Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[howdydodah]

Hi haven't read much of the replies. I'll just throw my 2 cents in. Nen types can be used in conjunction to 1 or more other types. Eg. Zenos dragon dive is of mainly transmutation by transmuting the drgons property to electricity, conjuration by forming nen energy into a dragon shape and might have eztra properties/abilities added as well, emission by separating the nen energy from the users body. Another example is kurapikas chains w/c is mainly conjuration but the abilities each chains have are under different nen types I.e the heal chain is enhancement type healing. Speaking of kurapika i'd have to agree on the kuruta scarlet eyes leading to emperor time as well, bec specialist nen are abilities a nen user attains from blood or his way of life like fish to swimming and bird to flight. Scarlet eyes enhances every aspect of a kruta member from physical attributes to mental and mayybr even enable basic nen usage to non nen users. Therefore it's logical to say that it enhances every aspect of nen as well to a nen usong kuruta therefore kurapika emperoe tym.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 19, 2016 ---

A good example of really good men users are ging and silva. Ging can somewhat copy a nen ability just by digging into his nen knowledge/mastery w/c is superb his energy ouptut on the other hand is still in question(i'd put him below uvon). Silva can use enhancement and emission type attcks quite fluenttly even though he is a transmuter I.e nen energy balls and his 1 punch crater ko of cheetuh. his nen output is quite possibly on par with uvon or maybe larger but I doubt it. And of course theres zeno and kurapica chrollo as well who can incorporate sdifferent types of nen in their abilities but those 2 ging and silva are on top in my book.

 

[Kefka]

Hi haven't read much of the replies. I'll just throw my 2 cents in. Nen types can be used in conjunction to 1 or more other types. Eg. Zenos dragon dive is of mainly transmutation by transmuting the drgons property to electricity, conjuration by forming nen energy into a dragon shape and might have eztra properties/abilities added as well, emission by separating the nen energy from the users body.

Dragon Dive with electric properties? Not really, those were only some sparkles the anime added to give a nice effect. And you're confusing something, shaping your aura into something is not Conjuration, it's Transmutation. Remember the Transmutation training Biscuit gave to Gon to shape his aura into numbers from 0 to 9. Conjuration means creating, not shaping.

Dragon Dive is Transmutation (to shape the aura into a dragon) and Emission (to shoot it out from his body).

 

[howdydodah]

@Galahad, ok thnx for the info... I've always thought creating shapes from nen is conjuration I'll research that just to be sure.

 

[shionoro]

There are no real conditions, it's random, depending on the person, the conditions of his death and especially the intensity of his/her feelings I'd say.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2016, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2016 ---

About Chrollo's Skill Hunter, I remember being confused by Chrollo's Double Face at first but concluded after some time that it was the natural evolution of Skill Hunter. Since Hatsu can be refined over the years until it reaches its final form.

He said that he has new conditions to use abilities where two hands are needed, it implies that he had never stole an ability of this kind before. Since Skill Hunter is an ability allowing to steal any other ones as long as he fulfills the conditions, what do you think would happen if he were to steal Killua's Electric Nen ? I once believed that it would be impossible for him to use all the techniques, like Kanmuru but now I think there are probably other conditions to steal these kind of abilities.

I know it is an old post, but:

I think that chrollo is able to steal every ability. Even abilities which have severe limitations. However, i think to utilize them, chrollo has to understand them. This is easy with normal abilities like shooting nen bullets or conjuring objects, but gets harder the more complex the character of the person he steals from is or the creation of their nen.

I think if chrollo, for example, was to steal kurapika's ability, then he would have to respect the limitations when he uses it and would similarly feel the backlash if he doesnt.
If he stole franklin's ability, then it would not be quite as strong as if franklin with his cut off fingers used it.
So i think he can steal the ability, but without understanding it, he cannot use it very well. If he was to conjure netero's hatsu for example, then he probably would not be able to figure out which punch does what until he would undergo a long training about it.

I think this is why chrollo targets abilities which conjure rather simple objects or manipulate others.
Abilities which just come in handy, but don't need a long time to master once he understood the character of the nenuser.

For me, chrollo is a jack of all trades but he would have trouble using the really sophisticated abilities like deep purple, biscuits massage orstuff with severe limitations well. As for Killuah's ability, i agree that he would need to immunize himself to electricity to use it first.
I think abilities like Meleoron's god's accomplice are perfect for someone like chrollo.
It is not hard to use and just takes a little experimentation to really understand what you can and can't do.

The thought that someone like chrollo with his disposal of different weapons and effects could turn invisible and apply anything he wants to anyone is pretty scary, too,

 

[uberfayt]

What do you guys think of the following ? :

For Chrollo, when a user to whom he stole an ability dies, that ability gets deleted. Whowever in the case of "Sun and Moon", the ability remained on the book even when the user died, Which is a case of "nen getting intense after death". Now here is my question :

If it is Chrollo's ability now, meaning it gets activated using his own nen and that it has nothing to do anymore with its original user, then how in blazes did it recognize that it's original owner died, resulting in it becoming stronger and remaining in the book ? Hence we get a paradox if we suppose that a stolen ability has nothing to do with it's original owner anymore.

Now, let us suppose that a stolen ability in Chrollo's book still has some link with its original user. This means that if he dies and fullfills the right conditions, his nen will get stronger, and as a result the ability somehow realizes it and gets boosted as well, while remaining in the book. In the case of sun and moon, its user is still dead, so nothing forces the ability to cease being strong.

 

[Copy Panda]

Hatsu is a unique expression of ones life energy. That means that it continues to be that expression even when stolen. Chrollo uses his nen to activate a stolen technique from the book; it's still stolen. It's not his property, just for him to use. That's why the abilities typically disappear from his book when the user dies. Most hatsu don't take a sudden turn for the spicy after death, typically. But it is also why a Hatsu can become stronger when the user passes away; the hatsu as life energy being fueled with emotion exists because of the user, and for the user, and if strong enough, will carry out the will of the user.

 

[shionoro]

For Chrollo, when a user to whom he stole an ability dies, that ability gets deleted. Whowever in the case of "Sun and Moon", the ability remained on the book even when the user died, Which is a case of "nen getting intense after death". Now here is my question :

If it is Chrollo's ability now, meaning it gets activated using his own nen and that it has nothing to do anymore with its original user, then how in blazes did it recognize that it's original owner died, resulting in it becoming stronger and remaining in the book ? Hence we get a paradox if we suppose that a stolen ability has nothing to do with it's original owner anymore.

Now, let us suppose that a stolen ability in Chrollo's book still has some link with its original user. This means that if he dies and fullfills the right conditions, his nen will get stronger, and as a result the ability somehow realizes it and gets boosted as well, while remaining in the book. In the case of sun and moon, its user is still dead, so nothing forces the ability to cease being strong.

I imagine it like this: Chrollo's hatsu is that of a thief. This means he steals abilities, but he never truly owns them.
They still recognize their original user.
Usually, a nenability vanishes with the owner of it.
However, in case of nenstayingbehind, the unique case holds true that the ability stays over, even getting stronger in some cases, so chrollo, who has stolen it, still can use it at his disposal

 

[uberfayt]

I imagine it like this: Chrollo's hatsu is that of a thief. This means he steals abilities, but he never truly owns them.

Yeah that's what i also think. there is still a link to the original user.

Hatsu is a unique expression of ones life energy. That means that it continues to be that expression even when stolen. Chrollo uses his nen to activate a stolen technique from the book; it's still stolen. It's not his property, just for him to use. That's why the abilities typically disappear from his book when the user dies. Most hatsu don't take a sudden turn for the spicy after death, typically. But it is also why a Hatsu can become stronger when the user passes away; the hatsu as life energy being fueled with emotion exists because of the user, and for the user, and if strong enough, will carry out the will of the user.

Yup, I agree.

We know that if somebody died with strong feelings of hatred or grudge, the nen might become intense. If it does, it has to go towards the target of those feelings. What if in the case of Chrollo for some reason the stronger nen of the dead leader of meteor city got affixed to his stolen ability (Sun & Moon), resulting in it remaining on the book, and becoming stronger.

Edit: I would like to add, since we agree that more or less the link of a stolen ability with its original user is that it is, well, "stolen", this could mean that there is some form of nen affixed on the victim, serving as this link we speak about. Do you think a "nen remover" can cleanse this "stolen" status from the victim ? Thus giving them back their stolen ability ?

 

[shionoro]

Yeah that's what i also think. there is still a link to the original user.



Yup, I agree.

We know that if somebody died with strong feelings of hatred or grudge, the nen might become intense. If it does, it has to go towards the target of those feelings. What if in the case of Chrollo for some reason the stronger nen of the dead leader of meteor city got affixed to his stolen ability (Sun & Moon), resulting in it remaining on the book, and becoming stronger.

Edit: I would like to add, since we agree that more or less the link of a stolen ability with its original user is that it is, well, "stolen", this could mean that there is some form of nen affixed on the victim, serving as this link we speak about. Do you think a "nen remover" can cleanse this "stolen" status from the victim ? Thus giving them back their stolen ability ?

I think it would be a definitive possibility that a very capable nenremover can do it, but it is no sure bet. With all the limitations on chrollo's book, he probably made sure that it at least is not feasible for most of his targets to do that. He could however also threaten targets that he will come back and simply kill them if
they dont obey. After all, they are safe from the spider as long as their abilities have use for chrollo.

I think that his nonownership is further evidenced by the fact that chrollo cannot tweak the abilities in the book.
They are not his. For example, it should not be very hard to tweak the order stamp ability so that the stamped puppets can simply kill humans if you are capable.
But since the original owner didnt want to do that, so can't chrollo.
Elseways i would be sure chrollo is capable enough to do such a change if he is able to chang ehis hatsu with the bookmark, which is not an easy task.

 

[Copy Panda]

good points, was going to mention 'cant modify abilities' as well

 

[Demonspeed]

Hatsu is a unique expression of ones life energy. That means that it continues to be that expression even when stolen. Chrollo uses his nen to activate a stolen technique from the book; it's still stolen. It's not his property, just for him to use. That's why the abilities typically disappear from his book when the user dies. Most hatsu don't take a sudden turn for the spicy after death, typically. But it is also why a Hatsu can become stronger when the user passes away; the hatsu as life energy being fueled with emotion exists because of the user, and for the user, and if strong enough, will carry out the will of the user.

I don't really agree with that. He said it himself, "The thrill of Skill Hunter is to understand the abilities, mind of the previous user and makes it his own". He gets interested in it, steals, analyzes the ability, tries to understand the mind of the original user and uses it his own way.

I see the disappearance of the ability as a condition. Stealing abilities is something very powerful, which is why there are so many for Skill Hunter.

Chrollo has many abilties but his fight against Hisoka implied that he has not stolen every kind of abilities. He got more conditions to respect because it was the first time he had stolen an ability requiring the use of both hands. If he steals an ability like Killua's, I think he will get new conditions allowing him to use it. I think Skill Hunter is incomplete and that we'll see him refine and complete it. Double Face is an example of its evolution.

 

[Copy Panda]

But there's a difference between modifying a stolen technique, and modifying the technique (his own) that utilizes stolen techniques

 

[uberfayt]

Let us suppose that Chrollo imposed the condition "the ability disappears if the original user dies". This makes us wonder again. What would've happened if Chrollo never put such condition ? Maybe the stolen ability would've disappeared regardless...and personally I think it would have. In fact, I think the original conditions of "Skill hunter" (those dealing with the actual theft) are exactly those mentioned in Volume 12 (or 13), which are :

1. He must witness the Nen ability in action with his eyes.
2. He must ask about the ability and be answered by the victim.
3. His victim's palm must touch the handprint on the cover of Bandit's Secret.
4. All of the above must be done within an hour.

Then there are of course the conditions on the book, (he has to always hold it in his right hand and open it to the ability's page).

As one can see, there is nothing about when the original user dies. I actually think that it is a consequence of how Chrollo's ability works rather than a condition he put, meaning that even Chrollo may not have been aware what would have happened if one of it's victims died. When it happened for the first time, he then learned that the ability disappears.
Same with what happened when the victim got a stronger nen afer death, somthg that Chrollo experienced for the first time, and never actually considered it before.

 

[Copy Panda]

uh tbh i think they just can't use their ability, it's not like he steals their entire nen or ability to use and sense it. if the person dies, their nen itself can power up, and the ability is made by them and so linked to them, which is why it powered up

 

[Spirit]

Perhaps Nen can be tempered through death? Like reaching some sort of new evolutionary stage?

 

[Demonspeed]

But there's a difference between modifying a stolen technique, and modifying the technique (his own) that utilizes stolen techniques

Spoiler

Let us suppose that Chrollo imposed the condition "the ability disappears if the original user dies". This makes us wonder again. What would've happened if Chrollo never put such condition ? Maybe the stolen ability would've disappeared regardless...and personally I think it would have. In fact, I think the original conditions of "Skill hunter" (those dealing with the actual theft) are exactly those mentioned in Volume 12 (or 13), which are :

1. He must witness the Nen ability in action with his eyes.
2. He must ask about the ability and be answered by the victim.
3. His victim's palm must touch the handprint on the cover of Bandit's Secret.
4. All of the above must be done within an hour.

Then there are of course the conditions on the book, (he has to always hold it in his right hand and open it to the ability's page).

As one can see, there is nothing about when the original user dies. I actually think that it is a consequence of how Chrollo's ability works rather than a condition he put, meaning that even Chrollo may not have been aware what would have happened if one of it's victims died. When it happened for the first time, he then learned that the ability disappears.
Same with what happened when the victim got a stronger nen afer death, somthg that Chrollo experienced for the first time, and never actually considered it before.

So there are conditions to steal, and conditions to use. The conditions to steal an ability are always the same, but the conditions to use them can vary depending on the ability and that's how they develop their abiliies. Order Stamp for abilities requiring the use of two hands and something else for abilities like Killua's I guess.

Now that I think about it, Leol who is the same type of Specialist also can't use a borrowed one if the user dies.

 

[Spirit]

So there are conditions to steal, and conditions to use. The conditions to steal an ability are always the same, but the conditions to use them can vary depending on the ability and that's how they develop their abiliies. Order Stamp for abilities requiring the use of two hands and something else for abilities like Killua's I guess.

Now that I think about it, Leol who is the same type of Specialist also can't use a borrowed one if the user dies.

So could it be summed up like this?:
Nen is a universal force that affects everyone in it, so it's particular possibilities and constraints are subjective to the individual?

 

[uberfayt]

Spoiler

So there are conditions to steal, and conditions to use. The conditions to steal an ability are always the same, but the conditions to use them can vary depending on the ability and that's how they develop their abiliies. Order Stamp for abilities requiring the use of two hands and something else for abilities like Killua's I guess.

Now that I think about it, Leol who is the same type of Specialist also can't use a borrowed one if the user dies.

Yes, I agree. In fact, from what we have discussed, we can present the following (vulgarized) recipe to develop a hatsu :

1. Have a vague idea of the theme of the ability and some image about the final product.
2. Define the process of activation, which can be quite straightforward but far from easy (meaning a basic usage of one or more of the 6 categories of hatsu).
3. Add some special effects which obey a certain set of rules and laws, in order to balance the ability and make it actually work.

After the ability is successfully created, the user starts experimenting with it and may find some natural additional rules and properties imposed by the ability itself (especially for those complex ones), which the user never actually considered setting (though he could be aware that some particular consequences may exist).

For example, Killua needing to charge himself with actual electricity is a direct consequence on how his ability works, not a rule he imposed.
The fact that "crazy slot"'s clown talks and speaks is also smthg proper to the ability itself.
Of course stolen abilities disappearing from Chrollo's book after the original user died. Also Leol's case.
Abengane's conjured nen beasts which act by its own free will. etc...

Note : Point 3 needs to be elaborated even further. It needs to separate between normal rules for the ability and "vows and limitations" which serve to boost its power. Also we never got to see how exactly one defines the rules, it seems enough to just set them mentally and resolve the self to follow them.

So could it be summed up like this?:
Nen is a universal force that affects everyone in it, so it's particular possibilities and constraints are subjective to the individual?

Pretty much yes. But we have to be careful about the terminology : Nen as a concept includes multiple principles. The principle which is proper to the individual is Hatsu, which leads to special abilities.

uh tbh i think they just can't use their ability, it's not like he steals their entire nen or ability to use and sense it. if the person dies, their nen itself can power up, and the ability is made by them and so linked to them, which is why it powered up

True, that's also what I think. However we can agree that it happened for the first time for Chrollo through "Sun and Moon", from his explanation to Hisoka (unless he was lying).

 

[shionoro]

Yes, I agree. In fact, from what we have discussed, we can present the following (vulgarized) recipe to develop a hatsu :

1. Have a vague idea of the theme of the ability and some image about the final product.
2. Define the process of activation, which can be quite straightforward but far from easy (meaning a basic usage of one or more of the 6 categories of hatsu).
3. Add some special effects which obey a certain set of rules and laws, in order to balance the ability and make it actually work.

After the ability is successfully created, the user starts experimenting with it and may find some natural additional rules and properties imposed by the ability itself (especially for those complex ones), which the user never actually considered setting (though he could be aware that some particular consequences may exist).

For example, Killua needing to charge himself with actual electricity is a direct consequence on how his ability works, not a rule he imposed.
The fact that "crazy slot"'s clown talks and speaks is also smthg proper to the ability itself.
Of course stolen abilities disappearing from Chrollo's book after the original user died. Also Leol's case.
Abengane's conjured nen beasts which act by its own free will. etc...

Note : Point 3 needs to be elaborated even further. It needs to separate between normal rules for the ability and "vows and limitations" which serve to boost its power. Also we never got to see how exactly one defines the rules, it seems enough to just set them mentally and resolve the self to follow them.



Pretty much yes. But we have to be careful about the terminology : Nen as a concept includes multiple principles. The principle which is proper to the individual is Hatsu, which leads to special abilities.



True, that's also what I think. However we can agree that it happened for the first time for Chrollo through "Sun and Moon", from his explanation to Hisoka (unless he was lying).

I already wrote it somewhere in this thread, but i agree: Yes, i think the vow and limitation are mentally, quasi autosuggestion.
This autosuggestion is so strong that it can actually kill you if you dont obey it.

Nen is all about feeling. If you feel uneasy with your ability, you can hardly use it, and if you are afraid, same thing (see kastro fight).

Hatsu is something that has to resemble your body and spirit in order for you to being proficient in your usage.
Your hatsu has to be so 'cozy' to you that it become part of your body.
That's why izunabi told kurapika to carry arround a chain and even eat and sleep while carrying it, so it would come natural to him to think of a chain in his hand.
For enhancers, this is probably the easiest task, because their personality implies just hitting hard, plain an dsimple, most of the time.
For specialists, it gets interesting. They have rather refined personalities and origin story and thus have complex abilities.

But it is the same for many abilities, exspecially when it comes to limitations.
We know a limitation gets stronger the more limiting it is.
I would suppose that this 'limit' factor is decided by how limiting it actually feels for the nenuser.
It is like some kind of ritual. Your inner resolve gets stronger and stronger the more you invest into your ability, until you can finally pull it off.
That is what makes you stronger then.

And i agree that we have to separate conditions from limitation.
Conditions are things needed in order for an ability to work, oath and restriction or for it to get stronger.

Kurapika could definitely use his restricted chains on other people if he had not restricted em, but guys like uborgin could probably break the chain if he hadnt strenghtened it.

Conditions usually involved what you need to pull your ability off.
Chrollo needs a lot of things, but let's follow my theory here that hatsu is partially autoconditioning your body to use nen the exact way you want it to:

He needs to see the ability in action, he needs to ask about how it works and get answer from the user, he needs the user to touch his book and it has to happen within a short time and then he has to hold the book open on the right page in his right hand.

I think those conditions can easily be deciphered: He has to see and get explanation about the ability to help him understand how the nen has to work for him to replicate it, to further help him doing that he needs to feel the users natural nenflow on his book.
The condition that the book has to be opened at the right page helps his body to remember the ability it should use and not get confused, so it stabilizes him.

I do think that if chrollo was an even more talented nenuser than he is, he could probably leave out some of these conditions (like gin can just naturally).
But that is the least possible way for chrollo to steal something.
I would also assume that if Killuah was even more talented than he is, he could do his thing without charing up.

I think hatsu is a lot about what you personally need to unleash your hidden potential.
In chrollo's case, he runs totally on ratio and understanding.
In Feitans case, he needs pain which enables him to activate pain packer.

Now about oath and limitations: These things are there to higher the stake and to multiply your power and resolve.
Kurapika autosuggests himself in a way that his body is absolutely convinced that it has to give it all when a spider appears because his nen got modelled in a way that lets it focus completely on that task and even kills kurapika if he ever sways from his goal.

Even a completely normal person would fight hell of a lot better if he fought his sworn arc enemy who he has vowed to defeat while having also sworn to suicide if his thirst for revenge shall ever weaken.
It wouldnt enable him to do things he could not do before tho, just strenghten the resolve. Someone who cannot swordfight still wont be able to do it.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Think Chrollo will develop more bookmarks in the future?