Discussion Enel and the New World

amidaru312

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I feel like that there would be more than just sky island when it comes to enel, I feel like him and his bizzare devil fruit will come back in the new world, though he's probably one of luffy easiest enemy....

Any thoughts?
 

TheLuffySmile

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I'm hoping that he is the unknown shichibukai.
:enel





:ace
 

TheLuffySmile

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He's not. It's some unknown guy, who cut off Z's arm in the past. It seems he's a veteran of the seas.

http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/435244-(SPOILER)-Volume-Z-7th-Shihibukai
Ah, I always thought that Z was only in a movie? Since he hasn't appeared in the Manga at all? And since the Manga is the main storyline... yeah you get my point, Do you have a link where Oda states whom the 7th shichibukai is? (where he says that it is that certain pirate who cut Z's arm off) If not i'm still gonna go with Enel or someone really strong.
 

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It's from Volume Z that came with the movie. It's all in that thread. It's not really that hard to find, just google volume 0 with shichibukai and several sources will pop out.

As far as I gathered everything in Volume Z is canon, just like Volume 0 was canon too. Events in the movies with Shiki and Zephyr are highly debatable and I doubt anyone in manga is ever going to mention a reference to them.

But since this is about Enel, as far as I'm concerned, he could potentially be one of the strongest people in the world. If he wasn't a psycho. There are some things you just can't beat that easilly. I hope he returns some day. I know he achieved his dream, but perhaps he becomes bored with the Moon.
 

Fuuji Genichiro

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To be fair, the fight between luffy and enel cant be used to say who was stronger at the time, as at that time smoker was stronger than luffy, but smoker would probably have his ass handed to him by enel, it was one of those ultra specific scenario's where luffy winning was somewhat EXTREME luck. Not to mention that enel has been THOROUGHLY trained in 'mantra' to the point of 'mastery', although i suspect that he was referring to his use of perception haki , which allowed him to do a pinpoint accuracy lighting strike at someone miles away because he 'sensed' betrayal . (when that girl was telling luffy that they were walking into a trap) forgive me for saying that thats pretty damn far above luffy's level of perception haki now, and seems to be on the level of issho, the blind admiral. So yeah, i think you guys are undermining him a little because he lost to luffy, luffy beats alot of people who are stronger than him. doesn't mean that they are weaker, its just luffy, and with him having 'the ultimate devil fruit' it would be interesting to see him return. Not to rematch luffy though, luffy would still have a massive advantage, and the fight would be pretty predictable, but maybe we can see him pitted against someone else?
I guess he would lack the motivation since he doesnt give much shits about the world below, but i guess the whole 'i am god' along with some moon people prophecy, might see him come back ,
Hell, here's a theory, the secret (or a clue) to raftel/one piece/all blue? is on the moon and having the 'i am god' persona, he might come back with conquerors haki and wreck shit in...idk, maybe some big name pirate will intercept him, maybe oda will throw him into a movie (thats actually very likely). i personally dont want to see him, as a fight between him and luffy is pointless. but i disagree with any notion that suggests that enel isn't actually an insanely powerful 'GOD', i think he actually could be.
 
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Hannibal Psyche

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To be fair, the fight between luffy and enel cant be used to say who was stronger at the time, as at that time smoker was stronger than luffy, but smoker would probably have his ass handed to him by enel,
Physically, Luffy was much stronger than Enel; every hit from Luffy that Enel took literally stunned Enel. Enel wasn't used to taking that level of damage.

Speedwise, Luffy was equally as fast as Enel; Enel's only advantage was his Observation haki, but that didn't guarantee him victory.

Enel also couldn't defeat Smoker; it's like saying Lightning defeats Clouds or Fire is superior to Smoke, such things wouldn't be able to interact with each other and would stalemate.

And Enel's Observation Haki isn't better than anyone's haki we've seen; his lightening simply amplified its range, not its actual power.
 

