiha that he trusts them. Not a single Uchiha was enslaved... they all could leave any time they pleased (infact many of the Senju would've encouraged it) and they never were violently acted on until Itachi... they just got hateful stares and lived near the police station.. But that gratifies them trading millions of lives in because people didn't like them? Okay.

First French revolution don't include any slavery or solding human but because of nobles discriminating middle class people and peasants which was quite similar to Uchiha's situation. Do you remember RIGHT TO LIBERTY?

Second American revoluion against British rule was due to British treating American as second class citizen.
Every revolution happen due to many reasons, and the most common was discrimination, and it can happen in many form, like racism, sexism or slavery. none of them cannot be justify by any reason. If you are doing discrimination then you are inviting a revolution. You cannot suppress a human race forever.

And Itachi wasn't handed anbu, but its was Uchiha's decision to send an uchiha in the foundation as spy. DOn't twist it.

And you know that an Coup de tat always ends with the execution of the old leading class right? You think the other clans will let their elders they respect and Senju who had major political roles die without a fight? It'd end badly.

One again Senju no longer had much political roles. And tell me what Coup de tat didn't execute old leaders. I have heard of none?
So its obvious they are going to excecute villages higher up provided they succeded.
Village leaders did the same to uchiha didn't they?

And one thing, I think you are under impression that I support the coup, but I am not by any means. All I think was village get what they saw. Uchiha's attempt to coup was the result of Second's and Third's policy(Hiruzen allowing Danzo to run Havoc). Not the Uchiha's fault. It was somthing that could have been avoided provided Third use his brain more and was more earnest in solving the problem.

1.) The Uchiha knew all along Itachi didn't agree with them. They sent Shisui to watch him and perhaps 'deal' with him if he was going to be an issue. but Shisui decided that Itachi was in the right and he didn't agree with the clan either.

No uchiha only suspected.

2.) Secondly... He never activated the Genjutsu. It never needed to recharge... because he never used it. It was available to be used, but Itachi implanted it in a crow and saved it for Sasuke.

Whether he activated or not, Itachi said he cannot use the genjutsu until that time when he used against himself to break free from Kabuto's control. So manga has given its answer, are you going to say Itachi was lieing there?

1.) He reached out and was shot down dozens of time. So he did try. (Their fault, not his)

When? Mind giving any proof.

2.) He gave Itachi ANBU status as a show of good will, but they took it to a negative level and made Itachi a spy against him (even thought it backfired)(Again, Uchiha being stubborn and Their fault)

He didn't give Itachi Anbu status to show anything, but it was Uchiha's decision to send Itachi as spy. If you don't know Shisui was already in the anbu so allowing Itachi in anbu won't change anything.

3.) They Sent Shisui to handle Itachi... Shisui ends up deciding that Itachi and Danzo are right and spies against the Uchiha also. (Uchiha still trying to play the system and being set up even more...)

Shisui was already in Anbu before Itachi join it. get for facts correct.

4.) 3/4 of the Leaf's council believe the Uchiha are unsavable, and itachi verbally telling the 3rd Hokage he thought Danzo's plan was for the best.

Yes council consist of two old guys and Danzo. Which Tsunade show the middle finger to their advise.


Itachi love his clans and his action was the only way to avoid more bloodshed and I didn't deny it, but you are failing to comprehend that my argument is about that situation/circumstances could have been avoided provided Hiruzen was a better capable leader.

 

[nichendrix]

@Itamachi and @Mangang

Can't you just agree to disagree because this discussion is around one month long if not longer and you're just repeating yourselves, it wastes your time, and our time when we look for posts not related to this discussion.

 

[Machi-tan]

My apologies. Consider it wrapped up. I had no idea how long its been since it started, i just answer right before bed so i never gave it any after thought. Sorry to all whose time it wasted.

 

[ninjabot]

My apologies. Consider it wrapped up. I had no idea how long its been since it started, i just answer right before bed so i never gave it any after thought. Sorry to all whose time it wasted.

^That's not how discussion threads work.

You don't post with consideration to other people's feelings unless you're saying something controversial/outside of the actual argument (insults, attacks on their person outside of the thread topic). If they don't wanna read what you have to say, they don't have to read them.

