Ah, I always thought that Z was only in a movie? Since he hasn't appeared in the Manga at all? And since the Manga is the main storyline... yeah you get my point, Do you have a link where Oda states whom the 7th shichibukai is? (where he says that it is that certain pirate who cut Z's arm off) If not i'm still gonna go with Enel or someone really strong.
Physically, Luffy was much stronger than Enel; every hit from Luffy that Enel took literally stunned Enel. Enel wasn't used to taking that level of damage.
funny how you say this, but gear 4th is still somehow luffy's strength, and not an extension, so, ill just point to the luffy vs doffy thread and laugh at your double standard.
whats your point, damage/pain threshold is different and independent from physical attack strength, in any scenario, he could have just been shocked at luffy's actual power and was caught off guard.Saying that he was much stronger is a baseless assumption.
Bullshit, and you know this, enel was much faster than luffy, he was however overconfident in his mantra and DF, so when luffy actually hit him, he was caught off guard and thus shocked. Luffy wasn't anywhere near as fast as lightning then, and its debatable if he is even now. luffy hitting him at first was because he didnt know that it would actually hit him, he didnt know that rubber negated his ability. The second time was when luffy's fists rebounded off the walls, and enel got caught in the line of fire, and by time he realized that he was running into a trap, it was too late, the final attack was again because he underestimated the strength of the attack and thought that he could take it head on, the strength of the attack not at all being luffy's strength, but a spring effect with the weight of the gold ball, its simple physics , the power of the attack was due to gravity and the weight of the ball, combined with the spin which gives it extra penetrating power. by that time he had already eveluated luffy's strength and had concluded that his fist isnt enough to defeat him, and while his mantra can predict his opponent moves, enel was apparently very bad at basic physics. and i dare you to find evidence that suggests otherwise.
which would be the case, but haki is involved, so enel's speed and observation haki wins. learn to look at the other factors in the position mate.
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luffy's physical strength isnt anywhere near doffy's, gear4th simply amplified it, not his actual power, regardless, its still an important factor, the differnece is when such things can be taken advantage of, and there were no weaknsesses in enel's mantra.
Much faster?Show a panel where he speed blitzed Luffy.
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And strings isn't Doflamingo's power by that logic, it's not like he was born with strings just like Luffy is not born with a rubbery body. So, what's your point?
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You do know Observation haki is not Armament haki; what good is predicting an attack that's not going to hurt you? Neither Smoker nor Enel would have been capable of harming the other.
Panel not needed, lighting fruit=lightning speed, and luffy cant move that fast. your'e the one who needs to show me luffy moving at lightning speed.
Oh, with doflamingo, the strings dont amplify anything, they are used as weapons, like zorro's swords, luffy's rubber isnt a weapon, it amplifies his physical abilities as it only affects his own body.
evidence? lol i know your gonna show me the ace and smoker fight
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Yet Enel moves at Lightening speed according to you but:
A city full of strings that he can control isn't any different to being able to enhance one's body by being able to stretch. Your argument here is pointless, just biased and hypocritical. You can't blame Luffy for having an ability that empowers him awhen Joker also has an ability that:
So, apparently, you're rationalizing that Enel knows about Armament haki, but didn't use it against Luffy even when he could have imbued it into his weapon, great deduction there; so Enel is somewhat lacking in the mental faculties department, interesting. Satori never had Armament haki, he had only Observation haki; perhaps, you've mistaken a dial for Armament haki.
First off all, i don't have to love luffy to love the manga, the manga isn't titled 'luffy'.
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Just reread the fight, luffy was barely dodging 'some' of the spear attack's , in any scenario, his true speed comes from his lighting related abilities, and it seems while there is lightning speed, it comes from his attacks, although when he turns himself into lightning, he does have that speed, again, most of the fight was underestimation, and just because he can move that fast doesn't mean that he will in every fight, it was never once assumed that during the fight he moved at lightning speed, i simply stated that it is something he should be capable of doing, as the fight doesn't do any justice to enel. Oda himself said that enel would easily get a 500 million bounty. and this was based on his strength alone, and for relative comparison, ACE's bounty was 550 million. and don chinjao earned the 500 million bounty in his prime. luffy's bounty is only recently 500 million. , jinbei still hasn't touched 500 million despite having a new bounty after marine ford, so its a pretty current bounty. ZORRO doesn't have 500 million ( i know that's an unfair comparison, but i'm making a point here).
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Its not that i think its scientifically unsound, there aren't any free electrons in rubber, the inter-molecular forces are too strong, so no current will pass through it, as no displacement can occur, basic science, and i never said anything about class , that's a strawman fallacy.
