If you take away the side effects of Gear 4, he didn't struggle that much.DD's awakening was inefficient against Gear 4 and whoever claims otherwise needs to get his head checked or something, or simply doesn't read the same manga.So it's not as much Luffy struggling against DD as the fight not being clear cut, without interference.Those made it look like Luffy can't take on DD by himself. Law's gamma knife wasn't necessary, as Luffy still had Gear 4 in store that without a doubt was efficient against DD.He even made sure he had a stronger punch in case it wasn't enough.Again the only inconvenience was the side effects, that had Luffy run for 3 or 4 chapters, once he gets over them like he did with Gear 2 he shouldn't have much of a problem to use Gear 4 which at this point is his strongest technique.
So I'm really not convinced that Law's help was necessary, he simply wanted to have a shot at killing DD but since he couldn't subdue him he let Luffy take care of it.Gamma knife might not have dealed that much of a damage, since DD could suture himself.And again this type of writing his problematic, it certainly doesn't give us a clear idea of how strong Luffy was, and if he really won by his own or it was that DD was already too weakened by Law's attack.And wow people are hyping up Sabo too much, I really don't see the gap between him and Luffy to be that big...
Frankly I think so.I don't think he's that powerful, simply resistant.I think this might be an attribute of Kaido and Jack's race. He also uses a lot of weapons so he's more like a skilled killer.If he couldn't really defeat the minks by normal means, then that clearly shows that they were able to stand up to him, both Inuarashi and Nekomamushi. It's the gas that gave him the edge. So he might not be as strong as some would think.And I'm pretty sure right now that his men are just fodder, just look at Sheepshead who really didn't stand a chance against someone like Sanji. Again people are already getting too hyped, and having too many expectations which is a real problem, since they often end up being disappointed like in the Dressrosa arc.
It's not overrated it's a logical one.No matter what you claim Law wasn't strong enough to deal with DD himself. So he let Luffy take care of things.
If Law was able to deal enough damage with Gamma knife and his Ope Ope no mi abilities, then there would have been no need for Luffy's assistance no?
Which is why it's not necessary to have them help him, he will be the one who fights not just Jack one on one, but soon Kaido too.
Based on how things went in the first part of the manga, Luffy became stronger with each fight.At first when he used Gear 2 he wasn't able to use it properly. But during the Summit war he was able to bypass his limitations, and overall the more he used it the more he was able to control it. The same will happen with Gear 4 and it's entirely possible that he has something else in store, or he will develop other techniques in the future. Also you seem to forget that he's been training for 2 years, so he wasn't sitting on his ass doing nothing.
During those 2 years he learned how to properly use Haki with its 3 colors, then he made Gear 4 and who knows what else.
So I think rather that you are underestimating Luffy, the training alone isn't enough, he needs to fight strong opponents.Which is why he needs to fight Jack and beat him .And you are overestimating Law's help, DD was able to suture himself, and fight so he prolly wasn't that affected by Gamma knife.
And you also seem to have forgotten that DD's stronger techniques that are tied to the awakening didn't do anything against Gear 4 and in particular God thread who simply didn't do anything against King Kong Gun.It's not just about defense. DD was able to tank in Luffy's attacks before he used King Kong Gun, but his attacks didn't do anything.
The only moment he hurt Luffy was when the latter was Hakiless.
And I can't see what's wrong about having an opinion, that just turns out to be the one most people share. As long as it makes sense to me and maybe even to others I will continue to say that Luffy was indeed able to beat DD not because of Law, but because Gear 4 simply was too overwhelming.Or what I'm supposed to agree with you just because this opinion is "overrated"?
You do know this is a forum right? And each person have their opinion and they're free to stand by it. So if you want to make your point, you have to come up with real facts, and not just some petty rhetoric like this one.
So please spare me the unnecessary debate about whether Luffy was really stronger than DD, he was or else he wouldn't have been able to beat him in the first place.
Personally I do think law's help was necessarily. Doflamingo is by far the strongest enemy luffy has fought up to this point. His power was so insane that gear 2 luffy was not strong enough to do any damage and gear 3 was not fast enough to land a hit. He fought law and had a relatively easy victory over him. It was in subsequent fights where law was lucky to catch him off guard. Law basically chipped away at doflamingo's monstrous strength and the end result was luffy having a chance.
Surely the wounds law gave doflamingo have not killed other people who have a certain degree of strength but that still does not mean the damage doflamingo took did not contribute to luffy winning in the end. They are wounds that don't kill people and perhaps doflamingo can handle them better than others but even then those are wounds that take away to his strength. I don't think it is possible that there is a wound or damage doflamingo can take and still be at 100%. So you have doflamingo who got stabbed at least once by law (that I recall) and then the gamma knife which slashed his organs. Doflamingo doesn't heal himself, the manga makes that clear, he simply stitches himself up but still needs proper healing. One way or the other this is real damage doflamingo took.
And also worth noting, even with all the damage doflamingo took, luffy still didn't win against doflamingo in one go. Luffy needed one more punch to defeat doflamingo in his first use of gear 4 but... he didn't get to land the punch, he ran out of juice. And he needed a solid ten minutes to recover. The only reason luffy won is because his allies protected him. And even that was against a doflamingo whom before that fight had taken damage repeatedly from law. His insides were not healed, they were stitched up. Sure, once luffy recovered he landed the punch he needed to win but that wasn't solely luffy's merit. Luffy won because of his nakama that backed him up, not because of his own strength. Which in context is exactly what the manga as a whole is about. Personally I think that if luffy and doflamingo had a straight fight with both at 100% doflamingo would win with relative ease. He will take a solid pounding when luffy uses gear 4 but then it will run out and doflamingo will kill luffy with ease. Even if luffy does get his second run, he won't be guaranteed a win considering doflamingo will have none of the damage he accumulated through his fight with law. Sure, luffy did take some damage from fighting bellamy however in context it was nowhere near what doflamingo went through.
Before Law's countershock or Gamma Kinfe, Luffy held his own against Joker until Law interfered.
After Law's Gamma Knife failure, Luffy still held his own as he previously did.
SO, what exactly is Law being credited for if he still couldn't dominate Joker with Gear 2nd?
If Luffy defeated Joker just with Gear 2 AFTER the Gamma Knife + Counter Shock, one could entertain the possibility that his attacks were instrumental in Luffy's victory over Joker.
However, Luffy still needed Gear 4th because Gear 2nd wasn't getting him anywhere, so Law really wasn't that instrumental in Joker's defeat.
The main thing Law did:
Was buy Luffy enough time by taking out Trebol to keep it 1 v 1 against Joiker.
and Law also wasn't the only one who bought Luffy time to level the playing field.
