How to understand Observation Haki

[Hannibal Psyche]

I agree that the general rule is that a CoO user can only see premeditated actions. The situation with Enel confirms this. However it seems almost certain that Kata is an exception to the general rule as he can actually see the future unlike the average CoO user. His future sight is different than the average observation.

That's not how it works.

Just because it's Katakuri doesn't mean Oda makes exceptions.

It'll be like saying that just because it's Katakuri, seastone won't affect him even though it's a principle mechanic.

If Enel's Observation Haki cannot predict what Luffy will do when he's not thinking, then neither will Katakuri's.

His future insight is also not different, it's just able to see further than what we've seen. It's like saying Cracker's Armament Haki being harder than another character's means it works differently when it's a simple case of it just being stronger.

I say this because Kata was able to see Pudding crying in the future. Crying is a reflexive and not premeditated act. Pudding cried as a reaction to Sanji saying she was pretty even with her third eye. She did not make a premeditated decision to cry. How could she? She didn’t know Sanji would say that. Her breaking down was a reaction and not a premeditated thought.

The crying is not what is relevant. It's the fact she went on the ground is what is relevant and is what Katakuri is focused on. That isn't a reflexive action, but a consciously performed action, therefore, it is premeditated.

If Kata can only see premeditated actions how do you explain him seeing Pudding crying? Do you believe she made a premeditated decision to cry?

1. She was going to open her veil to show off her 3rd eyes as was the plan.
2. Sanji who loves women as long as they're not ugly was always going to find her beautiful nonetheless and was going to say something complimentary.

It more or less implies Observation Haki will see into the future as long as the actions are premeditated. It has to be premeditated, the rules that work for one character are not different for another. That's now how the Manga works. Everything is consistent.

 

[Beagopa]

That's not how it works.

Just because it's Katakuri doesn't mean Oda makes exceptions.

It'll be like saying that just because it's Katakuri, seastone won't affect him even though it's a principle mechanic.

If Enel's Observation Haki cannot predict what Luffy will do when he's not thinking, then neither will Katakuri's.

His future insight is also not different, it's just able to see further than what we've seen. It's like saying Cracker's Armament Haki being harder than another character's means it works differently when it's a simple case of it just being stronger.

The crying is not what is relevant. It's the fact she went on the ground is what is relevant and is what Katakuri is focused on. That isn't a reflexive action, but a consciously performed action, therefore, it is premeditated.

1. She was going to open her veil to show off her 3rd eyes as was the plan.
2. Sanji who loves women as long as they're not ugly was always going to find her beautiful nonetheless and was going to say something complimentary.

It more or less implies Observation Haki will see into the future as long as the actions are premeditated. It has to be premeditated, the rules that work for one character are not different for another. That's now how the Manga works. Everything is consistent.

You said he can only see premeditated actions. He saw her start crying. Therefore you are saying crying is a premeditated action. If that is your position then your assessment is only correct if crying is in fact a premeditated action. I don’t believe it was premeditated.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 21, 2017 ---

Also Kata is different. So far no one has been able too use CoO to see into the future but him. His CoO is on another level and he used it in ways others cannot so far.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 21, 2017 ---

It also naturally follows that Kata can see beyond just premeditated actions. He can see far enough into the future that he can see actions before people have decided to take those actions. Therefore he sees things that haven’t been premeditated yet.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You said he can only see premeditated actions. He saw her start crying. Therefore you are saying crying is a premeditated action. If that is your position then your assessment is only correct if crying is in fact a premeditated action. I don’t believe it was premeditated.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 21, 2017 ---

Also Kata is different. So far no one has been able too use CoO to see into the future but him. His CoO is on another level and he used it in ways others cannot so far.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 21, 2017 ---

It also naturally follows that Kata can see beyond just premeditated actions. He can see far enough into the future that he can see actions before people have decided to take those actions. Therefore he sees things that haven’t been premeditated yet.

Premeditated and voluntary actions.