I said that there is no proof that lighting wouldn't affect smoke, there hasn't been any studies, and from what i know, water is part carbon dioxide, part WATER, and water conducts electricity, so you are rather brazen to speak to me about science, without evidence. Its baseless to infer that other logia's cant affect each other due to not having solid form, i simply pointed to the fact that the ace and smoker fight was specific to fire and smoke, and cant be used to say that logia's cant harm each other, as it was never specifically stated. And if that was the case, i think that it would be mentioned as a general thing, instead of noting how fire specifically wouldn't affect smoke.
Are you saying Birdcage's indestructibility is reflective of Joker's own strength when even an Admiral + entire city could barely hold it back?
Enel can move at light speed, but can't fight at light speed.
You explicitly said...
Really? There needs to be a scientific experiment to conclude that Lightening would affect Smoke? So, when Lightening strikes and Smoke is produced as a result, does ths Smoke start to burn or disappear or materialize or something? Somewhat of a ridiculous statement to think that Smoke can actually be harmed by electricity or lightening.
Now this is a strawman argument, where did I say Logias can't affect each other? Quote me. IIRC, I said that Akainu could hurt Ace due to the properties of his abilities despite being a Logia, so this is a fallacy on your part.
I dont know what to say, just because someone can move as fast a light, not turn into light or used light based attacks, but just because they have the speed, it makes the DF irrelevant? As if just because oz could stretch his arm by manipulating his shadow, then, luffy,s DF is useless? disregarding everything else of course? i thought so. And if Raleigh can move at light, speed, it doesnt undermine the DF, its SILVERS RAYLEIGH, Rogers right hand man,
No, the argument, and rather the theme of the fight, was that it took all their strength combined to beat doflamingo. this includes luffy. Also, luffy didnt at all stalemate the haki clashes, it was shown that he was inferior, as in gear 2nd he gained speed but was too weak to do him any damage but doflamingo was able to damage luffy.
No what i was saying is that just because enel CAN move at light speed doesn't mean he was during the fight, as he just stopped thinking about using lightning based attacks overall .and moving at lightning speed would require changing himself into lightning. the writer of the manga stated that the fight cant be used to compare characters, stating that if enel was a pirate he would have a bounty of 500 mil
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Again, you are rather brazen to speak to me about anything scientific without evidence.You made the claim that smoke and lighting couldnt harm each other, so me saying the bit about logia's not being able to harm each other is to show that i dont know the premise on which oda would have these two abilities clash, as no study has been done on how lighting affect smoke. Ill quote what i said:
If anything, lightning would have some effect on smoke, but not the other way around. but since i cant be 100% sure how the interaction between these two would be (and you cant either as your explanation is bullshit, lighting doesn't directly cause smoke, and just because it does, doesn't mean it can't have another effect on smoke since smoke starts to rise AFTER the lighting strikes) i simply assume that they can damage each other as a default, at varying degrees, only that enel's use of his ability demonstrates alot more raw power than smoker.So i assume that sincehis mastery of his Df is at a higher degree than smokers and if the default is that if unrelated elements can harm each other (with maybe even a scale) then enel wins.
A Laughable theory, so they don't fight at full strength because they don't want to win, makes a lot of sense.
The premise is just common sense:
Yes, they did.
No the theory is that he didnt fight at full power because he underetimated luffy, as all the other fighter were eliminated with....one electrical attack.
His electrical attacks were, but they didn't affect luffy
For fuck sake, i know i know more about science than you, and yet im the one saying not to get too scientific, since there is no established premise, it could go either way, and since it could, its just best to assume that they can, and the fight would be up to who overpowers the other. With fire and smoke, it's pointless because they are symbiotic as you explained, but Gravity also has no effect on the fire, as fire is composed of heat(no effect from gravity whatsoever) and light (the only way it would affect light is if issho made a black hole, which he didn't make during his fight with sabo) EXPLAIN TO ME USING SCIENCE how gravity had any effect on sabo at all during the clash with issho? as science damn well says otherwise, yet you dare to lecture me about scientific premises, when none was established, and there are situations where established premises for interaction have been laid out, but defied none-the-less. Im just going to call bullshit. i wont be wasting anymore time on this. Enel's mastery of his devil fruit and the sheer range of his power, far surpasses anything smoker could do with his fruit, and was at the time vastly inferior to Enel
So your gonna disregard when luffy's haki proved inferior, like hereYes, they did.
It's not like Luffy got pushed back, he held his ground, so how that isn't a stalemate when Joker didn't even get his way is simply bias or denial; after this CoC stalemate, Luffy got the first hit in.
Is zorro's body as strong as his sword? Its a weapon idiot, and i dont see how it's relevant.
