Final Jellal Fernandes vs Natsu Dragneel

[MCG_Raven]

The reason I bring up Solid Seal is because:

a) Something happens before GC and the OS refer to it as either a "Three dimensional seal" or a "Solid seal". Note that after the OS fight no one else has been able to escape Grand Chariot.
b) Before GC was cast Racer should have been able to escape the zone but he didn't even move, he was glued to the spot. (Same goes for the others)

As for cast time, I do agree that it likely does need to be set up but we've seen Jellal strategically set up spells before like in Jellal vs Jura. Given that the points for Solid Seal are in the same formation as the seal for GC then Jellal could set it up in Meteor and trick Natsu into thinking he's setting GC up. If Natsu tries to stop this he's going to have a tough time given how fast he is and that he'll likely be airborne. After he's got the seal set up he should be able to get one of his top tier nukes off as he did against the OS.

Edit: here are the scans.

http://img.one-piece.top//img/7/3696.jpg
http://mangafox.me/manga/fairy_tail/v43/c369/9.html

OH the "Solid Seal" you are talking about really is just Grand Chariot in progress. Three Dimensional means that has an actual volume in it's creation which is to say they are surrounded by it. They COULD have technically escaped but the shock of seeing this spell aready being halfway through its cast time was just too much for them to think straight which is why none of them escaped. Natsu strictly lacks the knowledge about such spells to even be really impressed by it until it hits so this wouldn't work on him as good.

 

[Ebony Maw]

OH the "Solid Seal" you are talking about really is just Grand Chariot in progress. Three Dimensional means that has an actual volume in it's creation which is to say they are surrounded by it. They COULD have technically escaped but the shock of seeing this spell aready being halfway through its cast time was just too much for them to think straight which is why none of them escaped. Natsu strictly lacks the knowledge about such spells to even be really impressed by it until it hits so this wouldn't work on him as good.

I'm not saying that's wrong but if that was GC in progress why weren't they being hurt? I also don't buy Racer not bolting out of there tbh, I get what you mean but... I don't know how to phrase it. :/

I'll try and post what I mean soon.

 

[MCG_Raven]

I'm not saying that's wrong but if that was GC in progress why weren't they being hurt? I also don't buy Racer not bolting out of there tbh, I get what you mean but... I don't know how to phrase it. :/

I'll try and post what I mean soon.

don't worry i do know what you mean but the thing is that if it wasn't GC then GC would have no Cast Time which we know is not the case thus confirming that it's GC. This is also supported by the fact that if there was a movement restriction in place racer or Cobra would actually comment on it because they would try to flee to confirm such a thing but as you can see they have no movement aside from turning around to see the formation which means none of the OS Members is actually thinking of fleeing

 

[Crimson Ice]

I'm not saying that's wrong but if that was GC in progress why weren't they being hurt? I also don't buy Racer not bolting out of there tbh, I get what you mean but... I don't know how to phrase it. :/

I'll try and post what I mean soon.

Ughh you realise Racer himself isn't physically fast right? His magic is slowing down your perception of time, so in a situation like this tryna escape an attack's large range wouldn't work.

 

[MCG_Raven]

Ughh you realise Racer himself isn't physically fast right? His magic is slowing down your perception of time, so in a situation like this tryna escape an attack's large range wouldn't work.

This is also a good point. Based on this we can pretty much confirm that not even one of them tried to escape because they didn't realize that they should in time.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Ughh you realise Racer himself isn't physically fast right? His magic is slowing down your perception of time, so in a situation like this tryna escape an attack's large range wouldn't work.

I think it's heavily implied that he now has his speed magic from KotSS, mainly because if it was his perception altering magic then Cobra would have been moving just as fast as Racer but he was moving at his regular speed. Add in the fact that Angel has her new magic, Cobra is missing an eye, they have new outfits and they mention the Zentopia event and I think that there are some things from KotSS that are canon.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 28, 2016 ---

don't worry i do know what you mean but the thing is that if it wasn't GC then GC would have no Cast Time which we know is not the case thus confirming that it's GC. This is also supported by the fact that if there was a movement restriction in place racer or Cobra would actually comment on it because they would try to flee to confirm such a thing but as you can see they have no movement aside from turning around to see the formation which means none of the OS Members is actually thinking of fleeing

With the thing before GC, I know it looks like that's part of GC but I don't think it is, in the anime adaptation (sorry, couldn't find the raws or scans after the other ones) you see beams of light going up for a considerable time, then Jellal says the incantation with the light from that shinning on his coat and then Grand Chariot happens. I'll try and find more scans but I'm pretty sure Solid Seal is a thing.