He didn't see her crying, he saw her fall down on her knees - it explicitly says so here.

]

Actually. everyone who uses Observation Haki is seeing into the future, that point is fact.

Satori saw Luffy stretch his arm before he did, that is seeing the future. That is the definition of clairvoyance, knowing what someone will definitely do ahead of time and before they do it.

Katakuri just sees further.

It's also not natural, he's no exception, he just sees further ahead of time.

The mechanics don't change just because it's Katakuri.

Premeditated/Voluntary, it just wasn't the best of words to use.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 21, 2017 ---

Therefore he sees things that haven’t been premeditated yet.

This is incorrect too.

Pudding falling on her knees is a voluntary action.

It's only actions that are not voluntary or premeditated that will never been foreseen by Observation - as long as the observed is thinking and consciously using their brains to perform an act, it will be foreseen, otherwise, not. This is a principle.

 

[Beagopa]

This probably isn’t the right place to discuss other types of Haki, but I’m curious as to your analysis.

Shanks CoC was strong enough to where it actually damaged whitebeards ship. Both of them had such strong CoA that when they clashed it split the skies.

My take of CoC is mostly that it is a burst of will that overwhelms those with far weaker fortitude. On FI Luffy knocked out 50,000 fish men and Oda said if Shanks was there he would’ve knocked out all 100,000.

Do you have a theory on what other uses CoC has? I mostly ask because of the situation where Shanks damaged the ship. I wonder if he could use it to shatter weapons or other objects.

I theorize that perhaps CoC can work on inanimate objects because of “the breath of all things” concept mentioned by Koshiro. Just curious on your take.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 23, 2017 ---

But what he saw never happened, therefore it was only a possible future, a future that would happen if he didn’t try and change it. He only looks at one future at a time because there is only one future that exists until he intervenes. Sanji never had to dodge the priest because Kata attacked before the priest pulled out his gun. Kata saw a future and then took steps to intervene creating a future that would not have existed had he not intervened.

Kata aimed based on his prediction of where Sanji would be had he not intervened. When he shot his old prediction no longer represented the future.

IIRC Capone even says even though Kata can see the future, they all have the power to change that future.

Looks like CoO works a bit different than you thought and I was right about the intervention thing.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But what he saw never happened, therefore it was only a possible future, a future that would happen if he didn’t try and change it. He only looks at one future at a time because there is only one future that exists until he intervenes. Sanji never had to dodge the priest because Kata attacked before the priest pulled out his gun. Kata saw a future and then took steps to intervene creating a future that would not have existed had he not intervened.

Kata aimed based on his prediction of where Sanji would be had he not intervened. When he shot his old prediction no longer represented the future.

IIRC Capone even says even though Kata can see the future, they all have the power to change that future.

Also Sanji didn’t make a premeditated thought to dodge any shots, other than Pudding’s which he knew was coming. The dodges were reflexive as he didn’t know the priest or Kata would fire on him until an instant before being struck.

Looks like CoO works a bit different than you thought and I was right about the intervention thing.

Actually, it still is consistent.

And it's not about Katakuri looking at one future is a limitation, there is only 1 future. All that's happening is Observation Haki shows the future from the standpoint of no intervention. All he's doing by intervening is goading the observed to react assuming they have the skills and speed to do so.

It was not a possible future, it was the future that Kata witnessed. The future he saw Pudding was going to fall to the ground is just as accurate in regard to Sanji dodging the priest's shot. Just because Katakuri missed doesn't mean what he saw when Sanji was shot by the priest was no longer representing the future he saw, it was, the problem was that Sanji just reacted in time. Being that he used what he saw as basis for where to aim and when to aim, it's still very much representative.

When you intervene, you force a different reaction. At the same time, it's exactly as I said, and it's still consistent with what I've put up, Observation Haki cannot be used whilst attacking in the sense that it can't be used to predict outcomes because it doesn't and can't predict what the user will do because they're too busy Observing in that moment.

