Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[XXGenesis]

Nen classification is unique to each Individual user....I'm not saying having Kurta Clan eyes would make you a specialist just because you have the eyes...it's not a far off theory to maybe even think that many of them were specialist....But it wouldn't be of the same effect of Emeperor Time with 100% Nen efficiency in all categories...Their individual ability would be different if they would become specialists...

Some members of the Kurta Clan did know Nen...Uvo wouldn't have said they were strong otherwise......Strong enough to put up a fight but not strong enough to kill any of the Spiders during their raid

 

[Copy Panda]

It is a far off theory that most/many of them were specialists lol

You're saying that we've seen one Kurta specialist, which makes it more likely they're all specialists, even though specialism is a special category in that sense

 

[XXGenesis]

1) We are taking about What If's...Neither of us can be wrong or right.

2) Kurta Clan seems to be descendants from the Dark Continent...They undoubtly become stronger & more aggressive when excited & scarlet eyes are present..

3) The fact that Scarlet Eyes power them up...There's no way to know if the effect on each individual's Nen would be via Specialist Shift. Or simply a regular overall output & capacity boost.

4) The Kurta Clan, could have possibly been a clan of all specialist when they go Scarlet Eyes...

Overall my point is that they wouldn't have Emperor Time like Kurapicka, but a different usage of specialization

 

[kkck]

It is a far off theory that most/many of them were specialists lol

You're saying that we've seen one Kurta specialist, which makes it more likely they're all specialists, even though specialism is a special category in that sense

Well, considering the context it would actually make sense if all kurata clan members were similar to kurapika in that they get something when their eyes turn red. Not necessarily the exact same thing as kurapika though. Specialization is not something learned, you are either born with it or acquire it randomly at best. The manga has specifically mentioned a genetic element to it. If there is a genetic element to it and kurata's red eyes are a genetic element then it more than makes sense that every kurata clan member would be specialization, same as kurapica, when in their red eye state.

 

[shionoro]

In the latest arc, togashi threw in some new applications of nen: The joint nen, in which different users combine their nen (actually seen before with greed island but now explained a bit more) and parasyte nen which drains the lifeforce of the user to (in our case, for example) fuel a nenbeast.

I am curious about the latter one, because it reminds me awefully much of alluka.
I think that nanika is a parasyte nentype imbued into a human by a calamity (ai, in this case). I have formulated that theory before, but with the latest chapter, i am sure of it and can elaborate it further.

Let's look at alluka's ability: Either she can grant a wish and then a sacrifice has to be made to 'pay' for it before a new wish can be wished, or she can be commanded (at least by killuah).
The bigger the wish, the more people (possibly) die for its fullfillment. A lot of people back then were not intrigued by the idea tha tkilluah could just wish for things without cost. It really did not seem to make sense. But it does make sense when you see nanika as a parasyte.
Usually, small wishes can be replenished just by alluka resting and eating. The requests she does after those are reasonable.
For big wishes, the requests are absurd and it is clear the next one she requests somethign from will die. In this case, alluka replenishes her own life force/nen with all the dead people's ones.
However, the question is how the replenishes after big wishes killuah does.
I think either alluka's own lifeforce is wasted for this and she will waste remaining years of life, or killuah is the one paying.

Teleportion and actions like that come rather easily to alluka as i tseems, while she has the biggest problems in healing.
And it makes sense: after all, teleporting something or killing something is much less complex than healing a creature.
It must have been a terrible strain for alluka, indicated by her scream, to heal gon's nencurse.
his nencurse was something even beyond the capacity of usual healing thing slike biscuits massage and probably even archangels breath.
We don't actually know how big of a burden she has taken.
It would also explain why killuah is very reluctant to wish for things like 'i wish our family would forget alluka exists'.
He has no idea how hard that wish will be and whether it will strain her lifeforce further.
He also knows how much risk alluka poses now. If she requests from someone who cannot fullfill her wishes, then there is a good chance a whole continent is wiped out depending on how hard it actually came to her to heal gon.

According to Bill (kirapika's bodyguard coworker), people who have parasyte nentipes in them are not necessarily aware of it.
I would assume it is a type of nen that is a lot like conjuration, but instead existing by itself like a conjured item, it fuels itself by the lifeforce of a person to have much stronger sources of energy than a conjured item.

 

[Demonspeed]

Parasitic Nen can't be anything other than Conjuration or Specialization IMO. Bill even said that it's mainly Conjuration, that's why Conjurers and Manipulators are closer to the Specialization category. With a Manipulation ability, the target is unaware that it is controlled, even if it is aware, it doesn't matter. Enhancement, Transmutation and Emission abilities are not complex enough to work like that IMO.

As for Alluka, we initially thought that she was a genius, but with Ai things become more complicated. It is similar but I am not sure I'd call it Parasitic Nen, at least not the same kind . Alluka herself is the one who asks the questions, her eyes are not black, as far as we know, Killua who knows her the best says that's it's really her, so no signs of manipulation from Nanika. She knows how dangerous her ability is(judging from her reaction when she asked Tsubone to tear her nail, she knows) and yet she keeps doing that, why? Is it because she herself is twisted? It's possible but I prefer to disregard that for now.

There is the epithet "Codependence of desire" for Ai. Alluka asks things willingly but they both agreed on something before that, or Ai stimulates Alluka without Nen, Alluka can't stop making requests because she is addicted to it. Ai itself is a calamity so it being able to destroy easily makes sense to me, I don't consider healing that complex. I think it just ended up liking Killua and decided to grant anything he wishes, he is an exception, even though it could have granted anything without costs to the others. Nanika is normally a calamity which should have led to the world's destruction but because of its feelings for Killua it doesn't act as one when he is the one asking.

We know that after healing Alluka needs to rest, so this is a similarity with Parasitic Nen, Nanika feeds on her Aura, but the Aura volume used for some wishes is incredibly high(like when Nanika healed Gon), it's not something Alluka could produce by herself. So, I think that instead of being Parasitic Nen, it's some kind of Symbiotic Nen, a mix of both, hence the epithet "Codependence of desire" for Ai.

 

[kkck]

Parasitic Nen can't be anything other than Conjuration or Specialization IMO. Bill even said that it's mainly Conjuration, that's why Conjurers and Manipulators are closer to the Specialization category. With a Manipulation ability, the target is unaware that it is controlled, even if it is aware, it doesn't matter. Enhancement, Transmutation and Emission abilities are not complex enough to work like that IMO.

As for Alluka, we initially thought that she was a genius, but with Ai things become more complicated. It is similar but I am not sure I'd call it Parasitic Nen, at least not the same kind . Alluka herself is the one who asks the questions, her eyes are not black, as far as we know, Killua who knows her the best says that's it's really her, so no signs of manipulation from Nanika. She knows how dangerous her ability is(judging from her reaction when she asked Tsubone to tear her nail, she knows) and yet she keeps doing that, why? Is it because she herself is twisted? It's possible but I prefer to disregard that for now.

There is the epithet "Codependence of desire" for Ai. Alluka asks things willingly but they both agreed on something before that, or Ai stimulates Alluka without Nen, Alluka can't stop making requests because she is addicted to it. Ai itself is a calamity so it being able to destroy easily makes sense to me, I don't consider healing that complex. I think it just ended up liking Killua and decided to grant anything he wishes, he is an exception, even though it could have granted anything without costs to the others. Nanika is normally a calamity which should have led to the world's destruction but because of its feelings for Killua it doesn't act as one when he is the one asking.

We know that after healing Alluka needs to rest, so this is a similarity with Parasitic Nen, Nanika feeds on her Aura, but the Aura volume used for some wishes is incredibly high(like when Nanika healed Gon), it's not something Alluka could produce by herself. So, I think that instead of being Parasitic Nen, it's some kind of Symbiotic Nen, a mix of both, hence the epithet "Codependence of desire" for Ai.

I am not sure conjuration makes sense. So far the parasitic nen we have seen cannot be seen by regular people. Emission in that regard makes a lot more sense. As for how complex it is, it depends on the user, there isn't a clear limit here. Perhaps specialization makes more sense in regards to the nen beasts we are seeing considering they seem to come from a vase.

When thinking of alluka.. my impression is that an AI is quite literally inside of her. And when her eyes turn black it is literally that other being talking. However I do question whether it really is parasitic in nature. The implication would be that Ai would basically be feeding of alluka. However we have not seen anything like that so far. And based on the other AI people have run into, it does not seem like they need a host to do their thing. As in, nanika does not need to feed of alluka to grant wishes.

 

[Demonspeed]

I am not sure conjuration makes sense. So far the parasitic nen we have seen cannot be seen by regular people. Emission in that regard makes a lot more sense. As for how complex it is, it depends on the user, there isn't a clear limit here. Perhaps specialization makes more sense in regards to the nen beasts we are seeing considering they seem to come from a vase.

When thinking of alluka.. my impression is that an AI is quite literally inside of her. And when her eyes turn black it is literally that other being talking. However I do question whether it really is parasitic in nature. The implication would be that Ai would basically be feeding of alluka. However we have not seen anything like that so far. And based on the other AI people have run into, it does not seem like they need a host to do their thing. As in, nanika does not need to feed of alluka to grant wishes.

It can't be seen but the Parasitic Nen protecting the princes is a Conjuration Hatsu. The first king of Kakin conjured his urn and its functions is to create Guardian Beasts for his descendants.

I think we can infer that Nanika feeds on Alluka's Aura. At least when Nanika needs to heal, because when she does, Alluka falls asleep afterwards, which is a sign of Aura exhaustion. Bill talked about this in the last chapter too, the Guardian Beasts can do everything they want while their respective princes get tired.

 

[kkck]

It can't be seen but the Parasitic Nen protecting the princes is a Conjuration Hatsu. The first king of Kakin conjured his urn and its functions is to create Guardian Beasts for his descendants.

I think we can infer that Nanika feeds on Alluka's Aura. At least when Nanika needs to heal, because when she does, Alluka falls asleep afterwards, which is a sign of Aura exhaustion. Bill talked about this in the last chapter too, the Guardian Beasts can do everything they want while their respective princes get tired.

Well, the vase can be conjured (I don't remember the manga saying that though) but that does not mean the beast themselves are conjured. They are made of nen, by definition they are not conjured.

There should at least be more to feeding from alluka though. Can you imagine a small little boy that has never been trained feeding something that can kill thousands upon thousands in an instant? I could buy that there is something that nanika is getting out of this but there is plenty of evidence to suggest it is not power to do its thing.

 

[shionoro]

we should not Forget that the nentypes and all the workings of nen we have encountered so far were presented to us in the framwork of martial arts, so very user focussed.

It is very well possible that there is more to it than the 5 types.
A parasyte nentype could have a nentype of ist own.

The user might be of one nentype and the parasyte of another.

I could for example imagine a parasyte which strengthens the host in Exchange of lifeforce (so is an enhancer) while the actal nenuser has to emit the parasyte into the host, so stay in his vicinity.

I think a scientist would classify and categorize nen in very different ways than the ones we are used to.

@Demonspeed I am not sure whether nanika actually likes killuah.
Her being helpless and even crying when he tries to shun her is, in my opinion, a plot to make alluka and subsequently killuah protect her.

I have also thought about how alluka could provide the lifeforce to fuel wishes like healing gon and i think it is possible.
After all, gon is a 12 year old Boy and his lifeforce could fuel Aura making him into super gon.
Given, gon knew nen and was very strong before, but I do think that depending on the parasyte nen converging it lifeforce could translate very generously into effect. We still cannot rule out the possiblity of nanika accesssing killuah's lifeforce if he issues a command.

 

[kkck]

we should not Forget that the nentypes and all the workings of nen we have encountered so far were presented to us in the framwork of martial arts, so very user focussed.

It is very well possible that there is more to it than the 5 types.
A parasyte nentype could have a nentype of ist own.

The user might be of one nentype and the parasyte of another.

I could for example imagine a parasyte which strengthens the host in Exchange of lifeforce (so is an enhancer) while the actal nenuser has to emit the parasyte into the host, so stay in his vicinity.

I think a scientist would classify and categorize nen in very different ways than the ones we are used to.

@Demonspeed I am not sure whether nanika actually likes killuah.
Her being helpless and even crying when he tries to shun her is, in my opinion, a plot to make alluka and subsequently killuah protect her.

I have also thought about how alluka could provide the lifeforce to fuel wishes like healing gon and i think it is possible.
After all, gon is a 12 year old Boy and his lifeforce could fuel Aura making him into super gon.
Given, gon knew nen and was very strong before, but I do think that depending on the parasyte nen converging it lifeforce could translate very generously into effect. We still cannot rule out the possiblity of nanika accesssing killuah's lifeforce if he issues a command.

Well, we are definitely talking about multiple nen types being involved. So we are talking about a conjured or otherwise nen enhanced pot (from beyond the grave at that) that creates nen beasts which have different abilities. However each step there in there (pot --->beast----> ability) should for the most part fit into a nen category. What you describe as in a parasite nen being a category of its own would be specialization simply because specialization is not really a nen class but rather where you dump in anything that does not fit with the rest. So you have the pot which is either conjured or nen conditioned, the beast which should be a combination of emission, manipulation, and transformation (if the beast were conjured they wouldn't even be "nen" beasts) and then the abilities of the creatures which could be as arbitrary as any other nen ability considering the limited evidence we have.

 

[shionoro]

Well, we are definitely talking about multiple nen types being involved. So we are talking about a conjured or otherwise nen enhanced pot (from beyond the grave at that) that creates nen beasts which have different abilities. However each step there in there (pot --->beast----> ability) should for the most part fit into a nen category. What you describe as in a parasite nen being a category of its own would be specialization simply because specialization is not really a nen class but rather where you dump in anything that does not fit with the rest. So you have the pot which is either conjured or nen conditioned, the beast which should be a combination of emission, manipulation, and transformation (if the beast were conjured they wouldn't even be "nen" beasts) and then the abilities of the creatures which could be as arbitrary as any other nen ability considering the limited evidence we have.

It is an interesting question whether spezialization is actually a dumping place.
Personally, i do not think so. The nen cycle indicates that all those abilities at least have one thing in common: They are far away from enahcning abilities, so every specialization user is not a natural brawler.
I see specialization as the most complex possible nen abilities and enhancement as the most simple, which is why they oppose each other but are equally near to the two 'pathes' of nen, the one along emission and the one along transmution.

I did not mean to say that a parasyte is a whole new nen class, but that the nentype of the parasyte and its abilities might differ from the one who created him.
For example, while the nenbeasts in our case are clearly the result of a conjured pot (or maybe a transmuted ordinary pot?), it might be that the results of a parasyte nentype are very different from conjured creatures.
My example was that an emitter could emit an armor onto an ordinary human which feeds on his lifeforce in exchange for superhuman strength as long as it is emitted. This would qualify as parasitic, too, but the ability of the armor, the parasyte, would be more along the lines of enhancement.

The framework in which we know nen is, as i said, very focussed on martial arts.
That means there are no scientists rigourously building classes, effects, usage and 'form' of nen, but rather people telling students how they can use it with rather mythical explanations which jsut roughly explain the line of thinking and the combat and practical aspects of it.

So it might very well be that parasytic nen has very different rules once it is created, but we never knew until now because for the user, it makes no difference, since he will use an ordinary ability like conjuration, specialization or any other and martial artists are only interested in the usage.

A professional nen exocist however might know more about how these things work. Possibly, bill is one?

 

[kkck]

It is an interesting question whether spezialization is actually a dumping place.
Personally, i do not think so. The nen cycle indicates that all those abilities at least have one thing in common: They are far away from enahcning abilities, so every specialization user is not a natural brawler.
I see specialization as the most complex possible nen abilities and enhancement as the most simple, which is why they oppose each other but are equally near to the two 'pathes' of nen, the one along emission and the one along transmution.

I did not mean to say that a parasyte is a whole new nen class, but that the nentype of the parasyte and its abilities might differ from the one who created him.
For example, while the nenbeasts in our case are clearly the result of a conjured pot (or maybe a transmuted ordinary pot?), it might be that the results of a parasyte nentype are very different from conjured creatures.
My example was that an emitter could emit an armor onto an ordinary human which feeds on his lifeforce in exchange for superhuman strength as long as it is emitted. This would qualify as parasitic, too, but the ability of the armor, the parasyte, would be more along the lines of enhancement.

The framework in which we know nen is, as i said, very focussed on martial arts.
That means there are no scientists rigourously building classes, effects, usage and 'form' of nen, but rather people telling students how they can use it with rather mythical explanations which jsut roughly explain the line of thinking and the combat and practical aspects of it.

So it might very well be that parasytic nen has very different rules once it is created, but we never knew until now because for the user, it makes no difference, since he will use an ordinary ability like conjuration, specialization or any other and martial artists are only interested in the usage.

A professional nen exocist however might know more about how these things work. Possibly, bill is one?

I don't think specialization being the dumping place is up for debate. The manga has literally said that specialization is where you throw in nen that does not fit with the rest and is not a real category.

The only way for the parasitic nen to be "conjured" would be that they are conjured as invisible and whether such a thing is possible is debatable at best. It does seem like in is enough to see the beasts in which case they should be emitted and presumably sticking to their host. That said, you can't "transmute" a pot. Transmutation is specifically changing the quality of your nen, it does not apply to physical objects. You could manipulate an object, enhance it or even use emission to impose nen on it. But transmutation does not apply at all.

I don't think the armor you suggest would be close to enhancement. You would take nen, shape it into an armor and then simply place it over something. That is all around simple emission. If instead of an armor you used it as a long range shu then it would fall more in line with enhancement though emission would still be the more significant factor in it.

It is true that there are no nen scientists as far as we know but I don't think the martial arts thing works as you say. When it comes to how nen functions the manga is very consistent across the board. It's not just martial arts with mythical explanations if the evidence we have suggests the explanations we have work that well and consistently. The exception would be specialization due to how it was defined early in the manga.

 

[shionoro]

I don't think specialization being the dumping place is up for debate. The manga has literally said that specialization is where you throw in nen that does not fit with the rest and is not a real category.

The only way for the parasitic nen to be "conjured" would be that they are conjured as invisible and whether such a thing is possible is debatable at best. It does seem like in is enough to see the beasts in which case they should be emitted and presumably sticking to their host. That said, you can't "transmute" a pot. Transmutation is specifically changing the quality of your nen, it does not apply to physical objects. You could manipulate an object, enhance it or even use emission to impose nen on it. But transmutation does not apply at all.

I don't think the armor you suggest would be close to enhancement. You would take nen, shape it into an armor and then simply place it over something. That is all around simple emission. If instead of an armor you used it as a long range shu then it would fall more in line with enhancement though emission would still be the more significant factor in it.

It is true that there are no nen scientists as far as we know but I don't think the martial arts thing works as you say. When it comes to how nen functions the manga is very consistent across the board. It's not just martial arts with mythical explanations if the evidence we have suggests the explanations we have work that well and consistently. The exception would be specialization due to how it was defined early in the manga.

The manga did not say that. It said that in the water divination test, everything aside from the 4 other principle's results is specialization.
My reasoning still stands that it is in fact as real of a nen category as the others because specialization user still have deficits and benefits as usual in the nencycle (so a specialization user is always opposed to enhancement and never, for example, inbetween conjuration and emission).

The nencycle itself is a bit shaky. For example, you can become a specialization user later in life. That means that the water divination test and the nenclasses in general are more rough estimates than something really strict. It is even said that a user can exceed the limits of his category or another if he trades in other deficits. All in all, the nenclasses are about patterns which get grouped together.And specialization users can only be logically included into the nencycle at the place they are. If they were really just a dumping place, there have to be users who are specialization but lie on other places of the nencircle, and it would not make sense then that conjuration is 40% away from manipulation instead the usual 20%. That is only logical if in fact there is a whole category between them.

_______________________

I think the martial arts explanations are 'mythical' in some ways. For example, the oath mechanics is never explained in detail. It seems to be more of a result of meditation and looking what works than anything else. It is not a case study as scientist would do it, checking exactly which limitations and oaths work and estimate how much they strenghten an ability by countless of case studies, checking brain and nenwaves and getting close to completely understand that mechanic.
The same goes for 'nen staying behind'. I think there are a lot of things which rather become legends and mystical knowledge than well studied subjects. For example, it is obviously possible in some circumstances for a 12 year old kid with to exchange his talent for shortlived superpowers.
It would be very interesting for a scientist to look whether this can be replicated. Sure, not everyone is as talented as gon and it took trauma. But it's not like it is out of question to replicate this effect to some extent, maybe being able as an enhancer to sacrifice lifetime and talent in order to slay an important enemy.
But there is no scientist and the only people who even know about it are gons friends. Other hunters will, if anything, ehar legends about it being possible. The same really goes for hisoka's nen ressurection.
So ya, i think tha in-universe, the nen explanations and models lose some rigour once you look into the finetuning and the genius applications of it.
I do not see that as a flaw of togashi's writing, because it makes absolute sense when you think about the explanations being given by martial artists.
They are pretty good for learning nen and having an emotional understanding of it, which is more important for users than understanding it in scientific terms.

That being said, some nenabilities might also be beyond just simple categorizing. After what i have said before, i think 'parasyte type' is a rought term for nenabilities which require a host. Maybe even abeganes ability could be categorized as such.

 

[Demonspeed]

I see Specialization the same way as kkck. Sure it has its own characteristics depending on the person but you can dump everything not fitting the five others in this category. When Uvo was confused by Kurapika's skills he didn't think of that(though I don't think it would have been very helpful).

Well, the vase can be conjured (I don't remember the manga saying that though) but that does not mean the beast themselves are conjured. They are made of nen, by definition they are not conjured.

There should at least be more to feeding from alluka though. Can you imagine a small little boy that has never been trained feeding something that can kill thousands upon thousands in an instant? I could buy that there is something that nanika is getting out of this but there is plenty of evidence to suggest it is not power to do its thing.

The beasts are not conjured but granting his descendants these beasts is its function, so they have been infected by the conjured pot(confirmed to be conjured in Chapter 349). The beast and their abilities can belong to any type, like the mouse and its Manipulation ability but the cause of all of this was the pot of the first king.

There should be more indeed, and I think it's one of Ai's characteristic since it's also called "Codependence of desire". It feeds on Alluka and Alluka might get something in return, but it still spreads chaos with its ability. It's a gaseous life form so I guess it needs a host to work properly or something, but I don't think it's that simple.

 

[Kefka]

Can someone explain to me what are the conditions for nen to become stronger after death?

 

[Copy Panda]

A very strong will or desire can like manifest itself as a command for your nen, from what we've understood

 

[kkck]

Well, there aren't conditions per say to making nen work after death. Based on the few cases we have seen there are a few things which we can reasonably infer though. The first would be that nen that is "imposed" over something would be the most likely for this to happen to. It is nen that is already independent to an extent and has the best chance to attach itself to something. It is why the ryodan couldn't just kill kurapika while chrollo was chained. Strong emotions are clearly a huge factor as well. This is probably what made a difference when pitou's nen took over his dead body or when hisoka gambled and had his nen bring him back.

 

[Demonspeed]

There are no real conditions, it's random, depending on the person, the conditions of his death and especially the intensity of his/her feelings I'd say.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2016 ---

About Chrollo's Skill Hunter, I remember being confused by Chrollo's Double Face at first but concluded after some time that it was the natural evolution of Skill Hunter. Since Hatsu can be refined over the years until it reaches its final form.

He said that he has new conditions to use abilities where two hands are needed, it implies that he had never stole an ability of this kind before. Since Skill Hunter is an ability allowing to steal any other ones as long as he fulfills the conditions, what do you think would happen if he were to steal Killua's Electric Nen ? I once believed that it would be impossible for him to use all the techniques, like Kanmuru but now I think there are probably other conditions to steal these kind of abilities.

 

[Copy Panda]

Wouldn't he just electrify himself though? Like, it would be usable if he could do something about the shock he receives himself, otherwise not?