Edit: Link to the anime:

 

[Takuan]

I agree with @SaberToothFan post above. Racer IS fast now due to his new powers from KotSS arc. Those are not presented in the manga itself but implied enough from the fact that oother OS members have received their own new powers

 

[MCG_Raven]

I think it's heavily implied that he now has his speed magic from KotSS, mainly because if it was his perception altering magic then Cobra would have been moving just as fast as Racer but he was moving at his regular speed. Add in the fact that Angel has her new magic, Cobra is missing an eye, they have new outfits and they mention the Zentopia event and I think that there are some things from KotSS that are canon.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 28, 2016 ---

With the thing before GC, I know it looks like that's part of GC but I don't think it is, in the anime adaptation (sorry, couldn't find the raws or scans after the other ones) you see beams of light going up for a considerable time, then Jellal says the incantation with the light from that shinning on his coat and then Grand Chariot happens. I'll try and find more scans but I'm pretty sure Solid Seal is a thing.

Edit: Link to the anime:

i am currently watching the fight and it is literally the same thing as in the manga just a bit more drawn out. I really regret to tell you that this indeed is just the preperation phase of Grand Chariot. Solid Seal is basically just what i meant earlier it is voluminous instead of just a bunch of seals stacked on top of one another. They are actually surrounded by the REAL GC Spell. there is no way they can escape.

Also the KotSS thing: Unless otherwise stated in the Manga i consider the Anime and Manga as 2 seperate continuities anyways so yes in the Anime Racer has a different type of speed now (Not magic based most likely) but in the Manga he does not until they actually mention it imo.

 

[Ebony Maw]

i am currently watching the fight and it is literally the same thing as in the manga just a bit more drawn out. I really regret to tell you that this indeed is just the preperation phase of Grand Chariot. Solid Seal is basically just what i meant earlier it is voluminous instead of just a bunch of seals stacked on top of one another. They are actually surrounded by the REAL GC Spell. there is no way they can escape.

Also the KotSS thing: Unless otherwise stated in the Manga i consider the Anime and Manga as 2 seperate continuities anyways so yes in the Anime Racer has a different type of speed now (Not magic based most likely) but in the Manga he does not until they actually mention it imo.

Fair enough, this is the main reason for my argument but I'll keep trying to find scans to make it more legitimate.

 

[Jko]

I see there's a debate between which DF is stronger which I have to say is quite laughable because there's no way ToH DF is anywhere near as strong as Tartarus DF.

We can easily compare how strong his DF would be based off what his maximum was in each arc.

Base ToH Natsu's lifting strength was lifting logs

Spoiler

Edolas Natsu lifting strength was this

Spoiler

You can see the vast difference in strength between the two versions. Now lets compare Tenrou Natsu to Edolas Natsu.

Edolas Natsu had a hard time beating Dorma Anima with the help of Wendy and Gajeel but Tenrou Natsu was able to overcome Zancrow in power. In Tenrou the 7 kin subordinates pushed Gajeel to his limit farther than even Dorma Anima did.

Gajeel after the with Dorma Anima was still in pretty good shape

Spoiler

Gajeel after the fight with the Seven Kin subordinate was KOed for the entire day

Spoiler

Seven Kin subordinate are fodder to the actual Seven Kin

Spoiler

Wendy was oneshotted by Azuma which Dorma Anima could not do. So 7 Kin >= Dorma Anima is pretty much a given.

Now from Tenrou Natsu to Second Origin Natsu the gap widens significantly.

Tenrou Natsu was easily overpowered by Max

Spoiler

Second Origin (GMG/Tartarus) Natsu oneshots him

Spoiler

All the evidence proves that Second Origin Natsu >>>> Tenrou Natsu >> Edolas Natsu >> ToH Natsu which means DF Tartarus >>>>>>>>>>>> ToH Natsu as DF only triples Natsu's strength.