Had Joker not been running away from Gear 4th the entire time, Luffy would have defeated him because that Leo Bazooka pretty much incapacitated Joker; Had Luffy been able to land his King Kong fun, Joker would have been defeated there and then.
Joker was of course smart and let Luffy run out of haki before counter attacking, but that is not a head-on tactic which can be described to be pretty cowardly and evident that Luffy's Gear 4 power was simply overwhelming.
So, both had their advantages that they couldn't take, but in the end, the result showed that Luffy was indeed superior to Joker.
Before Law's countershock or Gamma Kinfe, Luffy held his own against Joker until Law interfered.
After Law's Gamma Knife failure, Luffy still held his own as he previously did.
SO, what exactly is Law being credited for if he still couldn't dominate Joker with Gear 2nd?
If Luffy defeated Joker just with Gear 2 AFTER the Gamma Knife + Counter Shock, one could entertain the possibility that his attacks were instrumental in Luffy's victory over Joker.
However, Luffy still needed Gear 4th because Gear 2nd wasn't getting him anywhere, so Law really wasn't that instrumental in Joker's defeat.
The main thing Law did:
Was buy Luffy enough time by taking out Trebol to keep it 1 v 1 against Joiker.
and Law also wasn't the only one who bought Luffy time to level the playing field.
Had Joker not been running away from Gear 4th the entire time, Luffy would have defeated him because that Leo Bazooka pretty much incapacitated Joker; Had Luffy been able to land his King Kong fun, Joker would have been defeated there and then.
Joker was of course smart and let Luffy run out of haki before counter attacking, but that is not a head-on tactic which can be described to be pretty cowardly and evident that Luffy's Gear 4 power was simply overwhelming.
So, both had their advantages that they couldn't take, but in the end, the result showed that Luffy was indeed superior to Joker.
Luffy holding his own before law appeared is irrelevant to my point. One way or the other the situation is that law caused actual damage which had a lasting effect on doflamingo. The alternative to that is the asinine idea that doflamingo fought with his insides held together via strings and it did not have any effect on him. And it's not that "If Luffy defeated Joker just with Gear 2 AFTER the Gamma Knife + Counter Shock, one could entertain the possibility that his attacks were instrumental in Luffy's victory over Joker.". Can you imagine how luffy would have done against doflamingo if he were not dealing with his insides being cut up? Doflamingo did not heal himself, he merely forced his organs together with stitches. Doflamingo was able to survive through all of that through his strength alone. There is no way the attacks he took from law beforehand did not have a significant effect. That is the actual extent of doflamingo's power, he was able to continue fighting even after law's insanely powerful attacks and then even after taking a solid pounding from luffy. Take away all the help luffy had against doflamingo and he would have lost every bit as miserably as law did on his own as well. Even with gear 4.
I don't recall doflamingo every running from luffy even in gear 4 though. Doflamingo was far away from luffy because luffy punched him that far away. Sure, the distance safe doflamingo but it is also a distance luffy created to begin with.
Luffy holding his own before law appeared is irrelevant to my point. One way or the other the situation is that law caused actual damage which had a lasting effect on doflamingo. The alternative to that is the asinine idea that doflamingo fought with his insides held together via strings and it did not have any effect on him. And it's not that "If Luffy defeated Joker just with Gear 2 AFTER the Gamma Knife + Counter Shock, one could entertain the possibility that his attacks were instrumental in Luffy's victory over Joker.". Can you imagine how luffy would have done against doflamingo if he were not dealing with his insides being cut up? Doflamingo did not heal himself, he merely forced his organs together with stitches. Doflamingo was able to survive through all of that through his strength alone. There is no way the attacks he took from law beforehand did not have a significant effect. That is the actual extent of doflamingo's power, he was able to continue fighting even after law's insanely powerful attacks and then even after taking a solid pounding from luffy. Take away all the help luffy had against doflamingo and he would have lost every bit as miserably as law did on his own as well. Even with gear 4.
I don't recall doflamingo every running from luffy even in gear 4 though. Doflamingo was far away from luffy because luffy punched him that far away. Sure, the distance safe doflamingo but it is also a distance luffy created to begin with.
Running away might be an exaggeration, but Joker didn't want to fight Luffy at close combat distance which is why he was using the same attacks repetitively in order to keep Luffy away.
Sorry, that's an absolutely preposterous statement about Luffy's performance prior to Law's interfrence being irrelevant, if anything is asinine, it's that premise.
It's like advicing someone who is already doing great at an event, and saying it's the said advice that resulted in their success when he/she was doing fine before the advice.
Or attributing a runner's success to trainers when he runs the first 90m/100m in 9 seconds with or without trainers.
Law didn't make that big a difference. How is it that Luffy holding his own before Law's interference makes Law accredited for anything? Luffy didn't need Law at all.
Joker's ability pretty much rendered Law's Gamma Knife irrelevant, it's not like he's holding his organs together with his strings or his insides would be out of place now that he's in Kairoseki which means his ability is ineffective.
Luffy could fight with DD equally with his gear 2nd. The fight got interrupted all the time so we could not really see a long fight but only a few hits. Luffy was forced to use his gear 4th because time was running out. We could see that Ace, Jinbei, Akainu, Aokiji and Jack could fight for many number of days just because they are strong. So we can also include DD in this category. If luffy used gear 2nd then it will take a long time to inflict huge amounts of damage to DD, so the fight could have went for a day or two. DD's statement of luffy's gear 2nd not doing much indicates is that it would not be enough to take him down in 1 hour not it does nothing to him which is a complete bluff since red hawk made him cough up blood and DD had to dodge Hawk gattling gun and eagle bazooka.
So imo Luffy could have fought with DD in his gear 2nd for a long time which does not deplete his haki as quickly as gear 4 does. Also when DD used awakening I believe it is stronger than gear 2nd so only gear 4th can counter that.
Running away might be an exaggeration, but Joker didn't want to fight Luffy at close combat distance which is why he was using the same attacks repetitively in order to keep Luffy away.
Sorry, that's an absolutely preposterous statement about Luffy's performance prior to Law's interfrence being irrelevant, if anything is asinine, it's that premise.
It's like advicing someone who is already doing great at an event, and saying it's the said advice that resulted in their success when he/she was doing fine before the advice.
Or attributing a runner's success to trainers when he runs 100m in 10 seconds with or without trainers.
Law didn't make that big a difference. How is it that Luffy holding his own before Law's interference makes Law accredited for anything? Luffy didn't need Law at all.
Joker's ability pretty much rendered Law's Gamma Knife irrelevant, it's not like he's holding his organs together with his strings or his insides would be out of place now that he's in Kairoseki which means his ability is ineffective.
Most of doflamingo's attacks are ranged, I don't think what he did with the awakening of his fruit suggests much in regards to doflamingo wanting to avoid confronting luffy. The manga never really says or alludes to such a thing.