Not to mention this is the hangout thread where you don't even have to remain on topic anyway. Seriously, don't pay attention to someone (other than a mod, and even then use your own judgment as to whether or not to drop it, because they don't decide what values you place on your own opinions, they can only punish you for having them) in deciding whether you wanna continue the debate.

TL;DR: Say what you wanna say if you're not (intentionally) hurting anyone while doing it, or going off-topic. And even then, if it's your honest opinion, say it anyway. Just be prepared for the consequences.

 

[Exodi]

^That's not how discussion threads work.

You don't post with consideration to other people's feelings unless you're saying something controversial/outside of the actual argument (insults, attacks on their person outside of the thread topic). If they don't wanna read what you have to say, they don't have to read them.

Not to mention this is the hangout thread where you don't even have to remain on topic anyway. Seriously, don't pay attention to someone (other than a mod, and even then use your own judgment as to whether or not to drop it, because they don't decide what values you place on your own opinions, they can only punish you for having them) in deciding whether you wanna continue the debate.

TL;DR: Say what you wanna say if you're not (intentionally) hurting anyone while doing it, or going off-topic. And even then, if it's your honest opinion, say it anyway. Just be prepared for the consequences.

And, let's be honest, it's not like the Naruto threads are bursting with discussion now. Since the manga ended things are pretty.....dead. Not like Madara dead but like....Shikaku and Inoichi dead.


I was enjoying the drama, lol.

 

[nichendrix]

My apologies. Consider it wrapped up. I had no idea how long its been since it started, i just answer right before bed so i never gave it any after thought. Sorry to all whose time it wasted.

I don't think there is an inheren't problem in discussing these things, but really it is about a month that you and @Mangang are discussing the same issue, with the same arguments that already spammed 3 or 4 different threads before coming here. I won't deny that sometimes I read your comments because they are usually so well logically constructed for someone so young that it is pleasing to see, but it's been quite a time that the arguments are the same day in and day out, and in the end it is just a matter of opinion, @Mangang would not change his opinions, no matter what you talk, it is in his nature. So there's really a point in trying to convince him?

Don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to censor you both or dictate what you have to say, just calling you both to reflect about what you're doing, but in the end, if you two think it is worth it, I would not complain anymore.

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

^That's not how discussion threads work.

You don't post with consideration to other people's feelings unless you're saying something controversial/outside of the actual argument (insults, attacks on their person outside of the thread topic). If they don't wanna read what you have to say, they don't have to read them.

Not to mention this is the hangout thread where you don't even have to remain on topic anyway. Seriously, don't pay attention to someone (other than a mod, and even then use your own judgment as to whether or not to drop it, because they don't decide what values you place on your own opinions, they can only punish you for having them) in deciding whether you wanna continue the debate.

TL;DR: Say what you wanna say if you're not (intentionally) hurting anyone while doing it, or going off-topic. And even then, if it's your honest opinion, say it anyway. Just be prepared for the consequences.

I tend to agree with you, but like I've said, this topic was moved to here for the 3rd or 4th time already, this time I asked @impossibility to move it here because it was becoming a pain to fing @Kid Chameleone's posts with the new chapters of his translation of the novel.

It always started in other threads. The Boruto the movie thread became basically a Uchiha Massacre Thread, The Boruto the Novel Thread the same thing, some other threads related to the movie always goes ashtray because @Mangang start to go off-topic with this discussion about how he thinks the world is bad because Uchiha's are wronged. @Itamachi is a very clever guy, but is always baited into this discussion, and I have to admit that others people like me, @Shaakaaria, among others get into it too, but at some point we realize that the thing is just the endless repetition of the same arguments and step out.

It is not that I'm saying hey you don't have the right to discuss this, it is more like me asking if there's no other argument than the ones presented over and over and over again on this subject, let's just agree that no one will agree with anyone and move on, even if to other kinds of arguments around the ones being made. RIght now you can't even argue about the value of the opinions being presented because they were repeated so many times that we know them by heart.

But as you say, they could discuss it endlessly and still be inside the rules, at least here at the hang out thread, but is anyone still really reading all these posts other than them both? TO me it became a arms wresting contest between them to see who will win the fight.