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not its actual power.
funny how you say this, but gear 4th is still somehow luffy's strength, and not an extension, so, ill just point to the luffy vs doffy thread and laugh at your double standard.
Physically, Luffy was much stronger than Enel; every hit from Luffy that Enel took literally stunned Enel. Enel wasn't used to taking that level of damage.
whats your point, damage/pain threshold is different and independent from physical attack strength, in any scenario, he could have just been shocked at luffy's actual power and was caught off guard.Saying that he was much stronger is a baseless assumption.
Speedwise, Luffy was equally as fast as Enel.
Bullshit, and you know this, enel was much faster than luffy, he was however overconfident in his mantra and DF, so when luffy actually hit him, he was caught off guard and thus shocked. Luffy wasn't anywhere near as fast as lightning then, and its debatable if he is even now. luffy hitting him at first was because he didnt know that it would actually hit him, he didnt know that rubber negated his ability. The second time was when luffy's fists rebounded off the walls, and enel got caught in the line of fire, and by time he realized that he was running into a trap, it was too late, the final attack was again because he underestimated the strength of the attack and thought that he could take it head on, the strength of the attack not at all being luffy's strength, but a spring effect with the weight of the gold ball, its simple physics , the power of the attack was due to gravity and the weight of the ball, combined with the spin which gives it extra penetrating power. by that time he had already eveluated luffy's strength and had concluded that his fist isnt enough to defeat him, and while his mantra can predict his opponent moves, enel was apparently very bad at basic physics. and i dare you to find evidence that suggests otherwise.
Enel also couldn't defeat Smoker; it's like saying Lightning defeats Clouds or Fire is superior to Smoke, such things wouldn't be able to interact with each other and would stalemate.
which would be the case, but haki is involved, so enel's speed and observation haki wins. learn to look at the other factors in the position mate.
you see these things are like playing chess, you cant just look at the immediate factors, and only concentrate on things that stand out, sometime subtle differences can mark the difference between win and lose.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
And Enel's Observation Haki isn't better than anyone's haki we've seen; his lightening simply amplified its range, not its actual power.
luffy's physical strength isnt anywhere near doffy's, gear4th simply amplified it, not his actual power, regardless, its still an important factor, the differnece is when such things can be taken advantage of, and there were no weaknsesses in enel's mantra.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Bullshit, and you know this, enel was much faster than luffy,
Much faster?Show a panel where he speed blitzed Luffy.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
luffy's physical strength isnt anywhere near doffy's, gear4th simply amplified it,
And strings isn't Doflamingo's power by that logic, it's not like he was born with strings just like Luffy is not born with a rubbery body. So, what's your point?
--- Double Post Merged, ---
which would be the case, but haki is involved, so enel's speed and observation haki wins.
You do know Observation haki is not Armament haki; what good is predicting an attack that's not going to hurt you? Neither Smoker nor Enel would have been capable of harming the other.
 

Fuuji Genichiro

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Much faster?Show a panel where he speed blitzed Luffy.
Panel not needed, lighting fruit=lightning speed, and luffy cant move that fast. your'e the one who needs to show me luffy moving at lightning speed.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
And strings isn't Doflamingo's power by that logic, it's not like he was born with strings just like Luffy is not born with a rubbery body. So, what's your point?
Oh, with doflamingo, the strings dont amplify anything, they are used as weapons, like zorro's swords, luffy's rubber isnt a weapon, it amplifies his physical abilities as it only affects his own body.
You do know Observation haki is not Armament haki; what good is predicting an attack that's not going to hurt you? Neither Smoker nor Enel would have been capable of harming the other.
evidence? lol i know your gonna show me the ace and smoker fight
as far as im concerned, nothing was mentioned of logia's being unable to harm each other, and the statements were rather specific on fire and smoke, since fire and smoke are basically brothers.Id think that ace would simply generalize that logia's cant harm each other, instead of saying that "the battle between fire and smoke is pointless". plus althought it wasnt explicitly stated that he has armament, it wasnt stated that he couldn't, since the priest satori had it, there's no reason to believe that enel wouldn't also at least know about it. So yeah...smoker wins.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
and just as a side note, gear 4th isnt an ability granted by the DF, it's an ability allowed by luffy's df.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Panel not needed, lighting fruit=lightning speed, and luffy cant move that fast. your'e the one who needs to show me luffy moving at lightning speed.
Yet Enel moves at Lightening speed according to you but:
  1. Luffy is able to hit him.
  2. Grab him.
  3. And even punch him with a Golden ball that's weighing him down.
And you're saying Enel is faster than Luffy; hell, even with Mantra, he still wasn't superior. Luffy didn't even have Gear 2nd and he was still capable of hitting Enel.

At one point, Luffy was dodging every attack from Enel, I guess Luffy was moving at lightening speed according to your premise if it's logically consistent.

If Enel was so fast, Luffy should have only been grabbing after images.
Oh, with doflamingo, the strings dont amplify anything, they are used as weapons, like zorro's swords, luffy's rubber isnt a weapon, it amplifies his physical abilities as it only affects his own body.
A city full of strings that he can control isn't any different to being able to enhance one's body by being able to stretch. Your argument here is pointless, just biased and hypocritical. You can't blame Luffy for having an ability that empowers him awhen Joker also has an ability that:
  1. Creates an indestructible cage when he himself isn't indestructible.
  2. Control thousands of people when he only has 2 hands.
  3. Can be a source of first-aid.
  4. It doesn't cost him stamina.
So, your angst against Luffy is a preposterous one being that it's a double standard and clearly hatred for Luffy for some reason, it makes one question why you even read the manga.
evidence? lol i know your gonna show me the ace and smoker fight
as far as im concerned, nothing was mentioned of logia's being unable to harm each other, and the statements were rather specific on fire and smoke, since fire and smoke are basically brothers.Id think that ace would simply generalize that logia's cant harm each other, instead of saying that "the battle between fire and smoke is pointless". plus althought it wasnt explicitly stated that he has armament, it wasnt stated that he couldn't, since the priest satori had it, there's no reason to believe that enel wouldn't also at least know about it. So yeah...smoker wins.
So, apparently, you're rationalizing that Enel knows about Armament haki, but didn't use it against Luffy even when he could have imbued it into his weapon, great deduction there; so Enel is somewhat lacking in the mental faculties department, interesting. Satori never had Armament haki, he had only Observation haki; perhaps, you've mistaken a dial for Armament haki.