But... luffy wasn't really doing all that great. The only hit he landed before law used his gamma knife was when law helped luffy land the redhawk punch. Other than that luffy basically got brushed away by doflamingo to fight bellamy. When luffy did get back his gear 2 and 3 proved to be utterly useless. As in, his gear 2 literally connected with doflamingo and doflamingo barely felt it at all. And gear 3 was easily blocked with doflamingo's strings or otherwise easily avoided. Luffy only really did anything to doflamingo once he used gear 4 and started punching him around. And I don't see how the damage doflamingo had taken up to that point could be anything less than considerable.
Personally I do think law's help was necessarily. Doflamingo is by far the strongest enemy luffy has fought up to this point. His power was so insane that gear 2 luffy was not strong enough to do any damage and gear 3 was not fast enough to land a hit. He fought law and had a relatively easy victory over him. It was in subsequent fights where law was lucky to catch him off guard. Law basically chipped away at doflamingo's monstrous strength and the end result was luffy having a chance.
No I can't see it that way.While Gear 2 didn't hit hard enough and Gear 3 was too slow, Gear 4 alleviated both problems.Luffy didn't catch Doflamingo off guard, in Gear 4 he was simply faster than Doflamingo, period.
As seen here:
While in flight mode we see Luffy disappearing, similar to the Soru technique. He also has it in Gear 2. He was too fast for Doflamingo.
And again here:
DD tried to get behind Luffy and attack him from the side, but the python ended up founding him anyway.
DD's movements weren't sluggish after Gamma knife, unlike after he received the Leo Bazooka where he was seen trembling while walking. And more importantly he should be able to predict from where Luffy's attacks were coming thanks to Observation Haki.
There's a difference between saying that Luffy got lucky that he caught DD offguard, where in reality Gear 4 is above everything we've seen from Luffy in terms of speed and strength.
So it's not luck, it's hard work. It certainly the result of Gear 4 .
Surely the wounds law gave doflamingo have not killed other people who have a certain degree of strength but that still does not mean the damage doflamingo took did not contribute to luffy winning in the end. They are wounds that don't kill people and perhaps doflamingo can handle them better than others but even then those are wounds that take away to his strength. I don't think it is possible that there is a wound or damage doflamingo can take and still be at 100%. So you have doflamingo who got stabbed at least once by law (that I recall) and then the gamma knife which slashed his organs. Doflamingo doesn't heal himself, the manga makes that clear, he simply stitches himself up but still needs proper healing. One way or the other this is real damage doflamingo took.
I see it as him continuously stitching himself up.On top of him being resistant. If it weren't for that the Leo Bazooka should have taken him down.He's damn resilient like a cockroach. And it sure isn't that his awakening could do anything against Luffy.
People only think in terms of defense, DD's offense wasn't that great. So without that I fear all he has for him is that incredible defense.His attacks could do something against Law, but Luffy has always been fighting hand to hand, unlike Law who uses the Ope Ope with his sword so he can fight from a distance. Before Luffy activated Gear 4 while he didn't exactly manage to hurt DD, he wasn't getting hurt either, so clearly his defense was good. But the likes of Law were terribly injured, because once again Luffy's experience in hand to hand combat is simply greater, while Law's fighting style is more advantageous for him from a distance. Luffy and DD are both good at hand to hand combat.
And also worth noting, even with all the damage doflamingo took, luffy still didn't win against doflamingo in one go. Luffy needed one more punch to defeat doflamingo in his first use of gear 4 but... he didn't get to land the punch, he ran out of juice. And he needed a solid ten minutes to recover. The only reason luffy won is because his allies protected him. And even that was against a doflamingo whom before that fight had taken damage repeatedly from law. His insides were not healed, they were stitched up. Sure, once luffy recovered he landed the punch he needed to win but that wasn't solely luffy's merit. Luffy won because of his nakama that backed him up, not because of his own strength. Which in context is exactly what the manga as a whole is about. Personally I think that if luffy and doflamingo had a straight fight with both at 100% doflamingo would win with relative ease. He will take a solid pounding when luffy uses gear 4 but then it will run out and doflamingo will kill luffy with ease. Even if luffy does get his second run, he won't be guaranteed a win considering doflamingo will have none of the damage he accumulated through his fight with law. Sure, luffy did take some damage from fighting bellamy however in context it was nowhere near what doflamingo went through.
That is the same issue as Gear 2 and even Gear 3. We saw Luffy in the past suffering the effects of both gears. And yet right now he simply is able to use them without those side effects. For example he doesn't become a midget after Gear 3. And it's not like in those 10 minutes he was perfectly fine.He didn't recover all his strength, in fact we saw him struggling to get up as the time he had was coming to an end.
So he didn't get all of his strength back all of a sudden, he got up while still suffering from exhaustion.And he pushed his limits further by using Gear 4. And these 10 minutes were a chance for both fighters to take a break.After tanking in the Leo Bazooka, DD couldn't walk straight, but he could still use his DF that he used to dispose of the fodder.He didn't engage in combat with someone.
So here's what I think, if it weren't for DD being so damn resistant physically, Luffy would have been able to finish him in one go.You can't take away DD's merits, he has a pretty good defense, the best we've seen at this stage from the characters Luffy fought . His awakening wasn't able to do that much of a damage, the only time it hurt Luffy is when he wasn't in Gear 4. Against Gear 4 it was ineffective.
Law's help wasn't needed and I doubt it's that that allowed Luffy to win. It didn't make Gear 4 more effective, Gear 4 on its own was able to solve the problem Luffy had of his punches not dealing enough damage and being too slow. Gamma knife was used in chapter 781 and in chapter 782 Luffy still was using Gear2.
Gamma knife being used
Chapter 783 Luffy is still using Gear 2 and 3.
If Gamma knife was really that effective, then Gear 2 at that point should have hurt DD. But that is simply not the case.His puches still couldn't hurt DD. Whatever damage he took it simply didn't make him all of a sudden weak.
So in conclusion Gear 4 is what really allowed Luffy to defeat DD. Gamma knife alone isn't what changed things. Luffy has no way of knowing for sure how resistant DD can be, and he learned it the hard way.Those were mere estimations, he can't know for sure if Gamma knife really affected DD.
And Luffy didn't want to waste time and that opportunity to take out DD.So when he realized that his Gear 2 and 3 punches weren't enough he immediately switched to Gear 4 and the damage he did with that is bigger than anything we've seen from him.
