Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Doughboy]

So you don´t want an expansion in form of anime-only content? Am I the onyl one who wants it? God, I thought you said that Black Clover is shallow and boring, because that´s what it is

You liked Yuno's backstory? People have pointed out that filler expanded the canon content so it's right up your alley. I'm more looking forward to the other characters after seeing them in the visuals and the opening, while Yuno is cool he isn't great to me. Are there any parts with the upcoming introductions of the main cast that can be fleshed out?

 

[tirakai]

Is the Gintama anime even all that popular in the west? I've always gotten the impression the the actual number of fans it has is very small for a long runner, it's just that the people who do watch Gintama really love it.

 

[Mammo]

Are there any parts with the upcoming introductions of the main cast that can be fleshed out?

the upcoming knights selection exams lasted a couple of small panels in the manga iirc

they can expand that, but I'm not sure they will give us anything but Asta f***ing up and yelling

 

[ChocoBar9]

Is the Gintama anime even all that popular in the west? I've always gotten the impression the the actual number of fans it has is very small for a long runner, it's just that the people who do watch Gintama really love it.

Compared longrunners like One Piece, Naruto and Bleach yeah but the fanbase is pretty sizable regardless and loyal for sticking with a series going on over 10 years now. It definitely steers towards a cult following than a mainstream hit given the humor.

 

[Scruffy8642]

Its a perfect example because it proves that series that are popular online does not translate to success in the west. Both the anime and the manga failed in the US.

I don't think we're being strict at all, you just can't say something is big in the US based on such vague pretense like traffic over actual sales since traffic can come from anywhere not just the US. Honestly that is true for the most part since most audiences will not discover something unless its animated, OPM is a rare exception where its transition from successful manga to successful anime was seamless because it was already big enough online that most of its fanbase were just waiting for it to be animated and of course we already know that Heroaca benefited from Naruto ending which drew people towards it hence why its anime was so highly anticipated. The biggest manga online without a anime adaptation is Tokyo Ghoul :Re (which just got announced last week), Tower of God, and Goblin Slayer and this is just going by how they rank on manga sites.

Since when did the West only include the US...? Sigh...

The problem is you’re expecting a new series with no promotion outside of Japan to be on the level of big hitters, which just cannot happen with the manga market being as niche as it is. By that standard, nothing is popular atm, so naturally lower the bar a bit.

You have to compare how a series is doing relative to others in the same position as it. Does Neverland have a larger name in the West than a series like HZ? Absolutely. Does it have a larger name than most other series in it’s position currently? Absolutely. Yes I’m going off website traffic, but so what? what else can you use when most of these series are yet to have voluem releases? Sales aren’t everything either, though they might be to the licensing companies. On their own, they’re a pretty vague reflection of popularity too. Theyre not the be all and end all of the name a series has built for itself. A series’ fame goes beyond just it’s official success, like you said with Gintama. Fame doesn’t necessarily translate to sales for a variety of reasons.

The TG franchise has already had exposure in the form of an anime, so it would be stupid to count it. Tower of God isnt even a manga and is a whole different ballgame, I don’t see why it’s relevant. Goblin slayer may have good sales (haven’t checked), but that certainly doesn’t mean it’s big in the West, you’d be hardpressed to find people who have even heard of it.

Though I feel like this conversation is getting nowhere because apparently something has to be up there with the most popular series in the west of all time to be considered “big” by your standards...

 

[Leoat12]

A series fame may be go beyond official success, but this is the measure that matters, that was what VIZ used to drop Gintama completely. We are interested here in how many fans, truly fans, who buys the manga, have. People who wants to read the manga for free are not really fans and should not be counted, the majority of them are like that unfortunately. So, that's why internet is not a good measure, people can discuss something passionately when they are reading it for free, but I don't think 10% of them will buy the manga when it comes out.

