No I think it was transmutation because transmutation can also change the properties of physical objects like Porcupine's hair transformation, Bicuit's body transformation, worms body transmutation, etc. It may also involve conjuration too but its probably just transmutation. If it was conjuration he would just be conjuring an image which doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well just conjure the physical texture of whatever you're trying to make at that point and just stick it with bungee gum so it can also feel how it looks.
I don't think transmutation affects the body directly, AFAIK I don't recall seeing such a statement in the manga.
In the case of this ability, both categories of nen would give the same results: With conjuration he would materialize an actual image from his toughts into some kinda sticker, then apply it on a surface. With transformation he can turn his aura to mimick the image in his thoughts, then apply that aura on a surface (it's pure aura though).
But as I said, the decisive point which makes me lean towards conjuration is that normal people (who can't use nen) can see the effects of the ability, meaning that there is a real image there and not just aura transformed.
P.S. : I don't think Porcupine uses transformation for his hair, it looks more like manipulation and enhancement to me . ( Enhance the growth of natural body hair, then manipulate it).
No I think it was transmutation because transmutation can also change the properties of physical objects like Porcupine's hair transformation, Bicuit's body transformation, worms body transmutation, etc. It may also involve conjuration too but its probably just transmutation. If it was conjuration he would just be conjuring an image which doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well just conjure the physical texture of whatever you're trying to make at that point and just stick it with bungee gum so it can also feel how it looks.
Porcupine was a Manipulator. Texture Surprise can be seen even by people without Nen , it's a Conjuration ability. Although he needs a material(akin to Manipulator) and the things he "prints" are in the end just imitations of the real thing, very good ones. Being a Transmuter Hisoka is pretty good at Conjuration too(80%) but this one is support ability. Taking his "memory" explanation to Kastro into account, it's the second ability he created to fill his.
Aura Combat & How Nen works.
Let's Dig in to the most complicated part of How combat Nen works. Let's Come to a consensus on how complicated the actuall equation is & why powers scaling is irrelevant, but more of a fun thing to do.
Attack/Defense/Strentgh Points- The physical Strentgh/upper body limit of a character...
Silva- 60Tons+
Illumi-60Tons+
Killua-60Tons
Gon- 60Tons or less
Mystery Points?- Adding Strict Vows & limitations allows for a stronger aura, Nen or ability effect; also allows you to pass 100% limit because of the unbalanced power
Kurapicka's Teacher gives us a basic equation early in Nen's introduction...
Head to head Manipulators/Conjurers always lose in enhancement even with equal physical Strentgh.....& Higher physical Strentgh doesn't entirely solve the whole problem...only vows or limitations are used to surpass the Normal 100% limit.
However we also have
RYU- The actually real time combat of GYO............RYU is the shifting of ones aura to either attack or defend with...So one can Defend with 100% aura by another who is attacking with 70%....etc etc for all the different variables
Now what I think many of us have failed to look at or analyze is the further explanation on how Nen is trained, for one to become a master or adept enough to really be a Nen fighter....MAP, PAP, AAP
MOP- Maxium Aura Power
Ex..Overall Amount of Aura you have
Pap- Potential Aura Power; If Nen used at 100% the power it would have
EX. Gon's Paper JaJanken cost his 4000 Aura Units; Its potential power is 4000 Aura Units
AAP- Actual Aura Power, the amount of Nen actually being used & not wasted; directly corresponds to PAP
Ex. Gon's paper JaJanken's PAP is 4000 Aura Units. The Actual Aura power it packed or was used was 500 Aura units.
During Gon's fight with Knuckle; Knuckle has a ability where he can calculate the max aura, max aura attack & actual aura attack amounts his opponent has.....Gon being inexperienced in Nen was able to preform moves like JaJanken Rock & Paper; However they would burn a lot of his Nen & he wouldn't attack with the full force/potential of the attack..
Now All of this information was to give a indepth explanation of the growth & development of the characters in Nen. I'm not hear to take a crack at Togashi for not entirely incorporating this system into his fights, because it would be boring if he did, he gave us this info just for us to get a more indepth gist....