In the end, don't take me wrong or thing I'm somehow pissed by my lack of emotes and things like that, nor that I want to dictate what they can or cannot talk about, I really just ask for a reflection about if it is still worth repeating the same arguments over and over again, and if they think they do, who am I to say they are wrong?

 

[M3J]

My apologies. Consider it wrapped up. I had no idea how long its been since it started, i just answer right before bed so i never gave it any after thought. Sorry to all whose time it wasted.

They're not mods, it's up to you to decide whether you want to listen to them or not. This month-long debate is nothing compared to the stupid NaruSaku/NaruHina and/or Naruto vs. Sasuke debates that have raged on for months, if not years, with repeated arguments. This place is lacking in activity anyway, and we do have a search function for threads, sections, and the entire forum.

 

[Machi-tan]

Well since all in all everyone agrees that this issue isn't a bother i'll reply. If a different topic starts in the hangouts then have at it, i honestly only answer this thread when i'm headed to bed anyway. Maybe this new format will help it wind down, but honestly its entertaining.

I don't care to ruffle anyone's feathers, so point taken. I'll avoid word vomitting all over unrelated threads.

I tink this disscussion will never end, every single time you are bringing stuffs that either it was never intended in the manga or its my shitty memory. So lets do the conventional way, I will quote the part that I don't agree, you will provide me proof and you quote the part you don't agree and I will provide the proof. I think this way our disscussion will have a conclusion.

Reminder: Our disscussion is about whether Hiruzen was a competent leader?
My answer is no.
And yours is yes.

So lets start.


So tell me when Konoha become a village dominated by a single clan but not a democratic system. As far as I know, Hokage is not a sit reserve to any clan. Out of 7 Hokages, 3 were Senju while Tsunade was made only coz Jiraiya didn't wanted to be Hokage.
Senju and Uchiha were known as founding clan but none of them kept the gov under their control. During Thirds reign, I don't see any senju in the higher ups. MInd reminding one?

^Granted your point is also valid. But when has there ever been an Uchiha Hokage? Yes it's democratic, just as much as America. But there are unspoken standards that affect it... Aka Uchiha don't normally get important positions.. and never Hokage. Obviously that is due to the Second's influence and the drumming up of horror stories of the Uchiha started by their rival Clan.

So yes, you're right... It is a democratic system. But again, like any Democracy, it has tendencies to slide towards a particular set of people.


Nope. manga was set to happen Asura vs Indra not Senju vs Uchiha. After Madara's incident, senju become an insignificant clan which didn't even get mentioned in the manga. No notable jounin or ninja so far.
And Uchiha's coup was against the village higher ups, not against Senju. If you insist then provide me the scan.

I disagree. The Uchiha and Senju issue went well into the 2nd Hokage's term in office. Unless by 'Madara' incident you mean the Fox attack? Then yes. You're right. But my point is the Coup would incite the sparks of racism seeded by the Senju. It's more of Senju ideals vs Uchiha than actual physical combat... the Senju (not all, but you get the point) have always acted like the Uchiha were untrustable... So yes. You're right, No senju of note exist. I ment it in a More metaphorical way. So i guess we both agree here if you don't split hairs that is.


It wasn't senju but the higher ups that was treating them like second class citizen. As far as I remember everyone respect them as the strongest clan, everyone hope the best from them until Kyuubi's atack. So if you gonna insist on senju the show me the scan coz I don't remember any senju treating an Uchiha like second class except for maybe Tobirama(but he is the special case)

You can respect someone and dislike them. It's very possible to respect a person for their strength but zero them in as a bad person at face value. Them being 'second class' was a reference to the scan i showed where Oro said that the fact that Uchihas became police officers made them become disliked in the village and sent towards the edges of it as a result. If the citizens themselves came to dislike the uchiha who became lofty and pushed out of the village... i don't understand why you wouldn't think they were treated as second class citizens?

And there's the being forced into a single corner incident. If they were really a priority they wouldn't be treated that way is all I'm saying, but feel free to disagree. If the other citizens felt Uchiha mattered, then they wouldn't sit around and let this type of thing happen.