Premeditated actions, Voluntary, as long as they're all conscious actions that one is aware of, Observation Haki will pick it up.

 

[Beagopa]

I’m not arguing he used it while attacking. I’m saying Kata missed because he can’t observe what happens if he intervenes until after he has taken steps to change what he originally observed. At that point his initial observation no longer applies.

I’m not trying to get into an argument because I’m not disagreeing with your original post. I’m saying your assessment is right but your reasoning on why Kata missed Sanji is wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I’m not saying you can use obs haki while you attack, but even if you could, Kata would have still missed. This is because he can’t change the trajectory of his bullet after it’s been fired. His missing was do to him changing the future and not his inability to observe and attack at the same time.

In the above quotes I state that Kata missed sanji because he can’t see what happens as a result of his intervention. Your response was as follows:

How is it wrong? He attacked and missed just like everyone else who is an Observation Haki user.

Your assessment is wrong. He missed because he can't use Observation Haki at the same time.

He even missed in the latest chapter. He attacked Luffy and missed.

However your current position is reflected as follows:

Katakuri can see the actions of people, the only thing he can't see is what happens when he interferes or intervenes. Interfering can be saying something or doing something (most commonly, attacking).

Everything viewed from the perspective of Observation Haki doesn't include what the user does, it doesn't take into account that the user will do xyz, it's totally devoid of the user's intentions or actions. So, whatever Katakuri sees Luffy doing whether 10 seconds in the future or 1 hour, because it's not including what Katakuri himself would have done, by the time he intervenes, he's just as clueless as to how things play out.

Katakuri saw Luffy deflate, he intervened by informing Luffy. Had Katakuri not said anything, Luffy would have deflated in close-range of Katakuri which would have been in Katakuri's favour. However, Katakuri reminding Luffy, and Luffy decided to retreat.

There's also a reason why Observation Haki is more successful when defending than attacking:

1. When defending, you're not influencing or trying to change what you've seen, you're letting it play as it would and moving out the way. That's why avoiding attacks are far more successful when using Observation Haki than attacking.
2. When attacking, you see what your opponent is going to do, and you try to take advantage of their whereabouts as basis for your own attack. The problem is by attacking or intervening, your opponent reacts to it and does something that wasn't foreseen and more so, what's seen with Observation Haki does not include what the user does which makes missing attacks highly plausible if the opponent is formidable to begin with.

I think you’ve changed positions from saying “Kata missed because you can’t use CoO and attack at the same time” to instead say that you can attack and use CoO at the same time but you don’t know what effect your intervention will have. Your new position seems to now agree with my initial reasoning for why Kata missed, which was that Kata missed because he couldn’t see the results of his intervention.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your new position but if I am not then your theory is at least a little inconsistent with your original analysis although it could be a miscommunication error.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think you’ve changed positions from saying “Kata missed because you can’t use CoO and attack at the same time”

It's still the same thing nonetheless. You can't use Observation Haki and attack at the same time, that much is still true. It's still consistent with the fact that Observation Haki also doesn't showcase one's own intervention. Both premises still offer the same result either way.

If you can't see the result of your intervention, it's no different from not being able to use Observation Haki whilst attacking to see the result of your attack.

In fact, if you quoted what I said at the very end of my OP, it's clear I've held this position even before the latest chapter.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 13, 2017 ---

It is also worth noting Observation Haki is used to observe others and can’t be used to predict one’s own actions, therefore how can one predict their own attack fails? This is also part reason Observation Haki doesn’t function as many assume.

Right there ^.

 

[Beagopa]

It's still the same thing nonetheless. You can't use Observation Haki and attack at the same time, that much is still true. It's still consistent with the fact that Observation Haki also doesn't showcase one's own intervention.

So my confusion stems from not knowing if you are saying you physically cannot attack and use CoO at the same time (your original position) or if you are saying you physically can do both but it is not practical and provides no benefit because you are blind to the results of your intervention (similar to my position but different in that I think it gives some benefit if your opponent has bad/slower reaction than you or if they don’t have CoO).

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

So my confusion stems from not knowing if you are saying you physically cannot attack and use CoO at the same time (your original position) or if you saying you physically can do both but it is not practical and provides no benefit because you are blind to the results of your intervention (my position although I think it gives some benefit if your opponent has bad/slower reaction than you).

The point I made is, It's impossible to physically attack and use CoO at the same time, otherwise, people would know whilst attacking the outcome of their attack and the reaction of their opponent. And as I showed you ages ago, Sengoku was surprised which proved my point. In fact, this point is not only proven by Sengoku explicitly, but by Katakuri.

As I also stated, that symbol above Katakuri is one of surprise or being taken aback by an action or statement. It's seen throughout the Manga.

The other point I made was Observation Haki views the future actions of the opponent as if the observer never intended to intervene, therefore, when they attack, they have no idea what will come of their intervention.

What you did was take one notion and dismiss the other whilst both are true, and therefore, is the reason both are included in my OP.

 

[SoulAuron]

i think Beagopa is right in saying that katakuris observation is diferent, because even pudding just falling down to the ground was not somwthing premeditated or something she herself would have ever thought of doing, as such he saw something that would be impossible to see just from looking into someones mind, furthermore hanibal used the example of satori saying that luffy will stretch before he did to infer that any observation haki user can see the future, i disagree, luffy knew he was going to stretch, satori didnt need to see the future to know luffy would stretch, he just needed to read luffys mind, as such the only other instance in the manga where a character could possibly have seen into the future was when luffy dodged mihawk, and i still have my doubts regarding that, as ther is room to argue that he could have seen his arm being cut in mihawks mind, but well, that is a little bit of a stretch, so i cant say i know for sure wether luffy saw the future there or not.

other then that, my thoughts on observation haki being usable while attacking are that it should logically be possible, especially since katakuri in the most recent chapters would constantly change the direction of his attacks mid attack after luffy dodged them to attack where luffy was going, luffy himself said so, as such it seems that it can actually be done, it is noteworthy however that luffy still doged anyway using his speed and elasticity, so my thoughts are that its not a matter of wether or not it can be done, but a matter of how hard it is to do it, especially when you consider that once you act upon what you saw your oponent has a chance to change what they will do if they are fast enough and can detect and understand your actions quickly enough, so my idea is that using it mid attack may or may not work depending on the circumstance, the human brain needs time to process information it recieves in order to first understand it and then decide on what to do based on that information, all observation haki does is give you one more source of information, but you still have only one brain to process that information with, so you can get overloaded with information so that you cannot decide fast enough on what to do, this is especially true in a sitution such as marineford, there where tons of superstrong people there on both sides, in such a situation you cant just focus on your oponent, you have to think about all the super strong people arround you as well, or you could die, as such every user of observation haki is essentially nerfed depending on how many threats they have to keep track of at once, since they have limited brain "processing power" to work with, and i imagine that most people will want to primarily focus on defending themselves instead of avoiding their oponents defences, as such they will use observation haki ofensively a lot less, pretty much only when they are confident that it will pay off, as such that helps explain why so in that scenario it was easier to defend from their attacks.

 

[Beagopa]

The point I made is, It's impossible to physically attack and use CoO at the same time, otherwise, people would know whilst attacking the outcome of their attack and the reaction of their opponent. And as I showed you ages ago, Sengoku was surprised which proved my point. In fact, this point is not only proven by Sengoku explicitly, but by Katakuri.

As I also stated, that symbol above Katakuri is one of surprise or being taken aback by an action or statement. It's seen throughout the Manga.

The other point I made was Observation Haki views the future actions of the opponent as if the observer never intended to intervene, therefore, when they attack, they have no idea what will come of their intervention.

What you did was take one notion and dismiss the other whilst both are true, and therefore, is the reason both are included in my OP.

