Correct! Unfortunately, Zeref has never shown it so he can't use it. Same with using random curses from demons he created. This is why Zeref is such a disappointing character. He could have had so many interesting attacks, and all he did was slug it out with Natsu. There are all sorts of feats he could've shown to swing this matchup, but he DIDN'T. He didn't do those things, and because he didn't, he can't win this fight.
Also, Laxus would probably best Bradman mid-diff since Gajeel could do it. Laxus starts having tall difficulty with Spriggans once they're at God Serena tier. Depending on if Laxus could resist the hax girls, DiMaria and Brandish those fights could've gone either way. Laxus is weaker than Irene, but he's a dragon-slayer so there's an argument for him. Laxus is similar to stronger Spriggans in terms of strength. Zeref just has refused to show that degree of strength which, it stands to reason, he should've had.
Even if Wahl used the moves Laxus would just dodge them. I'd be willing to listen to logic but you are straight up making things up. According to Zeref, Fairy Heart gave him control over space and time which he used to regenerate from DF Natsu attack. Of course it made him stronger
Those moves I said have a wider AoE than Laxus can outrun. No that was just to show off the power of the time lapse. He still would've been able to comeback from that attack due to his immortality. Natsu couldn't kill Zeref with or without FH. Even his strongest form only put Zeref out of comminsion for a few minutes. Zeref durability is too high for Laxus, and he has the means to kill him in an instant. Zeref is just too strong for Laxus.
Based on what? He punches Natsu and usually Natsu just takes it. Natsu dispels his attacks with normal, if extremely strong, attacks. You're applying qualities to Zeref's attacks that are neither described nor demonstrated.
My point is that while Natsu is better, many of Natsu's plain feats include deflection and CQC, which Laxus has similar capabilities in. He couldn't burn away Fairy Heart. Fortunately, for this fight, he doesn't need to. All he needs to do is dodge and harass Zeref's slow ass with Lightning attacks until he drops. Given his tendency, he'd try to enter CQC and probably exchange some damage because of it, but not enough to end th fight. It's not particularly easy for anyone to enchant moving lightning.
Correct! Unfortunately, Zeref has never shown it so he can't use it. Same with using random curses from demons he created. This is why Zeref is such a disappointing character. He could have had so many interesting attacks, and all he did was slug it out with Natsu. There are all sorts of feats he could've shown to swing this matchup, but he DIDN'T. He didn't do those things, and because he didn't, he can't win this fight.
Oh, I wasn't saying he can use the Curses from Tartaros That's Bradman's territory, it was the Fairy Law point that stood out to me. I just don't see how Zeref would be damaged by a spell that he invented himself and practically handed over to Fairy Tail.
But yeah, I mostly agree on the part where the Zeref vs Natsu part was disappointing and was reduced to a basic CQC sausagefest. However, I still think that Laxus doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can put down Zeref, considering his strongest technique is Red Lightning, and all it did was take down a low to mid tier S12. Zeref has tanked harder attacks than that.
Even if you say Zeref hasn't shown anything impressive you can't honestly debate that Laxus can take down Zeref with his current moveset.
Those moves I said have a wider AoE than Laxus can outrun. No that was just to show off the power of the time lapse. He still would've been able to comeback from that attack due to his immortality. Natsu couldn't kill Zeref with or without FH. Even his strongest form only put Zeref out of comminsion for a few minutes. Zeref durability is too high for Laxus, and he has the means to kill him in an instant. Zeref is just too strong for Laxus.
The fact that it didn't kill him is pretty explicitly factoring in Zeref's immortality which is restricted in this discussion. The fact is, this fight limits all of Zeref's strongest qualities, his immorality, his time-stopping hax, and Fairy Heart. Any one of which would've turned this fight in his favor. But he's simply hasn't shown the feats that people just assume he has.
For those not listening: he has to demonstrate it. So enchanting and Fairy Law and curses and everything else that you'd think he could do, all of those are banned. If Zeref vs. Laxus had been written to the maximum of each of their hype, Zeref would win. But, on-panel, Zeref hasn't lived up to the hype. He obtained unlimited power. Then got one-shot by power of friendship. He could've been so much cooler. They hardly even broke anything in the guild besides a single wall and some furniture.
However, I still think that Laxus doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can put down Zeref, considering his strongest technique is Red Lightning, and all it did was take down a low to mid tier S12. Zeref has tanked harder attacks than that.
The key point is that it took down a mid tier spriggan who is immune to lightning. Red lighting is far stronger than his normal attacks. We don't now if it can knock Zeref unconscious but we also don't know that it can't. It just needs to be on the level of FDKM Natsu's finishing move
The key point is that it took down a mid tier spriggan who is immune to lightning. Red lighting is far stronger than his normal attacks. We don't now if it can knock Zeref unconscious but we also don't know that it can't. It just needs to be on the level of FDKM Natsu's finishing move
I'd also argue that the attack that nearly murdered Ajeel is capable of significantly damaging Zeref on top of Red lightning. It wouldn't one-shot Zeref, but there's no need to finish with a named attack when you can just spam good, if nameless, nukes. Many of Laxus's mid tier attacks would eventually overwhelm the offensively unimpressive Zeref.
Yes, Laxus's speed and power feats are remarkable in comparison to the overwhelming majority of the cast, but would he honestly be able to close the gap with his speed against a legendary wizard who has an arsenal of spells he can use casually when he hasn't lost his mind?
From immobilizing mages instantly (Kain and Rustyrose), casting a lethal spell that renders the target helpless (Makarov), to his death aura effectively rendering him untouchable? Laxus hasn't shown anything that could counter Zeref's spells. His only hope is Fairy Law, and with the time it takes for the spell to cast, I can easily see Zeref disposing of Laxus.
Zeref stomps within 2-3 moves, pick whatever spell I've mentioned and more. Absolutely no contest.
I'm amazed this is actually generating this much discussion to begin with.
The key point is that it took down a mid tier spriggan who is immune to lightning. Red lighting is far stronger than his normal attacks. We don't now if it can knock Zeref unconscious but we also don't know that it can't. It just needs to be on the level of FDKM Natsu's finishing move
But thats the idea. Red Lightning took out a Spriggan who was immune to Laxus's normal lightning. That was a whole new different magic, and Wahl ultimately lost because he couldn't analyze it and come up with a weakness for it like he did all of Laxus's moves before. If Wahl had ample time to analyze the technique I'm pretty sure he would have come up with a counter to it.
Ultimately, the point is Laxus's best technique is at mid tier Spriggan level, and Natsu has dished out attacks stronger than that in all his fights with Zeref (Igneel's magic). Considering Zeref didn't even regenerate mid battle and was only left bruised, how exactly would Laxus dish out lasting damage that would take Zeref down. No, I'm asking you now, tell me one move that Laxus uses that would defeat Zeref based on the restrictions placed on him in this tournament.
But thats the idea. Red Lightning took out a Spriggan who was immune to Laxus's normal lightning. That was a whole new different magic, and Wahl ultimately lost because he couldn't analyze it and come up with a weakness for it like he did all of Laxus's moves before. If Wahl had ample time to analyze the technique I'm pretty sure he would have come up with a counter to it.
Ultimately, the point is Laxus's best technique is at mid tier Spriggan level, and Natsu has dished out attacks stronger than that in all his fights with Zeref (Igneel's magic). Considering Zeref didn't even regenerate mid battle and was only left bruised, how exactly would Laxus dish out lasting damage that would take Zeref down. No, I'm asking you now, tell me one move that Laxus uses that would defeat Zeref based on the restrictions placed on him in this tournament.
So an attack being able to take down a mid-tier spriggan automatically means that it wouldn't be able to take down a stronger opponent? I don't understand that logic. Tell me one move that Zeref has shown that is both fast and powerful enough to beat Laxus.
Laxus is massively overrated in this thread. For all the hype of Laxus being able to speed-blitz, he's never done so instantaneously against high-level opponents in recent arcs, without any warning at all. Pure hype. Yes, Laxus's speed and power feats are remarkable in comparison to the overwhelming majority of the cast, but would he honestly be able to close the gap with his speed against a legendary wizard who has an arsenal of spells he can use casually when he hasn't lost his mind?
From immobilizing mages instantly (Kain and Rustyrose), casting a lethal spell that renders the target helpless (Makarov), to his death aura effectively rendering him untouchable? Laxus hasn't shown anything that could counter Zeref's spells. His only hope is Fairy Law, and with the time it takes for the spell to cast, I can easily see Zeref disposing of Laxus.
Zeref stomps. Absolutely no contest. I'm amazed this is actually generating this much discussion to begin with.