Anyways I don't see how Natsu doesn't win this. I say he'd win with just FDKM but DF is overkill. DF is a triple multiplier which means its 3x his maximum when he enters DF. So DF >>> FDKM >> Base Natsu.

 

[Crimson Ice]

I think it's heavily implied that he now has his speed magic from KotSS, mainly because if it was his perception altering magic then Cobra would have been moving just as fast as Racer but he was moving at his regular speed. Add in the fact that Angel has her new magic, Cobra is missing an eye, they have new outfits and they mention the Zentopia event and I think that there are some things from KotSS that are canon.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 28, 2016 ---

With the thing before GC, I know it looks like that's part of GC but I don't think it is, in the anime adaptation (sorry, couldn't find the raws or scans after the other ones) you see beams of light going up for a considerable time, then Jellal says the incantation with the light from that shinning on his coat and then Grand Chariot happens. I'll try and find more scans but I'm pretty sure Solid Seal is a thing.

Edit: Link to the anime:

The members from OS themselves lost their powers at the end of that filler arc while it was noting only Sorano got new powers and that was needed due her losing her keys.

 

[Ebony Maw]

The members from OS themselves lost their powers at the end of that filler arc while it was noting only Sorano got new powers and that was needed due her losing her keys.

Was it explicitly mentioned they lost them? Plus if that is true, that makes the Jellal vs OS thing really strange because Racer was outpacing Cobra by a large margin.

 

[Char]

No it is not logical whatsoever. Where is your proof that Natsu would have been killed by Jacob had he been able to use his move completely? Please show me the Manga Panel telling you that Natsu had no Chance of Survival had Happy not intervened. If you don't have such a panel your "argument" if i was to call it that falls flat as is therefore completely void.

Well you don't have proof that it wouldn't have killed Natsu either at least I've got one argument to back it up: Happy intervened because Hiro didn't want to complicate that fight and make it any longer than it should. Why would I think transporting Natsu to his own dimension wouldn't kill him any more than it would kill the other FT members? Because the other FT members are weaker than Natsu? Well, that's true.

But who knows what laws govern Jacob's dimension? Are the characters somehow defenseless, incapable of using magic? Are they not? As you see, we're both assuming here. My assumption is that Jacob can kill Natsu in his dimension. My argument is that it's Jacob's dimension and if he's NEVER missed a kill and considering his MP is superior to Natsu's and considering he was capable of transporting a lot of people into his dimension... That all leads me to think Natsu would be pretty much done with.

If you want to think otherwise it's fine but give me proof that Jacob won't be capable of doing anything even if he transports Natsu into his dimension.

Natsus Blood is red so his blood in the Manga can not be white. You know which substance was white though? Yup. The Metal that knife was made of. Conclusion: It is not blood but the Knife melting. This is indicated in the top Panel you have shown slightly and confirmed in the bottom left one where you see the same liquid drop off of Natsu without any wound whatsoever. And just remember this is still base Natsu. He is not even considerably powering up here. So none of Jacobs Physical Weapons would have any significant effect on Natsu if any at all.

How is steel white, by that same token? It's hard to figure out. Some are going to interpret it as blood, some as melted metal. We'll have to see the anime to conclude anything.

With all due respect, implying the real/intended color of the knife is white because it is white in the panel is nonsense.

Spoiler

Lucy and Mavis' hair looks white. Is it? No, it's blond. Lucy and Jacob's skin looks white. Is it white? No, their skin is the color of skin. The background looks white, does it mean the walls of FT are white? No, The background was not important so it was not drawn/painted.

Now, why does my claim about the knife not being white have more weight than yours? Because I don't know of any white metal used for weaponry (and if it was 'painted' in white the real color would be uncovered upon melting) + because we've seen more seemingly white elements that are not realistically white (which backs up my claim).

Now, that in recurrent panels Natsu does not show any wound would be an argument that would back up your theory that he wasn't actually pierced. To me, the image makes it clear that he kind of was, but looking at the whole picture I may be wrong.