Still don’t know your answer. Is your analysis:

A. That it is physically impossible to use CoO at the same time as attacking.

B. That it is physically possible to use CoO at the same time as attacking but not reliable.

C. None of the above.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Still don’t know your answer. Is your analysis:

A. That it is physically impossible to use CoO at the same time as attacking.

B. That it is physically possible to use CoO at the same time as attacking but not reliable.

C. None of the above.

I already told you.

1. I said it's physically impossible.
2. It's conceptually impossible too because Observation Haki doesn't predict the user's own actions, but the observed.

I'm sure I made these points quite clear.

 

[Beagopa]

I already told you.

1. I said it's physically impossible.
2. It's conceptually impossible too because Observation Haki doesn't predict the user's own actions, but the observed.

I'm sure I made these points quite clear.

Not as a clear as you think. In the below post you start by saying CoO is more successful when defending than attacking. You may have not meant to but your phrasing implies that you think it can be used while attacking but that it isn’t likely to be successful. This is different than saying it is physically impossible.

There's also a reason why Observation Haki is more successful when defending than attacking:

1. When defending, you're not influencing or trying to change what you've seen, you're letting it play as it would and moving out the way. That's why avoiding attacks are far more successful when using Observation Haki than attacking.
2. When attacking, you see what your opponent is going to do, and you try to take advantage of their whereabouts as basis for your own attack. The problem is by attacking or intervening, your opponent reacts to it and does something that wasn't foreseen and more so, what's seen with Observation Haki does not include what the user does which makes missing attacks highly plausible if the opponent is formidable to begin with.

Just trying to get clarification. Thank you for shedding light.

 

[Fox666]

Satori saw Luffy stretch his arm before he did, that is seeing the future. That is the definition of clairvoyance, knowing what someone will definitely do ahead of time and before they do it.

Hold on, isn't CoO used to read someone intentions before he attacks? Satori should be able to tell Luffy is going to stretch before he does so.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Not as a clear as you think. In the below post you start by saying CoO is more successful when defending than attacking. You may have not meant to but your phrasing implies that you think it can be used while attacking but that it isn’t likely to be successful. This is different than saying it is physically impossible.

Actually, that statement is being said from the the point of how intervention makes Observation Haki more noticeable defending than attacking. What you really did here was take one statement in a sentence which ultimately misconstrues the overall message. It's really just making reason or giving an explanation for the apparent visual discrepancies.

I really only explained 1 facet of Observation Haki regarding the view it gives the user. Anyway, even the fact that I already stated the Observation Haki user can see what their opponent will do, but when they intervene, they force a different reaction. One could then say then they could just use Observation Haki to see the future of their opponent whilst they react or while reacting to see what they'd do and counter to more or less negate their initial Observation. So, really, without understanding the fact that it's physically impossible if one thought this was the entire story to Observation Haki.

If you take anything out of context, you'd without doubt give it the unintended meaning or make one out of it if you wanted. Even what you quoted, it's in my original OP in a much more succint form, so it's really not a change in my opinions. All I did was shed more light on that aspect of it in that brief writing.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 13, 2017 ---

Hold on, isn't CoO used to read someone intentions before he attacks? Satori should be able to tell Luffy is going to stretch before he does so.

That's what I'm saying. It reads the actions of the observed before they perform it. Satori did know Luffy would stretch since he saw it, and then he just got out the way and counter attacked.

 

[silentjoker37]

CoO, in it's fundamental nature, is to enhance, but apparently varies in effect depending on which physical senses you fortify it with. When Fujitora, who is blind, uses CoO he sees vague shaped auras, as opposed to Usopp, who just learned CoO, observed clear cut aura of Luffy, Sugar, and Law. It should also be noted Usopp was able to zoom his vision to see his targets more distinctively. Even Enel was able to increase his CoO to a unrealistic range with his devil fruit abilities. Depending on what you use to detect, whether it's physical senses or devil fruit abilities, an entirely different effect can manifest.