First French revolution don't include any slavery or solding human but because of nobles discriminating middle class people and peasants which was quite similar to Uchiha's situation. Do you remember RIGHT TO LIBERTY?

-The french revolution.... What? Sir, the french revolution had nobles literally starving the peasant population because there wasn't enough food for them to keep their exquisite life style in tact + feed the lower ends. There were waves of people who died to starvation + famine. They used economics to steal land from the poorer people of society and forced them to sell their kids into human labor to make up the deficit. So no. Nothing like the Uchihas.

But i get your point, and I'm not saying they didn't have an excuse, I'm just saying it isn't anything as heavy as what they make it seem is all. Again, perspective.


Second American revoluion against British rule was due to British treating American as second class citizen.
Every revolution happen due to many reasons, and the most common was discrimination, and it can happen in many form, like racism, sexism or slavery. none of them cannot be justify by any reason. If you are doing discrimination then you are inviting a revolution. You cannot suppress a human race forever.

^I agree with you here. Very valid.


And Itachi wasn't handed anbu, but its was Uchiha's decision to send an uchiha in the foundation as spy. DOn't twist it.

The AnBu is an elite force in the leaf village... You don't just waltz in. You have to be approved in some manner. I'd assume the Head of the Military.. the Hokage would be the one to look over your profile. Or at the very least Danzo would have to approve. But AnBu isn't a normal leaf shinobi rank, you don't just decide to pop in because you can. The AnBu are noted to be HAND PICKED by the Hokage. They don't just raise up in ranks.


One again Senju no longer had much political roles. And tell me what Coup de tat didn't execute old leaders. I have heard of none?
So its obvious they are going to excecute villages higher up provided they succeded.
Village leaders did the same to uchiha didn't they?

And one thing, I think you are under impression that I support the coup, but I am not by any means. All I think was village get what they saw. Uchiha's attempt to coup was the result of Second's and Third's policy(Hiruzen allowing Danzo to run Havoc). Not the Uchiha's fault. It was somthing that could have been avoided provided Third use his brain more and was more earnest in solving the problem.

I'll agree here as well... I think we're getting somewhere. And again, my bad. I ment idealogically speaking, obviously the only 'senju' of note is Tsunade. And i use that term very loosely. Unless you make the argument that most the leaf is of Senju descent... but that's another can of worms.


No uchiha only suspected.

Whether he activated or not, Itachi said he cannot use the genjutsu until that time when he used against himself to break free from Kabuto's control. So manga has given its answer, are you going to say Itachi was lieing there?

No. But i will say... it was implanted in a bird, so i don't know how much chakra that thing gave the eye... In all seriousness, Shisui lost the eye because he was going to use it on the Uchiha. The bit i said about him stopping them comes from here as well... I'm not sure which Game it was (Yes, it was a game, it was the only one that contained the cut scenes for this sequence so go figure) but Shisui was informed about how the peace talks went... he didn't like the result, so he told himself he was gonna cast genjutsu on the clan to make it better. Danzo thought it was a waste of time and took one of his eyes. Before Shisui fought Danzo and Narrowly got away to give Itachi his other eye. Afterwards committing suicide and ... history happened.

If Shisui was preparing to cast the genjutsu on the Uchiha, i assume it was ready. And since it's his eyes i'd take his word over Itachi's. That's all there is to that bit. Shisui wouldn't proclaim he is going to use the genjutsu in Danzo's face and it not actually be functional.


When? Mind giving any proof.

He didn't give Itachi Anbu status to show anything, but it was Uchiha's decision to send Itachi as spy. If you don't know Shisui was already in the anbu so allowing Itachi in anbu won't change anything.

Shisui was already in Anbu before Itachi join it. get for facts correct.

Again, I'm not saying they literally sent Shisui into the Black ops after Itachi. I mean they told him to watch Itachi. Also so we're clear the Databook says:

ANBU are handpicked by their respective Ho[kage] ...

Meaning the 3rd at least had to let Shisui and Itachi in. And there was never any Uchiha before them because of hatred towards Uchiha... so yes. He did something no other leader before him did.