 

[savethecat]

I wasn't stating the Neverland is huge here. But for a manga that's only been around for a year and has no anime, it clearly has a sizable fanbase.
It's certainly more relevant than a good amount of the other newer series in Jump like Saiki, HZ, and Kimetsu No Yaiba.

 

[Scruffy8642]

A series fame may be go beyond official success, but this is the measure that matters, that was what VIZ used to drop Gintama completely. We are interested here in how many fans, truly fans, who buys the manga, have. People who wants to read the manga for free are not really fans and should not be counted, the majority of them are like that unfortunately. So, that's why internet is not a good measure, people can discuss something passionately when they are reading it for free, but I don't think 90% of them will buy the manga when it comes out.

So Gintama isn't popular because Viz had no success with it... Riiiight.

And I think your next statement is going to piss off a lot of people. The fact that such a large proportion don't buy official releases is proof that sales are not a good means of judging something's popularity because the numbers are skewed for a sample that does not represent the population. Really, sales only matter for the publisher, not the series' fame, though they are a part of it, as sad as that is to admit.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Since when did the West only include the US...? Sigh...

That's usually what people mean when referring to the west or else why bother even bringing in up

The problem is you’re expecting a new series with no promotion outside of Japan to be on the level of big hitters, which just cannot happen with the manga market being as niche as it is. By that standard, nothing is popular atm, so naturally lower the bar a bit.

Where did I even state that? If I recall you and savethecat kept saying that Neverland was already big based on something as vague as online traffic despite the fact that Neverland doesn't even rank in highly popular manga sites like batoto, kissmanga, etc.

You have to compare how a series is doing relative to others in the same position as it. Does Neverland have a larger name in the West than a series like HZ? Absolutely. Does it have a larger name than most other series in it’s position currently? Absolutely. Yes I’m going off website traffic, but so what? what else can you use when most of these series are yet to have voluem releases?

Again where are you getting your data from? All other sources does not list Neverland within the top most viewed manga on their sites so how can they be generating traffic to begin with?

Sales aren’t everything either, though they might be to the licensing companies. On their own, they’re a pretty vague reflection of popularity too. Theyre not the be all and end all of the name a series has built for itself. A series’ fame goes beyond just it’s official success, like you said with Gintama. Fame doesn’t necessarily translate to sales for a variety of reasons.

Of course sales mean everything. You think Naruto and Bleach just suddenly became popular after their respective anime got licensed? No they had very strong manga sales even before then and tripled when their anime also became huge hits. You think Viz just suddenly licensed the OPM anime on a whim? No the manga was a top seller even before then. So yeah I don't get where you think Neverland is big based on "traffic" alone but scuff at actual sales figures, there's not even a guarantee it'll sell well in the west at all.

The TG franchise has already had exposure in the form of an anime, so it would be stupid to count it. Tower of God isnt even a manga and is a whole different ballgame, I don’t see why it’s relevant. Goblin slayer may have good sales (haven’t checked), but that certainly doesn’t mean it’s big in the West, you’d be hardpressed to find people who have even heard of it.

Why? Because it proves your assertion wrong? ToG is highly ranked on most manga websites and if something like Noblese can get attention from studios then the ballgame isn't any different. Goblin Slayer got enough traction that it was licensed before the first volume came out in Japan and once again ranks high on illegal hosting sites.

Though I feel like this conversation is getting nowhere because apparently something has to be up there with the most popular series in the west of all time to be considered “big” by your standards...

No I'm still waiting on you and savethecat to backup your claims that shows that Neverland gets the insane amount of traffic you keep pushing.

 

[shoyoboyo]

TIL I'm not actually a fan of any of the manga I read because I don't buy the volumes.

 

[ChocoBar9]

I wasn't stating the Neverland is huge here. But for a manga that's only been around for a year and has no anime, it clearly has a sizable fanbase.
It's certainly more relevant than a good amount of the other newer series in Jump like Saiki, HZ, and Kimetsu No Yaiba.

Comparing it to clearly niche titles doesn't make for a good argument especially since Saiki and HZ were never licensed by Viz.