 

[Beagopa]

CoO, in it's fundamental nature, is to enhance, but apparently varies in effect depending on which physical senses you fortify it with. When Fujitora, who is blind, uses CoO he sees vague shaped auras, as opposed to Usopp, who just learned CoO, observed clear cut aura of Luffy, Sugar, and Law. It should also be noted Usopp was able to zoom his vision to see his targets more distinctively. Even Enel was able to increase his CoO to a unrealistic range with his devil fruit abilities. Depending on what you use to detect, whether it's physical senses or devil fruit abilities, an entirely different effect can manifest.

Aisa’s haki let her sense feelings and Colby could hear the voices of people dying. So I agree that it doesn’t have a single application.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

CoO, in it's fundamental nature, is to enhance, but apparently varies in effect depending on which physical senses you fortify it with. When Fujitora, who is blind, uses CoO he sees vague shaped auras, as opposed to Usopp, who just learned CoO, observed clear cut aura of Luffy, Sugar, and Law. It should also be noted Usopp was able to zoom his vision to see his targets more distinctively. Even Enel was able to increase his CoO to a unrealistic range with his devil fruit abilities. Depending on what you use to detect, whether it's physical senses or devil fruit abilities, an entirely different effect can manifest.

Not so sure about CoO sensing feelings, it's not the power to be empathetic. Voice actually means Aura/Energy, and when they wilt, it implies someone has died. Given that Coby and Aisa are people with sympathy and empathy as is Queen Otohime unlike Akainu, they're people who are generally emotional and actually have a moral compass, so when they see or know people around them are dying, they can't help but feel sad.

Observation Haki also didn't enhance Enel's Devil fruit ability, they worked independently. He just used it to complement his ability. His Electric powers allowed him to manipulate sound waves and convert into electrical signals that allowed him to hear what was said, and he used his Observation Haki to sense the auras of people. Both together gave him pin-point accuracy as to the location of people, therefore, he was literally able to monitor everything going on under his nose.

It also doesn't seem to have impact on physical senses, it's a distinctive power on its own. All Observation Haki users view auras similarly as Fujitora do, and they also predict the same way as everyone. The difference is the range at which one can view/sense auras and the depth of how far into one's actions they can foresee.

 

[silentjoker37]

It also doesn't seem to have impact on physical senses, it's a distinctive power on its own. All Observation Haki users view auras similarly as Fujitora do, and they also predict the same way as everyone. The difference is the range at which one can view/sense auras and the depth of how far into one's actions they can foresee.

I agree with everything else you have said until this paragraph. I think it is debatable that CoO is independent of physical senses. We have seen through Katukuri's eyes his ability to foresee the future is limited to what he is directly looking at based on Pudding's situation, but Fujitora, on the other hand, shouldn't have access to this capability because of his blindness. Even Fujitora remarked how he liked to see Luffy's face, which means that Fujitora can't see possibly see the future the same way as Katurk doesi. Fujitora doesn't support your hypothesis that CoO is independent of physical senses.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I agree with everything else you have said until this paragraph. I think it is debatable that CoO is independent of physical senses. We have seen through Katukuri's eyes his ability to foresee the future is limited to what he is directly looking at based on Pudding's situation, but Fujitora, on the other hand, shouldn't have access to this capability because of his blindness. Even Fujitora remarked how he liked to see Luffy's face, which means that Fujitora can't see possibly see the future the same way as Katurk doesi. Fujitora doesn't support your hypothesis that CoO is independent of physical senses.

Well, Fujitora is blind, yet he saw auras the same way as Usopp. Fujitora has also foreseen what would happen on the battlefield before it happened as seen here.

Spoiler

This was chapter 724. Have to ask how he was able to know that.

And you know, Sandersonia had her eyes closed when predicting what Luffy would do. Maybe sight makes things clearer? Can't say for sure, but it definitely isn't necessary.

I'd think this is how all Observation Haki users viewed things.

Spoiler

In fact maybe this is why Katakuri couldn't tell she was crying because this is how things are viewed.