Remember that this is a fight where Emotional barriers and shit like that do not count so Natsu is in a state that basically tells him to go all out. This means unless Jacob can clap his Hands faster than DF or FDKM Natsu can punch his ugly ass to the moon and back (neither of which have any evidence given to us) he is dead seconds into the fight. Because again without anything holding Natsu Back emotionally or mentally otherwise he fights with all he has and thus has a plethora of moves to actually roast Jacob alive while Jacob can yes try to get rid of Natsu but i don't remember Jaco having any evidence regarding the ability to transport moving targets with ease so DF Natsu might just outpace him. Again there is neither evidence for nor against this claim which is why i put the "might" here.

I kind of agree with you here. If we operate under the assumption that DF/FDKM Natsu may blitz Jacob (we can't know if he's fast enough so as to punch him before he claps), and if we're also operating under the assumption no weapon is going to work on him because his fire aura is going to melt anything that passes through it, then not only is FDKM/DF vastly superior to Jacob but to most of the verse. Wahl couldn't actually hurt him at all by that same token since anything he can throw at him is going to be melted, and energy attacks are going to be absorbed (most likely) as fire-based attacks... Heck, even Dimaria could freeze time, but she couldn't actually "kill" Natsu if his fire aura is still active/working after age seal.

On another note, Racer is faster than average, but Jet is probably faster. Racer can slow down time around himself so even Jet is going to be slowish to him.

I see there's a debate between which DF is stronger which I have to say is quite laughable because there's no way ToH DF is anywhere near as strong as Tartarus DF.

We can easily compare how strong his DF would be based off what his maximum was in each arc.

Base ToH Natsu's lifting strength was lifting logs

Spoiler

Edolas Natsu lifting strength was this

Spoiler

You can see the vast difference in strength between the two versions. Now lets compare Tenrou Natsu to Edolas Natsu.

Edolas Natsu had a hard time beating Dorma Anima with the help of Wendy and Gajeel but Tenrou Natsu was able to overcome Zancrow in power. In Tenrou the 7 kin subordinates pushed Gajeel to his limit farther than even Dorma Anima did.

Gajeel after the with Dorma Anima was still in pretty good shape

Spoiler

Gajeel after the fight with the Seven Kin subordinate was KOed for the entire day

Spoiler

Seven Kin subordinate are fodder to the actual Seven Kin

Spoiler

Wendy was oneshotted by Azuma which Dorma Anima could not do. So 7 Kin >= Dorma Anima is pretty much a given.

Now from Tenrou Natsu to Second Origin Natsu the gap widens significantly.

Tenrou Natsu was easily overpowered by Max

Spoiler

Second Origin (GMG/Tartarus) Natsu oneshots him

Spoiler

All the evidence proves that Second Origin Natsu >>>> Tenrou Natsu >> Edolas Natsu >> ToH Natsu which means DF Tartarus >>>>>>>>>>>> ToH Natsu as DF only triples Natsu's strength.

Anyways I don't see how Natsu doesn't win this. I say he'd win with just FDKM but DF is overkill. DF is a triple multiplier which means its 3x his maximum when he enters DF. So DF >>> FDKM >> Base Natsu.

WONDERFUL POST! Thank you

 

[MCG_Raven]

Well you don't have proof that it wouldn't have killed Natsu either at least I've got one argument to back it up: Happy intervened because Hiro didn't want to complicate that fight and make it any longer than it should. Why would I think transporting Natsu to his own dimension wouldn't kill him any more than it would kill the other FT members? Because the other FT members are weaker than Natsu? Well, that's true.

But who knows what laws govern Jacob's dimension? Are the characters somehow defenseless, incapable of using magic? Are they not? As you see, we're both assuming here. My assumption is that Jacob can kill Natsu in his dimension. My argument is that it's Jacob's dimension and if he's NEVER missed a kill and considering his MP is superior to Natsu's and considering he was capable of transporting a lot of people into his dimension... That all leads me to think Natsu would be pretty much done with.

If you want to think otherwise it's fine but give me proof that Jacob won't be capable of doing anything even if he transports Natsu into his dimension.