So Luffy's strength can be summerized as this, he's strong but not too strong.There's still room for him to grow which he will, as he fights stronger opponents.We can't ignore what we saw from him pre-time skip.While he had a hard time against Crocodile, and lost many rounds, in the end he was able to best him.He realized his weakness and used it to his advantage.Actually right now it feels that Luffy had an easy win against DD, and Oda was simply dragging the fight(last 10 minutes). .Next he fought Enel which as much as I like Crocodile, he's certainly stronger than him. If it weren't for Luffy being rubber and thus immune to lightning he wouldn't have been able to fight him on equal ground. And then there's Lucci which honestly speaking was the most balanced fight Luffy had up till now. And each time we saw Luffy becoming stronger, and making new techniques like Nightmare Luffy which was efficient against Oars. There's plenty of room for him to grow.So imo it's not necessary for him to get help in his fights each time. That help is certainly not confirmed to have been that useful. And it wasn't intended as such anyway.It was just Law getting his shot at killing DD and failing.
And once again I'm seeing a lot of people hyping up Jack for example. I can see DD being stronger than Jack even.We still don't know how those two relate to each other in terms of strength.
Of course Jack looks like he'll also be a tank, as in he can take on hits and not be too affected by it, but I'm not under the impression his offense is that great.It certainly wasn't enough to deal with both Inuarashi and Nekomamushi. So imo it's entirely possible that DD was the strongest fighter Luffy faced in this first part of the NW, and it will be a while before we see Luffy fighting someone stronger, but it's entirely possible he could face someone of equal caliber.It all depends on what Oda has in store for us.
Most of doflamingo's attacks are ranged, I don't think what he did with the awakening of his fruit suggests much in regards to doflamingo wanting to avoid confronting luffy. The manga never really says or alludes to such a thing.
But... luffy wasn't really doing all that great. The only hit he landed before law used his gamma knife was when law helped luffy land the redhawk punch. Other than that luffy basically got brushed away by doflamingo to fight bellamy. When luffy did get back his gear 2 and 3 proved to be utterly useless. As in, his gear 2 literally connected with doflamingo and doflamingo barely felt it at all. And gear 3 was easily blocked with doflamingo's strings or otherwise easily avoided. Luffy only really did anything to doflamingo once he used gear 4 and started punching him around. And I don't see how the damage doflamingo had taken up to that point could be anything less than considerable.
Distraction played so huge a role, it ironically extend over to readers too (bad joke). If we look at the scenes in which big points were scored, they're all attributable to Distraction.
Joker's punches Luffy square in the face
Kyros is unaware that the Joker he decapitated was his clone (Black Knight) - the real Joker is about to decapitate him in return.
Kyros is saved by Luffy while Joker and his Black Knight are in the vicinity.
Luffy attacks the real Joker, but forgets about the Black Knight (clone).
Due to being careless as to not consider the clone (AKA distraction), he gets met with a punch to the face because the clone attacks him from the back.
This was only possible due to distraction, not superiority.
Luffy's Red Hawk on Joker
Law is fighting with Joker's clone (Black Knight).
Luffy is fighting against Bellamy who is being controlled by Joker.
Luffy pretends to be upset at Law for the current situation (obviously devised).
Trebol falls for the hoax plan; Luffy aims his Red Hawk at Law whereby Law switches himself with Joker - and voila, Joker's met with a punch to the gut.
Possible because of a distraction, once again.
Law is dead (apparently), Bellamy is down and Luffy is fighting Joker 1 on 1
No interferance, Luffy is holding his own and no one has the advantage.
Evidently, neither Luffy nor Joker are having the advantage or landing clean hits; it's pretty much even which Law couldn't even achieve in his own duel against Joker, he always on the defence and his offensive attacks were pretty much too easy for Joker to read.
Law's Interupts...Again
Luffy is about to feign another attack, Law uses room.
Law lands an apparently decisive blow to defeat Joker.
The element of DISTRACTION, yet again.
Law is finally out for good
Luffy holds his own against Joker, and both are exchanging and dodging blows just like prior to Law's last interferance.
In retrospect, did Law ever engage Joker on terms that ever made them seem equal? Joker caught Law like a fly, he was not fast enough or strong enough to really be problematic for Joker.
Prior to anything Law did, Joker never once had the upperhand against Luffy except there was a form of distraction in place; so it's pretty clear that Luffy and Joker were relatively even to the other until they both decided to use their trump cards which clearly showed the difference in speed and strength..
I think it is important to establish some points of agreement so we can make some progress in these discussions.
Here are the facts from my perspective:
1. Luffy more or less fought evenly against Doflamingo before he activated Gear Fourth.
2. With the exception of Red Hawk, Luffy's Haki imbued Gear Second punches did not hurt Doflamingo much.
3. While powerful, Luffy's Gear Third techniques were too slow to hit Doflamingo and they were capable of being blocked by Spider Web.
4. Luffy was fast enough to keep up with Doflamingo.
5. At not point was Luffy overwhelmed by Doflamingo while they were fighting at the palace.
6. Luffy would not have won the fight using Gear Second and Third alone.
7. Luffy was already tired, fatigued, and slightly injured (beating from Bellamy) when he activated Gear Fourth.
8. Luffy was much stronger and faster than Doflamingo while using Gear Fourth.
9. Doflamingo failed to do any damage to Luffy while the latter was using Gear Fourth.
10. Doflamingo was completely overwhelmed and was SECONDS away from he being knocked out.
Okay let's move on. There seems to be two extreme positions people have been taking since that their fight ended. On one hand, some posters have been giving Law far too much credit for his contributions. As a result, the value of Luffy's win has been severely diminished. On the opposite end, there are some posters who are barely giving Law any credit for what he did. I am going to follow the middle path if one exists and avoid these extremes.
I acknowledge the fact that Law's Gamma Knife and previous attacks certainly affected Doflamingo in a very detrimental way. However, I think it is almost impossible to ascertain if his contributions were absolutely necessary for Luffy to beat Doflamingo. This is where people's subjective opinion takes center stage. Personally, I think Luffy can have beat Doflamingo without Law's help but it would be much more difficult. Luffy can keep Gear 4th activated for more than twenty minutes while being fatigued & hurt so I'll take my chances with him when he is at full strength. He can most likely utilize Gear 4th for a much longer period of time, so I think he could easily deal enough damage to Doflamingo before the technique expires.
No I can't see it that way.While Gear 2 didn't hit hard enough and Gear 3 was too slow, Gear 4 alleviated both problems.Luffy didn't catch Doflamingo off guard, in Gear 4 he was simply faster than Doflamingo, period.
As seen here:
While in flight mode we see Luffy disappearing, similar to the Soru technique. He also has it in Gear 2. He was too fast for Doflamingo.
And again here:
DD tried to get behind Luffy and attack him from the side, but the python ended up founding him anyway.
DD's movements weren't sluggish after Gamma knife, unlike after he received the Leo Bazooka where he was seen trembling while walking. And more importantly he should be able to predict from where Luffy's attacks were coming thanks to Observation Haki.