But Does anyone get why it's so hard to actually rank the characters....You have MAP,AAP, PAP which I believe matters most to newbie Nen fighters; But fix that in with the RYU att/def percentages on top of the basic equation Of AP/DP + NP=.....You have a formula with too many uncontrolled variables
Ok. I am reading some posts on the discussion of chapter 357 and I thought I might clear out some points for good.
Concerning Hisoka's reanimation : What he did is completely legit and within the rules of nen. He gave instructions (or algorithms or orders) to his aura to perform a certain task. This uses the nen of manipulation, as was done before by Guildo in order to manipulate his tops, as well as many others. What Hisoka did was: put aura on his lunges and heart. Order it to contrat and decontract in order to massage his organs. He must have put a certain delay on activation. Now about how long he remained dead, technically for a reanimation to be possible he should not have exceeded 10 minutes. However since this is Hisoka, who displays superior-than-normal physical capacities, we can assume (and more or less accept) that his heart could stay dead for like 20 minutes, which is more than enough time for the spiders to transport him where he was.
Concerning Hisoka's limbs "recovery" : Remember the guy is a transmutation nen user. So what he did is simple. He shaped his aura to mimick (rubber) fingers and a leg, then applied "Texture surprise" on this aura in order to give it the image of a real hand/leg. He did so with his face too (probably recreated a new nose and lips with aura). Keep in mind that he could've done this during the battle, right when he lost his hand. However he was under constant assault by the dolls. Of course this is only temporary as I wouldn't call this a recovery. He still needs to heal himself.
Ok. I am reading some posts on the discussion of chapter 357 and I thought I might clear out some points for good.
Concerning Hisoka's reanimation : What he did is completely legit and within the rules of nen. He gave instructions (or algorithms or orders) to his aura to perform a certain task. This uses the nen of manipulation, as was done before by Guildo in order to manipulate his tops, as well as many others. What Hisoka did was: put aura on his lunges and heart. Order it to contrat and decontract in order to massage his organs. He must have put a certain delay on activation. Now about how long he remained dead, technically for a reanimation to be possible he should not have exceeded 10 minutes. However since this is Hisoka, who displays superior-than-normal physical capacities, we can assume (and more or less accept) that his heart could stay dead for like 20 minutes, which is more than enough time for the spiders to transport him where he was.
Concerning Hisoka's limbs "recovery" : Remember the guy is a transmutation nen user. So what he did is simple. He shaped his aura to mimick (rubber) fingers and a leg, then applied "Texture surprise" on this aura in order to give it the image of a real hand/leg. He did so with his face too (probably recreated a new nose and lips with aura). Keep in mind that he could've done this during the battle, right when he lost his hand. However he was under constant assault by the dolls. Of course this is only temporary as I wouldn't call this a recovery. He still needs to heal himself.
I dont think he put a delay on its activation. He really did die but his nen became stronger after death and then it activated to revive his heart and lungs and eventually his brain. He must have not died instantly but rather he died after a while of not having any oxygen to the brain then eventually once his heart restarted the nen infused blood must have also revived his brain.
As for him recovering his limbs its possible that he could only do it after he revived since his nen became stronger after death but it could have been possible for him to do it before although it wouldn't have helped him at all.
I dont think he put a delay on its activation. He really did die but his nen became stronger after death and then it activated to revive his heart and lungs and eventually his brain. He must have not died instantly but rather he died after a while of not having any oxygen to the brain then eventually once his heart restarted the nen infused blood must have also revived his brain.
As for him recovering his limbs its possible that he could only do it after he revived since his nen became stronger after death but it could have been possible for him to do it before although it wouldn't have helped him at all.
You are not wrong, but I am not either. Both our theories are plausible. However, what do you think about the following pattern :
Hisoka died --> Hisoka's nen became stronger after death ---> it gave him CPR and revived him ---> Hisoka is no longer dead ---> Condition for nen to be stronger is not met anymore (Hisoka's death) ---> Hisoka's nen going back to normal.
