Hangout Akatsuki no Yona Hangout Thread

[Mini_kinkin]

But they have fought against entire armies in the manga (in the Fire Tribe Arc, for instance). By convincing three people to follow her (Kija didn't need convincing), Yona pretty much got a private army. It's an edge that no other character in the manga has, so it makes her achievements weak in comparison to things achieved by characters who don't get such a special treatment.

No, we can also speculate based off the condition of the world that manga showed us. And I'm not saying that Su-won wouldn't have had a harder time succeeding, or that the outcome would be exactly the same. But take the dragons out, and Su-won is still an active and influential character, and Yona becomes just her archery and fencing skills. Ah, and she also got Hak.

But Soo-Won has everyone under his command too and Yona has one private army? Seems to me that Soo-Won has the clear edge here? And he clearly took the throne by force and not by right? He even coerced the wind tribe into following him? Even if he is doing well now for the country...he didn't exactly do it in a proper way.

Based on the world the manga showed us - the dragons and Soo-Won worked together to reach their goals for Kouka. Okay let's take the dragons out for arguments sake.

If Hak wanted...he could have made the wind tribe rebel and not agree to Soo-Won as king. Hak could have joined forces with Xing who hate Soo-Won. So yes, having Hak is a big advantage to Yona. Without the Wind tribe's consent Soo-Won would not have become king and without the wind tribe Kouka is even more vulnerable to threat by outside forces.

Now if Yona wasn't Hiryuu and the dragons didn't exist, perhaps she wouldn't have been protected all her life in the castle by Il. It is pretty obvious now that Il purposely hid her because she is Hiryuu. Maybe instead she would have turned to books and learnt more about the country. Because she is Hiryu's reincarnation, she always tries to tread the path of peace and not revenge. If she wasn't, and when Soo-Won kicked her out, she could have plotted many different ways of revenge with Hak, the wind tribe, Xing even Kai. Many other scenarios that could have affected Soo-Won's position and influence. Causing several more problems for Soo-Won than he already had to deal with.

I can think of many more things based on variables which do not exist. Bringing me back to my point, it is precisely because Yona is who she is and because of the dragons that Soo-Won is able to peacefully rule the country and get magical help that saves his valuable resources and also take complete credit for every victory won. Well until recently where Yona finally got credit for helping eradicate Nadai.

 

[@Aylinn]

But Soo-Won has everyone under his command too and Yona has one private army? Seems to me that Soo-Won has the clear edge here? And he clearly took the throne by force and not by right? He even coerced the wind tribe into following him? Even if he is doing well now for the country...he didn't exactly do it in a proper way.

I think Aniela means that Yona has people under her who are magically bound to her while Su-won has not. He has people following him because of his charisma, skills, because they believe he can be a better King than Il, etc.

While Su-won has a lot of people under his command too, everything indicates that it something he achieved after years of effort and because of his skills. We know that he was learning about war strategies, etc. and he still needed to earn Gun-Tae’s respect and did it by using his wit and knowledge. Besides, even if he took the throne by force, he still must have put effort into planning and organising everything. And he did a really good job by making all the palace guards to be on his side. Generally, they are the ones who are picked up most carefully, since they are responsible for the King’s safety in case of coups for example.

As for the dragons, they did join Yona awfully quickly, so a good argument can be made that the magical bond is a deciding factor here. I mean how many boys would leave their family, friends, etc to follow a teenage girl whom they barely know, they knew her like for few days after all, and with whom they have no common goal? I think that not many.

In Yona’s case only Shin-ah is plausible as it would not be strange that someone like him would attach himself to the first person that showed him some warmth.

This is a problem that she doesn’t have a clearer goal, because generally it is something that unites a group of people: like throwing a dangerous magical ring into a volcano or defeating a bad wizard. The members of the team can have different reasons to want to do it, but they still have a common goal. The four dragons don’t have it. They just follow Yona because she is Hiryuu, so they are basically Yona’s followers.

I can think of many more things based on variables which do not exist. Bringing me back to my point, it is precisely because Yona is who she is and because of the dragons that Soo-Won is able to peacefully rule the country and get magical help that saves his valuable resources and also take complete credit for every victory won. Well until recently where Yona finally got credit for helping eradicate Nadai.

I think he would rule peacefully the country anyway, he has potential to achieve it even if Yona didn’t exist, but I agree he got some magical help that saved his resources. However, even without the dragons he is still an intelligent, knowledgeable and skilled person, something that we have seen allowed him to be successful in many situations, while Yona without the dragons is an unskilled/poorly skilled and ignorant princess who has an average intelligence. It is quite clear who would have bigger chances to fare better without the dragons.

 

[Aniela]

I think Aniela means that Yona has people under her who are magically bound to her while Su-won has not. He has people following him because of his charisma, skills, because they believe he can be a better King than Il, etc.

Yes, that. And also, because they possess magical abilities that make them a small private army, Yona gained an edge for which Su-won had to murder Il without having to bloody her hands, or pretty much much effort. If Su-won could convince four people and gain so much fighting power, then perhaps he wouldn't have to kill Il. Su-won moves within an ordinary human's boundaries - a noble's, but nonetheless - but Yona is presented with options that no other character gets. If it was a world were magic was a commonplace and just another asset anybody can reach for (aka "Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu"), then it would be different.

Which is why I prefer pretty much any character (Lili, Tao, heck, even Kouren) over Yona.

Now if Yona wasn't Hiryuu and the dragons didn't exist, perhaps she wouldn't have been protected all her life in the castle by Il. It is pretty obvious now that Il purposely hid her because she is Hiryuu. Maybe instead she would have turned to books and learnt more about the country. Because she is Hiryu's reincarnation, she always tries to tread the path of peace and not revenge. If she wasn't, and when Soo-Won kicked her out, she could have plotted many different ways of revenge with Hak, the wind tribe, Xing even Kai. Many other scenarios that could have affected Soo-Won's position and influence. Causing several more problems for Soo-Won than he already had to deal with.

I can think of many more things based on variables which do not exist. Bringing me back to my point, it is precisely because Yona is who she is and because of the dragons that Soo-Won is able to peacefully rule the country and get magical help that saves his valuable resources and also take complete credit for every victory won. Well until recently where Yona finally got credit for helping eradicate Nadai.

There's difference because we don't know if Il kept Yona under the rug because she was Hiryuu, or if it would have happened anyway. It's a baseless speculation; we can just as well presume that then Junam would have chosen Yu-hon to be the king, and the country wouldn't have been in ruin in the first place. On the other hands, in terms of both the Nadai Incident, the Fire Tribe's Rebellion and several others we know why the characters were doing an why, and also what were the enemies doing. I'm using a variables that exists, and just pulling the dragons out from the events. In the Fire Tribe's Arc I still see Su-won winning, with the Earth Tribe coming to attack the enemy from behind, and the Nadai Incident the same, for the reasons I laid out in one of the previous posts. It's actually all the more easier, because Su-won's plans didn't even include the supernatural aid of the dragons, and if he believed in the success, then I see no reason to disagree.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

I think Aniela means that Yona has people under her who are magically bound to her while Su-won has not. He has people following him because of his charisma, skills, because they believe he can be a better King than Il, etc.