 

[Leoat12]

So Gintama isn't popular because Viz had no success with it... Riiiight.

And I think your next statement is going to piss off a lot of people. The fact that such a large proportion don't buy official releases is proof that sales are not a good means of judging something's popularity because the numbers are skewed for a sample that does not represent the population. Really, sales only matter for the publisher, not the series' fame, though they are a part of it, as sad as that is to admit.

Are you really saying such things? You still don't understand that manga market is not a charity organization, but a business? We spend hours here discussing sales because it doesn't matter, really? Sorry, but you are behaving like an amateur and defending the indefensible. As far as I know we discuss the market here and the market is based on how much money it can extract from a series. How many times de we have to tell you that Gintama may be popular on the internet, but it didn't translate at all to sales and it was dropped by VIZ? Is it VIZ fault? Yes, they believed that the popularity would translate in sales, but it didn't. That's why internet popularity must be treated with caution.
Sales matters for fans as much as to the publishers because it is what gauges your favorite series survival. What do you think Jump TOCs are? A measure of how much a given series contributes to the sales of the magazine. If a series doesn't position well, it is not contributing much, advertisement for it will not be profitable and it is canceled. ESJ is the same, they do make a poll every week to see how the series are popular. Do you think they decided to bring TPN volumes because of its popularity on the internet? Of course not, they have their own data, weeks and weeks of polls. TPN was released since the beginning by VIZ because they bet on it, VIZ likes to bet, as you should know, but it not always goes well, most of the time it doesn't, with TPN is going well. TPN is probably going well, but VIZ doesn't measure it by how much buzz it has on the internet, got it? It is not the most valuable data they have by far.

 

[Scruffy8642]

Right, well this is getting nowhere. We obviously have different mindsets on the matter. No point in dragging this out further. Just one last thing:

ToG is highly ranked on most manga websites and if something like Noblese can get attention from studios then the ballgame isn't any different.

What do you even mean by this (score?) and where are you looking?

 

[ChocoBar9]

Right, well this is getting nowhere. No point in dragging this out further. Just one last thing:

What do you even mean by this (score?) and where are you looking?

Popularity and reception. Batoto has a score option and everything on the kiss media sites is ranked by popularity.

 

[Leoat12]

TIL I'm not actually a fan of any of the manga I read because I don't buy the volumes.

Publishers and authors wouldn't battle against piracy, if they were happy with it. I challenge you to ask on Twitter to an author who has Twitter if you are a fan of his work if you don't buy it and contribute at all.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Publishers and authors wouldn't battle against piracy, if they were happy with it. I challenge you to ask on Twitter to an author who has Twitter if you are a fan of his work if you don't buy it an contribute at all.

A few years back we were having idiots tweeting at Kubo about chapters that were not even released yet.

 

[xAsum0x]

I kinda expect TPN to be a hit when it's anime drops though, cause it's pretty highly praised by everyone who reads it, and has that shock value and twists to hook ppl.

I don't feel the same for Kimetsu no Yaiba though.

 

[Nakura]

I think The Promised Neverland could likely overtake My Hero Academia in sales when the anime arrives.

 

[Doughboy]

I think what the point people are making is let's wait for the first volume to drop and see where it ranks in the sales category then we can take general discussion that's on Reddit and YouTube into full account. It's nothing wrong with using that as an idea of the reception but wait until it gets to the west before using that purely as it's only basis to judge popularity.

 

[shoyoboyo]

Publishers and authors wouldn't battle against piracy, if they were happy with it. I challenge you to ask on Twitter to an author who has Twitter if you are a fan of his work if you don't buy it and contribute at all.

Can't write Japanese, but Google translate should do.

I kinda expect TPN to be a hit when it's anime drops though, cause it's pretty highly praised by everyone who reads it, and has that shock value and twists to hook ppl.

This is all I was trying to say. I don't even know why there's an argument about whether or not Neverland is popular or not.