I really do not think Hisoka received a power bost on his nen (assuming the "nen became stronger after death" theory ). What he did with his limbs is totally possible for a skilled transmuter.
Unrelated to the earlier discussions, but one thing that struck me as that people really ignore the age dimension when it comes to aura power levels and whatnot.
We know that in HXH people's prime gets pushed significantly longer compared to real life thanks to the magical properties of aura, but there is still a concept of being in your prime and people still decline from old age. Netero abundantly stated that he lost about half of his power compared to his prime. No matter how much refinement or experience he gained after his prime, there's no way that can possibly make up for losing half of your raw power. Netero is also likely an exception in that his prime is exceptionally long and his decline seems to be very slow compared to everyone else. He's still drawn as a muscular man after he completed his solo training even though he should be around 60 years old or so by then (I think he did that about 50 years ago and he's at least older than 110 years). Compared to say, Zeno, we can see age already having an effect him by comparing how Zeno looks to Silva.
So when discussing stuff like 'most powerful', anyone at and older than Zeno's age is out (and Netero is dead). They may have great experiences and techniques, but they're already on the downhill path and can't compete on raw power against someone in his prime. Besides, there's no reason to believe someone in his prime, like Ging, is supposed to be stupid or lacking in experience. Assuming Netero's decline must be unusually slow compared to even other top tier guys because you sure don't see anyone else remotely near his age still actively in combat, we're talking about at least a factor of two and that's beyond what wisdom and clever tricks can mak eup.
Similarly, the 'younger than prime' generation can't compete with those in their prime. For example, Hisoka and Chrollo are both in their 20s according to the sourcebooks. Someone like Ging has at least 10 years of training and experience compared to them. This extends to anyone in Ging's generation, like say Razor or Biscuit. When comparing across a gap of at least 10 years, you can't say the younger character has more power or experience. There's no reason to believe Ging's generation sees less deadly combat compared to Hisoka's generation, and we know power and refinement is a direct result of training plus experience. Therefore, it is expected someone in Hisoka's generation to be dominated in raw power by someone in Ging's generation. It doesn't mean they have no chance of winning, but you got to respect guys who have at least a decade more of training and experience than you. In another ten years or so, it'd be Hisoka/Chrollo/Ilumi's generation, assuming they lived that long, but this isn't their time yet.
Now, three out of the four main characters of HXH clearly are exceptions that violate the generational gap standards. Gon is literally a monster. Killua is the greatest talent seen in his family. For all we know the Kurta might be an offshoot of the legendary Saiyan race. Those three also happen to be the main characters of HXH and gets to break all sorts of rules, so the norms don't apply to them.
You are not wrong, but I am not either. Both our theories are plausible. However, what do you think about the following pattern :
Hisoka died --> Hisoka's nen became stronger after death ---> it gave him CPR and revived him ---> Hisoka is no longer dead ---> Condition for nen to be stronger is not met anymore (Hisoka's death) ---> Hisoka's nen going back to normal.
I really do not think Hisoka received a power bost on his nen (assuming the "nen became stronger after death" theory ). What he did with his limbs is totally possible for a skilled transmuter.
(...) Now, three out of the four main characters of HXH clearly are exceptions that violate the generational gap standards. Gon is literally a monster. Killua is the greatest talent seen in his family. For all we know the Kurta might be an offshoot of the legendary Saiyan race. Those three also happen to be the main characters of HXH and gets to break all sorts of rules, so the norms don't apply to them.
I do not agree about this part. It's true that those three main characters are talented beyond imagination, but they do not break any rules afaik. Their growth in aura is quite fast, but one can see clearly the lack of experience and raw power when compared to older hunters (like Genthru, knuckles, Hisoka and so on...). I am sure that people like Ging or Netero displayed similar feats as those three when they were young. Kurapika is more special due to the scarlet eyes, and I hope there are some drawbacks about using them a lot.