While Su-won has a lot of people under his command too, everything indicates that it something he achieved after years of effort and because of his skills. We know that he was learning about war strategies, etc. and he still needed to earn Gun-Tae’s respect and did it by using his wit and knowledge. Besides, even if he took the throne by force, he still must have put effort into planning and organising everything. And he did a really good job by making all the palace guards to be on his side. Generally, they are the ones who are picked up most carefully, since they are responsible for the King’s safety in case of coups for example.

As for the dragons, they did join Yona awfully quickly, so a good argument can be made that the magical bond is a deciding factor here. I mean how many boys would leave their family, friends, etc to follow a teenage girl whom they barely know, they knew her like for few days after all, and with whom they have no common goal? I think that not many.

In Yona’s case only Shin-ah is plausible as it would not be strange that someone like him would attach himself to the first person that showed him some warmth.

This is a problem that she doesn’t have a clearer goal, because generally it is something that unites a group of people: like throwing a dangerous magical ring into a volcano or defeating a bad wizard. The members of the team can have different reasons to want to do it, but they still have a common goal. The four dragons don’t have it. They just follow Yona because she is Hiryuu, so they are basically Yona’s followers.

I think he would rule peacefully the country anyway, he has potential to achieve it even if Yona didn’t exist, but I agree he got some magical help that saved his resources. However, even without the dragons he is still an intelligent, knowledgeable and skilled person, something that we have seen allowed him to be successful in many situations, while Yona without the dragons is an unskilled/poorly skilled and ignorant princess who has an average intelligence. It is quite clear who would have bigger chances to fare better without the dragons.

The first 40 or so chapters of the manga are Yona trying to get the dragons to side with her...but okay if you think it's just the dragon blood then there is nothing more I can say to convince you. Maybe Lili and Tae-Jun also had some drops of dragon blood to side with her over Soo-Won in times of crisis. Guess Kouren also has some dragon blood since she respects Yona now - must not be that Yona is inspiring her or anything - but I know the arguments you will present for this so lets not go there again :P. Also Yona has a goal - to correct the wrong doings of her dad in any small way she can.

Yona being an unskilled poorly trained princess - if we remove her being Hiryuu from her I still believe that she would not be so protected and would have learnt more about the country. It's not like Yona has poor intelligence - it's just that she was ignorant. We can see she grasps situations pretty quickly while on the move and at least has a basic understanding of what Il has done wrong to the country. It's not even been a year until all these events unfolded and she has learnt a whole lot fairly quickly. And like I said, she could have aways extracted revenge with the Wind Tribe, Xing and Hak and this could have been an interesting revenge saga instead of a fantasy/romance. But it's a different story.

Plus from a story point of view you need both perspectives to make it interesting. The story of a saga of Soo-Won making Kouka better does not appeal to me at all without another dimension of Yona and her dragons. Soo-Won's character becomes this interesting because of his contrast with Yona's character and vice versa. After all, they both originate from the same author.

Yes, that. And also, because they possess magical abilities that make them a small private army, Yona gained an edge for which Su-won had to murder Il without having to bloody her hands, or pretty much much effort. If Su-won could convince four people and gain so much fighting power, then perhaps he wouldn't have to kill Il. Su-won moves within an ordinary human's boundaries - a noble's, but nonetheless - but Yona is presented with options that no other character gets. If it was a world were magic was a commonplace and just another asset anybody can reach for (aka "Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu"), then it would be different.

Which is why I prefer pretty much any character (Lili, Tao, heck, even Kouren) over Yona.

Like I said it took 40 chapters or so to collect all the dragons...so...I saw an effort there but maybe everyone doesn't see it. Soo-Won had it easier precisely because Il was such a bad king and people were willing to rebel against him. The coup and what not was not a real challenge because Il sucked as a king and people wanted him gone. his actual effort was after Il died...but by that time he already had a kingdom at his disposal. I will not undermine all of his efforts in studying before he became King though, neither his efforts in getting Earth Tribe to he side. Though I will say Yona had to make a larger effort in living and finding the dragons and making them believe in her than the coup.

There's difference because we don't know if Il kept Yona under the rug because she was Hiryuu, or if it would have happened anyway. It's a baseless speculation; we can just as well presume that then Junam would have chosen Yu-hon to be the king, and the country wouldn't have been in ruin in the first place. On the other hands, in terms of both the Nadai Incident, the Fire Tribe's Rebellion and several others we know why the characters were doing an why, and also what were the enemies doing. I'm using a variables that exists, and just pulling the dragons out from the events. In the Fire Tribe's Arc I still see Su-won winning, with the Earth Tribe coming to attack the enemy from behind, and the Nadai Incident the same, for the reasons I laid out in one of the previous posts. It's actually all the more easier, because Su-won's plans didn't even include the supernatural aid of the dragons, and if he believed in the success, then I see no reason to disagree.

Then what about Kin province where all those Kai soldiers attacked when no Kouka soldiers were around? Or finding out about the Iza seeds due to which the firetribe is regaining good footing? And the fact that Yona and bandits completely turned those cruel firetribe soldiers around? I don't see Soo-Won doing these things on his own. Is only the big picture important?

Plus as someone else pointed out, she always seemed to be everywhere before him.

And we can't pull the dragons out without saying Yona won't be Hiryuu and then not assuming the things I assumed. This way nothing changes for Soo-Won but obviously things would change for Soo-Won if Yona wasn't Hiryuu since you spoke about who is an influential character. Yona could have become influential in other ways if not for the dragons if the author wanted...like Chang An in Song of the Long March.

Update: I also thought of this - because of Yona and the dragons Soo-Won's process of solving things within the Kingdom were greatly expedited. If not for them - things would have delayed and Kouka is under constant threat. Soo-Won always stresses on the urgency of fortifying the Kingdom against external threat, so clearly the dragons have helped hasten the process. Who knows what delays would create what threat for Kouka.

 

[@Aylinn]

The first 40 or so chapters of the manga are Yona trying to get the dragons to side with her...but okay if you think it's just the dragon blood then there is nothing more I can say to convince you. Maybe Lili and Tae-Jun also had some drops of dragon blood to side with her over Soo-Won in times of crisis. Guess Kouren also has some dragon blood since she respects Yona now - must not be that Yona is inspiring her or anything - but I know the arguments you will present for this so lets not go there again :P. Also Yona has a goal - to correct the wrong doings of her dad in any small way she can.