It's really not about whether a Logia fruit can harm another Logia fruit, it depends on the relationship between the fruits regardess of type; Enel (Logia) and Luffy's (Paramecia) case should be clearly evident that class of fruit doesn't matter, but the fruit's individual characteristics that determines how an ability would behave against another except you think that it's scientifically unsound for Rubber to insulate Electricity, then I'm just startled now.

I thought you had a scientific background, anyone with even the most basic of scientific backgrounds should know that Smoke and Fire is as futile as Electricity and Smoke, there's no logical reason why Fire and Smoke should be able to compete against the other. You have no proof that Enel has armament haki since no one in SKypiea did, so it's literally a guess with no basis.

Specific things do have some mode of sense behind them you know, just because something is specific doesn't mean it doesn't follow a pattern or a form of logic. Fire should naturally be unable to harm smoke as they're symbiotic to the other, however, Fire and Magma is literally like putting hot mud on fire, it'd douse out the fire because of its somewhat watery consistency and then burn the Fire user as we saw was the case with Ace against Akainu.
 

Fuuji Genichiro

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Ok!
interesting points! :D
A city full of strings that he can control isn't any different to being able to enhance one's body by being able to stretch. Your argument here is pointless, just biased and hypocritical. You can't blame Luffy for having an ability that empowers him awhen Joker also has an ability that:
  1. Creates an indestructible cage when he himself isn't indestructible.
  2. Control thousands of people when he only has 2 hands.
  3. Can be a source of first-aid.
  4. It doesn't cost him stamina.
So, your angst against Luffy is a preposterous one being that it's a double standard and clearly hatred for Luffy for some reason, it makes one question why you even read the manga.
First off all, i don't have to love luffy to love the manga, the manga isn't titled 'luffy'.
Gonna deal with this using basic logic, no assumptions at all.

  1. Luffy has to sacrifice lifespan, and use an abnormal amount of stamina for gear4th yes? Why it is such a sacrifice and a burden to have access to his own natural power. Now think about that question objectively.
  2. No, doffy's ability is a DF just like luffy's , but what you fail to recognize is that the gears aren't directly related to luffy's DF. and gear 4th especially is more of a haki application to his rubber, and using simple physics (like with the golden ball) he uses the rebound effect of the rubber to greatly increase his attack power, with gear 2nd speed.This isn't at all his actual natural physical power, this is just a nice application of physics. Not to undermine it at all, its still his power.
Im not blaming luffy, but you have to understand that such an artificial setup takes extra haki to maintain, so if luffy becomes exposed as a result of that, then when you start looking at the temporary increase, and and then you say that, at that peak moment there was a temporary advantage, and then disregard the rest of the fight and say that luffy is stronger, it sounds like total bullshit. And comments on potential are also bullshit, since he doesn't have that power now.
Anyone can fight like that, putting all their energy into one attack , or one run. but you will burn yourself out before the finish line, and lose the race, doesn't mean your a better sprinter than me because you had a significant lead. its just the dynamic.
So your the only one showing a double standard when you say
And Enel's Observation Haki isn't better than anyone's haki we've seen; his lightening simply amplified its range, not its actual power.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
when amplification was never a problem with gear4th
Yet Enel moves at Lightening speed according to you but:
  1. Luffy is able to hit him.
  2. Grab him.
  3. And even punch him with a Golden ball that's weighing him down.
  1. The weight of the gold ball was the only reason he could hit him, luffy's rubber allows him to act like a spring (the concept of gear 4th in a nutshell) the weight of the ball pulled his arm back and created enough tension to propel the ball back upwards, not to mention he was also falling from the sky, which was extra speed. So basic elasticity.
  2. I explained how luffy hitting him in the first place was arrogance on enel's part, pure underestimation.
  3. yeah, he grabbed him, barely dodged his attack, and then since he was so close already, latched on to his spear. doesn't disprove what im saying.
    And you're saying Enel is faster than Luffy; hell, even with Mantra, he still wasn't superior. Luffy didn't even have Gear 2nd and he was still capable of hitting Enel.
    At one point, Luffy was dodging every attack from Enel, I guess Luffy was moving at lightening speed according to your premise if it's logically consistent.