Togashi could have made this cleaner with showing Hisoka surviving but dying of suffocation & then reviving through CPR....
1) Not showing how he died, despite the huge bomb blast & flashback puppet mob around him...Makes this look like a Hisoka save from Chrollo & fan service.
2) Everybody agree's & knows Nen can get stronger after death...We've never experienced somebody doing such a thing on a whim to be brought back from the dead. It was more along the lines or pre meditated determinations or motivations.
All the previous examples of stronger Nen after death are of stronger abilities or infinite ability durations.....W/O point 1 being fully explored or shown it doesn't look Kool...When somebody CPR's themselves back to life after dying for an unknown time limit or w/o a fully shown illustrated death to say CPR maybe would/could save them...It is what it looks like. Hisoka should have gotten blown up.
Moving on, cause I have moved on from LOL..The disappointment LOL...Hisoka's Nen was & wasn't brought back stronger IMO..Let me explain...His Nen doesn't have some mysterious amplifier on it now that's not what I think has happened....It's the limits/restrictions & capabilities of his Hatsu that has gotten stronger..Hisoka pre-death couldn't Shape His Bungee Gum 3 dimensionally as needed...Only as a tentacle/whip, or 2d spread sheet or bungee gum...But now he can shape it to resemble w/e he wants..Also texture surprise has been upgraded to where he can texture surprise his own bungee Aura & not just paper & cloth...That is super dangerous because now Hisoka can disguise his Hatsu/Aura as something else while his opponenets become ensnared in bungee gum...
so yea his Nen is stronger or better yet! what primarily gets stronger from Nen after death is Hatsu is what's gotten stronger.
I do not agree about this part. It's true that those three main characters are talented beyond imagination, but they do not break any rules afaik. Their growth in aura is quite fast, but one can see clearly the lack of experience and raw power when compared to older hunters (like Genthru, knuckles, Hisoka and so on...). I am sure that people like Ging or Netero displayed similar feats as those three when they were young. Kurapika is more special due to the scarlet eyes, and I hope there are some drawbacks about using them a lot.
Gon's transformation into Uber Gon flat out breaks the generational gap. Kurapika has his eyes. Killua is probably closer to just extremely talented (Netero placed Kurapika and Gon ahead of Killua in the final exam) and it looks more like Killua just got exiled before he can do something that breaks the norm. At any rate with the introduction of Alluka, it sort of solves the problem in the sense that no powerup Killua can get as a function of his talent would even matter compared to any powerup he can request from Alluka so even if he starts instant killing everyone for fun, nobody would doubt he can do that because he can always top that by just talking to Alluka.
Gon's transformation into Uber Gon flat out breaks the generational gap. Kurapika has his eyes. Killua is probably closer to just extremely talented (Netero placed Kurapika and Gon ahead of Killua in the final exam) and it looks more like Killua just got exiled before he can do something that breaks the norm. At any rate with the introduction of Alluka, it sort of solves the problem in the sense that no powerup Killua can get as a function of his talent would even matter compared to any powerup he can request from Alluka so even if he starts instant killing everyone for fun, nobody would doubt he can do that because he can always top that by just talking to Alluka.
I don't think alluka can hive him abilities.
Alluka, as Killua said, is terrible at healing things.
It was hard for her to heal gon and even to heal an injured bird, she has to touch it.
Giving someone abilities, at least for strong ones, is even harder than that, and it is also a long time effect, unlike just killing something (so it's not like enabling someone to shoot one fireball or healing one wound, but for example giving someone the permanent ability to use skillhunter).
I know we have not seen a limit of alluka yet, but i am pretty sure there is one, and i am also convinced killuah know more about her than the reader.
I also think there is a very good reason other than 'i dont want to abuse her' that killuah does not use commands on her anymore.
Togashi could have made this cleaner with showing Hisoka surviving but dying of suffocation & then reviving through CPR....
1) Not showing how he died, despite the huge bomb blast & flashback puppet mob around him...Makes this look like a Hisoka save from Chrollo & fan service.
