With OP, Luffy and Nami is quite possible though. Oda doesn't care for relationships, but you could tell there might be something between the two, or something might happen. I feel Natsu-Lucy is similar to that as well, but with little to no development for the most part.
But again, most pairings in the manga can be solidified with proper focus, without looking like an asspull unless Mashima switches it around. Like, instead of Natsu-Lucy we somehow get Loki-Lucy or Natsu-Brandish. That'd be odd as hell
I don't have much of a problem with romance in FT from a story stand point, although shipping can get a little out of hand with the fandom.
That said romance isn't a big theme in FT. Best you could get really is some minor details. It's not a shoujo where each little bit of progress is going to take chapters to establish and portray. FT romance should be largely off paneled. If a couple all of a sudden happens, I won't consider it random. Even if the characters are mains. It's not something I'm going to hold Hiro to any standard for.
NALU is adorable.
JERZA is sexy and angst.
GAJEVY is okay.
But GRUVIA is....meh...forced...i have no feelings for these two. Juvia's Character is solely for gray and without him she's boring and bland and ..uninteresting?..and it's idk...not appealing.
I don't have much of a problem with romance in FT from a story stand point, although shipping can get a little out of hand with the fandom.
That said romance isn't a big theme in FT. Best you could get really is some minor details. It's not a shoujo where each little bit of progress is going to take chapters to establish and portray. FT romance should be largely off paneled. If a couple all of a sudden happens, I won't consider it random. Even if the characters are mains. It's not something I'm going to hold Hiro to any standard for.
Sure and I agree largely with the fact it should be off panel, but when writing a story it seems tacked on if you literally just throw ships in for extra emotional impact. So therefore usually what the most well received Shonen have done is not focus on them at all, or focus on them but let it happen more naturally over time Like FMA for example ( just an example, I am sure there are better). Obviously in general I would never recommend someone a Shonen series for romance, mainly because there is usually other series that do it better outside of the genre.
The fandom is responsible for a lot of the hate for shipping in FT for sure, but it's also the way Hiro writes stuff too. For example while Zeref's relationship with Mavis has allowed for a lot of humanization for him, it has also made Zeref lose a lot of presence as well imo. In fact many of the fights this arc have had shipping as a main point to the fights. While I think having emotion in fights is good, and obviously one way to invoke said emotion is by putting ones loved ones in danger, I also feel he almost allows the characters to get away with murder (ass pulls) due to wanting to keep the ship alive. It's a matter of opinion of course, but to me I have always been of the mind set that if you cannot do romance right don't do it all. I am not saying it has to be perfect, but at least not have every single character have one and don't let it affect fights. FT's strengths have always been Great art/character designs, fun world, diverse abilities (though most Shonen have this), and some really funny humor at times. I feel it should stick to that rather than romance where it's imo "ok" at best.
Sure and I agree largely with the fact it should be off panel, but when writing a story it seems tacked on if you literally just throw ships in for extra emotional impact. So therefore usually what the most well received Shonen have done is not focus on them at all, or focus on them but let it happen more naturally over time Like FMA for example ( just an example, I am sure there are better). Obviously in general I would never recommend someone a Shonen series for romance, mainly because there is usually other series that do it better outside of the genre.
The fandom is responsible for a lot of the hate for shipping in FT for sure, but it's also the way Hiro writes stuff too. For example while Zeref's relationship with Mavis has allowed for a lot of humanization for him, it has also made Zeref lose a lot of presence as well imo. In fact many of the fights this arc have had shipping as a main point to the fights. While I think having emotion in fights is good, and obviously one way to invoke said emotion is by putting ones loved ones in danger, I also feel he almost allows the characters to get away with murder (ass pulls) due to wanting to keep the ship alive. It's a matter of opinion of course, but to me I have always been of the mind set that if you cannot do romance right don't do it all. I am not saying it has to be perfect, but at least not have every single character have one and don't let it affect fights. FT's strengths have always been Great art/character designs, fun world, diverse abilities (though most Shonen have this), and some really funny humor at times. I feel it should stick to that rather than romance where it's imo "ok" at best.
Well I think a lot of romance is thrown in for extra effect, kinda like how Hollywood will throw in a quick romance and sex scene in some movies; when really it could've been left out. I agree FT hasn't nailed romance at all, nor is it a big thing, and is very much bigger among the fandom. And to your point about better received shounen - I can't disagree there either. For FT, I think if Hiro had done a bit better with it, romance could be a nice part of the series. When there are themes of bonds, and power in feelings, these could tie in quite easily with romance (I concede it could be cringe).
Zeref is a weird one because he was hyped to be all things evil, but when we meet him on Tenrou it wasn't really like that. I don't really think Zervis impacted on Zeref's character much, since that was done rather well to me (and I don't like Zervis).
My standard for romance is a little different from yours... "Does the romance/relationship improve the story in any way?" If no, then it should be left out.
As for FT's strong points - I agree with art/characters/world etc > romance. However since romance is fairly minor in comparison, it doesn't really effect the story for me. It's basically a fanservice, imo. I would like them left out of fights definitely. I had hoped that ships/pairings would happen after the war, like Gray said, but they've already had their panel time with Gruvia, Gale, and Jerza.
NALU is adorable.
JERZA is sexy and angst.
GAJEVY is okay.
But GRUVIA is....meh...forced...i have no feelings for these two. Juvia's Character is solely for gray and without him she's boring and bland and ..uninteresting?..and it's idk...not appealing.
Personally, I feel like all of the major pairings have an appeal for everyone; however, I will say, with the rationale you are applying against Gruvia/Juvia, couldn't the same argument be made for Levy? I don't dislike her, but aside from translating a few things, she hasn't done much for the plot.
But GRUVIA is....meh...forced...i have no feelings for these two. Juvia's Character is solely for gray and without him she's boring and bland and ..uninteresting?..and it's idk...not appealing.
How is it forced though? I can get where you're coming from by saying that her character revolves around Gray (which, sadly is true), but saying the ship is forced is far from the truth.
Juvia has a legitimate reason to love Gray since he's the one who brought sunshine to her life and stopped the rain in her life.
Also, the events revolving Silver and her deciding to give up her love for him is the most selfless act anyone in a ship this series has done.
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There's also this which imo, made this ship seem more than just comedic relief to me.
Well I think a lot of romance is thrown in for extra effect, kinda like how Hollywood will throw in a quick romance and sex scene in some movies; when really it could've been left out. I agree FT hasn't nailed romance at all, nor is it a big thing, and is very much bigger among the fandom. And to your point about better received shounen - I can't disagree there either. For FT, I think if Hiro had done a bit better with it, romance could be a nice part of the series. When there are themes of bonds, and power in feelings, these could tie in quite easily with romance (I concede it could be cringe).
Zeref is a weird one because he was hyped to be all things evil, but when we meet him on Tenrou it wasn't really like that. I don't really think Zervis impacted on Zeref's character much, since that was done rather well to me (and I don't like Zervis).
My standard for romance is a little different from yours... "Does the romance/relationship improve the story in any way?" If no, then it should be left out.
As for FT's strong points - I agree with art/characters/world etc > romance. However since romance is fairly minor in comparison, it doesn't really effect the story for me. It's basically a fanservice, imo. I would like them left out of fights definitely. I had hoped that ships/pairings would happen after the war, like Gray said, but they've already had their panel time with Gruvia, Gale, and Jerza.
Fair enough and i agree mostly with what you are saying tbh. I should clarify perhaps with my "Does the romance/relationship improve the story in any way?" If no, then it should be left out" comment i made. I am fine with romance being put in even if it does not affect the story majorly, it's more that i feel it should get the proper time it needs to develop into something that is believable and wraps up the characters relationships with each other. Obviously no shonen or almost any media romance in general is really completely realistic of course, but when characters start to be affected by the romance yet the romance is rather up and down on whether it is good or not i feel that is when i get annoyed. This happens a decent bit in FT imo, in other words i feel FT suffers from adding in too much shallow romance and also not developing it enough, but i get your point for sure.
I agree with Gruvia being forced early on, as Juvia was really pressed for Gray because he stopped her endless rain. But to me it's more bearable and likable now since he acknowledged her feelings and is more responsive to her now. So it's cooly too me better now then in the early arcs. Natsu and Lucy just have alot of fanservice moments right now but Lucy is starting to show her caring side towards Natsu to the point it can be considered love in a small sense, less and less platonic. If any ship regressed I would say Jerza; not because of anything they've done to set them back, just off the strength the screentime they get is so rare because Jellal is always ducked off.
While I can respect your opinion on this even though I disagree, the point of my post was to ask whether the NaLu pairing is the sole reason for Lisanna's character to be treated the way she is... not in regard to her being apart of any ship. And they've had way less development. She just tells him that she wants to marry him when they grow up and also hugs him when she returns from Edolas. There hasn't been any other moment between them, the stuff in Tartaros isn't really a ship moment.
Also, as this is an ecchi manga... you know full well that if NaLi was the shipping Hiro had gone with, he would do the fan service stuff with them too.
Although I respect your opinion, I disagree with NaLu even being a good pairing.
Again this is my opinion, and my post was never directed towards you, so if you take any offense, then my bad.
But my point of view on this topic still remains...
As of last chapter, Lucy's actions and denial has really dropped my expectations of that pairing.
The fanservice with tits and boobs and asses were already bad enough. I spent like half an episode watching their sex jokes when the anime still aired.
But even though I dislike the fanservice, I don't like how the pairing is treated either.
Like I said, Lucy's faith in Natsu is sometimes ridiculous, especially since Lucy passed out and Dimaria was the one who actually saw Natsu turn END.
Lucy should have been able to sense that Natsu is not acting like himself lately (because she was there when Erza stopped the fight between END Natsu and Gray).
But Lucy didn't even take into consideration the possibility that Natsu has changed for the worse.
Gruvia is forced? No. This is a pairing that went from an absolute joke to (practically) canon in 500+ chapters, not 2. We got to see the amelioration and growth in their relationship throughout the series on panel, step by step. And they aren't even done yet. Newsflash: a relationship consists of two people, i.e. Gruvia isn't just about Juvia. Hiro Mashima has been showcasing she is Gray's happiness and future. Something he's longed for and needs to complete his story. Gruvia has some of the most selfless moments in the series, including a double suicide attempt due to the pair not wanting to harm the other, as well as their mutual feelings.
But if you want to go there, can't really say the same for some of the others. Gajevy being a prime example, which was mainly off paneled (especially Gajeel's side) and arguably came out of no where starting in the S-class arc. When did Gajeel fall for Levy? People love to talk crap about Juvia and her being Gray-centered, but have they looked at Levy? Double standards everywhere. Jerza? Nice history, but has been lacking for hundreds of chapters now. Jellal hasn't gotten passed his regrets. NaLu? Static. I don't see a change in this relationship. They've always cared, cried for, and protected each other. Where is the romantic progression? Lucy outright denying she loves Natsu in the latest chapter? Every pairing has flaws (yes, including Gruvia), so before you rag on one and praise another, take that into consideration.
People are drawn to certain ships for various reasons, and they won't appeal to everyone. Even with those opinions, it is ludacris to deny canon and facts from the manga.
If anybody cares for my opinion on this, then I think that Gruvia's development went from nothing to something because:
1.) Juvia's obsession was unhealthy and was killing her from the inside... so being the nice guy that Gray is, he gives Juvia more attention because she is his nakama and guild mate after all.
2.) Juvia was always stalking him, so he practically had no other choice but to make the best of the situation and create a less awkward environment between the two (and for the sake of the entire guild)
3.) Mashima kind of forced it on the two because that's what the fans wanted.
There are plenty of people that Juvia could have been shipped with. Same with Gray.
Juvia always had Lyon after her, so she couldn't possibly be alone.
Gray was already attracting females before Juvia came into the picture in Phantom Lord Arc. So same could be said for him.
I don't like the pairing Gruvia either, but if it happens, I'll accept it (doesn't mean I'll support it... I'll still hate/dislike it just as much).
But I'll be sensible enough to realize that's what the majority of the fans want and that's what Mashima wants. So that's what the story is gonna be.
I don't think that Gruvia is the problem, Juvia is BECAUSE of Gruvia. People just start to dislike Gruvia because they don't like how Juvia behaves. I mean, Gray and Juvia had quite a lovely first meeting, he was the one who made her rain go away, he showed her the sun, therefore, he showed her the light she has never seen before. So, it makes perfect sense that she would fall for him, but the thing is, she let love consume her and made her worse. I mean, back when Juvia first joined the guild, she just wanted to be with Gray, but then time passed by and she realized, she loved to be in a guild where everybody care, respect and love each other. So much that she would even sacrify herself for them
She rather got hurt than to see Cana hurt, whom she's just met not too long ago.
Because she loved everyone, not just Gray, butEVERYONE
Reading the manga now, do you see Juvia says something even remotely close to what she's said before? Her life basically revolves around Gray now, she literally cannot be happy without him, I mean come on.
Just look at her, her rain WAS FUCKING BACK because Gray left her, if Natsu&co. didn't find her earlier, she'd have dropped dead because she caught such a high fever. She looked desperate, she saw illusions, she couldn't even have enough strength to mutter a greeting before she passed out.
And even after that, all she could talk about was Gray, not even one word about how the other have been. NOT EVEN ONE
So, where was the Juvia that some of us (me for example) know and love? Where was the Juvia that loves and cares about her guildmates and not just Gray? Where was the Juvia who is concern about other people than Gray?
When was the last time we see them talking normally like this? GMG? Is "Gajeel-kun" still Juvia's best friend?
Can you see the obvious change in attitude? The same Juvia was happy and touched that Lisanna wanted to be her partner is now complaining about how she has to be in the same team with Lisanna? (Granted, she's Lisanna....but still).
Where did the Juvia that could share her insecurities with Lucy go? Where did the Juvia that adored Lucy's love for FT and wished to be a part of it go? Why did we have this Juvia who roasted Lucy for wearing skimpy clothes, even Natsu&Happy don't talk to Lucy like that. I know this is more a comedic panel, but the old Juvia could never be this mean to Lucy.
And that's not even the end, there's so much more.
You see, Juvia has changed completely, but she's not moving forward, she's moving backward. Instead of being a lovable awkward girl, she's became an obsessed with love girl. But that even damage her relationship with Gray, Gray even has a duty to give her an answer after the war. After stalking him for so long, she somehow pushes him into a corner and now he has to acknowledge her feelings and even expected to return it. Many times he rejected her, many times he told her "No", heck, even after killing herself all Gray has to say to her was this
Jeez, "more seriously", that means he has never considered to love her back before, he didn't even think she was serious about her love for him despite how many times she had said that.
So, Gray never actually harbored any feelings for Juvia, she just happens to be in love with him and stalks him, and now because of that, Gray has to give her an answer. That is why some people think it's forced, it's like begging your parents for money, the longer you beg, the easier they'll hand it to you because they've had enough of your whining. I know this comparison is demeaning, but this is how Gruvia feels like for me and many others. Yes, a relationship needs 2 people, but if you're invading one's personal zone repeatedly, they'll soon realize that they just can't do anything without having your face in front of them to see. Same case with Gray, you could say that Gray spends lots of time with Juvia because he likes her and all, but it's because she keeps popping up that he just...accepts it, you know? And so, Juvia became a part of Gray's life because he was tired of avoiding her rather than touched of her unconditional love. If Gray was to declare his love for her now, it'll feel more like pity than having actual feelings because she just fake died. So, I say this for me and others I think are feeling the same, the reason why I think Juvia ruins the Gruvia ship therefore it's forced and not good for both Gray and Juvia
(.....btw, if we're going suicide)
.....I don't think Lucy has romantic feelings for herself but alright, you do you
I don't think that Gruvia is the problem, Juvia is BECAUSE of Gruvia. People just start to dislike Gruvia because they don't like how Juvia behaves. I mean, Gray and Juvia had quite a lovely first meeting, he was the one who made her rain go away, he showed her the sun, therefore, he showed her the light she has never seen before. So, it makes perfect sense that she would fall for him, but the thing is, she let love consume her and made her worse. I mean, back when Juvia first joined the guild, she just wanted to be with Gray, but then time passed by and she realized, she loved to be in a guild where everybody care, respect and love each other. So much that she would even sacrify herself for them
She rather got hurt than to see Cana hurt, whom she's just met not too long ago.
Because she loved everyone, not just Gray, butEVERYONE
Reading the manga now, do you see Juvia says something even remotely close to what she's said before? Her life basically revolves around Gray now, she literally cannot be happy without him, I mean come on.
Just look at her, her rain WAS FUCKING BACK because Gray left her, if Natsu&co. didn't find her earlier, she'd have dropped dead because she caught such a high fever. She looked desperate, she saw illusions, she couldn't even have enough strength to mutter a greeting before she passed out.
And even after that, all she could talk about was Gray, not even one word about how the other have been. NOT EVEN ONE
So, where was the Juvia that some of us (me for example) know and love? Where was the Juvia that loves and cares about her guildmates and not just Gray? Where was the Juvia who is concern about other people than Gray?
When was the last time we see them talking normally like this? GMG? Is "Gajeel-kun" still Juvia's best friend?
Can you see the obvious change in attitude? The same Juvia was happy and touched that Lisanna wanted to be her partner is now complaining about how she has to be in the same team with Lisanna? (Granted, she's Lisanna....but still).
Where did the Juvia that could share her insecurities with Lucy go? Where did the Juvia that adored Lucy's love for FT and wished to be a part of it go? Why did we have this Juvia who roasted Lucy for wearing skimpy clothes, even Natsu&Happy don't talk to Lucy like that. I know this is more a comedic panel, but the old Juvia could never be this mean to Lucy.
And that's not even the end, there's so much more.
You see, Juvia has changed completely, but she's not moving forward, she's moving backward. Instead of being a lovable awkward girl, she's became an obsessed with love girl. But that even damage her relationship with Gray, Gray even has a duty to give her an answer after the war. After stalking him for so long, she somehow pushes him into a corner and now he has to acknowledge her feelings and even expected to return it. Many times he rejected her, many times he told her "No", heck, even after killing herself all Gray has to say to her was this
Jeez, "more seriously", that means he has never considered to love her back before, he didn't even think she was serious about her love for him despite how many times she had said that.
So, Gray never actually harbored any feelings for Juvia, she just happens to be in love with him and stalks him, and now because of that, Gray has to give her an answer. That is why some people think it's forced, it's like begging your parents for money, the longer you beg, the easier they'll hand it to you because they've had enough of your whining. I know this comparison is demeaning, but this is how Gruvia feels like for me and many others. Yes, a relationship needs 2 people, but if you're invading one's personal zone repeatedly, they'll soon realize that they just can't do anything without having your face in front of them to see. Same case with Gray, you could say that Gray spends lots of time with Juvia because he likes her and all, but it's because she keeps popping up that he just...accepts it, you know? And so, Juvia became a part of Gray's life because he was tired of avoiding her rather than touched of her unconditional love. If Gray was to declare his love for her now, it'll feel more like pity than having actual feelings because she just fake died. So, I say this for me and others I think are feeling the same, the reason why I think Juvia ruins the Gruvia ship therefore it's forced and not good for both Gray and Juvia
(.....btw, if we're going suicide)
.....I don't think Lucy has romantic feelings for herself but alright, you do you
I agree with so much of this it's not funny. I really like Juvia, she has no problems with me I mean she's hot, physically strong, and nice and funny. Those brotp moments we've still seen with Gajeel in the Alvarez arc early on when they were going to look for Laxus so it's some in there. She's always been obsessed with Gray which is understandable but if there's ever a mission or arc that let's her and Gray go their separate way she's be able to fully glo up. Not just being her current self. That's why I liked her learning how to use that Water Make spell: Blood to transfers hers to Gray. First actual sign we've seen her train/practice her own magic since the time skip. It's just we don't get enough Juvia glo up which is the problem.
Lmao. Gruvia fans just can't accept my opinion. Deal with it. I won't change my opinion. Gruvia is still meh.
Same with others. If they think Nalu is meh then it's okay for me. I am not that worked up about it. Lmao.
Gruvia is still meeehh. Their dynamics doesn't appeal to me personally. Same with Orihimenin bleach. The stalker obsessive type just isn't for me. So yeah
Regardless of your opinion, Gruvia isn't happening because of Juvia, as she never expected anything out of him. It's happening because of Gray. If he didn't matter, the ship would have been canon already. Gray is the one making the ship mutual. Period.
