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popularity.Going with Berserk here.
In every category Berserk is better than Naruto.
And I am pretty pissed against Naruto for defeating Tokyo Ghoul.
popularity.Going with Berserk here.
In every category Berserk is better than Naruto.
And I am pretty pissed against Naruto for defeating Tokyo Ghoul.
Believe it!How the hell is Naruto still around?
The problem was that the point where Naruto's story was good was a looooong time in the past - I'd argue that it begun to get bad from as early as when Sasuke left Orochimaru.There was point though where Naruto's characters actually seemed like they were amazing.
You may get pass TG but not Berserk.Damn it, I'm late to the party. But you know, being late isn't exactly always a bad thing:
Really elated I got past Tokyo Ghoul, thank you for all the ones who voted Naruto But now, another Titan lies in our path:
So I'll take this up a notch Stay with me from the beginning to the ending of this post, and I promise Ill make it worth your time
I do have one confession though, I've never quite read Berserk. But, from what I've heard from its reputation, it has the appealing factor of being a dark and gritty manga, one that doesn't exactly pull its punches where its writing is concerned. I think that's a really good thing, not something you find commonly in literature, that's for one. But, what if I showed you that in it's own way, Naruto has it's own dark themes?
Themes
Genocide, mass murder and child soldiers
Surprised? Maybe, maybe not But, think back to the first arc of the series, along with these two guys, who were honestly the best way to start the series due to what they represented:
Zabuza and Haku
At first glance, they look like your run of the mill ruffian villains, who solely exist for the sake of being nothing but stepping stones for the protagonist in his quest to best. But, allow me to take you on this nostalgia trip.
Haku's backstoryMidway through his fight with Sasuke, he was revealed to also be from a special clan, which possessed a Bloodline Limit just like the Sharingan. You'd think this established him as a special snowflake, and a person to be respected and revered everywhere? Nope, think again. Unlike with the Uchiha, Those with Kekkei Genkai were regarded with suspicion by the people of Kiri and the wider Land of Water due to their efficiency during times of war. As such, persecution and even murder of anyone with a kekkei genkai was common; in the case of the Yuki clan (Which Haku is from), it no longer exists in an organised sense and its few surviving members live in secret, fearful of their abilities being discovered. He lived with his mother in secret, hiding their abilities from their father, but once their father realized the truth, he killed the mother, so Haku had to kill his own father in self defense.
Zabuza's backstory
Haku's caretaker, and the one person who believes Haku is actually useful, although only in regards to achieving his own ambitions. As I had stated in an earlier post, Zabuza was part of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen. But, the real story behind how this man became renown as the Demon of the Mist. In an era where Kirigakure, his home was known as the 'Bloody Mist Village', Zabuza was a Genin just like Naruto at the beginning of the story. But unlike Konoha where exams are held normally, here, students wishing to graduate had to fight to the death, and only those who survived could advance to the ranks of the ninja. So what does Zabuza do? He kills his entire graduating class, the custom being too shocking that it causes the immediate cancellation of the event. For Game of Thrones fans, remember [these guys](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Unsullied)? I get the same vibes from Zabuza's story.
Of course, once the custom is done away with, you'd think that was the end of it, right? Nope, think again. Danzo adopted the same method in his nurturing of the Root system, where he trained its members to lose their emotions by growing up as brothers from a young age, only to later be made to kill each other. This was done to kill any sense of sentiment or emotional attachment. Each member had a codename; even the members themselves apparently did not know their original names. And unlike the Hidden Mist Ninja, with Danzo, he made sure that each member of the organisation had a cursed seak imprinted on the back of their tongues, which when activated, would paralyse their entire body if they tried to speak anything about Danzō or the organisation, rendering them unable to speak or move.
The Kaguya Clan
Which Kimimaro was a member of. Now, I know this is a pretty small clan in the big scheme of things, but I think it's good to note that they were from the same village as Zabuza and Haku, and possessed a Kekkei Genkai which:
Think that makes them all powerful? Nope, on the contrary, it didn't. This clan once waged war against Kiri to quench their lust for battle, but were slaughtered by the village's superior forces.
