Yonko Commander Bounty

[Sachsenhesse]

Maybe you're not aware that Ace actually defeated a Vice Admiral before he even got to Sabaody. Something even Luffy never did.

Well he defeated Rob Lucci who was said to be vice-admiral tier if i remember correctly. Also Luffy never defeated nor did fight with a viceadmiral, but he defeated two Shichibukai who are basically above vice-admiral level.

 

[HereNThere]

Realistically speaking the biggest reason to think BB used haki is just how ordinary a skill haki is, specially among strong and experienced people. Both of which apply to ace and BB. Haki isn't something that people magically started using after the war, during it we simply didn't see it because the most common forms of haki are largely invisible to the naked eye. Haki is a generic and ordinary skill which any pirate worth a fraction of a damn would be perfectly capable of using. The most reasonable scenario here is, by far, that both of them used haki. For the same reason it is certain that virtually anyone who mattered during the great war was using haki.

A reasonable stance, for sure. However, the Ace's fight took place way before that point in the story and was still quite a ways from the Kuja Arc, where Armament Haki in particular took form as a solid concept. I don't think Oda had a solid idea of what Haki could do until sometime during Thriller Bark while he was penning Sabaody.

We still had folks like Crocodile, Kuma, and Moriah who didn't show any haki capabilities, despite all of them later being confirmed as New World Veterans. We had Lucci, who didn't know it, despite his high rank and his strength being praised by both the Shichibukai and Vice Admirals, the latter of which who are all said to know haki. And there is the fact that none of Blackbeard's crew, including Blackbeard himself possibly, knew haki apparently, despite the fact that their Captain sailed with one of the Yonkou and was considered on par with the Commanders.

There were a few characters around that period of time, before haki started becoming prominent, who should have known it, but didn't, so Blackbeard being apart of that little group back then wouldn't be a surprise to me.

Like I said, it could be either case. It was just that small window of time between Ennis Lobby and Sabaody where Oda was probably working it all out, so a few of said characters revealed prior to that were temporarily left out in order to keep things consistent still, mostly those who we had seen in extended fights, like Crocodile, Ace, and Moriah.

 

[kkck]

A reasonable stance, for sure. However, the Ace's fight took place way before that point in the story and was still quite a ways from the Kuja Arc, where Armament Haki in particular took form as a solid concept. I don't think Oda had a solid idea of what Haki could do until sometime during Thriller Bark while he was penning Sabaody.

We still had folks like Crocodile, Kuma, and Moriah who didn't show any haki capabilities, despite all of them later being confirmed as New World Veterans. We had Lucci, who didn't know it, despite his high rank and his strength being praised by both the Shichibukai and Vice Admirals, the latter of which who are all said to know haki. And there is the fact that none of Blackbeard's crew, including Blackbeard himself possibly, knew haki apparently, despite the fact that their Captain sailed with one of the Yonkou and was considered on par with the Commanders.

There were a few characters around that period of time, before haki started becoming prominent, who should have known it, but didn't, so Blackbeard being apart of that little group back then wouldn't be a surprise to me.

Like I said, it could be either case. It was just that small window of time between Ennis Lobby and Sabaody where Oda was probably working it all out, so a few of said characters revealed prior to that were temporarily left out in order to keep things consistent still, mostly those who we had seen in extended fights, like Crocodile, Ace, and Moriah.

Oda most likely had a pretty solid idea of haki even from the manga's start. The time we saw the ace fight was around when we saw garp punching, and hurting, luffy. Not to mention it was years after enel was a thing. Crocodile is a fighter whom we saw extensively across multiple arcs, I am pretty sure we can make the case he simply didn't know how to use haki. With moria we have a similar scenario though there is a chance that had to do with him simply not trying too hard during fights and letting his shadow clone do most of the work. Come on, lucci was praised but in context the guy was clearly a rookie in the grand scheme of things. As I have said before, he was far from the strongest person at ennies lobby, the VA simply didn't bother to move in and effortlessly foderize the strawhats. Can you imagine BB learning haki over the past 2 years? BB defeated ace, someone who could tie with jinbe a confirmed haki user... BB being considered worthy of being a WB commander should be pretty strong evidence that the guy is a haki user as well. He didn't even have a fruit at the time. There is no way BB could have been that big a deal if his only asset at the time was physical strength. Not to mention that BB was one of the first people in the manga to reference haki, he mentioned it several times to luffy across their meetings.