There's a difference between saying that Luffy got lucky that he caught DD offguard, where in reality Gear 4 is above everything we've seen from Luffy in terms of speed and strength.
So it's not luck, it's hard work. It certainly the result of Gear 4 .
I see it as him continuously stitching himself up.On top of him being resistant. If it weren't for that the Leo Bazooka should have taken him down.He's damn resilient like a cockroach. And it sure isn't that his awakening could do anything against Luffy.
People only think in terms of defense, DD's offense wasn't that great. So without that I fear all he has for him is that incredible defense.His attacks could do something against Law, but Luffy has always been fighting hand to hand, unlike Law who uses the Ope Ope with his sword so he can fight from a distance. Before Luffy activated Gear 4 while he didn't exactly manage to hurt DD, he wasn't getting hurt either, so clearly his defense was good. But the likes of Law were terribly injured, because once again Luffy's experience in hand to hand combat is simply greater, while Law's fighting style is more advantageous for him from a distance. Luffy and DD are both good at hand to hand combat.
That is the same issue as Gear 2 and even Gear 3. We saw Luffy in the past suffering the effects of both gears. And yet right now he simply is able to use them without those side effects. For example he doesn't become a midget after Gear 3. And it's not like in those 10 minutes he was perfectly fine.He didn't recover all his strength, in fact we saw him struggling to get up as the time he had was coming to an end.
So he didn't get all of his strength back all of a sudden, he got up while still suffering from exhaustion.And he pushed his limits further by using Gear 4. And these 10 minutes were a chance for both fighters to take a break.After tanking in the Leo Bazooka, DD couldn't walk straight, but he could still use his DF that he used to dispose of the fodder.He didn't engage in combat with someone.
So here's what I think, if it weren't for DD being so damn resistant physically, Luffy would have been able to finish him in one go.You can't take away DD's merits, he has a pretty good defense, the best we've seen at this stage from the characters Luffy fought . His awakening wasn't able to do that much of a damage, the only time it hurt Luffy is when he wasn't in Gear 4. Against Gear 4 it was ineffective.
Law's help wasn't needed and I doubt it's that that allowed Luffy to win. It didn't make Gear 4 more effective, Gear 4 on its own was able to solve the problem Luffy had of his punches not dealing enough damage and being too slow. Gamma knife was used in chapter 781 and in chapter 782 Luffy still was using Gear2.
Gamma knife being used
Chapter 783 Luffy is still using Gear 2 and 3.
If Gamma knife was really that effective, then Gear 2 at that point should have hurt DD. But that is simply not the case.His puches still couldn't hurt DD. Whatever damage he took it simply didn't make him all of a sudden weak.
So in conclusion Gear 4 is what really allowed Luffy to defeat DD. Gamma knife alone isn't what changed things. Luffy has no way of knowing for sure how resistant DD can be, and he learned it the hard way.Those were mere estimations, he can't know for sure if Gamma knife really affected DD.
And Luffy didn't want to waste time and that opportunity to take out DD.So when he realized that his Gear 2 and 3 punches weren't enough he immediately switched to Gear 4 and the damage he did with that is bigger than anything we've seen from him.
So Luffy's strength can be summerized as this, he's strong but not too strong.There's still room for him to grow which he will, as he fights stronger opponents.We can't ignore what we saw from him pre-time skip.While he had a hard time against Crocodile, and lost many rounds, in the end he was able to best him.He realized his weakness and used it to his advantage.Actually right now it feels that Luffy had an easy win against DD, and Oda was simply dragging the fight(last 10 minutes). .Next he fought Enel which as much as I like Crocodile, he's certainly stronger than him. If it weren't for Luffy being rubber and thus immune to lightning he wouldn't have been able to fight him on equal ground. And then there's Lucci which honestly speaking was the most balanced fight Luffy had up till now. And each time we saw Luffy becoming stronger, and making new techniques like Nightmare Luffy which was efficient against Oars. There's plenty of room for him to grow.So imo it's not necessary for him to get help in his fights each time. That help is certainly not confirmed to have been that useful. And it wasn't intended as such anyway.It was just Law getting his shot at killing DD and failing.
And once again I'm seeing a lot of people hyping up Jack for example. I can see DD being stronger than Jack even.We still don't know how those two relate to each other in terms of strength.
Of course Jack looks like he'll also be a tank, as in he can take on hits and not be too affected by it, but I'm not under the impression his offense is that great.It certainly wasn't enough to deal with both Inuarashi and Nekomamushi. So imo it's entirely possible that DD was the strongest fighter Luffy faced in this first part of the NW, and it will be a while before we see Luffy fighting someone stronger, but it's entirely possible he could face someone of equal caliber.It all depends on what Oda has in store for us.
I don't disagree with you about gear 4. Yes, it does make luffy temporarily stronger than doflamingo. However it is simply not enough to beat doflamingo on its own. Ok, lets make the case that doflamingo's movements did not slow down from having his organs sliced clean by law. However it was still a damaging attack, it at the very least took away from his stamina. And it being only that is by itself quite optimistic. His organs were stitched but at large still cut, I can't imagine that not causing excruciating pain (which in context doflamingo would have pulled through through sheer willpower as people of his power do when seriously wounded).
As for the bold part, I think that is a wrong interpretation of the situation. Gamma knife was effective. We saw it connect, we saw it have it's intended effect. So why did doflamingo continue fighting? Simply because doflamingo is that stupidly strong compare to luffy and/or law. His strength was so immense compared to either that even taking that much damage he managed to continue fighting as we saw. Gear 4 has an insane amount of merit here... But if we think of the fight against doflamingo as a battle of attrition... The punch with which luffy defeated doflamingo was literally the last punch luffy could throw. So if by whatever chance doflamingo had continued after taking, it would have been the end for luffy. How does having his organs slashed not count into this? Luffy with gear 4 is only momentarily stronger than doflamingo. It's not like his other gears which he can sustain and use as he pleases. His gear 4 situation is actually worst than his gear 2/3 situation before the timeskip, luffy is literally unable to move after it. And the manga conclusively shows that luffy simply does not last long enough to beat doflamingo on his own. Whatever strength law managed to chip away from doflamingo, however small one might think it is, was insanely relevant here.
---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------
Distraction played so huge a role, it ironically extend over to readers too (bad joke). If we look at the scenes in which big points were scored, they're all attributable to Distraction.
Joker's punches Luffy square in the face
Kyros is unaware that the Joker he decapitated was his clone (Black Knight) - the real Joker is about to decapitate him in return.
Kyros is saved by Luffy while Joker and his Black Knight are in the vicinity.
Luffy attacks the real Joker, but forgets about the Black Knight (clone).