The Uchiha Clan
Quite possibly one of the most powerful clans in the story, being there from the beginning and descended from the Sage of the Six Paths himself, the founder of Shinobi. Being a really gifted clan in their own right, you'd come to think that they were the ideal clan, one which every hidden village desired for themselves. With great power, comes great responsibility, but unfortunately they couldn't live up to the responsibility. Due to a combined decision from the Third Hokage, Hiruzen and the Village Elders, they decided this clan was too dangerous to let live, so they tasked a certain someone with finishing off the clan, at the cost of letting his little brother live:
This is probably what makes his stories one of the saddest ones in the series. At the tender age of 13, he had to climb to the top most position possible due to his family's expectations of him and was being used to spy on the Hokage and his family by both factions. When he was finally given the order, he brutally slayed every living relative he had in the village, aunts/uncles/ nephews, down to the last baby for actions they didn't commit. While he should have been treated as a hero for preventing the outbreak of a civil war and Konoha's destruction when another village would attack it at its weakest, he's branded a traitor and forced to flee with a bounty placed on his head.
I mean, this man had to kill his own parents....that's just....
Bonus Panels
So, this is just a teaser for what's to come But I do hope I managed to capture your interest to see how the rest of this will go
Stay tuned for more!
This, in my mind, was one of the worst parts of storytelling which Kishimoto did. It really made so little sense and turned the leaders of Konohagakure into what appears to be little more than blithering idiots.Quite possibly one of the most powerful clans in the story, being there from the beginning and descended from the Sage of the Six Paths himself, the founder of Shinobi. Being a really gifted clan in their own right, you'd come to think that they were the ideal clan, one which every hidden village desired for themselves. With great power, comes great responsibility, but unfortunately they couldn't live up to the responsibility. Due to a combined decision from the Third Hokage, Hiruzen and the Village Elders, they decided this clan was too dangerous to let live, so they tasked a certain someone with finishing off the clan, at the cost of letting his little brother live:
This is probably what makes his stories one of the saddest ones in the series. At the tender age of 13, he had to climb to the top most position possible due to his family's expectations of him and was being used to spy on the Hokage and his family by both factions. When he was finally given the order, he brutally slayed every living relative he had in the village, aunts/uncles/ nephews, down to the last baby for actions they didn't commit. While he should have been treated as a hero for preventing the outbreak of a civil war and Konoha's destruction when another village would attack it at its weakest, he's branded a traitor and forced to flee with a bounty placed on his head.
I mean, this man had to kill his own parents....that's just....
They were ostracized though, to the point where they were pushed to living outside the village, and the only saving grace they had was maintaining the Konoha Police Force, which just seems like a consolotion prize. This is a clan that was involved in founding the village, is that really something in order? The seeds for a coup were well in place, and the situation had gotten so severe to the point Shisui was planning to use Kotoamatsukami to quell the rebellion.This, in my mind, was one of the worst parts of storytelling which Kishimoto did. It really made so little sense and turned the leaders of Konohagakure appear to be little more than blithering idiots.
There was little excuse for what they did, as they could have easily dealt with the situation through diplomacy/arresting the plotters.
I still don't buy that the Uchiha clan was ever 'treated badly', nor that they were 'ostracised' any more than the Hyuuga were.
The (named) Uchiha were seen with awe throughout the first part of the story – before Sasuke buggered off to hunt down his brother.
They were given a very important role in peacekeeping and policing within the village (putting a clan you don't trust in a role of maintaining the peace is more than a little idiotic).
The idea that they were ever treated badly came so out off left-field that, at first, I believed it to be little more than a lie to misdirect Sasuke's rage and draw him against Konohagakure.
Itachi was yet another prime example of how Kishimoto took his potentially complex and interesting world, bent it over and screwed it.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Then I'll just power up moreYou may get pass TG but not Berserk.
Berserk is ahead in ever category you may mention about Naruto-plot,atmosphere,villains and characterisation,mystery everything.
There is nothing called "plot protection" here which even Naruto had.
