Feminism

xi0

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Also, I see a lot of Hillary opponents call her ugly and point out her unattractive looks and marriage, as if that affects how she'll run the country. Trump opponents point out his unattractiveness and tan as a way to insult him while explaining why he shouldn't be a president. However, I don't understand why Hillary's marriage is brought up when Trump is the one who cheats and remarried twice.
Not to wade too far into politics, but the topic of her marriage is linked to Bill's history as a womanizer (or maybe even a rapist, depending on who you ask), and her staying with him and in some cases contributing to the defamation of his accusers. And doing this all because it was politically convenient for her, which isn't anything new with her. At least, that is the line of thinking there.
 

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But people are blaming Hillary and claiming it's because of her looks that made Bill cheat. it's all pretty fucked up. They don't care as much about the victims or accusers as they do trying to shit on Hillary.

Voting for Hillary because feminism is a joke too. When has she espoused actual feminist values? Didn't she work against Bill's accusers and defamed them? Pretty sure if Hillary was a feminist, she would be working against Bill or at least, not against the accusers and/or victims.
 

xi0

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But people are blaming Hillary and claiming it's because of her looks that made Bill cheat. it's all pretty fucked up. They don't care as much about the victims or accusers as they do trying to shit on Hillary.
Who...? Either way, that's not based on any real-world rationality.

People aren't really in a position to tell someone how they should handle their relationships, the problem is the whole affair scandal juxtaposed with how people like to characterize her campaign or "accomplishments" in politics as a woman. It doesn't look all that good IMO.
 

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This is more complicated. We do not actually know whether Bill has molested women and she seemed to trust him on it.
As far as i know, on closer investigation, only consensual affairs could be proven and that's something between Hillary and Bill.

To the feminism: Clinton was comes from a time in which feminism meant something else than it does not.
And in that time, she was in fact reliably on the progressive side. I might at: At a time in which it was harder to be progressive than it is now.
That should not be forgotten.

Naturally, it is bullshit if people who think of third wave feminism deem her a feminist. She is not. You won't hear her talking about intersectional feminism and that poor nonwhite women should unite to fight oppression. But you will still rather see her adressing feminist issues than other people would (exspecially trump).

But ya, it is inherently problematic that a woman has to play the feminist card to get elected (like obama had to play the black man card).
It is exspected from her, and she would get blamed if she would not do it.

Clinton is basically the thing that third wave feminism wants to prevent: She is a woman who had to play by the men's rules in a male dominated field and succeeded in that by being tougher than them. And subsequently, she employed the same means as her adversaries did.
Feminism wants to take the need for such a thing away.
There is a certain divide between women who had to harden themselves to survive those environments and women who blame sexism on only few women succeeding in those fields.
 

xi0

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This is more complicated. We do not actually know whether Bill has molested women and she seemed to trust him on it.
As far as i know, on closer investigation, only consensual affairs could be proven and that's something between Hillary and Bill.
I mean, the details regarding that are for another thread and another day. Like I said, people can't make someone's decision for them in regards to that, but obviously his chronic infidelity is something she didn't seem to care about, why is that? Because separating from him would have been politically inconvenient (maybe at that time). And her entire career has been about what is politically convenient and what isn't.

To the feminism: Clinton was comes from a time in which feminism meant something else than it does not.
And in that time, she was in fact reliably on the progressive side. I might at: At a time in which it was harder to be progressive than it is now.
That should not be forgotten.
Of course, being progressive meant different things, but she was still shockingly late to the party in regards to marriage equality, which contradicts her political leanings. And why is that? Because she was a Senator from a swing-state and was trying to court people on the right by appealing to their religiosity or "traditional" thought regarding something. That's not something an actual feminist would ever do. She was put in an incredibly awkward position as First Lady due to her husband's transgressions, but she wasn't necessarily diplomatic about it either. That's where her "vast right-wing conspiracy" quote comes from, and her almost tacit implication that most of the accusers were liars.

But you will still rather see her adressing feminist issues than other people would (exspecially trump).
I mean, sure. That's hardly a fair comparison in regards to this topic. But I will say that both will say they are "for women", when some actions contradict this. Albeit, more than likely way more for Trump. But of course, he has the benefit of not having a bonafide political record and being held accountable for what he says. Or the history of scrutiny that she has had.

But ya, it is inherently problematic that a woman has to play the feminist card to get elected (like obama had to play the black man card).
It is exspected from her, and she would get blamed if she would not do it.
Well, I'm not certain whether she has done this herself in her own words. But obviously the SuperPACs that support her and her campaign like to use these sort of things. And the same goes for Obama. From what I remember, Obama being black was not something that he ever emphasized really, other than fitting in with the idea of "Change" that his campaign took on. To compare, Hillary has had the whole "I'm with Her" slogan, but I don't necessarily see it as a tacit implication of feminist ideals or anything.
 