 

[M3J]

I don't think BB used Haki in that fight mainly because the series made it a pretty big deal that the Darkness Fruit can seal other fruit user's abilities during that time, which, in hindsight, seems like a weird thing to point out when Haki allows folks to touch Devil Fruit users as well. In the context of when that chapter first came out, this was way before Haki was a solid concept in the series, so I think it's safer to assume that Haki played no role in that fight and it was the Darkness Fruit that was inhibiting Ace.

Haki also enhances one's abilities as well. Blackbeard and Ace could have used Color of Armament to add more power to their attacks or for better defense, as well as Color of Observation to try and predict attacks or make sure BB's crew didn't interfere. I'm not talking about haki vs. devil fruit, but haki as enhancement, and there's no reason to believe either didn't use haki given how haki is used in fights in the New World.

 

[HereNThere]

Oda most likely had a pretty solid idea of haki even from the manga's start. The time we saw the ace fight was around when we saw garp punching, and hurting, luffy. Not to mention it was years after enel was a thing. Crocodile is a fighter whom we saw extensively across multiple arcs, I am pretty sure we can make the case he simply didn't know how to use haki. With moria we have a similar scenario though there is a chance that had to do with him simply not trying too hard during fights and letting his shadow clone do most of the work. Come on, lucci was praised but in context the guy was clearly a rookie in the grand scheme of things. As I have said before, he was far from the strongest person at ennies lobby, the VA simply didn't bother to move in and effortlessly foderize the strawhats. Can you imagine BB learning haki over the past 2 years? BB defeated ace, someone who could tie with jinbe a confirmed haki user... BB being considered worthy of being a WB commander should be pretty strong evidence that the guy is a haki user as well. He didn't even have a fruit at the time. There is no way BB could have been that big a deal if his only asset at the time was physical strength. Not to mention that BB was one of the first people in the manga to reference haki, he mentioned it several times to luffy across their meetings.

The manga wasn't even planned to last as long as it did at the start, so I doubt haki was a concept in Oda's mind yet.

Garp's Punch is also muddy if you consider the fact that Nami's done the same thing. I think there was an SBS where Oda said Garp didn't use haki for that punch or something to that extent. The question and answer was after haki was an established concept.

Mantra could have easily been folded into the overall concept of haki after it's introduction. I mean, does it really make much sense that the folks of Skypia only managed to awaken one of the two aspects of haki, but not the other commonly used one as well? You can't tell me Eneru couldn't have awakened it as strong and experienced as he was. Oda most likely folded both concepts together to make sense out it and make the story flow better.

Crocodile's a New World Veteran, it doesn't make sense for him not to know it. Oda came out and said that he regrets having Luffy beat him so early in the series. As for Moriah, he was lazy, yet he still didn't use haki when he eventually got serious and used Shadow Asgard. During his whole spiel about them not knowing true terror, I do believe that would have been an optimal time to show haki.

I'll give you Lucci, but given the role CP9 was supposed to have, it would seem like he'd be a good candidate to learn haki as he is supposed to take care of assassinations, and you'd think that haki would be beneficial to know as I imagine certain targets would have devil fruits.

It's strong evidence towards it, but it's not proof. And he mentioned it after the fight with Ace and after Sabaody and Kuja arc, where haki was solidified as a concept.

Haki also enhances one's abilities as well. Blackbeard and Ace could have used Color of Armament to add more power to their attacks or for better defense, as well as Color of Observation to try and predict attacks or make sure BB's crew didn't interfere. I'm not talking about haki vs. devil fruit, but haki as enhancement, and there's no reason to believe either didn't use haki given how haki is used in fights in the New World.