Yona being an unskilled poorly trained princess - if we remove her being Hiryuu from her I still believe that she would not be so protected and would have learnt more about the country. It's not like Yona has poor intelligence - it's just that she was ignorant. We can see she grasps situations pretty quickly while on the move and at least has a basic understanding of what Il has done wrong to the country. It's not even been a year until all these events unfolded and she has learnt a whole lot fairly quickly. And like I said, she could have aways extracted revenge with the Wind Tribe, Xing and Hak and this could have been an interesting revenge saga instead of a fantasy/romance. But it's a different story.

Plus from a story point of view you need both perspectives to make it interesting. The story of a saga of Soo-Won making Kouka better does not appeal to me at all without another dimension of Yona and her dragons. Soo-Won's character becomes this interesting because of his contrast with Yona's character and vice versa. After all, they both originate from the same author.

But, Lily wanted to help her tribe, so she had a common goal with Yona. It was handled much better so I have no problem with her allying with Yona in the Water tribe. Tea-jun was easy to influence, since he was in love with her, but it is not like it is impossible, so I have no problem with it as well. Yun wanted to learn more about the world, so I have no problem with him either. As for Yona’s goal, she wants to help people and rectify her father’s deeds, but this is something she decided to do after seeing what a bad King her father was. She initially gathered the dragons to protect herself and Hak.

As for how much time it took her to gather the dragons, I am not interested in how many chapters she spent to convince them (technically speaking it is only around 25 chapters to gather all the dragons because they meet Ki-ja in chapter 16 and since Ki-ja didn’t need any convincing it is even less than this), but that each of them knew her for no longer than few days when they decided to go with her. As I said, I think it is improbable that a guy would leave like this everything to follow and protect a teenage girl he barely knows.

Actually, I like it that Su-won is way more competent than the main character and a good King. It sets this series apart from these stories where someone like Su-won would be an evil bastard that has a lust for power, which would be generic and boring.

Though I will say Yona had to make a larger effort in living and finding the dragons and making them believe in her than the coup.

About making them believe in her and not the coup, it doesn’t apply. They were not Su-won supporters or anything like this.
She didn’t have to make anything like this.

Then what about Kin province where all those Kai soldiers attacked when no Kouka soldiers were around? Or finding out about the Iza seeds due to which the firetribe is regaining good footing? And the fact that Yona and bandits completely turned those cruel firetribe soldiers around? I don't see Soo-Won doing these things on his own. Is only the big picture important?

It doesn’t mean that Su-won would not find another way to improve the situation or that he would not learn about Iza seeds eventually. Yes, Su-won would have more obstacles. It would likely take more time and more people would die, but it doesn’t mean that he would not succeed at making the country a better place. His strongest assets are his intelligence, his knowledge and skills, so there is a high chance that he would improve the situation even without the dragons.

Plus as someone else pointed out, she always seemed to be everywhere before him.

To which I pointed out that Su-won is limited by his kingly responsibilities and cannot roam freely like Yona does, which I think explains pretty well why Yona can reach places before him.

 

[Aniela]

Yona being an unskilled poorly trained princess - if we remove her being Hiryuu from her I still believe that she would not be so protected and would have learnt more about the country. It's not like Yona has poor intelligence - it's just that she was ignorant. We can see she grasps situations pretty quickly while on the move and at least has a basic understanding of what Il has done wrong to the country. It's not even been a year until all these events unfolded and she has learnt a whole lot fairly quickly. And like I said, she could have aways extracted revenge with the Wind Tribe, Xing and Hak and this could have been an interesting revenge saga instead of a fantasy/romance. But it's a different story.

But we don't know why Il didn't teach her anything, so we don't know if she would be raised differently if she weren't Hiryuu. It may well be that Il didn't teach her anything because she was a girl, and only men could become rulers in Kouka. Or he was just as inept at raising an heir as he was at ruling a country, and just spoiled her for no reason other than ill-interpreted fatherly love.

Like I said it took 40 chapters or so to collect all the dragons...so...I saw an effort there but maybe everyone doesn't see it. Soo-Won had it easier precisely because Il was such a bad king and people were willing to rebel against him. The coup and what not was not a real challenge because Il sucked as a king and people wanted him gone. his actual effort was after Il died...but by that time he already had a kingdom at his disposal. I will not undermine all of his efforts in studying before he became King though, neither his efforts in getting Earth Tribe to he side. Though I will say Yona had to make a larger effort in living and finding the dragons and making them believe in her than the coup.

I feel you miss the point. It's not about Yona's effort or the lack of thereof. I'll give it to Yona that she had to convince three of the dragons to follow her. I'm not saying that she didn't put any effort into anything, or, I dunno, that getting used to living out of the castle was easy. But she had an option that no other character had. It's just that - that she's the only one with magical aid and a prophecy in the world, so far as we know, bah, perhaps even with the Heavens on her side, like Zeno said in some recent chapter. If you took the supernatural away, Yona would stay with Hak and perhaps Yoon, and maybe she'd learn archery and swordplay too. Then if she went to fight against the Fire Tribe's rebellion, she'd be a single archer aided with a single fighter, not a force capable of venturing into the midst of the battlefield. Etc. etc. I struggle to think of a thing that she could've done if the dragons didn't exist. The Iza Seeds, maybe? I admit, I don't exactly remember how they got them.

This ties in tightly with the reason why I don't want Su-won to be Hiryuu. I don't want him to be a part of some grand Heaven's plan, or a Chosen One. In the world where it's exceptional, it's basically like cheating. I'm actually iffy about him being even just "the King" from the prophecy, because it already smells somewhat ChoseOneish.

Actually, I like it that Su-won is way more competent than the main character and a good King. It sets this series apart from these stories where someone like Su-won would be an evil bastard that has a lust for power, which would be generic and boring.

The same. I wouldn't be reading this manga if it wasn't for Su-won. It's this reversal of the common "big bad tyrant who who murdered the rightful king" trope that got me so engaged with the story. And there were clues very early on, which I picked upon, but the beginning made me think that Su-won would be given more pagetime than he's got so far, really. Well, I guess you can't have it all =.=

But if Su-won wasn't there, I wouldn't be reading it. Yona's journey is in no way unique, or interesting to me. I've seen it done over and over again, and while it's a better incarnation of the common tropes than some, well, those are still common tropes.

 

[lightningsha]

My impression of the whole 'Yona's effectiveness without the dragons' thing is that no she couldn't go toe-to-toe with Soo-won in terms of leadership, planning, influence, etc when it comes to righting conflicts around Kouka if she didn't have the dragons at this point in time.

However as @Mini_kinkin pointed out, she has the charisma (which frankly I was never impressed with Soo-won's charisma), strength of mind, love of her countrymen, and knows how to prioritize the needs of a country over her personal needs. These are all completely independent of whether she had the dragons or not. She has the makings of a good leader on her character alone.

But the reason she has been as influential and effective as Soo-won so far in the manga is no doubt because of her supernatural dragon warriors. The dragons are Yona's head start. If she didn't have the dragons she would need a different head start. And that would have be years of political education and training like Soo-won got.

What I see, are three entire panels devoted to Zeno's reaction. Half of the next page is still Zeno and Su-won's mild surprise, suggesting that he's got no idea what prompted Zeno's reaction. Overall it take about one and half pages. Now, a few things:
1. Space on manga's page is precious. If it wasn't super important, I doubt the mangaka would devote three panels to something that can be drawn in one.
2. If Zeno indeed stalked Yona from such a proximity that he could actually watch her and whoever she met with, then he should have been in a position where one of them and/or someone else could see him.
3. Zeno's expression seems too dreamy to me to be pure surprise at seeing an enemy. If he knew that Su-won tried to kill Yona, then he should be alarmed, at least for a moment. He doesn't seem alarmed to me.

I mean, it's not like I enjoy playing devil's advocate. But this is what I saw

Hmm I can see your perspective now. It's true that those three panels were supposed to hint something significant, but keep in mind that this was all before we knew Zeno was a lot more than he seemed. Before we were supposed to assume Zeno was an eccentric young, carefree dragon wanderer. We weren't supposed to know yet that he was one of the original dragons, 2000+ years old, and not someone who has watched Yona and co. in different stages of growth since they were kids. Putting emphasis on Zeno's reaction at that time would both entail that he recognized Soo-won (as both king of Kouka and a friend who betrayed Yona), and that Zeno was a lot more than he seemed. Which we later find out he was.
You could be right too and maybe Soo-won does have some sort of supernatural aura or something. It could be interpreted that way I guess. I'm just still not convinced. I need more substantial evidence. Perhaps because it's hard to change my initial impression.

I am convinced without a doubt that Zeno knew exactly what Soo-won's face looked like beforehand though.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

But, Lily wanted to help her tribe, so she had a common goal with Yona. It was handled much better so I have no problem with her allying with Yona in the Water tribe. Tea-jun was easy to influence, since he was in love with her, but it is not like it is impossible, so I have no problem with it as well. Yun wanted to learn more about the world, so I have no problem with him either. As for Yona’s goal, she wants to help people and rectify her father’s deeds, but this is something she decided to do after seeing what a bad King her father was. She initially gathered the dragons to protect herself and Hak.

Yes but how would she have had a goal if she was ignorant? Her father kept her in a bubble. You said she had no goal, so I pointed out that she did get a goal and was working towards a goal once she knew about the situation.

As for how much time it took her to gather the dragons, I am not interested in how many chapters she spent to convince them (technically speaking it is only around 25 chapters to gather all the dragons because they meet Ki-ja in chapter 16 and since Ki-ja didn’t need any convincing it is even less than this), but that each of them knew her for no longer than few days when they decided to go with her. As I said, I think it is improbable that a guy would leave like this everything to follow and protect a teenage girl he barely knows.

But Shin-Ah and Zeno don't have anyone, and Jae-Ha literally left after he was convinced. He tried to fight the dragon blood off at first.

Actually, I like it that Su-won is way more competent than the main character and a good King. It sets this series apart from these stories where someone like Su-won would be an evil bastard that has a lust for power, which would be generic and boring.

Yes it is true Soo-Won is a good king and does face an internal conflict when it comes to Yona and Hak which gives him depth. But if we think of a story as Soo-Won for a protagonist instead of an antagonist it would be very boring for me. This is because:

1) He is expressionless most of the time - has an air of knowing it all - which is fine except we never know his inner thoughts either.
2) He has had very little character growth so far compared to other characters. He was born with charisma, intelligence etc. etc. and so far I haven't seen much change in him.
3) His point of view is almost always pessimistic including about his own resolve when he said he doesn't intend to "live peacefully". If we see the sacrifices his character needed to make in comparison to Yona, he has had it much better.
4) He rarely struggles or faces challenges

Which is why I think you need a character like Yona as a protagonist who is a contrast to his personality and makes his character more interesting. Dark and brooding characters only become more interesting when they have happy and optimistic rivals.

About making them believe in her and not the coup, it doesn’t apply. They were not Su-won supporters or anything like this.
She didn’t have to make anything like this.

Soo-Won has royal lineage and is Yu-Hon's son which automatically made some people support him. Though others like Geun-Tae had to be convinced after the coup and I respect how he got him to his side.

It doesn’t mean that Su-won would not find another way to improve the situation or that he would not learn about Iza seeds eventually. Yes, Su-won would have more obstacles. It would likely take more time and more people would die, but it doesn’t mean that he would not succeed at making the country a better place. His strongest assets are his intelligence, his knowledge and skills, so there is a high chance that he would improve the situation even without the dragons.

Intelligence and knowledge - like I said, Yona was kept ignorant. If she was not that she lacked in intelligence or the ability to grasp things. It's been less than a year and she has already grasped a lot. One major problem with Yona is that she is righteous. If she wasn't so righteous then we could have had the Revenge-No-Yona series. She could have used Tae-Jun and Hak to rebel against Soo-Won.

Actually now I am wondering...why did Soo-Won wait only until he is king to improve the situation of Kouka? He was also of a royal descent right? And it seems to me he knew the problems around Kouka. It seems to me that he never tried to help or use his position or anything over all these years in those poverty stricken places. Whereas Yona is wasting no time in helping them though she is not even a princess anymore.

To which I pointed out that Su-won is limited by his kingly responsibilities and cannot roam freely like Yona does, which I think explains pretty well why Yona can reach places before him.

So? Soo-Won can delegate others on his behalf to do this can't he? If we are talking about mobility Soo-Won has a whole network of people at his disposal.

But we don't know why Il didn't teach her anything, so we don't know if she would be raised differently if she weren't Hiryuu. It may well be that Il didn't teach her anything because she was a girl, and only men could become rulers in Kouka. Or he was just as inept at raising an heir as he was at ruling a country, and just spoiled her for no reason other than ill-interpreted fatherly love.

Okay, will just have to wait and see what the manga says later.

I feel you miss the point. It's not about Yona's effort or the lack of thereof. I'll give it to Yona that she had to convince three of the dragons to follow her. I'm not saying that she didn't put any effort into anything, or, I dunno, that getting used to living out of the castle was easy. But she had an option that no other character had. It's just that - that she's the only one with magical aid and a prophecy in the world, so far as we know, bah, perhaps even with the Heavens on her side, like Zeno said in some recent chapter. If you took the supernatural away, Yona would stay with Hak and perhaps Yoon, and maybe she'd learn archery and swordplay too. Then if she went to fight against the Fire Tribe's rebellion, she'd be a single archer aided with a single fighter, not a force capable of venturing into the midst of the battlefield. Etc. etc. I struggle to think of a thing that she could've done if the dragons didn't exist. The Iza Seeds, maybe? I admit, I don't exactly remember how they got them.

Yes but my point is - all characters are currently written revolving around Yona having these dragons.

If we take away the dragons the characters would all be written differently and the outcomes would be different.

But, even if suppose, she is the same Yona with the same traits, it doesn't change the fact that she is charismatic and caring. She could have still gotten Tae-Jun and Lili to side with her and become friends with her. Tae-Jun and Lili are influential people who have resources on hand. Even without the dragons, Iza seeds could have happened through Yoon, She could have helped with Nadai eradication with Lili's resources, She could have swayed the firetribe around with Tae-Jun's resources. She could have used the wind tribe's resources in several situations. The dragons are a great force that have helped both Soo-Won and Yona to reach their goals. Eliminate them and it is still possible for BOTH with extra struggles and efforts to reach their goals.

This ties in tightly with the reason why I don't want Su-won to be Hiryuu. I don't want him to be a part of some grand Heaven's plan, or a Chosen One. In the world where it's exceptional, it's basically like cheating. I'm actually iffy about him being even just "the King" from the prophecy, because it already smells somewhat ChoseOneish.

I'm pretty sure he is the king though at this pint? :P. Like it or not, Soo-Won is tied by fate to the dragons. The argument of him being able to achieve things on his own aside- it is still a fact that the dragons have been aiding him in every arc.

And according to the prophecy the King will be protected by the red dragon and four dragons so that point should come soon too.

Also your logic about not liking Yona because she is the only person with a magical edge? :P Isn't that a little unfair since the whole story revolves around this? Plus it's not like she is using these special magical dragons for her own selfish gain. She is actually using them for her country. Anyway to each their own here.

But if Su-won wasn't there, I wouldn't be reading it. Yona's journey is in no way unique, or interesting to me. I've seen it done over and over again, and while it's a better incarnation of the common tropes than some, well, those are still common tropes.

Oh well I have also seen similar brooding, genius antagonist over and over again (Vegeta, Sasuke), though Soo-Won is a better version, but I have not seen many female shoujo leads like Yona, that to in a romance shoujo, so I wouldn't read this story if it weren't for Yona- And ofc Hak plays a big role. But I still think both Soo-Won and Yona are important to take the story forward.

 

[@Aylinn]

Actually now I am wondering...why did Soo-Won wait only until he is king to improve the situation of Kouka? He was also of a royal descent right? And it seems to me he knew the problems around Kouka. It seems to me that he never tried to help or use his position or anything over all these years in those poverty stricken places. Whereas Yona is wasting no time in helping them though she is not even a princess anymore.

We don’t know if he didn’t try to help and he wanted to have revenge on his uncle, so helping the country was not the only reason. Secondly, doing something akin to what Yona is doing would be far less effective under a bad King like Il. For example: in Awa Su-won is the one who chose Kum-ji's replacement. If Su-won was a bad King like Il who lacks competence and chose someone no better than Kum-ji then all Yona’s effort would be in vain. Chasing away nadai dealers would make no sense if the King didn’t ensure they are not going return and so on.

Oh well I have also seen similar brooding, genius antagonist over and over again (Vegeta, Sasuke), though Soo-Won is a better version, but I have not seen many female shoujo leads like Yona, that to in a romance shoujo, so I wouldn't read this story if it weren't for Yona- And ofc Hak plays a big role. But I still think both Soo-Won and Yona are important to take the story forward.

In shonens characters are often not very interesting. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is a story about intelligent people in the main roles and their characterization is quite good.

 

[aya07]

Actually now I am wondering...why did Soo-Won wait only until he is king to improve the situation of Kouka? He was also of a royal descent right? And it seems to me he knew the problems around Kouka. It seems to me that he never tried to help or use his position or anything over all these years in those poverty stricken places. Whereas Yona is wasting no time in helping them though she is not even a princess anymore.

i think the reason suwon didn't do anything about the sorry state of kouka during il's reign was he was trying to keep a low profile. this is just guessing, but he was trying to project a facade, wasn't he? he was trying to project this image of an easy going, weak, sort of clueless, harmless guy? and he has succeeded, hasn't he? a lot of people underestimated him and they more or less paid for it. i think he wanted to blindside il and everybody else. i've already mentioned this in another post in mangafox, but this really reminds me of damdeok of taewangsasingi (the story of the first king's four gods loosely based on the legend of goguryeo's great king). maybe in a way suwon thought it was for his protection, too? like il might assassinate him if il saw that suwon was this competent, charismatic leader and thought he was after the throne? suwon did believe/know that il killed his father so i don't think it's a stretch if suwon believed il was somewhat a threat to his life, too.

anyway, about yona being always one step ahead of suwon and suwon eventually solving all those problems anyway without yona and co's help. i think that's true as well. even if yona and co weren't there, suwon would have eventually found solutions to those problems. suwon would make the necessary plans and execute them perfectly and someday he would eventually correct the situation. but i think taejun best summed up the situation in this scenario. for some people, someday is too late. i just love that scene when he said that to his brother. i thought that scene was very powerful. yes, suwon would have done something about it no doubt. but for some people, like those girls being kidnapped in awa, the starving and sick people being maltreated in the fire tribe, those people who were about to be slaughtered by the soldiers defeated by kouka army in the town near the earth tribe, without yona and co, it would have been too late for those people. planning and studying the situation are absolutely crucial to make the right policies to help correct the problem, but in the meantime, there has to be contingency/emergency/first aid plans installed to help those who direly need it. i think suwon might have lacked in this aspect. or maybe i'm asking too much? heck, we're in the 21st century and a lot of places still don't have this sort of emergency plans.

anyway, i agree with you, i also think one of suwon's problems was that he seems to have a problem delegating tasks. it seems like he just doesn't have enough people he trusts to help him investigate the situation and execute his plans. like with the problem in awa, couldn't he have done something about it earlier? it seems like he has to go there himself to solve the problem. yes, its necessary that he go down to the ground to see the situation himself, but if he has to do this all the time, this is going to be terribly time consuming and inefficient. it's like he had to deal with the problems one by one personally instead of implementing strategies to simultaneously deal with the various problems. like, couldn't he have done something with the water tribe problem much earlier while he's also dealing with the awa problem? even if it's just sort of first aid? like maybe, implement stricter rules for entering the territory to help control the flow of nadai into the ports. but there was no indication of that, was there? it seems suwon hadn't done anything about it until that arc. it seems like despite the resources at his disposal, his pace was as slow as yona's.

anyway, another gripe i have with suwon is probably that zeno arc. why hadn't suwon seen the possibility of stragglers wrecking havoc to the newly acquired villages? was that some plot device just to make zeno reveal his powers and all? or was it proof that yeah, even suwon couldn't predict everything. i don't know. guess in a way it felt a little irresponsible. shouldn't he have left some soldiers at the new border for at least some time just to make sure everything's safe and okay? this type of raiding after war was not unusual after all, shouldn't he have foreseen it and done something about it?

so yeah, i guess in some ways, we really couldn't accuse suwon of being perfect. i think he has already exhibited a number of flaws. and i thought that was okay, too. have i gone off topic and just started rambling? XD

 

[Mini_kinkin]

@aya07

Welcome here !