That orange hair kid is going down nowThey were ostracized though, to the point where they were pushed to living outside the village, and the only saving grace they had was maintaining the Konoha Police Force, which just seems like a consolotion prize. This is a clan that was involved in founding the village, is that really something in order? The seeds for a coup were well in place, and the situation had gotten so severe to the point Shisui was planning to use Kotoamatsukami to quell the rebellion.
Also, remember Tobirama's conversation with Sasuke. He specifically told him the Uchiha know love more than any other clan, which is why they're highly unstable. A prime example of this is Obito literally going insane due to losing Rin, and deciding to take down the whole world with him.
But that's the thing, Itachi isn't regarded a hero, or rather, he shouldn't be. Naruto considers him a hero and everyone says he is a saint... but he's not and the character is well aware of that. Many of the things Itachi did are not as terrible as they seem because the ninja world is not our world and does not follow our moral code but no one can possibly justify what he did to Sauce in order to protect him or how he wanted to pull Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke, they were both horrible... those were plans that truly made Itachi a monster out of circumstances and traumas but a monster nonetheless... an anti-hero not a hero.
I say it again, Itachi is not a saint. He is at fault for many things and he decided many things that could be considered selfish while trying to be selfless.--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Then I'll just power up more
No more than the Hyuuga, Aburame, or Inuzuka clans wereThey were ostracized though, to the point where they were pushed to living outside the village,
To whom exactly?and the only saving grace they had was maintaining the Konoha Police Force, which just seems like a consolotion prize.
Yes, I am, unfortunately, all to aware of the almost complete re-working of the story which was done to suit the Uchiha Senju narative.This is a clan that was involved in founding the village, is that really something in order? The seeds for a coup were well in place, and the situation had gotten so severe to the point Shisui was planning to use Kotoamatsukami to quell the rebellion.
This genetically induced mental disease, which the Uchiha apparently suffered from, also came out of left-field.Also, remember Tobirama's conversation with Sasuke. He specifically told him the Uchiha know love more than any other clan, which is why they're highly unstable. A prime example of this is Obito literally going insane due to losing Rin, and deciding to take down the whole world with him.
Well if Naruto, a character with the emotional complexity of a toilet brush, thinks he is a saint, then he must surely be.Naruto considers him a hero and everyone says he is a saint...
Interesting,This, in my mind, was one of the worst parts of storytelling which Kishimoto did. It really made so little sense and turned the leaders of Konohagakure into what appears to be little more than blithering idiots.
There was little excuse for what they did, as they could have easily dealt with the situation through diplomacy/arresting the plotters.
I still don't buy that the Uchiha clan was ever 'treated badly', nor that they were 'ostracised' any more than the Hyuuga were.
The (named) Uchiha were seen with awe throughout the first part of the story – before Sasuke buggered off to hunt down his brother.
They were given a very important role in peacekeeping and policing within the village (putting a clan you don't trust in a role of maintaining the peace is more than a little idiotic).
The idea that they were ever treated badly came so out off left-field that, at first, I believed it to be little more than a lie to misdirect Sasuke's rage and draw him against Konohagakure.
I am afraid that I don't believe so.But i think you miss the main point about the destruction of the Uchiha clan.
A mild way of putting it, yes.You are right that the leaders were incompetent.
And you believe this likely?It is logical to arrest the plotters, but the plotters were the very leaders of the Uchiha clan, so there was a possibility that it would give the oposite effect and the rest of the Uchiha would go on a rampage
Then, why didn't Itachi (a genius ) just take out Danzo instead?But the main reason of the Uchiha destruction was that snake Danzo (god i hate that guy) who plotted behind the Hokage and elders backs, He alone was responsible for stopping Shisui and ultimately for the massacre mission. If i remember correctly though.
Not entirely, the seeds for Itachi not being entirely evil were already planted in part 1. We knew Jiraiya had a spy within the Akatsuki, who else would it be other than Itachi? Another Konoha ninja like him. In fact, I'd go farther and state that Itachi's initial explanation for killing the clan to Sasuke was quite probably the largest outlier that there was more to him than met the eye other than a typical run of the villain.The only reason it was seen as a consolation prize, is that Kishimoto decided he had to turn Itachi into a hero and therefore bullshitted it into becoming one.