They could have, but there is no proof that they were. As I said, the series at that accentuated the fact that BB's fruit is what allowed him to touch Ace, which doesn't make sense as, if what you are saying is true, wouldn't matter in the first place if they were both using haki to enhance their abilities.

 

[kkck]

Iird oda made the point that garp did indeed use haki. As for the nami bit, i think we can safely dismiss that as comedic relieve. Which granted is sometimes plot relevant (sanjis nosebleed for instance) but even then it can be safely dismissed for this.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The manga wasn't even planned to last as long as it did at the start, so I doubt haki was a concept in Oda's mind yet.

Doesn't really matter how long it was planned for, but Haki was without a doubt planned for.

King's Haki was used in Chapter 1.

Smoker who was a low-rank was a Logia. Can't exactly touch smoke with a weakness like sand, therefore, Haki must have been already planned for. Can't start a fire without a way to put it out.

Garp's Punch is also muddy if you consider the fact that Nami's done the same thing. I think there was an SBS where Oda said Garp didn't use haki for that punch or something to that extent. The question and answer was after haki was an established concept.

Comedic purposes. Also, Haki isn't needed to hurt Luffy. Just a powerful attack.

Mantra could have easily been folded into the overall concept of haki after it's introduction. I mean, does it really make much sense that the folks of Skypia only managed to awaken one of the two aspects of haki, but not the other commonly used one as well? You can't tell me Eneru couldn't have awakened it as strong and experienced as he was. Oda most likely folded both concepts together to make sense out it and make the story flow better.

Well, Haki is not something common in the first half of the Grand Line. Only the Kuja warriors are really the only ones in that half of Grand Line well adept at it.

Crocodile's a New World Veteran, it doesn't make sense for him not to know it. Oda came out and said that he regrets having Luffy beat him so early in the series. As for Moriah, he was lazy, yet he still didn't use haki when he eventually got serious and used Shadow Asgard. During his whole spiel about them not knowing true terror, I do believe that would have been an optimal time to show haki.

Him being a veteran isn't really relevant. If Oda wanted Crocodile to be a Haki user, he'd have showcased it in Marineford and he never did. Moriah clearly also never had Haki or he'd have used it. Laziness isn't really an excuse. This is a man who absorbed more shadows than he could handle. He might be lazy in general, but he fought to the best of his abilities.

And pretty sure Rayleigh said many try to attain Haki and don't; difference in talent. There's a reason people have DFs. If they lack the talent for Haki, abilities are just as effective. As powerful as Haki is, it has limitations and DFs can make up for that lack of power.

It's strong evidence towards it, but it's not proof. And he mentioned it after the fight with Ace and after Sabaody and Kuja arc, where haki was solidified as a concept.

It just that wasn't common in the first half of the Grand Line. It has always existed. Even in flashbacks, as far as the story in terms of chronology goes, Haki has been used long before even Luffy was born.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2017 ---

Iird oda made the point that garp did indeed use haki. As for the nami bit, i think we can safely dismiss that as comedic relieve. Which granted is sometimes plot relevant (sanjis nosebleed for instance) but even then it can be safely dismissed for this.

He didn't say Garp used Haki, he just said it was a fist full of love.

 

[HereNThere]

Doesn't really matter how long it was planned for, but Haki was without a doubt planned for.

King's Haki was used in Chapter 1.

Smoker who was a low-rank was a Logia. Can't exactly touch smoke with a weakness like sand, therefore, Haki must have been already planned for. Can't start a fire without a way to put it out.

It kinda does, because things change and will be expanded if a series goes on longer than intended. Take for instance the fact that the Shichibukai were not originally planned and Luffy was supposed to go straight for the Yonkou, but things changed, and now we have 7 Government Dogs running around, extending the length of the series per Oda's own words.

And, like Mantra, that one scene could have easily been folded into the concept of haki once Oda came up with it. There is no proof that Oda had an idea of Haki back then. It could just have easily been Oda using the killing intent trope.

And who knows what ways Oda would have had Luffy get around that handicap. The series made it a point to show that Smoker wouldn't go intangible if there was a strong gust, so maybe that would have played a role in the original story, if Luffy and Smoker were/are destined to fight that is.

Comedic purposes. Also, Haki isn't needed to hurt Luffy. Just a powerful attack.

Cool, so we agree that haki wasn't a sure thing at that point in the series right? That it's possible that Ace and BB were just throwing powerful attacks and BB was able to hit Ace because of his Fruit?

Well, Haki is not something common in the first half of the Grand Line. Only the Kuja warriors are really the only ones in that half of Grand Line well adept at it.

Most likely because it fit the narrative to have an island full of haki users exist right after it was introduced in the previous arc. I imagine that, if we were to go further back into Paradise, we'd inexplicably see more people using Haki who didn't have it before, like Enel (Armament in his case) or Zeff.

Him being a veteran isn't really relevant. If Oda wanted Crocodile to be a Haki user, he'd have showcased it in Marineford and he never did. Moriah clearly also never had Haki or he'd have used it. Laziness isn't really an excuse. This is a man who absorbed more shadows than he could handle. He might be lazy in general, but he fought to the best of his abilities.

And pretty sure Rayleigh said many try to attain Haki and don't; difference in talent. There's a reason people have DFs. If they lack the talent for Haki, abilities are just as effective. As powerful as Haki is, it has limitations and DFs can make up for that lack of power.

It is relevant. The Shichibukai are obviously supposed to be be top tier pirates and every New World Pirate worth a damn has shown to be capable of using Haki to some extent. We're talking about a dude who knows about Awakening and, most likely, will be revealed to have Awakened his fruit. As for why he never showcased it, it's most likely would have created a plot inconsistency. Why did he lose to Luffy if he had the use of Haki? Same with Moriah.

I doubt it's an issue of talent, otherwise the series is basically saying that Bellamy and Pekoms have more talent than Crocodile. I guarantee that the next time we see both Crocoboy and Moriah, they will be haki masters and use it like they've had it for decades.

It just that wasn't common in the first half of the Grand Line. It has always existed. Even in flashbacks, as far as the story in terms of chronology goes, Haki has been used long before even Luffy was born.

Within the story, using hindsight, sure, but out of story, as it was being told in our world, there is no proof that that was the case.

 

[Beagopa]

Doesn't really matter how long it was planned for, but Haki was without a doubt planned for.

King's Haki was used in Chapter 1.

Smoker who was a low-rank was a Logia. Can't exactly touch smoke with a weakness like sand, therefore, Haki must have been already planned for. Can't start a fire without a way to put it out.

Comedic purposes. Also, Haki isn't needed to hurt Luffy. Just a powerful attack.



Well, Haki is not something common in the first half of the Grand Line. Only the Kuja warriors are really the only ones in that half of Grand Line well adept at it.



Him being a veteran isn't really relevant. If Oda wanted Crocodile to be a Haki user, he'd have showcased it in Marineford and he never did. Moriah clearly also never had Haki or he'd have used it. Laziness isn't really an excuse. This is a man who absorbed more shadows than he could handle. He might be lazy in general, but he fought to the best of his abilities.

And pretty sure Rayleigh said many try to attain Haki and don't; difference in talent. There's a reason people have DFs. If they lack the talent for Haki, abilities are just as effective. As powerful as Haki is, it has limitations and DFs can make up for that lack of power.



It just that wasn't common in the first half of the Grand Line. It has always existed. Even in flashbacks, as far as the story in terms of chronology goes, Haki has been used long before even Luffy was born.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2017 ---

He didn't say Garp used Haki, he just said it was a fist full of love.

I’m pretty sure Zeff also hurt Luffy IIRC which would further support haki isn’t needed to hurt Luffy if the attack has enough force.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2017 ---

It kinda does, because things change and will be expanded if a series goes on longer than intended. Take for instance the fact that the Shichibukai were not originally planned and Luffy was supposed to go straight for the Yonkou, but things changed, and now we have 7 Government Dogs running around, extending the length of the series per Oda's own words.

And, like Mantra, that one scene could have easily been folded into the concept of haki once Oda came up with it. There is no proof that Oda had an idea of Haki back then. It could just have easily been Oda using the killing intent trope.

And who knows what ways Oda would have had Luffy get around that handicap. The series made it a point to show that Smoker wouldn't go intangible if there was a strong gust, so maybe that would have played a role in the original story, if Luffy and Smoker were/are destined to fight that is.



Cool, so we agree that haki wasn't a sure thing at that point in the series right? That it's possible that Ace and BB were just throwing powerful attacks and BB was able to hit Ace because of his Fruit?



Most likely because it fit the narrative to have an island full of haki users exist right after it was introduced in the previous arc. I imagine that, if we were to go further back into Paradise, we'd inexplicably see more people using Haki who didn't have it before, like Enel (Armament in his case) or Zeff.



It is relevant. The Shichibukai are obviously supposed to be be top tier pirates and every New World Pirate worth a damn has shown to be capable of using Haki to some extent. We're talking about a dude who knows about Awakening and, most likely, will be revealed to have Awakened his fruit. As for why he never showcased it, it's most likely would have created a plot inconsistency. Why did he lose to Luffy if he had the use of Haki? Same with Moriah.

I doubt it's an issue of talent, otherwise the series is basically saying that Bellamy and Pekoms have more talent than Crocodile. I guarantee that the next time we see both Crocoboy and Moriah, they will be haki masters and use it like they've had it for decades.



Within the story, using hindsight, sure, but out of story, as it was being told in our world, there is no proof that that was the case.

Shichibukai don’t have to be top tier pirates, I mean...look at Buggy. And even though Crocodile is a Shichibukai he isn’t a “new world vet” Oda said Crocodile was a rising rookie just like Luffy but got kicked out of the new world when he was in his 20s by WB. He is a seasoned and strong pirate but didn’t have much experience in the new world. Kind of like how Ace was an undeniably strong character with lots of potential but he didn’t have that many years in the new world.

With this being said, I do think you have a point that it is possible haki wasn’t used in Ace and BB’s fight. Back then coA wasn’t always visible so we can’t say for sure.

 

[M3J]

They could have, but there is no proof that they were. As I said, the series at that accentuated the fact that BB's fruit is what allowed him to touch Ace, which doesn't make sense as, if what you are saying is true, wouldn't matter in the first place if they were both using haki to enhance their abilities.

I can throw that right back at you and say there's no proof they weren't. We saw the start of the fight but that's about it. All we know is that while Ace put up a great fight despite being a devil fruit user who couldn't use his fruit on Blackbeard, he still lost.

It would matter as Blackbeard's fruit would nullify Ace's fruit, and haki would give him extra power behind his attacks. Why wouldn't Blackbeard and Ace enhance their attacks and defense? Either way, Ace is close to a top tier fighter, if not already, as despite being unable to use his devil fruit, he still gave Blackbeard a run for his money. Plus, I find it a bit hard to believe Ace can tie with Jinbei after hours of fighting without haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It kinda does, because things change and will be expanded if a series goes on longer than intended. Take for instance the fact that the Shichibukai were not originally planned and Luffy was supposed to go straight for the Yonkou, but things changed, and now we have 7 Government Dogs running around, extending the length of the series per Oda's own words.

And, like Mantra, that one scene could have easily been folded into the concept of haki once Oda came up with it. There is no proof that Oda had an idea of Haki back then. It could just have easily been Oda using the killing intent trope.

And who knows what ways Oda would have had Luffy get around that handicap. The series made it a point to show that Smoker wouldn't go intangible if there was a strong gust, so maybe that would have played a role in the original story, if Luffy and Smoker were/are destined to fight that is.

Cool, so we agree that haki wasn't a sure thing at that point in the series right? That it's possible that Ace and BB were just throwing powerful attacks and BB was able to hit Ace because of his Fruit?

