Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2015] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Schabrak]

To make it very simple we can compare the quality of pictures:

It's in no way subjetive that the quality turn better as we go from the left to the right.

The same can be said about manga. The quality of the story, the art, the intent behind the plot and drawings, the composition and etc, it all can be judged accordingly and turned an non-ambiguous rating by those knowledgable with the topic of manga, art and story telling. Some readers are satisfied with lower quality works, while others seek masterful works only, while others can disregard problematic features of a manga to enjoy and be entertained by the product, because they like parts of it.

I won't judge people on what they read, but I can surely say that Black Clover mediocre compared to other manga of the same genre. One can enjoy a product, while also being annoyed at parts of it too.

 

[SharkBait]

To make it very simple we can compare the quality of pictures:

It's in no way subjetive that the quality turn better as we go from the left to the right.

The same can be said about manga.

If that is comparable to manga, then your example actually strongly supports the claim that the newer the manga then the better it is due to being newer (BLack Clover) with the use of newer and more refined techniques, artwork embracing the newest and latest in digital technologies (World Trigger). There is no input involved from opinion as over time that which is newer will be better because of technology. This enables you all to reach the same conclusion that I have which is to conclude that manga like BLack Clover are currently definitively good, while things like Hunter x Hunter, Dragonball, One Piece are not good since they are older.

 

[Xzone]

By your definition, Black Clover would still be consider poor quality. By the definition you provided, quality is also based on how a product is compared to other products. Black Clover is easily when of the most terribly written series to grace the pages of Jump in recent years. Yet it found success want to know why? Well me too. I would like to know why Black Clover has found success when other series written by more competent writers (ex: Stealth Symphony, Iron Knight, heck even Kagamigami with it's eminent demise) have not. I get it, people have different tastes, but I feel there is a certain standard when it comes to story telling. I just don't feel Black Clover follows that standard. It has: terrible pacing. unfunny and forced character interactions, and some of the shallowest story telling in recent years.
Black Clover just isn't good. However, it somehow found a dedicated audience, surprising considering Jump's fickle crowd, to vote for it.
I've already read several post of what people think about Black Clover on here. Half hate it; Half enjoy it. I'm on the side that reads it, but still has a distaste for it no matter how hard I try to like it. I enjoyed Hungry Joker, but Black Clover isn't anywhere near as creative as Hungry Joker. I'm just stating my opinion on the Black Clover mater, so please don't turn this into a string of post arguing about Black Clover's quality *glares at SharkBait* In the end it's opinion based, just as everything else in this world is.

Black Clover isn't tne worst writing thing serialized in WSJ, sporting salt and other series take this place.

Read this
Seems like people forget what is "Quality" mean. It's a perspectives. In the end to satisfy the consumer. It synchronized with what people like and what people need.

You can say the series have no quality because you don't like it, and other people also can say that series have good quality because they like it.

Not the "All is subjetive" again, this topic is become very boring years ago.The series is objetive bad in the writing(I dropped the series so I don't know if improved the quality but I doubt any improve ), and subjetive would be good or bad depend of your taste, but let not go in the magical world of "everything is good".Ifs the manga entertainement you ok because it is his mission but reality shows also entertainement people, hav8e these show quality writing? No, because entertainement you/good art/Fanservice/other thing=subjetive good , good writing, character or make something original in a good way = objetive good=quality.

And stop discuss BC, They have a topic if a remember, better talk about other thing.

 

[conankudo]

Black Clover isn't tne worst writing thing serialized in WSJ, sporting salt and other series take this place.


Not the "All is subjetive" again, this topic is become very boring years ago.The series is objetive bad in the writing(I dropped the series so I don't know if improved the quality but I doubt any improve ), and subjetive would be good or bad depend of your taste, but let not go in the magical world of "everything is good".Ifs the manga entertainement you ok because it is his mission but reality shows also entertainement people, hav8e these show quality writing? No, because entertainement you/good art/Fanservice/other thing=subjetive good , good writing, character or make something original in a good way = objetive good=quality.

And stop discuss BC, They have a topic if a remember, better talk about other thing.