2) Everybody agree's & knows Nen can get stronger after death...We've never experienced somebody doing such a thing on a whim to be brought back from the dead. It was more along the lines or pre meditated determinations or motivations.
All the previous examples of stronger Nen after death are of stronger abilities or infinite ability durations.....W/O point 1 being fully explored or shown it doesn't look Kool...When somebody CPR's themselves back to life after dying for an unknown time limit or w/o a fully shown illustrated death to say CPR maybe would/could save them...It is what it looks like. Hisoka should have gotten blown up.
Moving on, cause I have moved on from LOL..The disappointment LOL...Hisoka's Nen was & wasn't brought back stronger IMO..Let me explain...His Nen doesn't have some mysterious amplifier on it now that's not what I think has happened....It's the limits/restrictions & capabilities of his Hatsu that has gotten stronger..Hisoka pre-death couldn't Shape His Bungee Gum 3 dimensionally as needed...Only as a tentacle/whip, or 2d spread sheet or bungee gum...But now he can shape it to resemble w/e he wants..Also texture surprise has been upgraded to where he can texture surprise his own bungee Aura & not just paper & cloth...That is super dangerous because now Hisoka can disguise his Hatsu/Aura as something else while his opponenets become ensnared in bungee gum...
so yea his Nen is stronger or better yet! what primarily gets stronger from Nen after death is Hatsu is what's gotten stronger.
I don't t hink his nen got stronger. he did not mention it, nor was machi surprised he could do that.
I think hisoka does things on a whim with nen, he is just that good. He never needed a skill like that before, thus he never tried. Now he did.
It's the same with the CPR thing: He just tries stuff out and is good enough to pull it off.
He needed the 'nen staying behind' part of the deal because elseways ,after his death, the bungee gum would not expand and contract anymore.
Usually, when you are dead, your nen stops, and in this case, it didnt, but started when he was dead.
That is why i believe hisoka did not die from asphyxation, because his command was 'expand and contract after my death', and that only started when he was lying there with machi in the room.
He most probably still had brainfunctions before that, even if no heartbeat or a very very slow and faint heartbeat which doctors couldnt notice.
All of this with Hisoka made me think about Nen becoming stronger after death...
And this made me think about Kurapika and his Chain Jail, the vow of Chain Jail is that if he use it in anyone that isn't a Phantom Troupe member he will die (Which is a real problem now that Chrollo has Convert Hands by the way)... not that he can only use it in the Troupe, but that he will die if he use it in other person...
My question is... if Kurapika really want to use Chain Jail to capture someone (Let's say, to save a friend or something) other than a Troupe member, then Judgement Chain will kill him, but the ability would activate?
I mean, Nen can become stronger after death under certain circumstances, so maybe he can sacrifice himself to defeat someone that is not a Phantom Troupe member by using Chain Jail?
It's just something that crossed my mind yesterday
All of this with Hisoka made me think about Nen becoming stronger after death...
And this made me think about Kurapika and his Chain Jail, the vow of Chain Jail is that if he use it in anyone that isn't a Phantom Troupe member he will die (Which is a real problem now that Chrollo has Convert Hands by the way)... not that he can only use it in the Troupe, but that he will die if he use it in other person...
My question is... if Kurapika really want to use Chain Jail to capture someone (Let's say, to save a friend or something) other than a Troupe member, then Judgement Chain will kill him, but the ability would activate?
I mean, Nen can become stronger after death under certain circumstances, so maybe he can sacrifice himself to defeat someone that is not a Phantom Troupe member by using Chain Jail?
It's just something that crossed my mind yesterday
If he used Chain Jail on someone who isn't a Spider the ability will simply fizzle. When he was learning his ability, he said that he was going to make the condition 'Spiders only' and his trainer said that was pretty loose. As in, he could have no drawbacks and just a condition of "Spiders only". In this case, he obviously can still attempt to use Chain Jail on the wrong guy, and since there is no drawback, at the very minimum the ability has fail or why even have a condition in the first place? Leol had an ability that was 'only on rainy days'. If he tried to use it on a sunny day, it can't be the case that the ability just summons less water. It has to outright fail.