    If Enel was so fast, Luffy should have only been grabbing after images.
    Just reread the fight, luffy was barely dodging 'some' of the spear attack's , in any scenario, his true speed comes from his lighting related abilities, and it seems while there is lightning speed, it comes from his attacks, although when he turns himself into lightning, he does have that speed, again, most of the fight was underestimation, and just because he can move that fast doesn't mean that he will in every fight, it was never once assumed that during the fight he moved at lightning speed, i simply stated that it is something he should be capable of doing, as the fight doesn't do any justice to enel. Oda himself said that enel would easily get a 500 million bounty. and this was based on his strength alone, and for relative comparison, ACE's bounty was 550 million. and don chinjao earned the 500 million bounty in his prime. luffy's bounty is only recently 500 million. , jinbei still hasn't touched 500 million despite having a new bounty after marine ford, so its a pretty current bounty. ZORRO doesn't have 500 million ( i know that's an unfair comparison, but i'm making a point here).
--- Double Post Merged, ---
So, apparently, you're rationalizing that Enel knows about Armament haki, but didn't use it against Luffy even when he could have imbued it into his weapon, great deduction there; so Enel is somewhat lacking in the mental faculties department, interesting. Satori never had Armament haki, he had only Observation haki; perhaps, you've mistaken a dial for Armament haki. -i concede this one, i forgot that it was the dials, been years-

It's really not about whether a Logia fruit can harm another Logia fruit, it depends on the relationship between the fruits regardess of type; Enel (Logia) and Luffy's (Paramecia) case should be clearly evident that class of fruit doesn't matter, but the fruit's individual characteristics that determines how an ability would behave against another except you think that it's scientifically unsound for Rubber to insulate Electricity, then I'm just startled now.
Its not that i think its scientifically unsound, there aren't any free electrons in rubber, the inter-molecular forces are too strong, so no current will pass through it, as no displacement can occur, basic science, and i never said anything about class , that's a strawman fallacy.

I thought you had a scientific background, anyone with even the most basic of scientific backgrounds should know that Smoke and Fire is as futile as Electricity and Smoke, there's no logical reason why Fire and Smoke should be able to compete against the other. You have no proof that Enel has armament haki since no one in SKypiea did, so it's literally a guess with no basis.

Specific things do have some mode of sense behind them you know, just because something is specific doesn't mean it doesn't follow a pattern or a form of logic. Fire should naturally be unable to harm smoke as they're symbiotic to the other, however, Fire and Magma is literally like putting hot mud on fire, it'd douse out the fire because of its somewhat watery consistency and then burn the Fire user as we saw was the case with Ace against Akainu.
I said that there is no proof that lighting wouldn't affect smoke, there hasn't been any studies, and from what i know, water is part carbon dioxide, part WATER, and water conducts electricity, so you are rather brazen to speak to me about science, without evidence. Its baseless to infer that other logia's cant affect each other due to not having solid form, i simply pointed to the fact that the ace and smoker fight was specific to fire and smoke, and cant be used to say that logia's cant harm each other, as it was never specifically stated. And if that was the case, i think that it would be mentioned as a general thing, instead of noting how fire specifically wouldn't affect smoke.
While things have some mode of sense to them, this IS one piece we are talking about, don't think too scientifically. Even the example you gave was incorrect, as since fire is intangible akainu's magma would simply pass through (he didnt cover his entire body with mamga or anything) , but akainu punching a hole through ace was the power of his haki, which if ace had haki, then akainu's was that much stronger, as haki can be placed in logia type attacks. Im not too quick to assume the basis on which things are done in eichiro oda's manga, especially without prior correlation, much less to use such assumptions as arguments.
 

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  • Luffy has to sacrifice lifespan, and use an abnormal amount of stamina for gear4th yes? Why it is such a sacrifice and a burden to have access to his own natural power. Now think about that question objectively.
  • No, doffy's ability is a DF just like luffy's , but what you fail to recognize is that the gears aren't directly related to luffy's DF. and gear 4th especially is more of a haki application to his rubber, and using simple physics (like with the golden ball) he uses the rebound effect of the rubber to greatly increase his attack power, with gear 2nd speed.This isn't at all his actual natural physical power, this is just a nice application of physics. Not to undermine it at all, its still his power.
Are you saying Birdcage's indestructibility is reflective of Joker's own strength when even an Admiral + entire city could barely hold it back?

According to you since you believe that Birdcage is reflective of Joker's strength, this means that since Luffy stalemated Joker in Haki clashes, it must mean that Luffy's Haki and Strength is superior to:
  1. Fujitora +
  2. Zoro +
  3. Colosseum fighters Strength
put together, since Luffy was able to to negate Joker's advance while they couldn't stop the advance of his Birdcage with their physical strength.

Just reread the fight, luffy was barely dodging 'some' of the spear attack's , in any scenario, his true speed comes from his lighting related abilities, and it seems while there is lightning speed, it comes from his attacks, although when he turns himself into lightning, he does have that speed, again
Enel can move at light speed, but can't fight at light speed.

Barely dodging still suggests that Luffy is as fast at lightening according to you, barely dodging over and over again is not a flukey event; you're essentially saying that Luffy is almost moving at light speed and why isn't Luffy punching or grabbing after images if Enel was so fast?

Even Kizaru doesn't fight at lightspeed, or are you saying Rayleigh moves at light speed? If Rayleigh can move at light speed, it makes the Light DF irrelevant if someone can just go at that speed without it.
Its not that i think its scientifically unsound, there aren't any free electrons in rubber, the inter-molecular forces are too strong, so no current will pass through it, as no displacement can occur, basic science, and i never said anything about class , that's a strawman fallacy.
You explicitly said...
"Id think that ace would simply generalize that logia's cant harm each other, instead of saying that "the battle between fire and smoke is pointless"

Your focus was on the Logia fruits interaction with each other, not on the properties of the fruit itself which implies you didn't see beyond Logia types, so it's not a fallacy, your own very words.

If you realized that it was characteristics of a fruit that determined the interaction and not the classification, you wouldn't say such a thing.
I said that there is no proof that lighting wouldn't affect smoke, there hasn't been any studies,
Really? There needs to be a scientific experiment to conclude that Lightening would affect Smoke? So, when Lightening strikes and Smoke is produced as a result, does ths Smoke start to burn or disappear or materialize or something? Somewhat of a ridiculous statement to think that Smoke can actually be harmed by electricity or lightening.
Its baseless to infer that other logia's cant affect each other due to not having solid form
Now this is a strawman argument, where did I say Logias can't affect each other? Quote me. IIRC, I said that Akainu could hurt Ace due to the properties of his abilities despite being a Logia, so this is a fallacy on your part.
 

Fuuji Genichiro

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Even Kizaru doesn't fight at lightspeed, or are you saying Rayleigh moves at light speed? If Rayleigh can move at light speed, it makes the Light DF irrelevant if someone can just go at that speed without it.
I dont know what to say, just because someone can move as fast a light, not turn into light or used light based attacks, but just because they have the speed, it makes the DF irrelevant? As if just because oz could stretch his arm by manipulating his shadow, then, luffy,s DF is useless? disregarding everything else of course? i thought so. And if Raleigh can move at light, speed, it doesnt undermine the DF, its SILVERS RAYLEIGH, Rogers right hand man,
Are you saying Birdcage's indestructibility is reflective of Joker's own strength when even an Admiral + entire city could barely hold it back?

According to you since you believe that Birdcage is reflective of Joker's strength, this means that since Luffy stalemated Joker in Haki clashes, it must mean that Luffy's Haki and Strength is superior to:
  1. Fujitora +
  2. Zoro +
  3. Colosseum fighters Strength
put together, since Luffy was able to to negate Joker's advance while they couldn't stop the advance of his Birdcage with their physical strength.
No, the argument, and rather the theme of the fight, was that it took all their strength combined to beat doflamingo. this includes luffy. Also, luffy didnt at all stalemate the haki clashes, it was shown that he was inferior, as in gear 2nd he gained speed but was too weak to do him any damage but doflamingo was able to damage luffy.
Enel can move at light speed, but can't fight at light speed.

Barely dodging still suggests that Luffy is as fast at lightening according to you, barely dodging over and over again is not a flukey event; you're essentially saying that Luffy is almost moving at light speed and why isn't Luffy punching or grabbing after images if Enel was so fast?
No what i was saying is that just because enel CAN move at light speed doesn't mean he was during the fight, as he just stopped thinking about using lightning based attacks overall .and moving at lightning speed would require changing himself into lightning. the writer of the manga stated that the fight cant be used to compare characters, stating that if enel was a pirate he would have a bounty of 500 mil
why do you think Oda would say this? my theory is that enel didnt fight full speed or strength, as the hits luffy got in were extremely lucky hits, and luffy wasn't able to dodge all of his attack, there's still a dynamic which hasn't been explored. We didn't really see anything from his final form, all we saw was him sticking a rod in luffy's side. and then gravity and the weight of the ball knocking him out. We dont even know if it knocked him out, as he was seen flying the ark maxim shortly after, and he was knocked out for too long, i think it would have crashed and fell to the blue sea.But no justice ws done to his abilities, unless you wanna go argue with Oda about his manga.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
You explicitly said...
"Id think that ace would simply generalize that logia's cant harm each other, instead of saying that "the battle between fire and smoke is pointless"

Your focus was on the Logia fruits interaction with each other, not on the properties of the fruit itself which implies you didn't see beyond Logia types, so it's not a fallacy, your own very words.

If you realized that it was characteristics of a fruit that determined the interaction and not the classification, you wouldn't say such a thing.
Really? There needs to be a scientific experiment to conclude that Lightening would affect Smoke? So, when Lightening strikes and Smoke is produced as a result, does ths Smoke start to burn or disappear or materialize or something? Somewhat of a ridiculous statement to think that Smoke can actually be harmed by electricity or lightening.
Again, you are rather brazen to speak to me about anything scientific without evidence.You made the claim that smoke and lighting couldnt harm each other, so me saying the bit about logia's not being able to harm each other is to show that i dont know the premise on which oda would have these two abilities clash, as no study has been done on how lighting affect smoke. Ill quote what i said:

I said that there is no proof that lighting wouldn't affect smoke, there hasn't been any studies, and from what i know, water is part carbon dioxide, part WATER, and water conducts electricity, so you are rather brazen to speak to me about science, without evidence. Its baseless to infer that other logia's cant affect each other due to not having solid form, i simply pointed to the fact that the ace and smoker fight was specific to fire and smoke, and cant be used to say that logia's cant harm each other, as it was never specifically stated. And if that was the case, i think that it would be mentioned as a general thing, instead of noting how fire specifically wouldn't affect smoke.
While things have some mode of sense to them, this IS one piece we are talking about, don't think too scientifically. Even the example you gave was incorrect, as since fire is intangible akainu's magma would simply pass through (he didnt cover his entire body with mamga or anything) , but akainu punching a hole through ace was the power of his haki, which if ace had haki, then akainu's was that much stronger, as haki can be placed in logia type attacks. Im not too quick to assume the basis on which things are done in eichiro oda's manga, especially without prior correlation, much less to use such assumptions as arguments.
If anything, lightning would have some effect on smoke, but not the other way around. but since i cant be 100% sure how the interaction between these two would be (and you cant either as your explanation is bullshit, lighting doesn't directly cause smoke, and just because it does, doesn't mean it can't have another effect on smoke since smoke starts to rise AFTER the lighting strikes) i simply assume that they can damage each other as a default, at varying degrees, only that enel's use of his ability demonstrates alot more raw power than smoker.So i assume that sincehis mastery of his Df is at a higher degree than smokers and if the default is that if unrelated elements can harm each other (with maybe even a scale) then enel wins.
 

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No what i was saying is that just because enel CAN move at light speed doesn't mean he was during the fight, as he just stopped thinking about using lightning based attacks overall .and moving at lightning speed would require changing himself into lightning. the writer of the manga stated that the fight cant be used to compare characters, stating that if enel was a pirate he would have a bounty of 500 mil
why do you think Oda would say this? my theory is that enel didnt fight full speed or strength
A Laughable theory, so they don't fight at full strength because they don't want to win, makes a lot of sense.

There's no instance Enel's attacks were moving at lightspeed whilst fighting; if Enel's attacks attacks were anything close to light speed, Luffy would not have been able to hit Enel at all, that's the point.

Also, you seem to not comprehend that Kizaru cannot fight at Lightspeed; if ll his attacks were at lightspeed, then no one would even be able to run, think or react to his attacks.

How long did it even take him to get to Sabaody? Probably longer than it should take for someone capable at moving at the speed of light.

You made the claim that smoke and lighting couldnt harm each other, so me saying the bit about logia's not being able to harm each other is to show that i dont know the premise on which oda would have these two abilities clash, as no study has been done on how lighting affect smoke.
The premise is just common sense:
  1. Rubber and Electricity - Electricity gets insulated by Rubber.
  2. Smoke and Fire - There's really not interaction.
  3. Fire and Lava - Lava being somewhat like liquid quenches Fire.
It really is not Rocket science. the reaction is scientifically consistent; why there needs to be an experiment to show how Lightening would react with Smoke is ridiculous. It's not like Smoke gets nullified because of Lightening, the logic you're applying here is unexisting.

Have you even got any scientific data to even entertain that Smoke gets affected or changes structure due to Lightening? I doubt it.

Also, luffy didnt at all stalemate the haki clashes,
Yes, they did.
It's not like Luffy got pushed back, he held his ground, so how that isn't a stalemate when Joker didn't even get his way is simply bias or denial; after this CoC stalemate, Luffy got the first hit in.

And you're going to deny this too:
  1. Is Joker's body as powerful as the Birdcage itself?
 

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A Laughable theory, so they don't fight at full strength because they don't want to win, makes a lot of sense.
No the theory is that he didnt fight at full power because he underetimated luffy, as all the other fighter were eliminated with....one electrical attack.
There's no instance Enel's attacks were moving at lightspeed whilst fighting; if Enel's attacks attacks were anything close to light speed, Luffy would not have been able to hit Enel at all, that's the point.
His electrical attacks were, but they didn't affect luffy

The premise is just common sense:
  1. Rubber and Electricity - Electricity gets insulated by Rubber.
  2. Smoke and Fire - There's really not interaction.
  3. Fire and Lava - Lava being somewhat like liquid quenches Fire.
It really is not Rocket science. the reaction is scientifically consistent; why there needs to be an experiment to show how Lightening would react with Smoke is ridiculous. It's not like Smoke gets nullified because of Lightening, the logic you're applying here is unexisting.