Due to being careless as to not consider the clone (AKA distraction), he gets met with a punch to the face because the clone attacks him from the back.
This was only possible due to distraction, not superiority.
Luffy's Red Hawk on Joker
Law is fighting with Joker's clone (Black Knight).
Luffy is fighting against Bellamy who is being controlled by Joker.
Luffy pretends to be upset at Law for the current situation (obviously devised).
Trebol falls for the hoax plan; Luffy aims his Red Hawk at Law whereby Law switches himself with Joker - and voila, Joker's met with a punch to the gut.
Possible because of a distraction, once again.
Law is dead (apparently), Bellamy is down and Luffy is fighting Joker 1 on 1
No interferance, Luffy is holding his own and no one has the advantage.
Evidently, neither Luffy nor Joker are having the advantage or landing clean hits; it's pretty much even which Law couldn't even achieve in his own duel against Joker, he always on the defence and his offensive attacks were pretty much too easy for Joker to read.
Law's Interupts...Again
Luffy is about to feign another attack, Law uses room.
Law lands an apparently decisive blow to defeat Joker.
The element of DISTRACTION, yet again.
Law is finally out for good
Luffy holds his own against Joker, and both are exchanging and dodging blows just like prior to Law's last interferance.
In retrospect, did Law ever engage Joker on terms that ever made them seem equal? Joker caught Law like a fly, he was not fast enough or strong enough to really be problematic for Joker.
Prior to anything Law did, Joker never once had the upperhand against Luffy except there was a form of distraction in place; so it's pretty clear that Luffy and Joker were relatively even to the other until they both decided to use their trump cards which clearly showed the difference in speed and strength..
The deception thing does not make much of a difference IMO. doflamingo got a few hits through tricks but so what? He managed to consistently do that through his fight with decent results at least. He used legitimate techniques on his own, those hits are his own merits. ANd even then, most of the hits which doflamingo took before luffy used gear 4 include some form of deception.
This shows how luffy actually fares against doflamingo without gear 4. Luffy literally connected with gear two and doflamingo literally laugh it off. Luffy was nowhere near fast enough to even vaguely approach doflamingo with gear 3. Before gear 4 luffy only barely managed to hit doflamingo at all and the implication is that even if he had hit the damage would have been just about nonexistent. Maybe gear 3 would have caused some damage because it does hit harder than gear two but unfortunately there is no manga instance of that happening.
The deception thing does not make much of a difference IMO. doflamingo got a few hits through tricks but so what? He managed to consistently do that through his fight with decent results at least. He used legitimate techniques on his own, those hits are his own merits. ANd even then, most of the hits which doflamingo took before luffy used gear 4 include some form of deception.
This shows how luffy actually fares against doflamingo without gear 4. Luffy literally connected with gear two and doflamingo literally laugh it off. Luffy was nowhere near fast enough to even vaguely approach doflamingo with gear 3. Before gear 4 luffy only barely managed to hit doflamingo at all and the implication is that even if he had hit the damage would have been just about nonexistent. Maybe gear 3 would have caused some damage because it does hit harder than gear two but unfortunately there is no manga instance of that happening.
You make it seem like Joker was laughing off every attack which is clearly not the case. Just because he laughed off 1 attack doesn't mean all his attacks were insignificant. Joker landed attacks on Luffy too, Joker too wasn't able to change the flow of the battle in his favour, so that says a lot about how strong Luffy is in Gear 2nd.
Just because Joker laughed off an attack doesn't mean it didn't do him any damage; an eagle Bazooka attack is significantly stronger than a kick imbued with haki, yet Joker shrugged it off whilst spewing blood against a mere kick.
Looking at the context of that attack, this attack that you're somewhat downplaying, Joker was in the air when it landed; whose to say that didn't help to disperse or dissipate some of the damage?
If Luffy was so weak in his Gear 2nd form, why didn't Joker get his way when he wanted to smash Law's head? His only opponent was Luffy, yet he couldn't get Luffy to budge or even overpower him.
Whehter or not he couldn't approach Joker with Gear 3 isn't the case here, did Joker catch Luffy with his White wall? No, so I'm not sure why you're being biased towards Joker when he didn't make much advancements either which pretty much shows they were even besides where there were distractions in place.
I don't disagree with you about gear 4. Yes, it does make luffy temporarily stronger than doflamingo. However it is simply not enough to beat doflamingo on its own. Ok, lets make the case that doflamingo's movements did not slow down from having his organs sliced clean by law. However it was still a damaging attack, it at the very least took away from his stamina. And it being only that is by itself quite optimistic. His organs were stitched but at large still cut, I can't imagine that not causing excruciating pain (which in context doflamingo would have pulled through through sheer willpower as people of his power do when seriously wounded).
As for the bold part, I think that is a wrong interpretation of the situation. Gamma knife was effective. We saw it connect, we saw it have it's intended effect. So why did doflamingo continue fighting? Simply because doflamingo is that stupidly strong compare to luffy and/or law. His strength was so immense compared to either that even taking that much damage he managed to continue fighting as we saw. Gear 4 has an insane amount of merit here... But if we think of the fight against doflamingo as a battle of attrition... The punch with which luffy defeated doflamingo was literally the last punch luffy could throw. So if by whatever chance doflamingo had continued after taking, it would have been the end for luffy. How does having his organs slashed not count into this? Luffy with gear 4 is only momentarily stronger than doflamingo. It's not like his other gears which he can sustain and use as he pleases. His gear 4 situation is actually worst than his gear 2/3 situation before the timeskip, luffy is literally unable to move after it. And the manga conclusively shows that luffy simply does not last long enough to beat doflamingo on his own. Whatever strength law managed to chip away from doflamingo, however small one might think it is, was insanely relevant here.
---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------
The deception thing does not make much of a difference IMO. doflamingo got a few hits through tricks but so what? He managed to consistently do that through his fight with decent results at least. He used legitimate techniques on his own, those hits are his own merits. ANd even then, most of the hits which doflamingo took before luffy used gear 4 include some form of deception.
This shows how luffy actually fares against doflamingo without gear 4. Luffy literally connected with gear two and doflamingo literally laugh it off. Luffy was nowhere near fast enough to even vaguely approach doflamingo with gear 3. Before gear 4 luffy only barely managed to hit doflamingo at all and the implication is that even if he had hit the damage would have been just about nonexistent. Maybe gear 3 would have caused some damage because it does hit harder than gear two but unfortunately there is no manga instance of that happening.
The fact that is that Gamma knife wasn't a game changer. Right after DD took it, he stitched himself up and continued fighting.Not once have we seen him in real pain, other when he was taking on Luffy's punches.If indeed Gamma knife had a huge impact on him, it should be reflected on him.He should have been breathless, sweating even puking blood.Because that's what happens to people who have their organs touched. The fact is it didn't get reflected on his body, again his movements weren't sluggish etc.So how are we supposed to know if it really affected him? If he could still fight then it prolly didn't affect him to the point that he's become too weak. In fact there will always be a doubt about whether it affected him as much as you say.