Now, if Kurapika tried to use Chain Jail on the wrong guy and died, the Chain Jail will always fizzle, but it is possible that existing Judgment Chains become empowered. That was the exact reason Phinx gave for not killing Kurapika because it is possible an empowered Judgment Chain will just outright kill Chrollo.
I believe he focused on Enhancement only thus disregarded Transmutation and Emission training. So, I believe someone like Gon who follows the ideal method(or other Enhancers following that method) has much higher chances to reach Uvo's goal over time with enough training. What do you think?
It's impossible to tell what are the individual requirement for a 'level X school' so it's all speculation. If you interpret Biscuit's statement as say to learn Enhancement school level 11, you must also master Transmute 8, Emission 8, Conjure 6, and Manipulation 6 (those are 80%/60% of level 10 Enhancement), then this case it's a training by requirement. You can't learn level 11 Enhancement without those prereqs in other schools so you got no choice.
The way I see Biscuit's statement is that you could either be 10/8/8/6/6 levels or you could be say, 11/2/2/1/1, and there's almost no conceivable case where the latter guy can beat the former guy in a fair fight. The only thing the latter guy would win is a pure test of strength (his level 11 Enhancement is still higher than the balanced guy and nothing else matters for a pure test of strength). It'd appear training require exponential effort in HXH, and in fact you don't even know if you'll ever complete certain levels. That is, a level 10 Enhancement could train for level 11 Enhancement and simply never get there because it's too difficult to be completed before your prime declines (and this overpowers any amount of training you may have) so you want to go with a balanced approach to make sure you don't just waste all your training on a level that you simply can't finish when you can still level up other schools. An example of this is when Gon tried to learn Emission level 6 (or was it 5?) in GI. He ended up spending a few weeks on it without anything to show for it because it was too difficult. Now, in that scenario they had nothing else to do so they might as well try, but there's no reason why this result can't happen to a higher level training that requires even more time.
So going back to Ubogin, his goal in life is simply punch as hard as possible, so there's nothing wrong with focusing only on Enhancement if that's all you're after. It's just not a very good idea when you start fighting guys who can mix up various schools to achieve combo effects that's more than just pure strength or pure anything else.
I think we simply can't tell whether uvo trained the way bisk described, as a mountain and whatnot. The way Uvo fought in general is not necessarily bad, if anything he was an ideal enhancer. The whole point of enhancers is that they are able to use basic techniques at maximum efficiency, they don't have the need for special or complicated hatsu. And he hardly is the only nen user to stick to basic techniques to great effectiveness. With that in mind it would be fallacious to say that because his hatsu did not have elements of other nen types uvo simply did not train in them. It is entirely possible that Uvo regularly trains multiple nen types but his hatsu is limited to a regular punch. It would be the best case scenario for him as he rips the benefits of being an enhancer as well as basic training. As well as being the best case scenario, this is also the most likely scenario.
One of the points bisk made is that learning other nen types makes learning your own easier... To me that sounds like learning other nen types helps you get better control of nen in general. And controlling nen is basically the whole deal, specially when it comes to ryu which is the single most important aspect of nen combat. If learning multiple types of nen helps controlling nen in general then this would also get a boost from that.
We don't know.
We know that kurapika becomes a specialist when his eyes are glowing and can then access all nen categories 100%.
But we don't know whether this is innate talent (and has to do with the rage which usually comes when his eyes turn scarlet) or a trait of his tribe.
If his whole tribe can do that, it is potentially very fearsome.
However, it seems like none of his tribe knew nen. If his tribe came from the DC and there are others of his kind there, then it is doubtful whether they know nen, too.
After all, there are probably other peaceful spots on the DC, not only lake moebius.
: I don't think Porcupine uses transformation for his hair, it looks more like manipulation and enhancement to me . ( Enhance the growth of natural body hair, then manipulate it).