Well... I suppose that isn't quite right either. It's going to be canon because of them both. One shouldn't outweigh the other, and chapter 499 has proven Gray feels the same way for Juvia as she does for him. Their actions were mirrored for that reason.
Allow me to explain why you're wrong. I really dislike when people use the "the fans want it" excuse because they dislike a certain development and can't back up their "argument" with fact. Here, in chronological order:
1) During an interview in 2007, when asked if he accepts reader's suggestions, Hiro Mashima states this: "Very rarely. I don’t completely ignore their comments of course, but in the end, since every reader has different expectations, if I accept every suggestion, then I would not be able to create a proper story. So changing the storyline due to the reactions of the readers alone is quite rare."
2) Gruvia did not become popular until Hiro Mashima of his own accord started developing it. It was extremely unpopular and disliked up until the GMG. Why? The answer is obvious. It was a joke.
3) The entire point of Lyon liking Juvia was to add more comic relief and to further Gruvia's development. How do we know? Because it wasn't even a proper love triangle (if you've watched enough shoujo you know know this), and lasted only an arc. Lyon gave up on Juvia after realizing it was hopeless. And Juvia only ever had eyes for Gray. Lyon was never an option.
4) Gray never had any romantic development with any other females aside from Juvia. I don't know where you are getting this "he's attracted all these females", but that's wrong.
5) Finally, in the omake special volume that came out in September of this year, afterwards were included on each of the stories. In the same volume where Hiro Mashima said he had no intention to make Nalu romantic but conversely ended up making readers expect it, he also commented on 413 Days. After going through the classifications of Gray fans, Hiro Mashima said "I've already decided how Gray will turn out/what his future will be. It will unlikely change regardless of the reader's thoughts".
Tl;dr: Gray and Juvia are getting together because the author wants it.
Yeah Juvia has regressed badly as a character, it was quite sad to see her whole entire being revolve around one dude. She went from a kickass yandere to a plot device for Gray. Her year training was learning a fudging blood transfusion for Gray...like um Blood Make sounded cool af yet was unimpressive af. We need this Juvia back, she was cool as heck
Unfortunately tho she's just a housewife type girl now with no ambitions but raising Gray's babies. I don't care for her character anymore.
Don't worry, dude. Even if Gray ends up with Juvia, he'll have Mirajane as a mistress.
Think of all the BDSM they could do with his ice and her Satan Soul. She'll teach Gray how to do an "Evil Explosion" all over her.
P.S.: LMAO
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Well... damn. Tumblr is a mess. :P
I wonder what people like @Doughboy and @Debonair Raven would think of this? I know @Asorx is another NaLu shipper (I think... inb4 he isn't)
I didn't see this post so i'm sorry for the late respond.. To be fair i don't hate Lissana and i don't think her character is ruined but more like she fulfilled her mission in this manga.
I shipped Nalu then Nali and after few chapters of her return i shipped Nalu again because Lissana never cared for Natsu and vice versa. Lissana simply didn't go after Natsu like before and she actually gave him to Lucy. So all of the complaining from Nali fans doesn't make any sense and btw 95% of the Nali fans aren't really Nali fans they never cared for Lissana they're just using Lissana as a reasoning to justify their complaining. They simply ship Lucy with other character.
Nalu is the best ship in this manga and it's not forced like some are implying. They started as friends then close friends then more than friends less than lovers and eventually will become lovers.
Natsu and Lucy just fit perfectly together. Their bond is very acute it's tangible and you can't really define it. She makes Natsu the best version of him, and the most alive. Pairing them up with other characters would corrupt that dynamic between them and i think Mashima thinks the same.
Natsu's and Lucy's endgame is either each other or nobody. Rather them stay friends w/ benefits before even the travesty that would be Nali. Imagine Lisanna and Natsu getting together while Lucy is searching for Aquarius' key. A true travesty. But yeah that person had no basis when bringing up this Lisanna topic. Last time Lisanna even talked to Natsu is when she showed off her serving skills by giving him a refreshment lol.
She'll teach Gray how to do an "Evil Explosion" all over her. 