Gamma knife simply made it that both DD and Luffy didn't come in fresh to their fight. So we could say it made them on a more equal footing.Luffy stood there like an idiot taking in Bellamy's punches, instead of finishing him up nice and clean in one punch.He then took a few hits from DD, before Law used Gamma knife.Before that DD was simply more fresh than Luffy.So Oda took that decision which frankly I can't agree with, because it left a huge doubt about whether Luffy won on his own, or because of Law's interference.Which is why I'm against such interferences in the first place, it doesn't give us a clear idea about the fighters power levels.It certainly wasn't a clean fight.
On the other hand Gear 4 is the game changer, since Luffy went from not hurting DD at all to actually hurting him.If King Kong Gun wasn't enough the first time, then he'll simply use another one, before he runs out of time. I doubt DD would survive that.
So in conclusion it can't be that Gamma knife is the game changer, it certainly didn't affect DD to the point he can't fight.Gear 4's shortcomings doesn't prove that Luffy is weaker than DD. He was already prepared for that eventuality, and it looks like King Kong Gun is Luffy's strongest punch, and Gear 4 is his strongest technique at this point.And if Luffy was able to defeat DD thanks to it, then doesn't that mean that Luffy indeed was stronger than DD while using it? Even if it's temporary?
The fact is Luffy came up with that technique so him being able to use it simply means that he became strong enough to use it. And right now it looks limited in time but I'm willing to bet that by the end of this half of the manga Luffy would have mastered it, and will use it for as long as it is necessary, without suffering its side effects just like he did with Gear 2 and 3 back in the day.
oh my where should i start...
OK
1. Doflamingo's stitches were only temporary, he was still very much (and very badly) injured from the gamma knife followed by a stamp in the gut by luffy, not to mention a red hawk from point blank.All he really did was stop himself from dying. He even acknowleged this.
2.Regardless of what may be said here, One undisputable fact is that doflamingo already survived a wave of gear 4th, and for those who say luffy wasnt at 100%, id dare say that doflamingo has had way more concessions, in parasiting half the country, using the indestructable birdcage, the earlier mentioned injuries, and his fight with law overall (as insignificant as some of you might feel it is) i find it hard to justify a 10 minute rest during a fight, especially since luffy's weakness is stamina.
3.the point made by @ladylola that we havent seen him showing signs of pain is almost irrelevant, Whitebeard shrugged off being burned inside out in the chest from magma, he shrugged it out and moved on, it doesnt mean he still wasn't suffering from it. Its not rare to see fighters hiding pain during a fight. and doflamingo's personality simply insists that he maintains his intimidating stance. it was obvious during the ten minutes that doflamingo was also running out of energy, and had become much slower than before, other wise he would have instantly killed all the townsfolk, so that point is almost irrelevant.
Now there are claims that the birdcage doesn't take any energy, which is based on the fact that the manga didnt state either
i have made the point that when DF uses come into contact with seastone, they not only lose thier DF ability but also their strength.
we have also noticed that people who are strong before eating a devil fruit end up having DF powers which reflect their strength without it. e.g Kaku(CP9) and Sabo. This is not to say that a DF cant be trained specifically, but there seems to be some paralell with life energy (ie stamina) and df abilities and how powerful they are.
thus it would be illogical to think that while the strings used in combat are easily repelled, the birdcage that issho and zoro combined (with dozens of gladiators and thousands of commoners) could only stop for a second, unless there is now some type of double standard. im not saying that it should drain him, but it is only a last resort for him. which implies some drawback, and his confidence in using it stems from his posession of Mansherrie, which was why losing mansherrie was one of the worst things that could happen to him. and he openly expressed that.
im pretty sure oda's theme in the battle was that everyone in the country got involved to take him down, without saying how a primed doflamingo would easily outlast a gear 4th (which isnt at all "luffy's real strength, but a temporary, life shortening, stamina draining move),its quite obvious in the manga that luffy would have lost without any help, and putting out a primed doflamingo would only worsen matters, simply put:
Doflamingo is still superior, and i would dare say far superior, since luffy has to sacrifice so much just to make it a close battle with a handicapped DD.
im really anxious to hear to refutations.
oh my where should i start...
OK
1. Doflamingo's stitches were only temporary, he was still very much (and very badly) injured from the gamma knife followed by a stamp in the gut by luffy, not to mention a red hawk from point blank.All he really did was stop himself from dying. He even acknowleged this.
2.Regardless of what may be said here, One undisputable fact is that doflamingo already survived a wave of gear 4th, and for those who say luffy wasnt at 100%, id dare say that doflamingo has had way more concessions, in parasiting half the country, using the indestructable birdcage, the earlier mentioned injuries, and his fight with law overall (as insignificant as some of you might feel it is) i find it hard to justify a 10 minute rest during a fight, especially since luffy's weakness is stamina.
3.the point made by @ladylola that we havent seen him showing signs of pain is almost irrelevant, Whitebeard shrugged off being burned inside out in the chest from magma, he shrugged it out and moved on, it doesnt mean he still wasn't suffering from it. Its not rare to see fighters hiding pain during a fight. and doflamingo's personality simply insists that he maintains his intimidating stance. it was obvious during the ten minutes that doflamingo was also running out of energy, and had become much slower than before, other wise he would have instantly killed all the townsfolk, so that point is almost irrelevant.
Now there are claims that the birdcage doesn't take any energy, which is based on the fact that the manga didnt state either
i have made the point that when DF uses come into contact with seastone, they not only lose thier DF ability but also their strength.
we have also noticed that people who are strong before eating a devil fruit end up having DF powers which reflect their strength without it. e.g Kaku(CP9) and Sabo. This is not to say that a DF cant be trained specifically, but there seems to be some paralell with life energy (ie stamina) and df abilities and how powerful they are.
thus it would be illogical to think that while the strings used in combat are easily repelled, the birdcage that issho and zoro combined (with dozens of gladiators and thousands of commoners) could only stop for a second, unless there is now some type of double standard. im not saying that it should drain him, but it is only a last resort for him. which implies some drawback, and his confidence in using it stems from his posession of Mansherrie, which was why losing mansherrie was one of the worst things that could happen to him. and he openly expressed that.
im pretty sure oda's theme in the battle was that everyone in the country got involved to take him down, without saying how a primed doflamingo would easily outlast a gear 4th (which isnt at all "luffy's real strength, but a temporary, life shortening, stamina draining move),its quite obvious in the manga that luffy would have lost without any help, and putting out a primed doflamingo would only worsen matters, simply put:
Doflamingo is still superior, and i would dare say far superior, since luffy has to sacrifice so much just to make it a close battle with a handicapped DD.
im really anxious to hear to refutations.
