Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[savethecat]

Artists and writers being replaced in an ongoing series is one of the biggest problems with the american comic industry, what's the point of keeping up with something if it's just going to completely change part way through multiple times? It's no longer the same series at that point, you're reading someone else's interpretation of the thing you like and at that point you might as well be reading fanfiction.

Personally I'd rather Togashi stay on permanent hiatus than have another artist take over, it's fine for spin-offs and sequels but it should never switch mid-run.

I disagree. I thinking seeing other ppl's interpretations of a series is what keeps the series fresh and interesting

 

[Tamil]

There is really not a good explanation for what he did that can exonerate him. Or you just accept that he screwed up, or you call him special snowflake(that is basically what you're calling him by providing this stupid excuses).
I believe that calling somebody a special snowflake is the worse of the two. You're basically calling him retarded, so he needs special care.

Why so hostile over people justifying Togashi's hiatuses?

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Why so hostile over people justifying Togashi's hiatuses?

If saying he is a special snowflake is justifying him, I am sorry for him.

Why so hostile? Did you read my answer to every of the "justifying" points, what do you think about them? That should kind of answer what you call "hostility"!

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 16, 2017 ---

Your list doesn't have Buggy D. Clown or Wanze. Invalid list.

:O, totally forgot about them

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2017 ---

I'm not going to criticize Togashi for his hiatuses. I feel like I'm in no place to tell him what he is able and isn't able to do. I just believe he should let a new artist take over so we can actually reach an end to the series. This is very common in the American comic book industry when an artist is unable to continue for whatever reason.

Btw, has an artist ever been replaced in any manga during its run

So you're not going to criticize a worker that doesn't appear in his work for 1 month. You're in no place to tell him what he is able and isn't able to do? And if his employer decides to fire him because of that, you're going to tell him that is not a "just cause"? And if instead is 1 year?

 

[savethecat]

If saying he is a special snowflake is justifying him, I am sorry for him.

Why so hostile? Did you read my answer to every of the "justifying" points, what do you think about them? That should kind of answer what you call "hostility"!

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 16, 2017 ---

:O, totally forgot about them

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2017 ---

So you're not going to criticize a worker that doesn't appear in his work for 1 month. You're in no place to tell him what he is able and isn't able to do? And if his employer decides to fire him because of that, you're going to tell him that is not a "just cause"? And if instead is 1 year?

Can't compare being a mangaka/comic book artist to a regular 9-5 job. From the get go they pretty much operate like free lance artist. Togashi is free to work at whatever pace he pleases. And if Jump is okay with that, then who are we to criticize either him or the company

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Can't compare being a mangaka/comic book artist to a regular 9-5 job. From the get go they pretty much operate like free lance artist. Togashi is free to work at whatever pace he pleases. And if Jump is okay with that, then who are we to criticize either him or the company

So because you're a free lancer it means you can just not work? OK, I will rapidly just change to Free Lancer.

And not, they aren't free lancers at all. They are payed workers! That is why they receive salary money and they are exclusive employees of the company.

So you're saying that a person not doing is work and the fairness of being judged by it, is not dependent in what he does(or doesn't do), but in what the employer thinks about it?
So if the employer isn't OK that an employee works less than 12 hours per day, than in that case we should be able to criticize the employee. And if the employer is OK that an employee doesn't work for a decade, than we should be OK with that? I'm not even kidding, just recently in Spain was found a worker that didn't went to work for 10 years. The company is OK with it so it shouldn't be judged nor criticized?

Togashi worked equivalent of 8 years in 19, 11 years missing, but who are we to criticize him? The company is OK with it!

 

[Scruffy8642]

"The guy became a mangaka because he wanted to" -> Tell me about a person that became a manga when they didn't wanted to? ... What is the argument here?

Thats the point. No one becomes a mangaka if they dont want to. They like drawing and creating manga, its like a hobby. Even if Togashi came to hate it (in interviews he said he just hates drawing to such a strict schedule), I just cant imagine he would completely ignore something he likes for years at a time... Even if he just draws a panel every few days, it should be relaxing and enjoying for him, wouldnt you think? Something he'd want to do. Obviously im just assuming all this, but still.

"I believe Togashi just draws at his own pace, ..." -> Good to know, I will be doing the same thing in my job. When my boss comes to me to talk about how I'm not following the schedule, I will simply say that I work at my own pace!

Pretty sure everyone knows that Jump has no control over Togashi anymore. So why havent they fired him? Obviously even with his shitty work habit hes still worth keeping around? You really think they spend 2 years begging him to come back for just 2 months? And do that every hiatus? Im not trying to justify his work habits in any way, theyre disgraceful. Im just saying how I think he goes about it because its obvious rules dont apply to him.

 

[savethecat]

So because you're a free lancer it means you can just not work? OK, I will rapidly just change to Free Lancer.

And not, they aren't free lancers at all. They are payed workers! That is why they receive salary money and they are exclusive employees of the company.

So you're saying that a person not doing is work and the fairness of being judged by it, is not dependent in what he does(or doesn't do), but in what the employer thinks about it?
So if the employer isn't OK that an employee works less than 12 hours per day, than in that case we should be able to criticize the employee. And if the employer is OK that an employee doesn't work for a decade, than we should be OK with that? I'm not even kidding, just recently in Spain was found a worker that didn't went to work for 10 years. The company is OK with it so it shouldn't be judged nor criticized?

Togashi worked equivalent of 8 years in 19, 11 years missing, but who are we to criticize him? The company is OK with it!

Togashi is a 60+ year old man who's created a series widely regarded as a classic, and a second series widely regarded as one of the greatest Shonen stories ever made. We're not talking about a 9-5 here. We're talking about the entertainment industry. Togashi earned his place to work at his own pace. In any field of entertainment, whether it be acting, music, writing or drawing, the more popular and respected the artist is, the more leeway they have when they work.

Maybe he's just sitting around all day playing video games(which I doubt), but we don't know that. How do we know he's not developing ideas and drawing drafts throughout the months at his own pace? How do we know that the current method he is working isn't easier on him with his age and health being put into consideration?

Like I said. Togashi is a creator. We're not talking about a 9-5 job. If we were discussing the work habits of a construction worker, a doctor, or a repair man, than yes, we have a serious issue here and he should be fired IMMEDIATELY. We're talking about a guy who creates stories for a living though. If he's reached a position where his creation is so adored and valued that he's able to work at his own pace and do things however he wants, I don't see why he shouldn't

As long as Togashi continues putting out quality work I don't see why there's an issue if he says he has health problems. As a fan, I do wish HxH released at a faster pace, but I'm not going to criticize Togashi, or complain about him.

 

[iceemperor]

Togashi is a 60+ year old man who's created a series widely regarded as a classic, and a second series widely regarded as one of the greatest Shonen stories ever made. We're not talking about a 9-5 here. We're talking about the entertainment industry. Togashi earned his place to work at his own pace. In any field of entertainment, whether it be acting, music, writing or drawing, the more popular and respected the artist is, the more leeway they have when they work.

Maybe he's just sitting around all day playing video games(which I doubt), but we don't know that. How do we know he's not developing ideas and drawing drafts throughout the months at his own pace? How do we know that the current method he is working isn't easier on him with his age and health being put into consideration?

Like I said. Togashi is a creator. We're not talking about a 9-5 job. If we were discussing the work habits of a construction worker, a doctor, or a repair man, than yes, we have a serious issue here and he should be fired IMMEDIATELY. We're talking about a guy who creates stories for a living though. If he's reached a position where his creation is so adored and valued that he's able to work at his own pace and do things however he wants, I don't see why he shouldn't

As long as Togashi continues putting out quality work I don't see why there's an issue if he says he has health problems. As a fan, I do wish HxH released at a faster pace, but I'm not going to criticize Togashi, or complain about him.

Togashi turns 51 in about 2 weeks. While thats still old, its nothing compared to Akimoto who drew a chapter every week from 1976 to 2016 without taking a break other than when the magazine itself had a break. Regardless of the content of the manga, the actual process is just as hard for every single mangaka. Kochikame is also arguably much more of an icon in Japan than HxH. Its also at 156 million copies in total, which means that Akimoto never has to work , or had to work all these years after a certain point. Golgo 13's Saitou Takao mentioned in Manben that after a point, the work stops being the mangaka's and becomes the reader's work. The mangaka has a responsibility to continue due to this fact. Thats why Kochikame, Golgo 13, Conan, etc are going on this long. Its become the reader's work. HxH is at a point where we can say that might also be true. After 4 years a new volume was released and it quickly hit 1 million in a month so fans still want to read the work regardless of how long its been. Even so, Togashi goes back into hiatus. I appreciate his work but after a point, I cannot excuse his extended breaks anymore. If Akimoto at 60 and even Saitou Takao at 81 are still consistently putting out chapters on time, Togashi should at least be able to handle a monthly release. What Jump's editorial office is doing can only be guessed at this point.

 

[WyldViolet]

You people have zero idea the tolls depression and back pain can have on a person.

 

[savethecat]

Togashi turns 51 in about 2 weeks. While thats still old, its nothing compared to Akimoto who drew a chapter every week from 1976 to 2016 without taking a break other than when the magazine itself had a break. Regardless of the content of the manga, the actual process is just as hard for every single mangaka. Kochikame is also arguably much more of an icon in Japan than HxH. Its also at 156 million copies in total, which means that Akimoto never has to work , or had to work all these years after a certain point. Golgo 13's Saitou Takao mentioned in Manben that after a point, the work stops being the mangaka's and becomes the reader's work. The mangaka has a responsibility to continue due to this fact. Thats why Kochikame, Golgo 13, Conan, etc are going on this long. Its become the reader's work. HxH is at a point where we can say that might also be true. After 4 years a new volume was released and it quickly hit 1 million in a month so fans still want to read the work regardless of how long its been. Even so, Togashi goes back into hiatus. I appreciate his work but after a point, I cannot excuse his extended breaks anymore. If Akimoto at 60 and even Saitou Takao at 81 are still consistently putting out chapters on time, Togashi should at least be able to handle a monthly release. What Jump's editorial office is doing can only be guessed at this point.

Sorry for getting his age wrong, But you can't compare him to other artist. We have no info on his health issues. We have no info on his back issues. I know some ppl will bring up that we've seen him make some public appearances. But the thing is, people with severe back issues aren't in excruciating pain 24/7. The pain comes and goes. One week it may be bearable. But the next week they might find themselves having a hard time getting out of bed.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible that he's overexaggerating his issues, or just being lazy. But I don't think it's fair to just assume that he's okay enough to consistently manage a weekly or monthly schedule. We have literally no info on his health. We're just assuming.

And say there's a older an older mangaka out there that's still releasing weekly/monthly chapters through their health issues. That's very commendable. But just because they're working through the pain doesn't mean EVERY artist should be expected to do the same.

And like I said. In any field of art, if you achieved a level of respect, and you work reached a certain level of fame, you're reach a point where you're allowed to work at your own pace and freedom. Nobody is going to tell Martin Scorsese how fast he needs to release his movies and how long has to work on them, even under contract, because he's Martin Scorsese. His movies have a certain level of quality and respect that big heads aren't going to disrupt his process.
Togashi reached that point to have that level respect in his field. It's not like he got to this status being lazy and halfassing it. He obviously worked very hard to get the respect he has. If his current way of making manga is what works best for him, and allows him to make the best story possible, we shouldn't criticize that. Either way we're going to be hype when he comes back and eat up any HxH material he throws at us and Jump knows this. Which is why he's still in the magazine

 

[TM2]

Depression and other health issues can definitely take their toll on a person. Especially in the murder machine that is the weekly manga industry. However some of the reasons I think people are so hard on Togashi despite these issues is not only the sheer amount of time he takes hiatuses but also some of the perceived issues that stop him from creating additional content are trivial or easy to solve especially with the potential resources Togashi has access to. Which leads some fans to question whether or not he cares enough about his own story to finish it.

Art taking a toll on his health? Hire a different artist or at least more assistants. Hell I bet there will even be volunteers.

Back problems? Typing isn't nearly as taxing.

Playing too many games? You still have a job to do like the rest of us.

Do you care about the fans or story anymore? .....

Make no mistake Togashi is still one of my favorite manga authors. But to take this long with no satisfying answers will definitely grate some nerves.

 

[Newkerzy]

Depression and other health issues can definitely take their toll on a person. Especially in the murder machine that is the weekly manga industry. However some of the reasons I think people are so hard on Togashi despite these issues is not only the sheer amount of time he takes hiatuses but also some of the perceived issues that stop him from creating additional content are trivial or easy to solve especially with the potential resources Togashi has access to. Which leads some fans to question whether or not he cares enough about his own story to finish it.

Art taking a toll on his health? Hire a different artist or at least more assistants. Hell I bet there will even be volunteers.

Back problems? Typing isn't nearly as taxing.

Playing too many games? You still have a job to do like the rest of us.

Do you care about the fans or story anymore? .....

Make no mistake Togashi is still one of my favorite manga authors. But to take this long with no satisfying answers will definitely grate some nerves.

Bolded: Just to make a point, if Mashima can write a weekly manga, put out double-triple chapters on occasions, draw doodles to share with his fans, color pages AND do all of this while finishing FFXV in 36 hours, then Togashi has absolutely no excuse to slack off when someone else is putting twice as much effort into his manga and still make time to complete games like the FF series.

With how much you guys love to bash Mashima, I find this incredibly ironic, because one thing's for sure, Mashima stil clearly has a lot of commitment and passion towards his work. Can the same be said for Togashi?

 

[savethecat]

Depression and other health issues can definitely take their toll on a person. Especially in the murder machine that is the weekly manga industry. However some of the reasons I think people are so hard on Togashi despite these issues is not only the sheer amount of time he takes hiatuses but also some of the perceived issues that stop him from creating additional content are trivial or easy to solve especially with the potential resources Togashi has access to. Which leads some fans to question whether or not he cares enough about his own story to finish it.

Art taking a toll on his health? Hire a different artist or at least more assistants. Hell I bet there will even be volunteers.

Back problems? Typing isn't nearly as taxing.

Playing too many games? You still have a job to do like the rest of us.

Do you care about the fans or story anymore? .....

Make no mistake Togashi is still one of my favorite manga authors. But to take this long with no satisfying answers will definitely grate some nerves.

I agree that he should hire a different artist, but that seems to be very uncommon in the manga industry. Maybe a cultural thing??
And in that one letter he wrote years back it seems as though he seriously wants to do the work himself.
Togashi has the money to retire if he felt like it. So if he didn't legitimately love doing this I don't think he'd constantly keep coming back. Like I said. Seems like he's comfortable with his current work ethic. And regardless of how many fans complain, those same fans are gonna read the new chapters and buy the new volumes regardless. So regardless of the complaints, his way of doing things clearly works for the series.

Bolded: Just to make a point, if Mashima can write a weekly manga, put out double-triple chapters on occasions, draw doodles to share with his fans, color pages AND do all of this while finishing FFXV in 36 hours, then Togashi has absolutely no excuse to slack off when someone else is putting twice as much effort into his manga and still make time to complete games like the FF series.

With how much you guys love to bash Mashima, I find this incredibly ironic, because one thing's for sure, Mashima stil clearly has a lot of commitment and passion towards his work. Can the same be said for Togashi?

Again. Can't compare two completely different people. Yes Mashima is a working machine. Idk if Mashima has health issues like Togashi, but how would anyone know if Togashi's health issue are more severe or not? How would anyone know if Togashi's tolerance for pain is better or worse than the other's?
As I said in the other post. Idk what Togashi's Networth is, but given he has two huge series, and his wife has a huge series, I'm sure they're living comfortably. If Togashi had no interest in the series I highly doubt he'd continue coming back to it. If he had no desire to work he'd like just retire. One thing nobody seems to question is HxH's quality. It stays consistent with great writing regardless of its year+ long hiatuses. Togashi can't just pull ideas and panels out of his ass on the spot. I'm sure he dedicates his time off developing ideas and visions for the series.

Maybe he's bs'ing and overexaggerating his health issues. But anyone who has actually met someone with severe back issues knows it isn't a joke. It's extremely agonizing and depressing for them to live with it. And it isn't exactly something you fix. Once your back is messed up you'll likely always have back issues. If some mangaka can work through it, that's great for them. But you can't exactly criticize someone who doesn't want to push it too much when they have health issues

 

[Newkerzy]

He's only coming back to it so he can make a living, but even that can't be a measuring stick to judge whether he has any passion or not. So just simply saying "if he didn't have any passion, he wouldn't be continuing the manga" is an abstract argument. How do we know if he really is passionate about it? For all we know, he could be doing it just to put food on the table and keep up his hobby, even with so much money, money isn't exactly infinite.

If anything, you could just as easily argue that he's only putting in the necessary amount of work to sustain his living.

 

[Mammo]

You people should stop comparing Togashi to Akimoto, Aoyama, Morikawa, Itagaki, Kariya, Mashima insert name here...

it doesn't make any sense because different people have different capabilities and different circumstances

there is no different from what you're doing and asking the average Joe to play sport like an outstanding athlete

"why not? Ronaldo can do it, Lebron James can do it, Andy Murray can do it.... this guy should be able to do it too" see how illogical this sound?

How do we know if he really is passionate about it? For all we know, he could be doing it just to put food on the table and keep up his hobby, even with so much money, money isn't exactly infinite.

If anything, you could just as easily argue that he's only putting in the necessary amount of work to sustain his living.

Forget all the money he made from YYH and HxH and let's assume he threw it all in the garbage
even then he's married to Sailor Moon mangaka a franchise that keep bringing money
he doesn't need to work a day in his life and anyone that read HxH or YYH could see they are products of passion
how can you prove they're not?

======
in other news look at what's trending on Japanese twitter

I don't read World's End Harem, but they must have introduced a new and exciting plot

 

[savethecat]

He's only coming back to it so he can make a living, but even that can't be a measuring stick to judge whether he has any passion or not. So just simply saying "if he didn't have any passion, he wouldn't be continuing the manga" is an abstract argument. How do we know if he really is passionate about it? For all we know, he could be doing it just to put food on the table and keep up his hobby, even with so much money, money isn't exactly infinite.