How is steel white, by that same token? It's hard to figure out. Some are going to interpret it as blood, some as melted metal. We'll have to see the anime to conclude anything.

With all due respect, implying the real/intended color of the knife is white because it is white in the panel is nonsense.

Spoiler

Lucy and Mavis' hair looks white. Is it? No, it's blond. Lucy and Jacob's skin looks white. Is it white? No, their skin is the color of skin. The background looks white, does it mean the walls of FT are white? No, The background was not important so it was not drawn/painted.

Now, why does my claim about the knife not being white have more weight than yours? Because I don't know of any white metal used for weaponry (and if it was 'painted' in white the real color would be uncovered upon melting) + because we've seen more seemingly white elements that are not realistically white (which backs up my claim).

Now, that in recurrent panels Natsu does not show any wound would be an argument that would back up your theory that he wasn't actually pierced. To me, the image makes it clear that he kind of was, but looking at the whole picture I may be wrong.



I kind of agree with you here. If we operate under the assumption that DF/FDKM Natsu may blitz Jacob (we can't know if he's fast enough so as to punch him before he claps), and if we're also operating under the assumption no weapon is going to work on him because his fire aura is going to melt anything that passes through it, then not only is FDKM/DF vastly superior to Jacob but to most of the verse. Wahl couldn't actually hurt him at all by that same token since anything he can throw at him is going to be melted, and energy attacks are going to be absorbed (most likely) as fire-based attacks... Heck, even Dimaria could freeze time, but she couldn't actually "kill" Natsu if his fire aura is still active/working after age seal.

On another note, Racer is faster than average, but Jet is probably faster. Racer can slow down time around himself so even Jet is going to be slowish to him.



WONDERFUL POST! Thank you

Okay you entirely missed what i actually tried to say with the white and red thing. Darker Colors like the Red of blood are not depicted as white in Manga. Just take a Look at Irenes or Erzas Hair they are shown as a Gray tone because while they are red which is already pretty dark for those circumstances it is still a pretty bright Red as compared to blood which is depicted as a black substance. Metals are generally left white for the same reason. They are already pretty bright Here a good comparison why this happens.

If both of those Objects were to be drawn black or white (read both the same color) What would happen? Exactly. They would completely merge into one being. Now the Sword is far brighter than the Cloth though you would agree right? So what do? Have the Cloth be a Shade of Grey or Black and make the Sword white to contrast that. Voila this Sword can now still be seen even in Manga form. Now let's please reobserve the Panels we see: Jacob throws a knife which as you can see clearly is drawn White Even if somebody were Colorblind he would know that so there is no debating that. Now here i have a small Picture or actual blood in Fairy Tail

Do you see the Color here? Again we have a white Dagger and the blood still spouting out of Karackas Back is black so we can confirm that blood in Fairy Tails Manga is indeed a dark color which as confirmed by the Anime is red. So now that we confirmed the basics let's get to the main part shall we?

Here we have the Page you base your claim that the Knife pierced Natsus Arm on right? It is right as i took it from your comment LOL. First thing we see is that Natsus entire Skincolor is grey as is the Knife here so suddenly you might assume the Knife is some slightly dark color...right Wrong. That my friend is what we call shadows. Because of the Lighting it is clear that everything has to be perceived darker so grey is used for shadowing. Simple right? NOW we get to the good part though. The Knife is NOT black so we can confirm it is not blood/Crimson red because as we established Blood would be blackso again look at the liquid is it black? Yes you might wanna yell out and i would tell you: NO! It is not black. Those are burnmarks and shadows. You can tell because the color is not filling the spot completely but only hatched onto the places needed. This is signifying both that the color is darkened by shadowing AND because it is an even darker tone that extreme heat was in play. Already everything points towards the Knife having melted. But let's go a step beyond that.

The same bottom left panel i addressed before. Let's ignore for now that Natsu has no wound because that much is obvious.

The Liquid dropping down is white and as we established already blood is black. Black is not white so this Liquid is indeed not blood. Which object again was depicted as white due to it being brighter? Eh? Eh?