Nope! That is a statement that I can't share. That is the typical ungrounded nonsense you hear from all the manga snobs

 

[Schabrak]

SharkBait: The photo quality comparison only works for photos, I thought that was obvious as I was only simplifying the term quality.

Yeah sure newer manga have often 'better' looking art, they aren't blocky or simplified as those from the 60s to 90s, but they still look great, if you aren't reading an illegal Edited Manga. ;-)

Togashi, Toriyama, Oda, Miura, pretty much everyone has gotten better at drawing compared to their beginnings, that absolutely undeniable. But that's only one half of the medallion. One that's pleasing to the eye, not the mind.

I have no interest in arguing about those series.

 

[TyVip]

I have two questions , is this the definition of a successful anime adaption boost WSJ manga sales ?
in 2011 , kuroko no basket had 1,712,983 sales
in 2012 (anime aired April 7-September 22) , kuroko no basket had 8,070,446 sales and 8,761,081 in 2013

In 2013, Haikyuu!! had 2,056,211 sales
At 2014 first half , it had 2,249,431 sales ( between Nov 17-May 18,2014) . When the anime aired April 6 to September 21, Haikyuu had 8,283,709 sales . In 2015, it has 4,687,023 sales currently

With bring me too my next question, is Shokugeki no Souma anime a bust? Or is that just natural for WSJ's sport manga ?

In 2014, SnS had 2,644,122 sales
At 2015 first half, it had 1,654,498 sales ( between Nov 17-May 17, 2015). The anime is currently airing between April 3 to September 25, SnS has 3,500,317 sales currently.

This is my first time looking at the manga sales, so there are many things i don't know . Thanks you for answering my question .

 

[SharkBait]

I think a successful anime boost would be one that lasts, some series get an increase only while airing then fall back down as the tail grows longer and longer, while others stay high. I think the definition would also be clouded by series that were already near million sellers before the anime started.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

I have two questions , is this the definition of a successful anime adaption boost WSJ manga sales ?
in 2011 , kuroko no basket had 1,712,983 sales
in 2012 (anime aired April 7-September 22) , kuroko no basket had 8,070,446 sales and 8,761,081 in 2013

In 2013, Haikyuu!! had 2,056,211 sales
At 2014 first half , it had 2,249,431 sales ( between Nov 17-May 18,2014) . When the anime aired April 6 to September 21, Haikyuu had 8,283,709 sales . In 2015, it has 4,687,023 sales currently

With bring me too my next question, is Shokugeki no Souma anime a bust? Or is that just natural for WSJ's sport manga ?

In 2014, SnS had 2,644,122 sales
At 2015 first half, it had 1,654,498 sales ( between Nov 17-May 17, 2015). The anime is currently airing between April 3 to September 25, SnS has 3,500,317 sales currently.

This is my first time looking at the manga sales, so there are many things i don't know . Thanks you for answering my question .

Kuroko no Basket and Haikyuu anime boost in terms of WSJ isn't just successful, but ones of the most successful ever for the Magazine if not everywhere. Those series after the anime increased like 2-3 times in size, compared with their fanbase before the anime.
Now do you consider successful only the best of the best boosts, or the more modest boosts count?

I would call a successful animation adaptation boost one that brings a significant number of people to the series. I consider the 100k copies the margin between mainstream and niche, meaning that if a series surpasses that is in a way or another mainstream. With that in mind, if a series after the anime is able to bring at least 100k new people, is successful.

Sometime ago I made this simple list of how to see a series volumes sales:

<10k -> doesn't(normally) appear in the Top 50 Oricon list.
---
10k -> Entering niche popularity. Profitable and reliable for the author(around 5k dollars per volume), but nothing especial.
25k -> Niche series(12.5k dollars/volume).
50k -> Great niche series(25k dollars/volume).
---
100k -> Entering mainstream popularity. Normally considered the Minimum for a Weekly Shonen Jump series(50k dollars/volume).
300k -> Mainstream series(150k dollars/volume).
500k -> Great mainstream series(250k dollars/volume).
---
700k -> Entering the super stardom (350k dollars/volume).
1M -> Super stardom(500k dollars/volume). Last year, only 4 series reached this place(One Piece, Attack on Titan, Naruto, Kimi ni Todoke).
>2M -> Mega stardom. Only One Piece is able to do this. Attack on Titan does close within a year time span with 1.9M, so can also be considered as such.(Oda earns around 1.5M dollars per volume).

I believe you can also look at that list and reach a good conclusion about a series boost(anime or anything else), by looking at its situation before and after the boost.

For Example:
Haikyuu Before the anime was selling around 300k, so it was a comfortable mainstream series. Now after the anime, its volumes sell around 800-900k copies and maybe some volumes in the end of the year will be able to reach 1M, that is Entrance of Super Stardom and probably Definitive Super Stardom by the end of the year.
The anime made it jump 2 top places in the list, and so it was a mega boost.

If I'm not wrong, Shokugeki no Soma was selling around 250k copies before the anime, Entrance of Mainstream(almost Comfortable Mainstream), and now is selling around 400-450k copies after the anime, Comfortable Mainstream(almost Great Mainstream). So it was a great boost, not exceptional, but great.


About the boost Kuroko no basket and Haikyuu!! got being normal to sport manga. No, it isn't a normal sport manga boost. Though it could be said that they got that incredible boost mainly due to the Fujoshi fanbase. Recently(I believe since Prince of Tennis), the Fujoshi fanbase is more directed to sport manga and anime. So probably the sport series with "pretty and shippable boys" get better boosts.
Note that Yowamushi Pedal and Ace of Diamond didn't got the crazy Kuroko no Basket and Haikyuu!! increase in sales due to the anime, but they are still popular in the Fujoshi fanbase(maybe not as much as Kuroko and Haikyuu :P).

 

[Soul Soul Brigade]

After thinking, I'm going to revise my statement. I agree with Schabrak, quality isn't opinion based. Something of a higher quality will appear better than something of a lower quality, obviously, but this isn't an opinion generated by the masses. For example, I personally don't like D. Gray Man, but it's not because it has poor writing, not from what I've read, but because I just could never get into it. It has a somewhat original concept, decent pacing and interesting characters. However, I just could never get into for its length and I watched the anime before I read the manga.
What I stated above is a personal opinion.
Quality in a story is decided by a general set of rules. How believable are the characters? Do they flow well with the story? How original is the story? How well does the story progress; does it progress at a decent pace, or is it to rushed?
Black Clover for example doesn’t meet any of these requirements. Black Clover has generic troupe based characters with simple goals who, over all, don’t flow with the story. The characters guide a story, not the other way around. This also leads into the problem with the story. The setting isn’t original. The setting doesn’t even follow the generic Tolkein’ set-up most fantasies like to go with, instead it goes with Dragon Quest world. It’s like Tabata played a Dragon Quest game and decided “Hey, why don’t I write a doujinshi!” and then proceeded to turn that doujinshi into a serial, and don’t even get me started on the pacing. From what I remember of Hungry Joker, it was decently paced. What went wrong with Black Clover? Character arcs done in single chapters, no set up for that character either. It’s like: here’s a character, and here’s his tragic story, now care about him!
I feel like Black Clover was supposed to be Tabata’s Barrage. You know how Horikoshi-sensei did failed with Barrage, which was very generic and was nowhere near as original as his Zoo manga, then turned out the great story that is My Hero Academia. My Hero Academia obviously shows that it’s had a lot of time put into. Heck, the original one-shot was back from when Horikoshi-sensei was still a novice. It just feels like Tabata did Black Clover in order to buy some time, and then, awkwardly, it found success. The more Black Clover goes on the more it feels like that. I have faith in Tabata, maybe that’s the only reason why I keep reading Black Clover each week in hopes that it will improve, and yes, some chapters end up being fun to read, but most just end up being less then acceptable to outright wastes of space.
If you read Black Clover and enjoy it, good for you. I’m happy for you, but just because you like doesn’t mean it’s good. Some people liked Sporting Salt. Some people liked E-Robot. Some people liked Lady Justice. People are able to judge and review things by following certain principles. These principals provide a basis on how to grade somethings quality. The reviewer may personally like the thing they are reviewing, however, they may give it a negative review when looking at it from a critical stand point. Again, if you enjoy Black Clover good for you. Personally, I find it ok. I don’t look forward to reading it, but I’ll read it whenever the next chapter is available.