Have you even got any scientific data to even entertain that Smoke gets affected or changes structure due to Lightening? I doubt it.
For fuck sake, i know i know more about science than you, and yet im the one saying not to get too scientific, since there is no established premise, it could go either way, and since it could, its just best to assume that they can, and the fight would be up to who overpowers the other. With fire and smoke, it's pointless because they are symbiotic as you explained, but Gravity also has no effect on the fire, as fire is composed of heat(no effect from gravity whatsoever) and light (the only way it would affect light is if issho made a black hole, which he didn't make during his fight with sabo) EXPLAIN TO ME USING SCIENCE how gravity had any effect on sabo at all during the clash with issho? as science damn well says otherwise, yet you dare to lecture me about scientific premises, when none was established, and there are situations where established premises for interaction have been laid out, but defied none-the-less. Im just going to call bullshit. i wont be wasting anymore time on this. Enel's mastery of his devil fruit and the sheer range of his power, far surpasses anything smoker could do with his fruit, and was at the time vastly inferior to Enel
Yes, they did.
It's not like Luffy got pushed back, he held his ground, so how that isn't a stalemate when Joker didn't even get his way is simply bias or denial; after this CoC stalemate, Luffy got the first hit in.
So your gonna disregard when luffy's haki proved inferior, like here

next point

And you're going to deny this too:
  1. Is Joker's body as powerful as the Birdcage itself?
Is zorro's body as strong as his sword? Its a weapon idiot, and i dont see how it's relevant.
[EDIT] just looking at the pic above, reminds me of how law didnt at all impact the fight, funny isnt it?
 

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Is zorro's body as strong as his sword? Its a weapon idiot, and i dont see how it's relevant.
[EDIT] just looking at the pic above, reminds me of how law didnt at all impact the fight, funny isnt it?
We're not talking about people without DFs, you said that Luffy's body made him stronger than he should be. Joker has a Birdcage and strings that aren't reflective of his strength, so you're either biased or don't understand the manga.

If Gears aren't reflective of Luffy's powers, then neither as his strings.

So your gonna disregard when luffy's haki proved inferior, like here
That's because he was in the air, it mitigated the damage. Why is it that Joker was hurt to a mere kick on ground, but not to a Eagle Bazooka in the air?
Fac is Joker wasn't the only one getting hits in, so you're clearly being ignorant in this instance to anything that oppose or makes Joker look equally matched with Luffy.

Also, 2 people do not clash in a match of Haki without someone coming out on top like Luffy vs Chinjao, Garp vs. Chinjao and Zoro vs. Pica if they're not superior, and Joker didn't.



You simply omit facts to make a point, that's fabrication.

For fuck sake, i know i know more about science than you, and yet im
Yet, you feel that Electricity should affect smoke, sure, okay.

it could go either way, and since it could, its just best to assume that they can, and the fight would be up to who overpowers the other. With fire and smoke, it's pointless because they are symbiotic as you explained, but Gravity also has no effect on the fire, as fire is composed of heat(no effect from gravity whatsoever)
Fire is composed of heat? Heat is a byproduct of fire, not what makes fire. Heck, steam produces heat, does that make it "fire". Don't forget fire is a chemical reaction and they do have some form of mass, so yes, Gravity depending on how powerful could affect it. However, Smoke can't affect Fire and Vice Versa no matter.

No the theory is that he didnt fight at full power because he underetimated luffy, as all the other fighter were eliminated with....one electrical attack.
How fatuous; no one understimates an Opponent that's proving a challenge for an entire fight.

There's also no need to resort to childish tantrums and calling one an idiot, if you can't debate, don't debate.
 

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We're not talking about people without DFs, you said that Luffy's body made him stronger than he should be. Joker has a Birdcage and strings that aren't reflective of his strength, so you're either biased or don't understand the manga.

If Gears aren't reflective of Luffy's powers, then neither as his strings.
No, you simply dont understand what im saying. Im saying that gear 4th is a way to give him power that he doesn't have, by increasing the power of his punches with the help of good ole physics, and i said that this is still his power, but because it isnt reflective of his ACTUAL physical ability, being a physical fighter, then doffy exploiting the weakness cant be considered underhanded. which has been your only real point against doflamingo. Doffy's strings isnt reflective of his physical strength, he isnt a purely physical fighter, whats the point, unlike luffy, he leaves no weaknesses in his fighting style by being reckless and his way of fighting turned out to be superior, with luffy needing the country to help stall for 10 mins and all. thus making him superior to luffy...what ive said is 100% coherent with the actual manga, what i said is purely factual...no assumptions were made, doflamingo is superior (you said it yourself that doffy is 'advantaged') So my point stands, where these points have anything to do with enel? i dont know, but i don't mind putting an end to THIS discussion.
Back to enel.
We're not talking about people without DFs, you said that Luffy's body made him stronger than he should be. Joker has a Birdcage and strings that aren't reflective of his strength, so you're either biased or don't understand the manga.