Here i got a hint for you

So Assumptions about either of their speed aside we do now agree that the liquid dripping off of Natsu was indeed a molten knife. If you don't agree with me on that one i can not help you anymore because i have proven to you without a speck of a doubt that this substance was indeed NOT blood but molten metal. You might think it should have still had the Burn marks but that's not how molten metal works because when it melts it indeed becomes even more brighter to the point where it actually appears whiteor bright orange depending on the amount of heat you did use. Natsu is (no pun intended) damn hot already so we can assume that it either retained its original color or went Orange or pure white.

So the Knife did de facto NOT pierce his arm at all.

 

[Demon Hunter]

I don't know man. this is very difficult. Spriggans were said to be equal but people won't acknowledge that because

Ajeel - he was first shitted by Laxus with one with lightning bolt and his casual nuke. in the end he was beaten by Erza and Bisca. that makes Ajeel weak

Dimaria - she was beaten by Chelia despite knowing that Chelia was a DIRECT COUNTER because she was a GOD SLAYER and Dimaria is a GODDESS.

Wahl - he was beaten by Laxus despite Wahl's immunity to his lightning and it was an asspull to most people. how many asspulls does FT have?? this is nothing new and its logical if you take your time to understand this fight.

Jacob - he was beaten because of his "gentleman" weakness and the fact that Happy and Lucy helped in his defeat. Natsu finished him of with his strongest mode (excluding DF) with one of his strongest attacks in this arc. I admit, this one was weird.

Neinhart - his magic was creating dead corpses from people's past to fight for him ( Hades, Zancrow, Ezel, Ur, Simon, Kyouka, Ikagura, Azuma, Keith ). he started to be afraid when he noticed that Erza was related to Irene. he was defeated by Jellal who charged up his Grand Chariot by a big deal and he was heavily breathing after he cast it.

Brandman - that guy took out Sabertooth. well, Sting and Rogue are not that strong but he still took them out easily. he was beaten by Gajeel (possibly in DF) who managed to hit him. Brandman was intangible and he took Gajeel with him who is now apparently alive.

God Serena - he took down GoI and Jura. GoI were said to be stronger than Jura. if you ask me, they didn't impress me at all. they had their hype but they didn't bring anything. the only one who impressed me was Hyberion who even impressed August. God Serena was killed by Acnologia. c'mon, that is Acnologia.

Brandish - she was defeated with a gag. she got that stupid thing with sand and because of that she was knocked out by Cana. its no different when Erza one shots Natsu.


if you ask me, those who have beaten a Spriggan should relatively be close to each other in power. we have yet to see what Erza has since she apparently has some new magic. give someone a time to charge up their attack and they will one shot a Spriggan.

as for this battle, I will give it to Jellal. its basically " toss up a coin" battle.

 

[kkck]

I am going for Jellal in this one. As far as we have seen jellal has had somewhat impressive growth through the manga. A year back during the tournament he displayed power which was compared directly to gildarts. Then he took out all oracion 6 members, which as far as we know is a rather impressive feat. And more recently we saw evidence that he should be able to take on actual springan on his own, something which very few people have done so far. Laxus did it. Gajeel technically did but the implication was made that his enemy was particularly weak compared to other springan and even then he managed to take gajeel with him. There is also the consideration that gajeel managed to acquire a power boost in the last second. Dimaria was defeated by the effort of 3 people. Erza had help from 2 jupiter shots. Serena was defeated by acknologia... Jacob was defeated by the effort of natsu, lucy and makarov.

Natsu seems pretty powerful nowadays but to me it does not look like he would have won against jacob without a fair bit of help and the power he has displayed so far does not seem to be enough to win against the other springan. Even when confronted with Ajir he was mostly on the run, as well the others.

The only option natsu might have here would be of course dragon force. The transformation should multiply his power a number of times from his base form. With this it wouldn't be weird at all if he managed to even outclass several of the springan. However the big question would be whether natsu has dragon force right now. There is evidence that the dragons leaving natsu's body is what enables regular dragon slayers to use dragon force at will however there is no evidence natsu has acquired this level of mastery in using the form. Gajeel seems completely incapable of it, it would not be a stretch for natsu to not having learned it yet.

So for the time being I am going for gerard. Natsu with dragon force would take it but not natsu as of this moment in the manga.