 

[chrisbj]

Ayy Brave Souls got to 5 million downloads.......

So Bleach still has a big fan base. ...

 

[RafaFedKilla]

I hope Jump takes hold of that Rugby fever and we get a rugby manga soon. Try Zone in Jump Next last year was pretty decent but it didn't have the dynamic to compete in Jump.

 

[WyldViolet]

I hope Jump takes hold of that Rugby fever and we get a rugby manga soon. Try Zone in Jump Next last year was pretty decent but it didn't have the dynamic to compete in Jump.

I'd like another soccer manga.
We haven't had a successful soccer series in Jump in 18 years (1998; in which two popular soccer manga debuted).

 

[Mammo]

shonen jump plus turns 1 y/o tomorrow

when it was launched it had over 30 titles

over 20 manga have been cancelled since then

pretty much everything that is not a spinoff/sequel/moved from the main magazine got axed

 

[Eru13]

shonen jump plus turns 1 y/o tomorrow

when it was launched it had over 30 titles

over 20 manga have been cancelled since then

pretty much everything that is not a spinoff/sequel/moved from the main magazine got axed

Lol not really, even if most of the best selling series (as in tankoubon sales) in Jump+ are the kinds you mentioned, that doesn't mean there aren't any other series

I mean, take eldlive which is popular even if it's kinda irregular on its serialization, or Nekota Biyori which has been coming out daily all year, or Tonkatsu DJ Agetarou which is even getting an anime...
There are plenty of other series, don't bash on the whole platform just because some series you liked got axed (I mean, I'm kinda pissed they cancelled EXP:0 and Rough Diamond but I won't bash the whole platform just because of that)

 

[Mammo]

i wasn't bashing it, i was just listing some interesting facts

i like plus & i think it provide a great alternative for mangakas that can't get a place in the main magazine

they just need to promote it more

 

[Lehran]

This is a preview for Jump Next #05-2015, to be released on October 13th. It seems that it will include oneshots by the authors of Kaizou Ningen Roggy and E-Robot... but I'd be glad if someone who can actually read Japanese could confirm it.

---------- Post added at 05:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 AM ----------

We haven't had a successful soccer series in Jump in 18 years (1998; in which two popular soccer manga debuted).

Two? Whistle and what else?

 

[WyldViolet]

This is a preview for Jump Next #05-2015, to be released on October 13th. It seems that it will include oneshots by the authors of Kaizou Ningen Roggy and E-Robot... but I'd be glad if someone who can actually read Japanese could confirm it.

---------- Post added at 05:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 AM ----------



Two? Whistle and what else?

To be honest, I was thinking about Rookies. A series I haven't read yet but for some reason incorrectly assumed it was about soccer until I just googled it.
Sorry about that.

 

[Deathinteresse]

Kuroko no Basuke anime gets film
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-09-20/kuroko-basketball-anime-gets-film/.93180

 

[Soul Soul Brigade]

This is a preview for Jump Next #05-2015, to be released on October 13th. It seems that it will include oneshots by the authors of Kaizou Ningen Roggy and E-Robot... but I'd be glad if someone who can actually read Japanese could confirm it.

---------- Post added at 05:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 AM ----------



Two? Whistle and what else?

Oh cool, the author of Roggy is doing a one-shot. Might have to pick this up. I liked Roggy, the character design was a little odd for Jump, but it was very fun to read while it lasted. His new character designs look interesting, even if a bit odd, but more shonen like, at least compared to Roggy.
Jump's rookies seem to be getting better in each installment of NEXT.

 

[RafaFedKilla]

Yeah I would've expected for the Roggy mangaka to return soon. If he were to get a serialization he needs a new editor and some better assistants. He couldn't handle a serialization, it was pretty apparent. He took a good concept and made it pretty myopic after the first several chapters and he lost the dynamism with his art. Jump is too deep to make those mistakes. Hopefully he learns because his baseline talent was great.