If Gears aren't reflective of Luffy's powers, then neither as his strings.

That's because he was in the air, it mitigated the damage. Why is it that Joker was hurt to a mere kick on ground, but not to a Eagle Bazooka in the air?
Fact is Joker wasn't the only one getting hits in, so you're clearly being ignorant in this instance to anything that oppose or makes Joker look equally matched with Luffy.

Also, 2 people do not clash in a match of Haki without someone coming out on top like Luffy vs Chinjao, Garp vs. Chinjao and Zoro vs. Pica if they're not superior, and Joker didn't.


So apparently your mistake is that you have ASSUMED that doflamingo was going all out with the first clash of haki. If he takes a few hits, and then laughs it off as 'lacking power' then he's obviously adjusted to luffy's power, and with luffy getting in more hits, you would wonder why gear 4th (a last resort) was needed, if his fists were actually doing anything, but you aren't a good fan of logic. next point.
You simply omit facts to make a point, that's fabrication.
No...it isnt' http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fabrication, if anything, is disingenuous, or dishonest, but it isn't fabrication.
That's because he was in the air, it mitigated the damage. Why is it that Joker was hurt to a mere kick on ground, but not to a Eagle Bazooka in the air?
So the logical conclusion was that being in the air mitigated the damage and not that the punches didn't actually do any damage, which is what was stated in the manga? So i guess the manga is wrong and YOU are right. Next!
Yet, you feel that Electricity should affect smoke, sure, okay.
Not at all what i said, this is a lie. the irony is that you still haven't provided me with any evidence, any research, you gave your thoughts, and brought it forward as fact, you need to prove to me that electricity CANT affect smoke, and you havent, you brought your thoughts and presented them as fact.which i will just laugh at and call bullshit.
Fire is composed of heat? Heat is a byproduct of fire, not what makes fire. Heck, steam produces heat, does that make it "fire". Don't forget fire is a chemical reaction and they do have some form of mass, so yes, Gravity depending on how powerful could affect it. However, Smoke can't affect Fire and Vice Versa no matter.
Ok, every chemical reaction has 2 parts, energy and mass, now in combustion, the light and heat energy given off is what we call fire....but the actual mass.....(mostly carbon dioxide and water vapour) goes off into what we call SMOKE, since sabo can turn himself into the FLAMES, and not into the carbon compounds themselves which get burned and with the flames themselves having No weight (unless issho made a black hole), the fight should have been massively one sided but it wasn't so the scientific premise was completely ignored for sake of the plot, so you can rant on about science, i really dont care if you do anymore. you wont ever PROVE that lighting wont affect smoke, my point stands (and stands tall).
How fatuous; no one underestimates an Opponent that's proving a challenge for an entire fight.
Go look up the meaning of 'arrogance'.
There's also no need to resort to childish tantrums and calling one an idiot, if you can't debate, don't debate.
To be fair, majority of your posts don't have any actual POINTS.
 

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No, you simply dont understand what im saying. Im saying that gear 4th is a way to give him power that he doesn't have
Ironically enough, the same sad story can be made for Joker. He's not as strong as the Birdcage itself, yet he's able to create it. So, his power is as fake as Gear 4th.
So apparently your mistake is that you have ASSUMED that doflamingo was going all out with the first clash of haki.
The Clash of haki was to prove he was superior and they stalemated. Not an assumption,a fact. If there was a victor in that clash, someone would have lost at that moment like we see against Chinjao and Pica.
Not at all what i said, this is a lie. the irony is that you still haven't provided me with any evidence, any research, you gave your thoughts,
This is clearly what you must think since neither Enel or Smoker have Armament haki; your claime is somewhat baseless and unscientific. What makes you think Electricity affects Smoke, you're the one making claims with no research, just doubts based on nothing.
Go look up the meaning of 'arrogance'.
  1. Yeah Enel realized his electricity couldn't hurt Luffy and resorted to use melee attacks, you call adapting arrogant?
  2. Enel used Raijin which he created with the aid of his ship, you call that arrogance?
Poor excuses, he fought to the best of his potential or he'd never have gone all out as he did. If Enel were truly arrogant, he'd never have stopped attacking or acknowledging that his Electric attacks were rendered useless; if anything, it motivates the one to fight to their full or best potential.

It seems what you're unable to understand is that the concept of fighting with a superiority complex doesn't mean understimating the opponent.
To be fair, majority of your posts don't have any actual POINTS.
As can be mostly said in your case; mostly biased and lacks substance.
 

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