 

[Boomburst]

I hate how people keep bringing up Natsu vs Jacob as proof that Natsu isnt as strong as Jellal. Jacob has one of the haxiest magics in the entire series and Jellal honestly wouldn't fare any better against him than Natsu did.

 

[Jko]

Jacob >>> Neinhart in stats and his hax ain't dependent on who he fights. Neinhart had to fight Jellal with a fudging Simon Historia and y'all think that's comparable to Jacob? Everyone on the entire battlefield had more of an actual fight against Neinhart then Jellal did lol. Jellal would also get no diff by Jacob too and Natsu would easily be able to oneshot Ninefodder/Fodderheart easily.

 

[Rain Cloud]

This is my opinion on pre-skip DF Natsu and pre-skip Jellal.... they're both oneshottable by X792 base Natsu.

Other than speed (for meteor and DF), they would stack up quite poorly compared to current Jellal and Natsu.

Think about how strong Jellal is in Tartarus. He wasn't as strong as Gildarts. He'd probably beat Bluenote with high difficulty. Physically, Bluenote would have better feats than Tartarus Jellal. X792 Base Natsu can therefore oneshot Jellal with a roar. Simply put, current Jellal/Natsu would low diff pre-skip Jellal.

So I wouldn't really bother at all with those pre-skip feats. Unless you want to say Jellal and Natsu have their former levels magically and physically... which is obviously not the case.

Jellal and Natsu should have better durability right now. It seems to get better when you train. And we know Natsu trained as much as he could, and it seems Jellal trained a fair bit too.




This depends on how you want to look at it.

Imo, Tartarus DF >= Etherion DF Natsu. For mine it comes down the amount of scales/dragonification Natsu has undergone. Essentially he's more dragon in Tartarus than he was at the ToH. Mard took on more powerful attacks than Jellal did imo. Of course there is more MP in the ToH version, which is why I put it as >= and not >. The extra MP I believe will allow ToH DF to last longer, but not necessarily be a stronger mode.

Wendy also has 2 stages of DF in X792, and the more dragonised form is the stronger one.

Spoiler: Etherion DF appearance

Spoiler: Tartarus DF appearance

I'd probably use plot as an argument for power ups (like Igneel's MP), but probably not for this. I mean you can just say Natsu didn't solo Jacob, which is true.

> Think about how strong Jellal is in Tartarus. He wasn't as strong as Gildarts. He'd probably beat Bluenote with high difficulty. Physically, Bluenote would have better feats than Tartarus Jellal. X792 Base Natsu can therefore oneshot Jellal with a roar. Simply put, current Jellal/Natsu would low diff pre-skip Jellal.

"He wasn't as strong as Gildarts" evidence? Second "He'd probably beat Bluenote with high difficulty" based off what what? I think tartarus base natsu was already able to beat the bluenote we saw post time skip at high difficulty, Jellal would have no problem. Physically, all bluenote has done is punch one of gildart's casual testing punches. That's not much for durability feats (unless I'm forgetting something) I'm not saying Bluenote has no durability, but there's no way you can argue that Tartarus Jellal and Bluenote are comparable with that kind of a gap. Hyped Gildarts > Tartarus Jellal > Tartarus Base Natsu > or = Bluenote.

No no, I agree with you! Tartarus DF definitely > ToH DF. absolutely no one is debating whether tartarus df is stronger, that's just bs. Other than his hits CQC being harder & that secret (which didn't harm mard geer by much), we didn't really see much of his DF before it went out. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Boomburst]

Now you're just speculating. Showing Gildarts and Natsu doesn't mean he has surpassed him. Jacob was barley pushed back by Natsus punches, it took one of his strongest spells to move him.

Natsu shouldn't have never made this far into the tournament. If that's the case then Gray and Natsu should be the final battle considering the fact that they have been equal for the entire series.

Again, Natsu was holding back in the majority of that battle, so him not being able to push Jacob back very much shouldn't really be held against him.

Gray has been portrayed as Natsu's equal all the way until after the time skip. We know that Natsu has dedicated that entire year to training and that he's improved tremendously. Gray, on the other hand, has had barely any feats since the time skip and it's unreasonable to assume that Gray has improved just as much as Natsu.