Thing is if DD was hurt by Gamma Knife, his internal organs should have been out of place and loose once he was chained in Kairoseki because his strings would have disappeared; being as that wasn't the case, Gamma Knife was short lived and rendered obsolete with Joker's initial first aid.
Sugar had 100s of thousands if not millions turned into toys, yet it didn't require her to use stamina to keep peopole as toys; If Birdcage did take Joker's energy, why didn't the Birdcage get weaker as he progressively got weakened through-out the fight? It only disappeared once he was unconscious exactly like Sugar which implies Birdcage has nothing to do with stamina, but consciousness.
Joker also said he didn't need stamina to take on fodder, and what do we see him doing next? We see him simply using his strings to fight off the masses while he was limping. If his abilities drained his stamina, then he should have been progressively getting tired using his abilities and that was never the case.
Law's contribution was not that significant.
Ultimately, if Law's Gamma knife + Counter Shock changed the game, then Luffy should have had an easier time fighting Joker in Gear 2 than he did earlier, and that was never the case either.
Ladylola, firstly I have never told you to stop posting opinion so I don't know why you feel the matter to be acerbic in the end
Plus, this is not first time we are exchanging views.
You wrote "Luffy is strong but not too strong", off course Luffy has trained for 2 years and co and has to show some development. However the opponents he is after DD, sooner or later Jack and Kaido are older and have fought numerous of time.
Luffy has improved in strength but Law and other people help him out in taking down DD.
Sabo and other keep saying he needs his crew to look after him because of his lack of plan and naivety.
He is bold, go-getter but he is still lacking experience.
Also, Luffy needs to beat strong opponents for the plot but Oda has used multiple characters and events to not make Luffy seen as complete as DD.
Again, the reason why Luffy is able to take down those guys is in his ability to involve people in his fight (how much he cares for his teammates, his alliance, ex ennemies..) . Comparing to DD or Crocro and others, they are far too self-centred on their own strength to make the difference.
That's simple, this is not a rhethoric statement, it's factual.
Ladylola, firstly I have never told you to stop posting opinion so I don't know why you feel the matter to be acerbic in the end
Plus, this is not first time we are exchanging views.
You wrote "Luffy is strong but not too strong", off course Luffy has trained for 2 years and co and has to show some development. However the opponents he is after DD, sooner or later Jack and Kaido are older and have fought numerous of time.
Luffy has improved in strength but Law and other people help him out in taking down DD.
Sabo and other keep saying he needs his crew to look after him because of his lack of plan and naivety.
He is bold, go-getter but he is still lacking experience.
Also, Luffy needs to beat strong opponents for the plot but Oda has used multiple characters and events to not make Luffy seen as complete as DD.
Again, the reason why Luffy is able to take down those guys is in his ability to involve people in his fight (how much he cares for his teammates, his alliance, ex ennemies..) . Comparing to DD or Crocro and others, they are far too self-centred on their own strength to make the difference.
That's simple, this is not a rhethoric statement, it's factual.
Hi tony p, thanks for taking the time to share your opinion which is surely not overrated.
Actually it's not factual. If we look at the facts Luffy certainly didn't need some help during his fights, once he got into them.He was never interrupted up till now with Law.
The fact is we simply can't ignore the patterns that we've seen pre-time skip. So Dressrosa could very well be the exception, since the situation was a desperate one.
And desperate times call for desperate measures, so we simply can't expect Luffy to be on all fronts, when something like the birdcage is threatening everyone.
So him getting "help" makes sense in that regard, but it's not a requirement. What I mean with "he's strong but not too strong "is simply that he can still grow as a fighter.And Luffy is hardly a beginner, just look at the list of people he took down.
I'm simply saying that Luffy can still grow, and that we shouldn't think that him getting interrupted, because that's what is, is something to rejoice over.He can't simply let others fight his battles for him, which getting help can be seen as.
You're free to think that is the right way to do things, but seems to me you're overestimating the importance of such help.As many have explained it might not have been a game changer, since either way Luffy will be the one to take down all those big baddies.
That is what I want to see, preferably all by himself, without someone like Law using Gamma knife.
So looks like we have completely opposite views, so it's not necessary to drag this talk.
PS: And you're giving youself too much credit if you think I'll stop posting my opinion for your sake, or just because it's "overrated".
Luffy is also heavily injure by Bellamy and lost much of his stamina coming up to fight Doflamingo. I think Law's Gamma Knife balance it out pretty ok.
For me it's a bit hard for me to say Gamma Knife was a game changer because Doflamingo's emergency first aid application allowed him to escape death, get right back up, and continue fighting without any sign of decreased mobility. There's no arguing that he was certainly hurt but to what extent was really he affected after stitching his organs back together? Apparently not much.
Hi tony p, thanks for taking the time to share your opinion which is surely not overrated.
Actually it's not factual. If we look at the facts Luffy certainly didn't need some help during his fights, once he got into them.He was never interrupted up till now with Law.
The fact is we simply can't ignore the patterns that we've seen pre-time skip. So Dressrosa could very well be the exception, since the situation was a desperate one.
And desperate times call for desperate measures, so we simply can't expect Luffy to be on all fronts, when something like the birdcage is threatening everyone.
So him getting "help" makes sense in that regard, but it's not a requirement. What I mean with "he's strong but not too strong "is simply that he can still grow as a fighter.And Luffy is hardly a beginner, just look at the list of people he took down.
I'm simply saying that Luffy can still grow, and that we shouldn't think that him getting interrupted, because that's what is, is something to rejoice over.He can't simply let others fight his battles for him, which getting help can be seen as.
You're free to think that is the right way to do things, but seems to me you're overestimating the importance of such help.As many have explained it might not have been a game changer, since either way Luffy will be the one to take down all those big baddies.
That is what I want to see, preferably all by himself, without someone like Law using Gamma knife.
So looks like we have completely opposite views, so it's not necessary to drag this talk.
PS: And you're giving youself too much credit if you think I'll stop posting my opinion for your sake, or just because it's "overrated".
Luffy is the hero of the Manga, so it's obvious he will take down all the vilains.
What I found "overrated" was your view on Luffy's current level vs old experienced big shots. Don't forget Oda said he could keep up writing for another 10 years and it took more than a year to complete Dressrosa.. so many things will happen before seing a mature Luffy
I don't know why you are giving so much importance at "patterns" as it is a fiction.
I am not rejoicing when he is getting help, this is just the script blame Oda ^^
Last but not least, we should prepare ourselves to see more exception and desperate situation, especially with the upcoming Kaido's war.
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