Yes council consist of two old guys and Danzo. Which Tsunade show the middle finger to their advise. \

Again, context. You can tell someone to F- off who deserves respect. And you can listen to them against your will. Tsunade was always hardheaded, and Tobirama indirectly left the village to both Danzo and the 3rd. Obviously you can argue that the 3rd didn't owe danzo and the advisors squat and could've raged at them. But just like some people take their parent's words as law and some people are more than capable of rebelling against their parents, it is a matter of personal perspective and respect level towards those individuals. Arguing about this would be arguing if they deserved respect or not, and That's a gray zone for me so...


Itachi love his clans and his action was the only way to avoid more bloodshed and I didn't deny it, but you are failing to comprehend that my argument is about that situation/circumstances could have been avoided provided Hiruzen was a better capable leader.

Disputing facts in the quotes aside, I don't think the 3rd was the best... that is far from my point. I just believe he was stuck in a position where he couldn't do much of anything given the drama that existed before and during his campaign. Yes you can say strip danzo and stop itachi and elect itachi as Hokage candidate to stop them from raging at him. But all of these feel like temporary fixes to an issue that he couldn't fully solve in his life time. Even if he kept it from happening the issues would be Minatos to look over. Or Naruto's (assuming the succession is the same).

I just feel like he was Hokage at a bad point in history. Even if i was Hokage i wouldn't know what to do. Even modern day politicals can't get rid of sectioned violence against races and certain religious groups at the drop of a hat so i don't blame him.

 

[M3J]

I'd put the Second above Third and maybe above First because he was willing to do whatever it took to protect Konoha, although some of his methods weren't good (like discriminating the Uchihas).

 

[Machi-tan]

^ I agree. If we're talking pure ethics...

1st
3rd
4th
2nd.

In that order. We never touched on Minato's perspective of the Uchiha skeptism, but he allowed his pregnant wife to visit the Uchiha quarters to see her friend, so at the very least, he wasn't scared of them.

Functionality...

2nd
3rd
1st
4th

Only because the Second literally did everything he could to see peace go down. He wasn't a dreamer like the first who thought... let's just put people that don't like each other next to one another long enough and they'll find common ground soon enough... The 3rd was the first to allow Uchiha into a high military rank (ANBU) the 1st united the village, but i think it hurt more than it helped honestly. And Minato was never shown doing anything about it so that's the reason why i placed him last. Not that he isn't capable.

 

[M3J]

I see nothing wrong with allowing Uchiha into a high military rank. Trusting them was actually a good thing, and it was the lack of trust that led the Uchihas to plan a revolt. Morals and ethics don't matter as much, given that Hiruzen did a lot of damage, while Hashirama's power is likely why he could get away with being so soft.

If there was a what-if story, I'd love to see Minato as the hokage. I think with his portrayal before Edo Tensei, Minato could have been a great combination of Hiruzen and Tobirama. Kind, but willing to do whatever is needed. Could have stopped Danzou or kept tighter reins on him and somehow find a way to settle things with the Uchiha. I wouldn't be shocked if Minato turned out to be one of the greatest kage just because he knew how to balance logic with compassion.

 

[nichendrix]

I see nothing wrong with allowing Uchiha into a high military rank. Trusting them was actually a good thing, and it was the lack of trust that led the Uchihas to plan a revolt. Morals and ethics don't matter as much, given that Hiruzen did a lot of damage, while Hashirama's power is likely why he could get away with being so soft.

If there was a what-if story, I'd love to see Minato as the hokage. I think with his portrayal before Edo Tensei, Minato could have been a great combination of Hiruzen and Tobirama. Kind, but willing to do whatever is needed. Could have stopped Danzou or kept tighter reins on him and somehow find a way to settle things with the Uchiha. I wouldn't be shocked if Minato turned out to be one of the greatest kage just because he knew how to balance logic with compassion.

The anime, even though it never really delve into Minato's reign as Hokage have some interesting arcs with the consequences of the actions of Danzou including how he was involved on the Uchiha Massacre and later how Hiruzen dismantled most of Danzou's powerbase. These flashbacks spamed times prior to Minato's reign, during briefly Minato's reign and after Minato's Reign. It also portrays more clearly Danzou's relationship with Orochimaru, Hanzou, Itachi, Kakashi, Tenzou (Yamato).

It is implied that Danzou's power and Ne's Structure doesn't respond to the Hokage, but to the Council (the same that chooses the Hokage), which the Hokage is just a member and military leader and that no Hokage, even Minato was aware of most of his dealings, unless these dealings have to be addressed by the council. That changed after the Uchiha massacre, when Hiruzen finally convince the council that Danzou's dealings did so much harm that he had to be stopped, and he personally go to put Danzou out of office.

Imagine that while the Hokage is the leader of the joint armed forces, Danzou was the leader of the CIA, even though they have a lot of dealings in common and ultimately have to answer tho the chief of state (in the case of Narutoverse, it is unclear who this figure would be), they don't have any subordination relationship.

 

[Machi-tan]

I'm sorry i think i worded that weird. I ment to say that the 3rd's decision to finally approve Uchiha to be in the Anbu was a good thing.

while the First's decision to pin people that were literally killing each other a month prior to the decision to live together, probably did more damage than good.

So you're right, it was a great idea to give the Uchiha a chance to prove themselves in a higher ranked military fashion. It just ruffles my feathers that after getting the rank, the Uchiha saw it as a chance to get info to preform their coup. But that's on an opinionated basis.

And i agree with you. Given Time I'm sure the issues between the clans would've worked out.

Minato's biggest mistake in the whole series was not using FTG to recover Obito's body ... I mean didn't he have a seal on all 3 of his students + wife? When he got news Obito was dead, if he retrieved the body to be buried then we would've avoided so much plot... and Obito could get friendzoned in reality rather than in his dream world.

And i use the Term 'mistake' loosely. I'm not trying to call Minato out. I just find it a funny over sight... like how Naruto probably could've recreated Kakashi's Sharingan eye instead a normal one. Or how Obito went from a 14 year old to a full grown adult when he faced Minato.

 

[Holt]

while the First's decision to pin people that were literally killing each other a month prior to the decision to live together, probably did more damage than good.

Actually that's incorrect. The first wanted a truce between the clans and then he and Madara (as well as their clans) decided to join up and build a village. In actuality, Hashirama did the most for the ninja world and shinobi. His actions ultimately led to the end of the war era and also became basis on which every village stands. There would be no villages without him and the war era would have raged on. Also, as far as we know, the uchiha and senju were indeed living without strive. Both sides had been fighting so long that the peace was a very much welcome outcomes. The problem was actually tobirama. His measures and paranoia regarding the uchiha is what eventually led to the Madara and later the uchiha turning antagonists.

Minato's biggest mistake in the whole series was not using FTG to recover Obito's body ... I mean didn't he have a seal on all 3 of his students + wife? When he got news Obito was dead, if he retrieved the body to be buried then we would've avoided so much plot... and Obito could get friendzoned in reality rather than in his dream world.

And i use the Term 'mistake' loosely. I'm not trying to call Minato out. I just find it a funny over sight... like how Naruto probably could've recreated Kakashi's Sharingan eye instead a normal one. Or how Obito went from a 14 year old to a full grown adult when he faced Minato.

Actually, that's not feasible. Remember that they though Obito was smashed in under the rubble. You can't expect Minato to have used FTG to try and get him. It isn't even feasible. He didn't just get news about obito's death, he arrived on the scene to save kakashi and obviously seeing the smashed in cave, would assume Obito was dead and it doesn't classify as an oversight.

Naruto couldn't have recreated Kakashi's sharingan either because that wasn't his eye. He used Kakashi's DNA or whatever to recreate the eye and kakashi doesn't have sharingan genes in him. You're suggesting Naruto could literally grant a non-uchiha a sharingan.

 

[tobiasparker]

Just showing off my Naruto t-shirt

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[M3J]

The anime, even though it never really delve into Minato's reign as Hokage have some interesting arcs with the consequences of the actions of Danzou including how he was involved on the Uchiha Massacre and later how Hiruzen dismantled most of Danzou's powerbase. These flashbacks spamed times prior to Minato's reign, during briefly Minato's reign and after Minato's Reign. It also portrays more clearly Danzou's relationship with Orochimaru, Hanzou, Itachi, Kakashi, Tenzou (Yamato).

It is implied that Danzou's power and Ne's Structure doesn't respond to the Hokage, but to the Council (the same that chooses the Hokage), which the Hokage is just a member and military leader and that no Hokage, even Minato was aware of most of his dealings, unless these dealings have to be addressed by the council. That changed after the Uchiha massacre, when Hiruzen finally convince the council that Danzou's dealings did so much harm that he had to be stopped, and he personally go to put Danzou out of office.

Imagine that while the Hokage is the leader of the joint armed forces, Danzou was the leader of the CIA, even though they have a lot of dealings in common and ultimately have to answer tho the chief of state (in the case of Narutoverse, it is unclear who this figure would be), they don't have any subordination relationship.

It's anime, not sure if I can take what they say seriously..... I don't see why Danzou would go to the council either, it'd kill the whole reason for Root. They weren't answerable to anyone but Danzou himself, who operated under Hiruzen's nose as Hiruzen had to keep the good image.

I'm sorry i think i worded that weird. I ment to say that the 3rd's decision to finally approve Uchiha to be in the Anbu was a good thing.

while the First's decision to pin people that were literally killing each other a month prior to the decision to live together, probably did more damage than good.

It did not. Don't forget that both side agreed to the truce, and the Uchiha wholeheartedly supported Hashirama as a hokage. Tobirama was the problem here, not Madara, Hashirama, or anyone else. If he didn't say the things he did to Hashirama, Madara would not have turned; we see that he was perfectly fine with Hashirama being the hokage, but he had reservations about Tobirama, as Tobirama had reservations about Madara and the Uchiha.

Even after Tobirama moving the Uchiha and shit, they were still working for Konoha and helping them. I don't get why the Uchiha are blamed when Tobirama, Danzou, and Tobi fucked things up and helped Danzou and the elders blame Uchiha and have them massacred.

So you're right, it was a great idea to give the Uchiha a chance to prove themselves in a higher ranked military fashion. It just ruffles my feathers that after getting the rank, the Uchiha saw it as a chance to get info to preform their coup. But that's on an opinionated basis.

Not really. They planned the coup way after the elders and Hiruzen stripped them of political equality and refused to give it back because they believed the Uchiha may have had a hand in the Kyuubi breaking free despite no proof. Otherwise I'm sure the Uchiha have held high military ranks for decades. Had the elders not treated them like shit, the Uchiha would have no reason to plan a coup.

Minato's biggest mistake in the whole series was not using FTG to recover Obito's body ... I mean didn't he have a seal on all 3 of his students + wife? When he got news Obito was dead, if he retrieved the body to be buried then we would've avoided so much plot... and Obito could get friendzoned in reality rather than in his dream world.

And i use the Term 'mistake' loosely. I'm not trying to call Minato out. I just find it a funny over sight... like how Naruto probably could've recreated Kakashi's Sharingan eye instead a normal one. Or how Obito went from a 14 year old to a full grown adult when he faced Minato.

To be fair, Obito was buried in rubble. I'm not sure if he could use Hiraishin unless he could phase through rocks, and Minato probably thought no one would know Obito's body would be there. Plus, it's not like anyone expected Obito to go through the ground and be discovered by someone who was long thought to be dead.

 

[Machi-tan]

@Holt

For the first point. It didn't? The bonding of the Uchiha and Senju caused the villages to spur into action and quite literally started the first great Shinobi war. And the First Hokage and Second Hokage died as a result.

What ended was the Warring states period, which was chaos because it was every clan for themselves. Then after the Uchiha and the Senju bonded, other clans took notice and merged as well. This then escalated from random skirmishes between various clans that had nothing to do with each other into organised military warfare. Hashirama tried to fix this by giving out the tailed beasts as balancing tools.. but that didn't end well for him at all.

And you took my statement out of context. I specifically said the act of making two enemies live together only months after conflict wasn't a good idea. I never said the Truce wasn't a good idea.

He could've let them desegregate or get to mix themselves at a slower pace. And he should've known that pushing them in close proximity when both sides still had fresh gripes... would bring out the claws in both parties. At the very least, he should've known that the current generation would be hard grained with harsh ideals towards one another (Tobirama is a prime example). His sheer optimism is what i was saying doesn't fly.

Secondly, i find the cave in point valid.