Actually what you said about Soo-Won makes sense. He wanted people to underestimate him so probably that's why he didn't do anything.

Also, yes, in the bigger picture sure Soo-Won would have done everything according to his plan. But you put it really well...Yona and crew were there for those people at those time. Without Yona and crew those people would be in trouble. Especially during Zeno arc. We can't dismiss all of Soo-Won's mistakes as a plot device. Fact is that he should have stationed soldiers there.

@Aylinn

Anyway, yes a bad king would render stuff ineffective I agree with you there. But going around poor areas and helping out once in a while would not hurt. It was never shown he did this.

 

[Aniela]

Hmm I can see your perspective now. It's true that those three panels were supposed to hint something significant, but keep in mind that this was all before we knew Zeno was a lot more than he seemed. Before we were supposed to assume Zeno was an eccentric young, carefree dragon wanderer. We weren't supposed to know yet that he was one of the original dragons, 2000+ years old, and not someone who has watched Yona and co. in different stages of growth since they were kids. Putting emphasis on Zeno's reaction at that time would both entail that he recognized Soo-won (as both king of Kouka and a friend who betrayed Yona), and that Zeno was a lot more than he seemed. Which we later find out he was.
You could be right too and maybe Soo-won does have some sort of supernatural aura or something. It could be interpreted that way I guess. I'm just still not convinced. I need more substantial evidence. Perhaps because it's hard to change my initial impression.

I am convinced without a doubt that Zeno knew exactly what Soo-won's face looked like beforehand though.

Well, I like it your way more, so I won't argue further

I'm pretty sure he is the king though at this pint? :P. Like it or not, Soo-Won is tied by fate to the dragons. The argument of him being able to achieve things on his own aside- it is still a fact that the dragons have been aiding him in every arc.

And according to the prophecy the King will be protected by the red dragon and four dragons so that point should come soon too.

Also your logic about not liking Yona because she is the only person with a magical edge? :P Isn't that a little unfair since the whole story revolves around this? Plus it's not like she is using these special magical dragons for her own selfish gain. She is actually using them for her country. Anyway to each their own here.

There's a difference between being a king and being the prophesied 'King'. There're plenty of characters who are of noble or royal heirtage in the manga - Lily, Tao, Kouren, Yona, all the generals - so it doesn't make Su-won an exception in the cast.

And yes, I don't like Yona because by being the only one with a magical edge, she gets special treatment from the author. It's entirely authorial decision, so there's nothing 'unfair' about disliking it. She could've decided against including any magic and made Yona use her actual skills to solve problems, i. e. Iza Seeds. It's not like it would've been impossible... It's actually what Lili is doing. Alternatively, the author might have decided to make magic more common in the world, give it to villains and ordinary people too, and then Yona's edge wouldn't be unfair.

Oh well I have also seen similar brooding, genius antagonist over and over again (Vegeta, Sasuke), though Soo-Won is a better version, but I have not seen many female shoujo leads like Yona, that to in a romance shoujo, so I wouldn't read this story if it weren't for Yona- And ofc Hak plays a big role. But I still think both Soo-Won and Yona are important to take the story forward.

There's a difference between a function and a trope. Bashing Su-won for being an antagonist is like bashing Yona because well, every story has a main character. 'Brooding' or 'genius' are not tropes either. You missed the entire reversal point. Yona is boring because she's 'A Banished Heir to the Throne', and 'A Chosen One', and also 'A Wandering Hero'. I'd link TVTropes if I weren't on my phone. Also 'a spoiled noble turning into a heric good person upon witnessing the way normal people live', I don't remember the name. And some more, I'm pretty sure. Su-won's expected role in the scenario is that of a 'Big Bad Tyrant', but instead the author made him a good ruler. That's what makes him unique, not that he's genius or brooding (though he doesn't come across as brooding to me).

Now, I don't know about Vegeta, but Sasuke didn't reverse anything with his revenge-driven plot. If anything was a reversal in 'Naruto' that would be Itachi's revelation. Though given how little time it has on page and the way it was revealed, I'd qualify it more as a plot twist than an actual reversal.

[Just as a side note, if there's someone else who's searching for reversals of common fantasy tropes here, I recommend Brandon Sanderson's books. He's my favorite author as of now.]

I'm also not going to like Yona any more or less just because of the fact that she's female.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

There's a difference between being a king and being the prophesied 'King'. There're plenty of characters who are of noble or royal heirtage in the manga - Lily, Tao, Kouren, Yona, all the generals - so it doesn't make Su-won an exception in the cast.

And yes, I don't like Yona because by being the only one with a magical edge, she gets special treatment from the author. It's entirely authorial decision, so there's nothing 'unfair' about disliking it. She could've decided against including any magic and made Yona use her actual skills to solve problems, i. e. Iza Seeds. It's not like it would've been impossible... It's actually what Lili is doing. Alternatively, the author might have decided to make magic more common in the world, give it to villains and ordinary people too, and then Yona's edge wouldn't be unfair.

I really feel Soo-Won is the king though. What is the point of this prophecy if Soo-Won isn't a part of it? :P Well let's wait and see.

Ah well. I feel like if she was using her edge for her own selfish means then maybe I would dislike it. But hey, everyone can't like and dislike the same things right?

There's a difference between a function and a trope. Bashing Su-won for being an antagonist is like bashing Yona because well, every story has a main character. 'Brooding' or 'genius' are not tropes either. You missed the entire reversal point. Yona is boring because she's 'A Banished Heir to the Throne', and 'A Chosen One', and also 'A Wandering Hero'. I'd link TVTropes if I weren't on my phone. Also 'a spoiled noble turning into a heric good person upon witnessing the way normal people live', I don't remember the name. And some more, I'm pretty sure. Su-won's expected role in the scenario is that of a 'Big Bad Tyrant', but instead the author made him a good ruler. That's what makes him unique, not that he's genius or brooding (though he doesn't come across as brooding to me).