We're not talking about people without DFs, you said that Luffy's body made him stronger than he should be. Joker has a Birdcage and strings that aren't reflective of his strength, so you're either biased or don't understand the manga.
That's because he was in the air, it mitigated the damage. Why is it that Joker was hurt to a mere kick on ground, but not to a Eagle Bazooka in the air?
Yet, you feel that Electricity should affect smoke, sure, okay.
Fire is composed of heat? Heat is a byproduct of fire, not what makes fire. Heck, steam produces heat, does that make it "fire". Don't forget fire is a chemical reaction and they do have some form of mass, so yes, Gravity depending on how powerful could affect it. However, Smoke can't affect Fire and Vice Versa no matter.
How fatuous; no one understimates an Opponent that's proving a challenge for an entire fight.
No, you simply dont understand what im saying. Im saying that gear 4th is a way to give him power that he doesn't have, by increasing the power of his punches with the help of good ole physics, and i said that this is still his power, but because it isnt reflective of his ACTUAL physical ability, being a physical fighter, then doffy exploiting the weakness cant be considered underhanded. which has been your only real point against doflamingo. Doffy's strings isnt reflective of his physical strength, he isnt a purely physical fighter, whats the point, unlike luffy, he leaves no weaknesses in his fighting style by being reckless and his way of fighting turned out to be superior, with luffy needing the country to help stall for 10 mins and all. thus making him superior to luffy...what ive said is 100% coherent with the actual manga, what i said is purely factual...no assumptions were made, doflamingo is superior (you said it yourself that doffy is 'advantaged') So my point stands, where these points have anything to do with enel? i dont know, but i don't mind putting an end to THIS discussion.
So apparently your mistake is that you have ASSUMED that doflamingo was going all out with the first clash of haki. If he takes a few hits, and then laughs it off as 'lacking power' then he's obviously adjusted to luffy's power, and with luffy getting in more hits, you would wonder why gear 4th (a last resort) was needed, if his fists were actually doing anything, but you aren't a good fan of logic. next point.We're not talking about people without DFs, you said that Luffy's body made him stronger than he should be. Joker has a Birdcage and strings that aren't reflective of his strength, so you're either biased or don't understand the manga.
If Gears aren't reflective of Luffy's powers, then neither as his strings.
That's because he was in the air, it mitigated the damage. Why is it that Joker was hurt to a mere kick on ground, but not to a Eagle Bazooka in the air?Fact is Joker wasn't the only one getting hits in, so you're clearly being ignorant in this instance to anything that oppose or makes Joker look equally matched with Luffy.
Also, 2 people do not clash in a match of Haki without someone coming out on top like Luffy vs Chinjao, Garp vs. Chinjao and Zoro vs. Pica if they're not superior, and Joker didn't.
No...it isnt' http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fabrication, if anything, is disingenuous, or dishonest, but it isn't fabrication.
So the logical conclusion was that being in the air mitigated the damage and not that the punches didn't actually do any damage, which is what was stated in the manga? So i guess the manga is wrong and YOU are right. Next!
Not at all what i said, this is a lie. the irony is that you still haven't provided me with any evidence, any research, you gave your thoughts, and brought it forward as fact, you need to prove to me that electricity CANT affect smoke, and you havent, you brought your thoughts and presented them as fact.which i will just laugh at and call bullshit.
Ok, every chemical reaction has 2 parts, energy and mass, now in combustion, the light and heat energy given off is what we call fire....but the actual mass.....(mostly carbon dioxide and water vapour) goes off into what we call SMOKE, since sabo can turn himself into the FLAMES, and not into the carbon compounds themselves which get burned and with the flames themselves having No weight (unless issho made a black hole), the fight should have been massively one sided but it wasn't so the scientific premise was completely ignored for sake of the plot, so you can rant on about science, i really dont care if you do anymore. you wont ever PROVE that lighting wont affect smoke, my point stands (and stands tall).
Go look up the meaning of 'arrogance'.
To be fair, majority of your posts don't have any actual POINTS.
Ironically enough, the same sad story can be made for Joker. He's not as strong as the Birdcage itself, yet he's able to create it. So, his power is as fake as Gear 4th.
The Clash of haki was to prove he was superior and they stalemated. Not an assumption,a fact. If there was a victor in that clash, someone would have lost at that moment like we see against Chinjao and Pica.
This is clearly what you must think since neither Enel or Smoker have Armament haki; your claime is somewhat baseless and unscientific. What makes you think Electricity affects Smoke, you're the one making claims with no research, just doubts based on nothing.
As can be mostly said in your case; mostly biased and lacks substance.