It isn't about having the inherent right to leadership, Madara was supposed to be Hokage after Hashirama, but Izuna's death ended up affecting him more than what was initially portrayed. Hence why the mantle went to Tobirama, Hashirama's little brother. Madara's case is an outlier for why they shouldn't be in power, but that's no excuse to treat them differently. Keep in mind the Nine Tails attack on Konoha was also attributed to the Uchiha Clan, since the beast can be controlled by genjutsu, but was there any reason for them to be treated that way?The village is equally as guilty for the Uchiha dissatisfaction and not everything can be placed on them.Yes, the Uchiha did help in founding the village, but they were (from all the evidence we have – and not from the later introduced [although Sasuke never realised at the time] information) treated with respect, freedom, and were allowed a huge amount of responsibility.
They had no inherent right to leadership, anymore than the Hyuuga or Naara (or any other clan which later joined the village) did.
There were no seeds for a coup – other than, perhaps, a few power-hungry leaders within the Uchiha clan.
But isn't the Mangekyo Sharingan foreshadowing for this? You achieve greater power by killing your loved one/the death of your closest person. I don't think it's that much out of left field.This genetically induced mental disease, which the Uchiha apparently suffered from, also came out of left-field.
I am sorry, but I don't believe morality works like that.Many of the things Itachi did are not as terrible as they seem because the ninja world is not our world and does not follow our moral code
And why not?but no one can possibly justify what he did to Sauce in order to protect him or how he wanted to pull Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke, they were both horrible...
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
We didn't know enough about the workings of Akatsuki to know - it could well have been a ninja within the village of Amegakure. A village which worshiped Pain (the then leader of Akatsuki) as a god.Not entirely, the seeds for Itachi not being entirely evil were already planted in part 1. We knew Jiraiya had a spy within the Akatsuki, who else would it be other than Itachi?
Because at that point Itachi was little more than a murdering psychopath."I wanted to test my vessel."
Well, now we know him not to be, but at that point we had no reason not to believe so.Is he really that type of a character?
Because, again, at that point in the manga we had no reason to suspect that they could have beaten Jiraiya (a known member of the Sannin - the elite in Konohagakure).Plus for someone who wants to test out the extent of his abilities, why would he shy away from fighting Jiraiya with Kisame under the guise of "I'm not sure we can even beat him working together."
Again, before the revelation, we had no reason to feel that they ever were 'treated differently'.but that's no excuse to treat them differently.
By whom?Keep in mind the Nine Tails attack on Konoha was also attributed to the Uchiha Clan, since the beast can be controlled by genjutsu
Again, I fail to see how this is possible - and nothing in the manga up to that point ever suggested they had been treated badly, or had ever been dissatisfied.The village is equally as guilty for the Uchiha dissatisfaction and not everything can be placed on them.
Yes.But isn't the Mangekyo Sharingan foreshadowing for this? You achieve greater power by killing your loved one/the death of your closest person. I don't think it's that much out of left field.
I'm not justifying anything, none of those two acts are good, but the end result is the same. The village remains safe. Because that's what being a Shinobi is, unwavering loyalty to your village. Itachi is the perfect example of this, considering he still loved a village that treated him like dirt for saving them from a potential civil war.And why not?
If you can justify the brutal murder of a whole clan, why can't you justify Sasuke's mindrape?
In my mind, although reprehensible, it is no worse (in fact, I'd argue the murder of a whole clan is possibly worse).
Fair enough, but you have to admit, there's a thin line between fictional morality and real world morality. The real world has its own moral code, but with fiction the moral code is written depending on the story itself. I don't think you can put the two side and side comparing them. Picture this:No, I don't believe so - it is just now we have a greater understanding of morality.
Chevkov's Gun doesn't work like that. Admittedly, I also didn't expect that we'd learn more of who the Akatsuki's spy was, but it being Itachi makes perfect narrative sense. Keep in mind Jiraiya even learned Pain's location WITHOUT having ever been to Amegakure. How would a common ninja manage to rat this out? Considering the fact Pain keeps a tight leesh on all his villagers via his rain techique, the spy would have been ratted out ages ago if it was just a common foot soldier.We didn't know enough about the workings of Akatsuki to know - it could well have been a ninja within the village of Amegakure. A village which worshiped Pain (the then leader of Akatsuki) as a god.