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M3J

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Who...? Either way, that's not based on any real-world rationality.

People aren't really in a position to tell someone how they should handle their relationships, the problem is the whole affair scandal juxtaposed with how people like to characterize her campaign or "accomplishments" in politics as a woman. It doesn't look all that good IMO.
I think it's Trump, but mainly his sheep supporters.

What do you mean by how the whole affair scandal juxtaposed with how people like to characterize her campaign is the problem? Her staying with Bill despite his infidelities because it's politically advantageous? I haven't seen a lot of people bring that up, just how her looks is why Bill cheated on her and shit.
@M3J
@xi0
This is more complicated. We do not actually know whether Bill has molested women and she seemed to trust him on it.
As far as i know, on closer investigation, only consensual affairs could be proven and that's something between Hillary and Bill.

To the feminism: Clinton was comes from a time in which feminism meant something else than it does not.
And in that time, she was in fact reliably on the progressive side. I might at: At a time in which it was harder to be progressive than it is now.
That should not be forgotten.

Naturally, it is bullshit if people who think of third wave feminism deem her a feminist. She is not. You won't hear her talking about intersectional feminism and that poor nonwhite women should unite to fight oppression. But you will still rather see her adressing feminist issues than other people would (exspecially trump).

But ya, it is inherently problematic that a woman has to play the feminist card to get elected (like obama had to play the black man card).
It is exspected from her, and she would get blamed if she would not do it.

Clinton is basically the thing that third wave feminism wants to prevent: She is a woman who had to play by the men's rules in a male dominated field and succeeded in that by being tougher than them. And subsequently, she employed the same means as her adversaries did.
Feminism wants to take the need for such a thing away.
There is a certain divide between women who had to harden themselves to survive those environments and women who blame sexism on only few women succeeding in those fields.
Trusting him doesn't mean much. A lot of women trust their philandering husbands won't/hasn't cheated, and yet they do, and they lie about it.


Feminism meant victim shaming? Destroying the life of someone that your husband had sex of some form with (Lewinsky)? What has she done that makes her feminist in some form?

How was she really progressive? From what I've read, Hillary was more right-wing/conservative until Bernie and his supporters forced her to be more progressive. She went from being against refugee kids from a South American country, and yet she supports Syrian refugee kids, which feels like a flip flop to cater to progressives and liberals.

But will she do anything about it, or just talk about it? Her not addressing intersectional feminism is hurting her votes, as many female feminists won't vote for her because they don't see her as supporting women of all color, just white.

I don't understand this third wave feminism though. Why would they want to prevent her from achieving success? She'd be a woman who proved she can play with the big boys and be successful. Feminists would have a field day if Hillary won, until it fizzles out when/if Hillary doesn't do much to support feminism.
 

xi0

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Her staying with Bill despite his infidelities because it's politically advantageous? I haven't seen a lot of people bring that up, just how her looks is why Bill cheated on her and shit.
Yes.

But such things have nothing to do with her as politician... It's just petty and mean. I mean, if a man's infidelity only had to do with how his partner looked, then that's saying men would never cheat with someone less attractive than their partner. And that's just patently false. And in either case, Bill's infidelity supposedly goes back decades, and they've been together for 45+ years.

When people criticize her, they're not saying that a woman should never have the choice to stay with someone who was unfaithful to him, but the circumstances regarding how extensive it appeared to be and the timing of when it came to light put her in a position where she might have compromised her own beliefs because leaving him wouldn't have been a prudent choice. And then maybe one feminist would argue that she still has total agency over her decisions, but if you think of how women talk to one another about such things...it just doesn't make much sense.

So yeah, her becoming the first woman president might look good for a feminist's cause, but it doesn't really take into account or "value" who she is as an individual, only that she's female.
 

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Yes.

But such things have nothing to do with her as politician... It's just petty and mean. I mean, if a man's infidelity only had to do with how his partner looked, then that's saying men would never cheat with someone less attractive than their partner. And that's just patently false. And in either case, Bill's infidelity supposedly goes back decades, and they've been together for 45+ years.

When people criticize her, they're not saying that a woman should never have the choice to stay with someone who was unfaithful to him, but the circumstances regarding how extensive it appeared to be and the timing of when it came to light put her in a position where she might have compromised her own beliefs because leaving him wouldn't have been a prudent choice. And then maybe one feminist would argue that she still has total agency over her decisions, but if you think of how women talk to one another about such things...it just doesn't make much sense.

So yeah, her becoming the first woman president might look good for a feminist's cause, but it doesn't really take into account or "value" who she is as an individual, only that she's female.
Exactly my point, her looks have nothing to do with her as a politician, and a lot of times neither does her husband's infidelity whenever they bring it up. If it did, then they certainly don't mention the relation between the two. Also, didn't Hillary blame his mom abusing Bill for his infidelities?

If they brought that up, then I wouldn't mind so much. But they bring up Bill being unfaithful as a way to attack her as a person, not her using him or staying with him out of convenience.

I agree with you. I don't get how feminists would defend her and call her a feminist, at all. Call me biased, but Bernie is an actual feminist, or more of a feminist than Hillary. I'm still pissed Bernie's not in the race anymore and we have someone like Hillary in the running... but then again I already forgot what makes Bernie an ally of the feminists, other than equal pay.
 

xi0

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Exactly my point, her looks have nothing to do with her as a politician, and a lot of times neither does her husband's infidelity whenever they bring it up. If it did, then they certainly don't mention the relation between the two.
It's not her husband's infidelity, it's her choice to stay with him. If neither were politicians, would the result be the same? If Clinton had no further political aspirations, would the situation be any different?

But they bring up Bill being unfaithful as a way to attack her as a person, not her using him or staying with him out of convenience.
I don't think anyone with a decent amount of brain cells left intact criticizes her for what Bill did...
 

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In terms of people's reaction, it's more her looks. I don't see people pointing out her choice to stay with him as much as they do her ugliness and why Bill cheated and etc. I was gonna say you'd be shocked, but the keyword is "decent amount of brain cells," and most of the critics have lower than decent amount.

Another reason why feminism is important - second rapist got no sentence just because the judge wanted him to have a wholesome college experience or something. He completely ignored how the victim felt... wtf? Disgusting. You'd think this is India or something.
 

xi0

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In terms of people's reaction, it's more her looks. I don't see people pointing out her choice to stay with him as much as they do her ugliness and why Bill cheated and etc. I was gonna say you'd be shocked, but the keyword is "decent amount of brain cells," and most of the critics have lower than decent amount.
Well, I tend to disregard anyone based on the crux of their argument if it's that inane. I don't see how anyone would make a comment about her looks as some sort of criticism of her as politician, let alone a person.
 

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Well, most republicans/conservatives don't seem to be about feminism, so. And before you say anything, their views on abortion should say plenty.
 

xi0

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Well, most republicans/conservatives don't seem to be about feminism, so. And before you say anything, their views on abortion should say plenty.
What does that have to do with this? I might not agree with a most conservative thoughts when it comes to social issues, but not all of them reduce someone down to whether they're ugly enough to be cheated on. If anything, you're paying attention to people with an obtuse sense of humor failing at making some sort of joke, not anything substantive.
 

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Republicans/conservative voters are usually the ones commenting on her looks, but they're in no way feminists given some of their views.... I don't know if it's sense of humor or just desperation to hate Hillary and support their party.
 

xi0

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There's definitely an element of misogyny to her detractors and her public history, but I don't think that should blind people into some sort of obligation to defend everything about her in response.
 

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It apparently does. Many "feminists" say voting for Hillary is a right step for feminism, and to not vote for her is against the idea of feminism, which is bullshit. If anything, Bernie was the better choice for feminists, not Hillary. I don't see what makes her a feminist, but neither do many feminists.

Shame many men (and even women) see feminism as a bad thing though. It's not, but some hardcore feminists and man-hating feminists are either loud or get more attention, so it's not shocking.
 

xi0

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Shame many men (and even women) see feminism as a bad thing though. It's not, but some hardcore feminists and man-hating feminists are either loud or get more attention, so it's not shocking.
The issue is the core concept has been co-opted by a loud group of people with their own agendas (not necessarily all "bad", but probably a bit ridiculous IMO)
 

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Women have made such leaps in equality over the last century, that I just think it's an on-going process. In time, I believe everything will be equal.
 

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The issue is the core concept has been co-opted by a loud group of people with their own agendas (not necessarily all "bad", but probably a bit ridiculous IMO)
I find it bad enough when they say all men must die or criticize men and hate on them. There are different kinds of feminism though, and the kind I support has to do with equality for all, like fathers being able to get custody of their kids without bias or women getting equal pay and better treatment.
Women have made such leaps in equality over the last century, that I just think it's an on-going process. In time, I believe everything will be equal.
Taking quite a long time. I mean, two teenage rapists got a light sentence or got off without a sentence because the judges were worried about how it'd affect their wellbeing or wanted them to experience college or some shit. They didn't even care about the victims or any potential victims the teenagers might prey upon.

Then I actually saw a tweet where a guy just defended Brock Turner getting out early by saying he's branded as a sexual offender for life... which isn't much given he has freedom to go after more victims if he wanted. And there's a decent chance he'll find a job and have a normal or nearly normal life. While tons of rapists see punishment, these two haven't.... and the victims' feelings weren't even taken into consideration.
 

xi0

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victims' feelings weren't even taken into consideration
I mean, regardless of the specifics you've mentioned....that's not how the justice system is supposed to work...
 
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