But again, it was a very loose 'mistake'. I just find it funny because Orochimaru was 'active' around this time. I recall the Third Hokage catching him doing human experiments during his term in office, and as a result they tried their best to keep Kekkai genkai genetics from floating around in the world. That's why there were efforts to recover some of the bodies of key shinobi to save their DNA from Oro/anyone else... In the end they failed because they got all the samples they needed anyway... but with Oro obsessed over Kekkai genkai and the sharingan in particular you'd expect someone to connect the dots and make some type of recovery effort.

Whether or not Naruto could fundamentally give Kakashi a Sharingan is questionable, specially since he used Kakashi's DNA, that's granted. But there wasn't exactly a shortage of Obito's chakra/blood on the battle field. He could've used a 'piece' of Obito just as easily. But again, questionable i'll agree with you. But i don't think it was impossible, since Obito converted both Kakashi's eyes into Sharingan, there must be something fundamentally doable for something like that to occur.
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Not really. They planned the coup way after the elders and Hiruzen stripped them of political equality and refused to give it back because they believed the Uchiha may have had a hand in the Kyuubi breaking free despite no proof. Otherwise I'm sure the Uchiha have held high military ranks for decades. Had the elders not treated them like shit, the Uchiha would have no reason to plan a coup.

They did have 'proof'. Madara/Tobi had a hand to do with it. Whether or not his proof was real... or it was a lie that Danzo made up so the others would go along with him, we never get to see 'said' proof. We just know Danzo accepted the wordplay of Tobi/Madara and let the attack get set up.

Your statement also confuses me, it seems like we agree but we don't? I'm saying the thing you are, I find it nice that they finally got a higher rank (as in since the 2nd hokage, finally allowed to be AnBu in a decompressed fashion). I'm not calling out their skill if that's whta i made it seem like. I find it nice that since the 2nd's poisonous rule, a Hokage trusted them enough to allow them into the leaf village's CIA.

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It did not. Don't forget that both side agreed to the truce, and the Uchiha wholeheartedly supported Hashirama as a hokage. Tobirama was the problem here, not Madara, Hashirama, or anyone else. If he didn't say the things he did to Hashirama, Madara would not have turned; we see that he was perfectly fine with Hashirama being the hokage, but he had reservations about Tobirama, as Tobirama had reservations about Madara and the Uchiha.

Even after Tobirama moving the Uchiha and shit, they were still working for Konoha and helping them. I don't get why the Uchiha are blamed when Tobirama, Danzou, and Tobi fucked things up and helped Danzou and the elders blame Uchiha and have them massacred.

Again, you're taking my words out of context. I ment the quick and fast integration as neighbors. I'm not questioning Hashirama. I'm not questioning the Truce. I'm saying the first was too eager to make everyone get along, he believed that shoving everyone together and making them neighbors would make everything better. But it didn't. Which even the Manga points out that he failed to find a solution and made it the 2nd's issue to solve by forcing the Uchiha and Senju together and then Dying in the first great shinobi war.

I agree with you everywhere else. I'm not blaming the Uchiha. I think the crime boiled down to Danzo, Tobi/Madara, and Tobirama. Fencing blame outside that group is difficult.

I just think the first should've consider the obvious issues of putting to clans that used to be sworn enemies together to quickly.

 

[M3J]

And you took my statement out of context. I specifically said the act of making two enemies live together only months after conflict wasn't a good idea. I never said the Truce wasn't a good idea.

He could've let them desegregate or get to mix themselves at a slower pace. And he should've known that pushing them in close proximity when both sides still had fresh gripes... would bring out the claws in both parties. At the very least, he should've known that the current generation would be hard grained with harsh ideals towards one another (Tobirama is a prime example). His sheer optimism is what i was saying doesn't fly.

The thing is, there seemed to be no bad blood between the two clans, we saw them getting along and the losing side voting for the single reason for their losses as the hokage, while turning their backs on their savior. There was nothing wrong with how Hashirama did things, neither side had any claws, not even Madara.

It was Tobirama that was the problem with the shit he said. Even Madara was willing to get past Tobirama killing his only brother until he thought Tobirama was planning to reduce the Uchiha to lapdogs or annihilate them when he became hokage.