And still an unexplored character in the grand scheme of things. He'd never even murdered anyone before the massacre.Because at that point Itachi was little more than a murdering psychopath.
And yet, Orochimaru, another member of the Sannin was also part of the Akatsuki as revealed to us a few chapters earlier. That should have at least given Kisame and the others an inkling of how strong the Akatsuki members were.Because, again, at that point in the manga we had no reason to suspect that they could have beaten Jiraiya (a known member of the Sannin - the elite in Konohagakure).
The village leaders at the time, Danzo, Homura and Koharu.By whom?
Who explicitly said that the Uchiha were responsible, before Itachi was retconned into a 'good' guy?
A further stage that depended on love, unlike other power ups in the series that largely required years of training for. I think the implications were pretty clear here imo.Yes.
Before, MS was just seen as a further stage for the sharingan - it was only later that it was attributed to this neurological disease.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Oh, I intend on covering this further along the lineAlso, we have seen what ostracization looks like in this manga.
It looks like a kid sitting on a swing by himself.
It looks like parents dragging their children away from a school child.
It looks like people whispering behind the kids back, enough that he realizes what is going on and acts up in response.
A kid who hasn't done anything wrong.
A kid whose parents sacrificed themselves and used him as little more than a tool to save the village (he is the reason why their village still exists and they can live in relative peace).
If you are going to try and criticize the citizens of Konohagakure for ostracizing someone, it is their treatment of Naruto which you should be looking at, not their hero-worshiping of the Uchiha.
Mainly due to the fact that Sasuke isn't really an emotionally stable character and partly due to the poor storytelling of the author.Why do you think Sasuke gets an identity crisis after Itachi's second death? A shinobi is a tool that merely exists for the village's safety, Zabuza himself alludes to this in his fight with Kakashi and Team Seven.
I think an interesting manga doesn't suffer this issue.Fair enough, but you have to admit, there's a thin line between fictional morality and real world morality. The real world has its own moral code, but with fiction the moral code is written depending on the story itself.
No, a ninja is meant to obtain information and solve missions.A ninja is supposed to kill everything. I mean Konoha sent HIM to war at the age of 4... and that is A+++ then?
Well, firstly, we knew from the trick which Sasori used on Yūra and Mukade that it was possible to install sleeper agents within one of the most powerful ninja villages – so we knew techniques did exist which could enable the spying on the inner workings of a very powerful group of ninjas.Admittedly, I also didn't expect that we'd learn more of who the Akatsuki's spy was, but it being Itachi makes perfect narrative sense. Keep in mind Jiraiya even learned Pain's location WITHOUT having ever been to Amegakure. How would a common ninja manage to rat this out? Considering the fact Pain keeps a tight leesh on all his villagers via his rain techique, the spy would have been ratted out ages ago if it was just a common foot soldier.
Ah, so a mass murdering psychopath isn't a mass murdering psychopath until he is revealed to be one then?And still an unexplored character in the grand scheme of things. He'd never even murdered anyone before the massacre.
Yes, but we don't know how much variation there was between Akatsuki members (in fact, we did, we knew that there was quite a large variation) nor between the 3 Sannin.And yet, Orochimaru, another member of the Sannin was also part of the Akatsuki as revealed to us a few chapters earlier. That should have at least given Kisame and the others an inkling of how strong the Akatsuki members were.
Is it possible to supply me with a chapter number for this quote?"Following the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox's attack, Konohagakure's leadership council began to suspect that the Uchiha were behind the attack due to the Sharingan's ability to control the beast."
After the fight, when Tobi was revealing everything to Sasuke.Is it possible to supply me with a chapter number for this quote?
Was it before or after the Itachi Sasuke fight?
Yeah, so from the part where the author begun to retcon in the Uchiha Senju storyline.After the fight, when Tobi was revealing everything to Sasuke.
From Chapter 399: