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xi0

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Yeah what lies? Unless you're implying that there's a difference between Clinton herself taking funds from the fossil fuel industry to a Super PAC supporting her taking it? First off, Super PACs shouldn't even exist in the first place, but if they are to exist, candidates acting like something like that is somehow irrelevant is laughable.
 

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Christians who do that are putting emphasis on "their" version of Christianity, but the basis is still the same. Whether you cherrypick the things you wish to live by or completely add on to the Bible like the Mormans do with their book. The basis is still the Bible. Jews have this in common with Christians as far as the Pentateuch goes. Islam has somewhat of a similar problem due to how schismatic it is. But even so, the Qur'an says what it says, as do the hadith. There are scholars who say many different things about many different hadith and their worth, so who is really in a position to say what the "true Islam" is? No one can, and that's really the problem in itself.


Don't get me wrong, if you go by the actual ideas the religious have at their disposal, the potential for violence is there with most religions. But with others, not so much. Just look at the Jains. They're most important belief is non-violence towards all living things. You're not going to find that sort of notion by reading the Bible or the Pentateuch or the Qur'an. So if you can't, how can you ever say what Obama said with a straight face? So what you're saying is we should just lie in an effort to prevent violence? What does that accomplish really? Has this really saved any lives? The mouthbreathers are still going to be prejudice or racist towards people who don't look like them, what they do or don't believe about their religion seems inconsequential to me.


Not sure why you bring up defending homosexuality here. As far as I can tell, you can't really choose against your own inborn nature, yet you can choose to be religious or not. And the religious definitely don't have a problem with convicting people for their inborn nature, especially Christians and Muslims.

And I don't remember what he did or didn't say, he was...yeah.
Sucks that people choose to believe in the violent side of religions.

Well, we shouldn't demonize religions and make it look violent. What does that do? the president is a in a way spokesperson for the country, he shouldn't be accusing religions of bein violent.

no, but I'm just saying, it's why I tend to be politically correct. Homosexuality and religions are different, but both see politically incorrect and insensitivity a lot. And this is coming from someone who detests religion and abhors God.

I do remember that part, and it's somewhere in this section. Maybe the thread on the Oslo terrorist?

Looks like Sanders is taking cues from the #TrusTED camp. Poor Hillary Clinton having to endure Sanders lies.
Typical republican hypocrisy. No problem with republicans (bar Cruz) lying, but if a democrat supposedly lies based on a shady politician's accusation, you point it out. You have no right or authority to complain about anyone lying, to be honest, especially when said politician isn't even lying.
 

xi0

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Well, we shouldn't demonize religions and make it look violent. What does that do? the president is a in a way spokesperson for the country, he shouldn't be accusing religions of bein violent.
Who is demonizing religion? The issues with them are self-evident, especially if you live in the western world and not a theocracy. He didn't have to accuse any of them of being violent, but he doesn't need to pander the left to the point of saying Islam is a religion of peace. But hey, maybe he really thinks that. There are tons of nominal Muslims, especially in this country, who don't commit the acts of violence that Muslims in some other countries do, I don't see why they need to be reassured by him. Him saying such a thing isn't going to prevent heinous hatecrimes from going on.

no, but I'm just saying, it's why I tend to be politically correct. Homosexuality and religions are different, but both see politically incorrect and insensitivity a lot. And this is coming from someone who detests religion and abhors God.
There's no reason to be politically correct really. Well you bring up homosexuality and religion despite them being different. No one should be persecuted for either, but one is obviously a choice and the other isn't.
 

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I said it's not as much of problem here in the US as far as the government goes, despite some people's best efforts. But it is still a problem among those who shape conversation and ideas.


Okay, let's look at the people. What constitutes mainstream really? It depends on the country, but if I say according to Pew Research Center, anywhere from 29%-86% of Muslims in the MENA and S. Asia believe apostates should be put to death. Is 29% really that small? Is that a passable minority when it comes to what most western societies would consider murder? What about the 44%-89% of Muslims who believe adultery is a crime and should be punishable by stoning? Or the 29%-74% of Muslims who believe Sharia law should apply to non-Muslims as well?

Not really talking about terrorism here necessarily. The Sunni and Shi'a conflict goes back centuries. How can it be peaceful when they're at war with themselves?

And I don't mean to be singling Islam out here when it comes to religion as a broader topic, it's only tangentially related to my point about Obama and his wording. I understand the reason for him doing it, but it's still pandering at the end of the day and it's something many people on the left are guilty of on a regular basis. Even going so far to lay the blame for terrorism completely at the West's feet for it's foreign policy, and disconnecting it from any sort of religious motivation, which is an unequivocally false notion.
But if it's not a problem with the government then there really isn't an issue at all, at least when it comes to free speech in general. I think I am missing your point.

My point was that they were not terrorists. Of course, looking at bit more deeply you'd find people who seem outright primitive but I would argue that is a different issue altogether.

Obama is the president of the US, there is nothing wrong with him being careful of what or how he says things. If anything that is something he should do. On the other hand I don't really get the impression he pulls his punches when speaking so to speak. I think obama usually aims to separate normal muslims (at the US and the ones fighting against isis along the US) from terrorists.
 

xi0

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But if it's not a problem with the government then there really isn't an issue at all, at least when it comes to free speech in general. I think I am missing your point.
That's not true at all. Nevermind that some leftist would prefer making it a government issue, the media has huge influence as well. Some would say censorship there is just as harmful to free discourse.

My point was that they were not terrorists. Of course, looking at bit more deeply you'd find people who seem outright primitive but I would argue that is a different issue altogether.
You really see that as being all that separate? Especially when a group like ISIS wants to make that sort of thing worldwide? i understand that they're a fraction of the Muslim population, but in many cases they hold the same sort of beliefs on many issues as a decent amount to a majority of the population of many countries in the MENA and Southern Asia. Them not being inclined to be violent is obviously good, but that doesn't mean they don't support some of the ideals that extremist groups have.

Obama is the president of the US, there is nothing wrong with him being careful of what or how he says things. If anything that is something he should do. On the other hand I don't really get the impression he pulls his punches when speaking so to speak. I think obama usually aims to separate normal muslims (at the US and the ones fighting against isis along the US) from terrorists.
For me, there's a difference between being careful and pandering. There's a difference between saying Islam is a religion of peace and saying the majority of Muslims are peaceful people, especially when he's speaking to Muslims in the US, or actually speaking at a Mosque here in DC. Muslims shouldn't be treated as outsiders (and I would say from my own experience that they aren't where I live) and need to be supported in order to help weed out extremism in their own communities, but the regressive left needs to stop holding their hands and stop being apologists for the theocratic views and oppressive behaviors many Muslims in the world have.
 

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That's not true at all. Nevermind that some leftist would prefer making it a government issue, the media has huge influence as well. Some would say censorship there is just as harmful to free discourse.

You really see that as being all that separate? Especially when a group like ISIS wants to make that sort of thing worldwide? i understand that they're a fraction of the Muslim population, but in many cases they hold the same sort of beliefs on many issues as a decent amount to a majority of the population of many countries in the MENA and Southern Asia. Them not being inclined to be violent is obviously good, but that doesn't mean they don't support some of the ideals that extremist groups have.

For me, there's a difference between being careful and pandering. There's a difference between saying Islam is a religion of peace and saying the majority of Muslims are peaceful people, especially when he's speaking to Muslims in the US, or actually speaking at a Mosque here in DC. Muslims shouldn't be treated as outsiders (and I would say from my own experience that they aren't where I live) and need to be supported in order to help weed out extremism in their own communities, but the regressive left needs to stop holding their hands and stop being apologists for the theocratic views and oppressive behaviors many Muslims in the world have.
That gets us to the whole free speech not actually being blocked by the government though. No one is being forced to say or think anything. I am not 100% sure of the leftists you mention though, maybe it is something I am not familiar with. As far as I can tell here what is going on here is that people are saying stuff and people react to it in different forms. Being concerned of the reaction your audience might have does not specifically imply a problem. Unless I am missing something (which I might, I go by the information I find) this sounds like "war on christmass" territory.

I think the difference should be whether they are actually committing acts of violence. There being some common ground shouldn't be the issue here. It shouldn't be a surprise that a terrorists groups that emerges somewhere would share some manner of views with people from around where it emerged. Just that should not be enough to group everything together.

That's a very subjective line though. Cultural differences aside, islam being a peaceful religion and the majority of muslims being peaceful are not very different statements. And when this is said the actual point is "don't be dicks to muslims"....
 

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Have you ever read the Quran and other holy texts of the muslim people, xi0? I'm certain you have but maybe point out specific passages from their texts and from reliable sites or something so you can prove what you write. I believe you that there probably is violent or hateful things on their holy texts just like in the bible BUT just outright believing it would be bad since this is a problem too many people share. Being mindless and discarding possible proof or taking something to be 100% true without bothering to check.
 
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xi0

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That gets us to the whole free speech not actually being blocked by the government though. No one is being forced to say or think anything. I am not 100% sure of the leftists you mention though, maybe it is something I am not familiar with. As far as I can tell here what is going on here is that people are saying stuff and people react to it in different forms. Being concerned of the reaction your audience might have does not specifically imply a problem. Unless I am missing something (which I might, I go by the information I find) this sounds like "war on christmass" territory.
I'm sort of confused why you keep bringing up free speech being blocked by the government. When did I say the government was actively doing this? Political correctness as an idea isn't necessarily something that has to be supported by laws or anything. Anyways, this is a critique on the media as much as it's on anything Obama has said on the matter.

Of course being careful with what you say isn't inherently a problem, but the rhetoric that is used by the left on this issue is oftentimes misleading. It is on the right as well of course, since there are those who'd prefer to use a broad brush in regard to any sort of social issue.

Not sure what you mean with your comparison to the "war on christmas" though.

I think the difference should be whether they are actually committing acts of violence. There being some common ground shouldn't be the issue here. It shouldn't be a surprise that a terrorists groups that emerges somewhere would share some manner of views with people from around where it emerged. Just that should not be enough to group everything together.
Like you said earlier, Islamic terrorism is responsible for the deaths of Muslims more than anyone else. So while I'm not condoning whatever you mean by grouping everyone together, it's a problem that these kind of communities help create and sometimes tacitly support. Free speech and ideas aren't tolerated in most theocracies, dissent and/or secularism aren't welcome and those that do it openly are usually silenced in some way or another.

That's a very subjective line though. Cultural differences aside, islam being a peaceful religion and the majority of muslims being peaceful are not very different statements. And when this is said the actual point is "don't be dicks to muslims"....
That might be Obama's intention in saying something like that, but I still don't see how any logical person could say that it's factually correct. Was Christianity a religion of peace during the crusades or the inquisition? What about the contribution the Catholic Church made to empowering fascism in post-WWI Europe? Or Christianity's role in the genocide in Rwanda? What about the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Khomeini calling for the assassination of Salman Rushdie for writing a work of fiction? Or the numerous edicts issued against cartoonists in Europe? Like I said, religiously-inspired violence isn't something unique to Islam, but it's obviously more relevant in a contemporary sense, especially in the western world. Little to no religion exists which has peace as a core tenant and doesn't repeatedly debase itself in this regard both in their own scripture and by the actions of it's leaders. Heck, even Buddhists in Myanmar have committed acts of of terrorism against Muslim...freaking Buddhists! I don't see how there is such a thing as a "religion" of peace period...unless you're Jain or something.

Have you ever read the Quran and other holy texts of the muslim people, xi0? I'm certain you have but maybe point out specific passages from their texts and from reliable sites or something so you can prove what you write. I believe you that there probably is violent or hateful things on their holy texts just like in the bible BUT just outright believing it would be bad since this is a problem too many people sure. Being mindless and discarding possible proof or taking something to be 100% true without bothering to check.
Not enough to speak on specifics. Plus, I can't read Arabic, which is said by many to be the only way to actually read it. But I put faith in the words and works of apostates like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or reformists like Maajid Nawaz. I've read the Bible and the Pentateuch plenty though. I was confirmed Catholic and attended catechism.

I'm not trying to make broad generalizations here or turn this thread into a religious discussion again, I just don't agree with the statement Obama made and the general concept of political correctness and how it relates to this issue...and not the euphemism the Right likes to use to get their ignorant base all frothy. I'm simply saying that I think asserting Islam is a religion of peace and saying that all muslims are terrorists are both incorrect statements and counterproductive to the real issues we face as human beings.
 

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Yeah what lies? Unless you're implying that there's a difference between Clinton herself taking funds from the fossil fuel industry to a Super PAC supporting her taking it? First off, Super PACs shouldn't even exist in the first place, but if they are to exist, candidates acting like something like that is somehow irrelevant is laughable.
I dont have a problem with candidates receiving money from fossil fuel industries as it would help them be able to have some chips on the table to get more fossil fuel beneficial legislation made.

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Im glad Trump made his position known, now I can safely avoid voting for him and not feel like it be against my conscious and moral beliefs.
 

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Who is demonizing religion? The issues with them are self-evident, especially if you live in the western world and not a theocracy. He didn't have to accuse any of them of being violent, but he doesn't need to pander the left to the point of saying Islam is a religion of peace. But hey, maybe he really thinks that. There are tons of nominal Muslims, especially in this country, who don't commit the acts of violence that Muslims in some other countries do, I don't see why they need to be reassured by him. Him saying such a thing isn't going to prevent heinous hatecrimes from going on.


There's no reason to be politically correct really. Well you bring up homosexuality and religion despite them being different. No one should be persecuted for either, but one is obviously a choice and the other isn't.
Rights, Islamaphobes, and racists are demonizing Muslims. I don't think Obama is panderin to the left as much as he is tryin to be politically correct to avoid pissing people off, like Trump. I don't know if Obama truly believes Islam is a religion of peace, but I'd rather he say that than say Islam causes terrorism. A Muslim group even donated money to the church that was affected by Dylann Roof, but I don't see that being brought up much, if at al.

Maybe not, but at least it won't alienate the Muslims and make them think "hey, even the president thinks we're a horrible group!"

There is a reason to be politically correct if you're a president. Saying all Italians are oily-haired mobsters or all Canadians are pussies would be acceptable? Or what Trump said, calling illegal Mexican immigrants rapists and thieves is good? If Obama called Putin a piece of shady shit, I'm sure that would hurt our relationship with Russia [even more].


Im glad Trump made his position known, now I can safely avoid voting for him and not feel like it be against my conscious and moral beliefs.
Hypocritical conscience and moral beliefs. You're against abortion yet you don't want the country to accept refugee children who're fleeing wars and death.
 

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Lol ouch. Leave poor shark alone, he doesn't bother to understand the hypocrisy of his words and just blindly believes what the bible says about abortions xD it isn't his fault
 

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Lol ouch. Leave poor shark alone, he doesn't bother to understand the hypocrisy of his words and just blindly believes what the bible says about abortions xD it isn't his fault
How is being a murderer of helpless babies the same as letting security liabilities into the country. You do see the problems in Europe don't you? America does not need to become another France or Brussels. We dont need thousands of covert operatives on our shores.
 
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How is being a murderer of helpless babies the same as letting security liabilities into the country. You do see the problems in Europe don't you? America does not need to become another France or Brussels.
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WAT. You do realize these abortions end the life before it gains sentience? All it is at that point is a bulging mass of self sustained life without thought. There isn't a conscious to be killed yet. Now, granted you aren't wrong in that they are ending a life but no one "is in there" yet. No person so to speak of. Just a life. Besides, this is a far better alternative to, say, a mother/father that don't want to care for the poor child? Better never having lived a shit life than a being alive but hating it. And before you say some bullshit like "what about adoption?" Are you even aware of how fucked up the system is? They don't always do a good job of taking care of the kid and it can be detrimental to their mental health being pushed around like fucking unwanted garbage till (if ever :/) they find a reasonable home. (Sometimes they do ofc)
 

xi0

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Im glad Trump made his position known, now I can safely avoid voting for him and not feel like it be against my conscious and moral beliefs
Didn't you say that such things should be left up to the states?
 

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How is being a murderer of helpless babies the same as letting security liabilities into the country. You do see the problems in Europe don't you? America does not need to become another France or Brussels.
Provide proof or stats that refugee children are security liabilities, which I know you have none. It's still the same because if you're truly pro-life, then you would let refugee children into the country without caring about whether they MIGHT be security liability or not. Unwanted babies are far more of security liabilities than refugee children who want to live in peace. Pretty sure these unwanted babies grow up in a bad household or have bad childhood and become criminals as result.

You claim a future human could hold the secret of curing cancer. Well, same with a refugee child. You claim a refugee child is a security liability, but a baby who's not wanted is more likely to be a security liability due to bad childhood. So many people are hypocrites when it comes to being pro-life. Claim fetuses have a right to live, but say refugee children shouldn't be allowed when they want to live safely and peacefully or oppose welfare or support for children. Despicable and hypocritical.