Now, I don't know about Vegeta, but Sasuke didn't reverse anything with his revenge-driven plot. If anything was a reversal in 'Naruto' that would be Itachi's revelation. Though given how little time it has on page and the way it was revealed, I'd qualify it more as a plot twist than an actual reversal.

[Just as a side note, if there's someone else who's searching for reversals of common fantasy tropes here, I recommend Brandon Sanderson's books. He's my favorite author as of now.]

I'm also not going to like Yona any more or less just because of the fact that she's female.

Hehe, I am not asking you to like Yona though, it's your call who you like.

Actually I didn't like Soo-Won at all in the beginning, but since reading posts on mangafox of you guys I opened my mind a little and now I can at least see another perspective and don't hate on him various reasons I did before and looked a little forward. Though some of his characteristics still irk me, I respect some of his decisions and acknowledge he is a king the country needs.

I don't know what tropes are, so I will look them up though I am talking about stereotypes and there are many brooding genius stoic stereotypes in mangas. I get the Yona trope - but I am drawn to such characters because somehow they give hope. This is why I always liked Harry Potter, Naruto, Katniss from Hunger Games, Luffy. In this world of sad reality, these characters give hope and never give up. Well that is my perspective anyway. Though one such character who I don't like who fits those tropes would probably be Daenarys- at least until book 5. I really love characters like Itachi and Snape too so if Soo-Won turns out to be an anti-hero I will eat all my words up XD.

 

[Aniela]

I really feel Soo-Won is the king though. What is the point of this prophecy if Soo-Won isn't a part of it? :P Well let's wait and see.

Ah well. I feel like if she was using her edge for her own selfish means then maybe I would dislike it. But hey, everyone can't like and dislike the same things right?

Hehe, I am not asking you to like Yona though, it's your call who you like.

Well, I'm not saying that he isn't part of the prophecy, I'm just saying I don't want him to be a part of it and why >.< Though I suspect being "the King" is still better than being a split reincarnation of Hiryuu or something =.=

And sure, I'm not asking you to suddenly stop liking Yona or something. I'm trying to explain why I don't like her, nothing more. And it's not like I dislike her (very much, at least), I actually kinda warmed up yo her starting from the Fire Tribe Arc up to the Forts Arc. Things went awry only lately, in my opinion.

Actually I didn't like Soo-Won at all in the beginning, but since reading posts on mangafox of you guys I opened my mind a little and now I can at least see another perspective and don't hate on him various reasons I did before and looked a little forward. Though some of his characteristics still irk me, I respect some of his decisions and acknowledge he is a king the country needs.

I don't know what tropes are, so I will look them up though I am talking about stereotypes and there are many brooding genius stoic stereotypes in mangas. I get the Yona trope - but I am drawn to such characters because somehow they give hope. This is why I always liked Harry Potter, Naruto, Katniss from Hunger Games, Luffy. In this world of sad reality, these characters give hope and never give up. Well that is my perspective anyway. Though one such character who I don't like who fits those tropes would probably be Daenarys- at least until book 5. I really love characters like Itachi and Snape too so if Soo-Won turns out to be an anti-hero I will eat all my words up XD.

Well, I guess this is why those tropes remain popular - many people like them, and they like optimistic heros. I now kinda worry about my own books (I aspire to be a writer), because I don't write characters like that, or at least not as my protagonists, so I don't know if I'll sell anything =.= Or even get published =.=

 

[@Aylinn]

anyway, i agree with you, i also think one of suwon's problems was that he seems to have a problem delegating tasks. it seems like he just doesn't have enough people he trusts to help him investigate the situation and execute his plans. like with the problem in awa, couldn't he have done something about it earlier? it seems like he has to go there himself to solve the problem. yes, its necessary that he go down to the ground to see the situation himself, but if he has to do this all the time, this is going to be terribly time consuming and inefficient. it's like he had to deal with the problems one by one personally instead of implementing strategies to simultaneously deal with the various problems. like, couldn't he have done something with the water tribe problem much earlier while he's also dealing with the awa problem? even if it's just sort of first aid? like maybe, implement stricter rules for entering the territory to help control the flow of nadai into the ports. but there was no indication of that, was there? it seems suwon hadn't done anything about it until that arc. it seems like despite the resources at his disposal, his pace was as slow as yona's.

If Kusanagi wanted, it can be fairly easily explained why Su-won came to check the situation himself. For example: in Awa’s case Kum-ji was a corrupted official who didn’t implement his orders, so Su-won upon learning that his instructions were not carried out came to check himself. Something similar may have happened in the Water Tribe. He might have given some orders to improve situation, but heard that there were no results, so he came to check himself.

However, first and foremost, I think Su-won checking on Awa and the Water tribe is done to make Yona and Su-won meet and make Hak and Su-won meet in the Water tribe. I mean if he delegated the task to someone else, we would not have those intensive meetings between them.

If Su-won were not going around and were delegating stuff on others what would be left to Kusanagi is showing his daily kingly duties, which would be boring to the majority of Yona fans. I seriously doubt that shoujo audience would be excited to see him read reports, introduce new policies, etc., so I think it is ok that he goes around a little bit and I take no issue with it.

I don't know what tropes are, so I will look them up though I am talking about stereotypes and there are many brooding genius stoic stereotypes in mangas. I get the Yona trope - but I am drawn to such characters because somehow they give hope. This is why I always liked Harry Potter, Naruto, Katniss from Hunger Games, Luffy. In this world of sad reality, these characters give hope and never give up. Well that is my perspective anyway. Though one such character who I don't like who fits those tropes would probably be Daenarys- at least until book 5. I really love characters like Itachi and Snape too so if Soo-Won turns out to be an anti-hero I will eat all my words up XD.

I can understand it, though I don’t like most of such shows as they are way too much on the naïve side for my test, so much it feels like giving a false hope. It is not even that I like sad and unhappy endings. I like happy endings, but when they are not naïve. Stories like Monster, Utena, Mawaru Penguindrum, Gatchaman Crowds Insight, which all have a happy, but not a naïve ending where love/friendship, etc. conquers all, are much more right up my ally.

In the beginning it seemed to me like Yona may go for something like this, something optimistic, but not so naïve. However, after recent chapters I am not so sure anymore.

 

[aya07]

If Kusanagi wanted, it can be fairly easily explained why Su-won came to check the situation himself. For example: in Awa’s case Kum-ji was a corrupted official who didn’t implement his orders, so Su-won upon learning that his instructions were not carried out came to check himself. Something similar may have happened in the Water Tribe. He might have given some orders to improve situation, but heard that there were no results, so he came to check himself.

However, first and foremost, I think Su-won checking on Awa and the Water tribe is done to make Yona and Su-won meet and make Hak and Su-won meet in the Water tribe. I mean if he delegated the task to someone else, we would not have those intensive meetings between them.