Huh, I'm not quite sure what to do with the Kain/Rustyrose paralysis. That's neither been described nor explained, it might just be a general pressure feat. As for trapping Makarov, Makarov has constantly degraded as other characters improved, I don't find that spell to be a combat ability, though that's certainly just my personal interpretation. As for his Death Aura, it was only destructive and active while he cared about life. Current Zeref doesn't have the ability to simply radiate death anymore since he hasn't shown it except when it was against his will. His only relevant combat abilities were Death Pillar, his projectile, his final exchange with Natsu, and the spell he used to temporarily restrain Natsu. Personally, I find that last restraining ability to be the most potent of the lot because it would take Laxus' mobility from him, but I think lightning body would allow him to escape it relatively unscathed.
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The attack he would finish the fight with is the blast that nearly killed Ajeel. It's spammable, enormous AoE and high damage. I'm convinced that's a valid method for attacking Laxus could use to defeat Zeref.
I'm not quite sure what to do with the Kain/Rustyrose paralysis. That's neither been described nor explained, it might just be a general pressure feat.
Speculation at best. What doesn't change is that Zeref is capable of that, one of the few, if only characters to show that sort of insane power. Not something you could take away from him, not to mention it being an actual usable power here.
Makarov has constantly degraded as other characters improved, I don't find that spell to be a combat ability, though that's certainly just my personal interpretation
Feel free to tie in speculation on Makarov's degradation to Laxus's supposed capability to counter this spell, if you want. I can see the former, but how it ties into the latter to declare that this spell would be rendered ineffective on Laxus? Haven't seen any feats from Laxus that would suggest that.
The spell is intended to be lethal, I don't see how that isn't a combat spell. Regardless, call it what you like, it's one that can be employed here.
As for his Death Aura, it was only destructive and active while he cared about life. Current Zeref doesn't have the ability to simply radiate death anymore since he hasn't shown it except when it was against his will. His only relevant combat abilities were Death Pillar, his projectile, his final exchange with Natsu, and the spell he used to temporarily restrain Natsu.
Huh, I'm not quite sure what to do with the Kain/Rustyrose paralysis. That's neither been described nor explained, it might just be a general pressure feat. As for trapping Makarov, Makarov has constantly degraded as other characters improved, I don't find that spell to be a combat ability, though that's certainly just my personal interpretation. As for his Death Aura, it was only destructive and active while he cared about life. Current Zeref doesn't have the ability to simply radiate death anymore since he hasn't shown it except when it was against his will. His only relevant combat abilities were Death Pillar, his projectile, his final exchange with Natsu, and the spell he used to temporarily restrain Natsu. Personally, I find that last restraining ability to be the most potent of the lot because it would take Laxus' mobility from him, but I think lightning body would allow him to escape it relatively unscathed.
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The attack he would finish the fight with is the blast that nearly killed Ajeel. It's spammable, enormous AoE and high damage. I'm convinced that's a valid method for attacking Laxus could use to defeat Zeref.
I really appreciate your reasoned approach, I just feel like some of the potential of things you're referencing is also speculation, so I don't know how to address it one way or the other. I'm willing to concede points, I guess my biggest issue is that those spells aren't convincing enough to me when Laxus can blow up Spriggans like Ajeel with casual indifference, a disregard for strong opponents shown only by August and God Serena. (While acknowledging other characters with similar feats that didn't show such obscene willingness to go nuclear)
So an attack being able to take down a mid-tier spriggan automatically means that it wouldn't be able to take down a stronger opponent? I don't understand that logic. Tell me one move that Zeref has shown that is both fast and powerful enough to beat Laxus.
The paralysis technique he used on Natsu, which forced him to enter Dragon Force, a mode that's superior to FDKM, and which should be superior to anything Laxus has shown to date.
Zeref just sits there and waits all day for Laxus to try and break out of the spell, and once he'd tired he follows it up with another spell, just to be on the winning team.
Then he follows it up with a Death Pillar, how does Laxus counter that move when he's stopped in his tracks?
The paralysis technique he used on Natsu, which forced him to enter Dragon Force, a mode that's superior to FDKM, and which should be superior to anything Laxus has shown to date.
Zeref just sits there and waits all day for Laxus to try and break out of the spell, and once he'd tired he follows it up with another spell, just to be on the winning team.
Then he follows it up with a Death Pillar, how does Laxus counter that move when he's stopped in his tracks?
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