Newsflash: America is not Europe. Despite what our lying politicians say, we're pretty safe, safer than France and Brussels who don't vet their refugees well like we do.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Didn't you say that such things should be left up to the states?
Isn't it established by now that Shark is all about double standards? Support same sex marriage, but get mad when the government legalizes it everywhere. Say government should intrude less, but support government banning what he's against or allowing what he believes in/wants.
 

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Didn't you say that such things should be left up to the states?
I dont hold that view for things involving life or death of citizens (death penalty/abortions but) but for civil things like marriage etc.
 

xi0

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Rights, Islamaphobes, and racists are demonizing Muslims. I don't think Obama is panderin to the left as much as he is tryin to be politically correct to avoid pissing people off, like Trump. I don't know if Obama truly believes Islam is a religion of peace, but I'd rather he say that than say Islam causes terrorism. A Muslim group even donated money to the church that was affected by Dylann Roof, but I don't see that being brought up much, if at al.
But that's the problem with political correctness for me...

Well good for them, but how is that relevant? I'm sure there are a ton of religious charities that do good things. It doesn't somehow negate the bad things they do or stand for.

Maybe not, but at least it won't alienate the Muslims and make them think "hey, even the president thinks we're a horrible group!"
Obama didn't have to say they're a horrible group. There's nothing to back that up in any objective way and I don't think that serves his message in any way either.

There is a reason to be politically correct if you're a president. Saying all Italians are oily-haired mobsters or all Canadians are pussies would be acceptable? Or what Trump said, calling illegal Mexican immigrants rapists and thieves is good? If Obama called Putin a piece of shady shit, I'm sure that would hurt our relationship with Russia [even more].
Why would he even need to give commentary on Italians or Canadians?...

I understand that the president is also a diplomat, but I just take exception with the characterization used in this situation. That's all.
 

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And fucking lol. "How is being a murderer of helpless babies the same as letting security liabilities into the country." Yet again you prove your "morals" are hypocritical xD so as long as the subject in question is 100% proven to be "innocent" it's wrong to kill them? (A baby is a clean slate ofc) but since the children are being chased away or forced by circumstances, then their innocence is questionable and thus not worth risking ones life on? You're too funny. Why don't firefighters/ploicemen/etc... stop risking their lives for people who are in extremely dangerous situations and just help out when it's safe? Funny how people like you claim to be believers in a god that supposedly loves all life and crap and yet ironically your answers are some of the most hearltess and self contradicting shit out there. Logically it makes sense but for someone with a "heart" it is hypocrisy xD
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
As a fictional character once put it. "You're only as good as the world allows you to be"
 

xi0

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I dont hold that view for things involving life or death of citizens (death penalty/abortions but) bu for civil things like marriage etc.
Yeah but fetuses aren't citizens. Abortion is protected under the 14th amendment, it isn't a states-rights issue anymore. You can implore anyone in your family or anyone you know not to have one if you feel that strongly about it, but it's still not going to be illegal.

So then you're against the death penalty as well? Why is that?
 

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WAT. You do realize these abortions end the life before it gains sentience? All it is at that point is a bulging mass of self sustained life without thought. There isn't a conscious to be killed yet. Now, granted you aren't wrong in that they are ending a life but no one "is in there" yet. No person so to speak of. Just a life. Besides, this is a far better alternative to, say, a mother/father that don't want to care for the poor child? Better never having lived a shit life than a being alive but hating it. And before you say some bullshit like "what about adoption?" Are you even aware of how fucked up the system is? They don't always do a good job of taking care of the kid and it can be detrimental to their mental health being pushed around like fucking unwanted garbage till (if ever :/) they find a reasonable home. (Sometimes they do ofc)
Someone would eventually be there so your eliminating the chance that something would have at life. So its a murder of a potential normal human which is very wrong to do. Worst youre assuming that people arent having abortions just because. You also assume only the poor are willing to take stranger's kids. The kids could be smart or very hands on later in life and do great things even if they were in an unpleasant environment its up the kid to do good in life and succeed. Just because a child is born in a situation in which bad life decisions were made doesnt mean their life will be bad.
 
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