If anything, you could just as easily argue that he's only putting in the necessary amount of work to sustain his living.

Do you think dropping one volume every two years makes him THAT much of a profit? Yes one volume probably makes him a good amount of money. But he's likely still collecting royalties and could likely live comfortable if he never released another HxH chapter. Releasing 1 volume every now and then probably doesn't give a significant amount in comparison to what him and his wife (likely) already have.

Also. By that "He wants money" logic, wouldn't it make more sense for him to release more volumes in one year? If he was truely able to release way more content than he already is and was that desperate to make a living, why wouldn't he release enough content for 2 or 3 volumes every time he comes back?

 

[Newkerzy]

Do you think dropping one volume every two years makes him THAT much of a profit? Yes one volume probably makes him a good amount of money. But he's likely still collecting royalties and could likely live comfortable if he never released another HxH chapter.

Also. By that "He wants money" logic, wouldn't it make more sense for him to release more volumes in one year? If he was truely able to release way more content than he already is and was that desperate to make a living, why wouldn't he release enough content for 2 or 3 volumes every time he comes back?

Honestly, you and I both don't know what the hell goes on in Togashi's mind either. Ok, let's say he drops a volume's worth of content every two years, then why just one? Why not just a bit more? Manga chapters are usually drawn in advance before they're released, if Togashi spread out his schedule a bit, two volumes a year would be the maximum he can do and still leave him a lot of free time to rest and relax.

 

[savethecat]

Honestly, you and I both don't know what the hell goes on in Togashi's mind either. Ok, let's say he drops a volume's worth of content every two years, then why just one? Why not just a bit more? Manga chapters are usually drawn in advance before they're released, if Togashi spread out his schedule a bit, two volumes a year would be the maximum he can do and still leave him a lot of free time to rest and relax.

Neither of us know what's fully going on with Togashi. However, what we do know is that he himself constantly states that he has agonizing back issues that and depression stemming from those issues. And other ppl in the industry, such as editors state that he has health issues. And we know for a fact that he has gotten back surgery a couple years ago.

There seems to me way more evidence that supports that he legitimately has severe issues with his back, and is truthful about his difficulties drawing manga.

We obviously have know way of knowing how passionate he truly feels about making manga. However when reading HxH you can see for yourself that there is a ton of effort and dedication put into writing the story. Someone who isn't passionate about something doesn't exactly release quality, well-written stories consistently. Even when he has unfinished drawings and whole chapters of just sketches, the man makes sure to improve the quality for volume releases. It's seems clear that he enjoys writing the series.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

I Knew that most of the defense to Togashi would be: He is a special snowflake.



So, don't compare him to other workers and evaluate him by different, special, standards. Because obviously he is a special kind of person(And not I'm not using special as a good thing!)

@Mammo The comment about the elite sport players is super stupid. This is the obvious fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.
The comparison with the top people is not a way to say that Togashi also has to do the same, but the fact that what he doing isn't nowhere near, but really nowhere near, a human limit.

What I ask is not that normal people work as much as Ronaldo, but if they go to do sport professionally, that they have two practices per day, at least 2 hours each. I would accept, even though with some reservation, just having one practice. I would start to complain seriously if just 1 practice per week would be made, and even more if something worse was the case. And opposite to you and many of Togashi apologists and fans, I don't care if the person doing this is my biggest idol. Be it Ronaldo or Michael Jordan. Be it Oda or Inoue Takehiko.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 16, 2017 ---

Someone who isn't passionate about something doesn't exactly release quality, well-written stories consistently.

This is the biggest bulshit thing I ever heard! Connecting 2 totally unrelated things just to make a point. Since when passion as anything to do with the quality of the work? Are you saying that if I'm mega passionate with drawing manga, the manga I draw right now will be well-written?

Conan Doyle, is known to totally not be passionate about writing Sherlock Holmes in its end, he was mega annoyed about the character and the stories. Still he kept doing it, for some time, for the fans and the quality kept the same or arguable increased(for the people the prefer those section of Sherlock Holmes stories).

"quality" and well-written are things connected with a CRAFT, not FEELLINGS. If the craftsmen still does the work necessary, the work will still get the desirable results, independently of what is passion at the moment were or are.

 

[Mammo]

I didn't say don't compare only Togashi because he's special

I'm saying it generally, don't compare 2 different people period

everyone is different, we have different dna, different genes, different background, different circumstances etc..

it doesn't make any sense