If Su-won were not going around and were delegating stuff on others what would be left to Kusanagi is showing his daily kingly duties, which would be boring to the majority of Yona fans. I seriously doubt that shoujo audience would be excited to see him read reports, introduce new policies, etc., so I think it is ok that he goes around a little bit and I take no issue with it.

well, it wasn't shown or mentioned that he gave those orders/instructions, was it? it would have been good if they were shown, and it would have been simple and easy to work those into dialogues, but why weren't they? there weren't any, or were there? i might have just forgotten them XD. so i was under the impression that he didn't do any of those mechanisms to help even temporarily alleviate the situation. like in awa, when he saw yona again, he said he came to investigate because he heard kumji were doing something illegal, so he went and check for himself. he had to do it himself and he didn't seem to trust the information completely. he has to go see and assess the situation himself before he does anything, even just temporary solutions. in a way that's good, but if he has to do this with everything, check everything himself, before he makes a move (again, even just first-aid solutions) well that's going to be highly inefficient. the needed solutions and responses are going to be slow. but yes, i agree that those meetings are for the sake of plot. but since we're all seemed determined to take everything seriously and realistically in AnY, i'd say those are just inherently ineffective and inefficient method of ruling a country,

@aya07

Welcome here !

thank you!

 

[Aniela]

well, it wasn't shown or mentioned that he gave those orders/instructions, was it? it would have been good if they were shown, and it would have been simple and easy to work those into dialogues, but why weren't they? there weren't any, or were there? i might have just forgotten them XD. so i was under the impression that he didn't do any of those mechanisms to help even temporarily alleviate the situation. like in awa, when he saw yona again, he said he came to investigate because he heard kumji were doing something illegal, so he went and check for himself. he had to do it himself and he didn't seem to trust the information completely. he has to go see and assess the situation himself before he does anything, even just temporary solutions. in a way that's good, but if he has to do this with everything, check everything himself, before he makes a move (again, even just first-aid solutions) well that's going to be highly inefficient. the needed solutions and responses are going to be slow.

I feel that with Su-won we aren't shown many of his actions, but the author still presumes they happened off the scene, like with Su-won gaining knowlegde about the internal conflict in Xing. It sounded like he knew about it in the last chapter, even though at the beginnig of the arc it was established that he doesn't know much about Xing (his visit to Ougi). So apparently Kusa just assumed it happened even though it was never shown - similarily, Su-won might have tried to send someone else to investigate Awa, but it didn't work out.

But mainly I bet it was there for feels, not for plot consistency.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

Well, I'm not saying that he isn't part of the prophecy, I'm just saying I don't want him to be a part of it and why >.< Though I suspect being "the King" is still better than being a split reincarnation of Hiryuu or something =.=

And sure, I'm not asking you to suddenly stop liking Yona or something. I'm trying to explain why I don't like her, nothing more. And it's not like I dislike her (very much, at least), I actually kinda warmed up yo her starting from the Fire Tribe Arc up to the Forts Arc. Things went awry only lately, in my opinion.

Well, I guess this is why those tropes remain popular - many people like them, and they like optimistic heros. I now kinda worry about my own books (I aspire to be a writer), because I don't write characters like that, or at least not as my protagonists, so I don't know if I'll sell anything =.= Or even get published =.=

Yeah I get that. I like hero characters but I like complex and unique characters too. It depends on taste I guess. For example, as much as I liked Harry Potter - I also liked Gone Girl, Black Swan, The Departed...so you can see the difference in my taste :P. Since I am an aspiring writer too, I do try to avoid cliches (even though I like reading about hero characters) and try to give my main characters realistic flaws and shortcomings. And in all honestly writing negative or "antagonist" characters is the most fun.

I guess it depends on my mood at the time :P. If you have time look up this author called Keigo Higashino - my current fave - The Devotion of Suspect X - his characters are always amazing and he uses red herrings really well.

I can understand it, though I don’t like most of such shows as they are way too much on the naïve side for my test, so much it feels like giving a false hope. It is not even that I like sad and unhappy endings. I like happy endings, but when they are not naïve. Stories like Monster, Utena, Mawaru Penguindrum, Gatchaman Crowds Insight, which all have a happy, but not a naïve ending where love/friendship, etc. conquers all, are much more right up my ally.

In the beginning it seemed to me like Yona may go for something like this, something optimistic, but not so naïve. However, after recent chapters I am not so sure anymore.

Ahh I shall check some of these series out. Have you seen the Steins Gate anime? That's really nice with mostly all smart characters.

 

[@Aylinn]

Ahh I shall check some of these series out. Have you seen the Steins Gate anime? That's really nice with mostly all smart characters.

Yes, I have seen it and I think it was ok, though I don’t think it was anything special. It is not like am looking for smart characters. I am looking for a good story and complex characters. It is just that I hardly see them in shonens, which are generally more action-oriented and more often rely on characters that are like archetypes rather than actual people. I often like very much different kind of stories that do not rely on action so much like Kino no Tabi, Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu, Uchouten Kazoku, Haibane Renmei, 3-gatsu no Lion, Nodame Cantabile, Mawaru Penguindrum, Monster, Utena, Natsume Yuujinchou, etc.

I kept watching and reading Yona, because at the beginning the characters of Su-won and Yona looked promising. I am not really so interested in political stuff, I just don’t mind it if it is in the story, and I don’t really care about having politics in my stories contrary to how it may look like from my posts.

Hero stories are ok for me, but I don’t like when they seem to be set up in such a way to make the main character be successful no matter what and protect them from experiencing bigger failures, which is my issue with Yona. Utena is a hero story done right for me. When I compare them, it is quite obvious that Kusanagi goes easy on Yona who is righteous and has always the upper moral ground, which is a quite stark contrast to Utena who gets her illusion of righteousness crushed and naivety shoved down her throat.

And I don’t like how fate is here to make Yona’s life easier. I prefer shows like Mawaru Penguindrum where the main characters have fate against them and where they are desperately trying to avert their little dying sister’s fate and are failing on the way.

If at least in Yona it was more balanced and she had a bad luck that would spoil her plans sometimes or something like this.

 

[BlackVice]

Well it's funny you say that you dislike characters whom seem to have the author go easy on them and have them be successful no matter what. If that's your take on it then you shouldn't like Soo-won at all. He's literally being handed everything to him on a silver platter, most of with doesn't even require him to get involved or lift a finger. And so far, he hasn't failed once.

It seems like you forget that during the battle between the fire tribe and Soo-won, Yona was there to try and break things up. And she failed very early on trying to achieve that. There is your failure for the MC. Not everything that Yona does must result in failure. Otherwise why bother reading the manga if all you want is for the main character to fail over and over, and expect problems, that would require outside forces to help, to resolve themselves.