It was, like I said. You can't create a character like Smoker without having a way to fight him, therefore, Haki must have been a sure thing.

Whether the Shichibukai were planned or not isn't relevant. Shichibukai is not a synonym for Logia. Unless Logia were only a thing late in the series, you may have a point, but that point isn't valid because we were already introduced to Logia that have no weakness in the first 100 chapters.

I doubt it's an issue of talent, otherwise the series is basically saying that Bellamy and Pekoms have more talent than Crocodile. I guarantee that the next time we see both Crocoboy and Moriah, they will be haki masters and use it like they've had it for decades.

It is in fact heavily associated with talent. Not everyone is capable of it.

And so what if they have more talent than Crocodile? We know he has Intelligence. Someone like Bellamy will never have that level of meticulous foresight and deducing ability. Not everyone has the talent to be as skilled as the SHs nor do they have the talent to be as powerful. Some people can pick up weights all their lives and will never be able to surpass a certain level of strength. Genes and talent. We're not all made equal in that regard.

That it's possible that Ace and BB were just throwing powerful attacks and BB was able to hit Ace because of his Fruit?

This is an absolutely no because we know how BB's ability works.

It doesn't work by a simple touch. The user must grab the opponent before their DF is nullified. That much is a fact. Only way to hit a Logia is Logia and that's really the only thing Blackbeard could hvae done when he his is neck as he wasn't being grabbed.

What's a tad absurd is you think a character like Blackbeard who bested Shanks wouldn't have Haki.

 

[Beagopa]

It was, like I said. You can't create a character like Smoker without having a way to fight him, therefore, Haki must have been a sure thing.

Whether the Shichibukai were planned or not isn't relevant. Shichibukai is not a synonym for Logia. Unless Logia were only a thing late in the series, you may have a point, but that point isn't valid because we were already introduced to Logia that have no weakness in the first 100 chapters.

It is in fact heavily associated with talent. Not everyone is capable of it.

And so what if they have more talent than Crocodile? We know he has Intelligence. Someone like Bellamy will never have that level of meticulous foresight and deducing ability. Not everyone has the talent to be as skilled as the SHs nor do they have the talent to be as powerful. Some people can pick up weights all their lives and will never be able to surpass a certain level of strength. Genes and talent. We're not all made equal in that regard.



This is an absolutely no because we know how BB's ability works.

It doesn't work by a simple touch. The user must grab the opponent before their DF is nullified. That much is a fact. Only way to hit a Logia is Logia and that's really the only thing Blackbeard could hvae done when he his is neck as he wasn't being grabbed.

What's a tad absurd is you think a character like Blackbeard who bested Shanks wouldn't have Haki.

To be fair I think “bested” is probably not the right word. I mean we don’t know the details of the skirmish between Shanks and B.B. Maybe he landed a good hit then ran and hid so as not to draw too much attention to himself. Likely at that point in time that Shanks would’ve wrecked B.B. if they had a true one on one fight.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

To be fair I think “bested” is probably not the right word. I mean we don’t know the details of the skirmish between Shanks and B.B. Maybe he landed a good hit then ran and hid so as not to draw too much attention to himself. Likely at that point in time that Shanks would’ve wrecked B.B. if they had a true one on one fight.

That's what people like to think about Blackbeard. There's this misconception that just because he's used underhanded tricks means he can't fight. Shanks actually says otherwise.

Shanks said he wasn't careless.

He even backs up his years of experience by stating this wasn't from adventures nor with his fight with Mihawk before proceeding to say he wasn't careless and emphasising that it was Blackbeard's doing.

Blackbeard was just that strong. Blackbeard didn't even let Burgess and co. fight Ace because he was too strong, why then would he let anyone fight Shanks who is far more powerful?

If Shanks said this about any character, no one would second guess how powerful that character was.

It's really missed how Shanks hadn't met Blackbeard in years, yet he was so certain he'd defeat Ace.

1. He even knew Blackbeard would come for Whitebeard's throne and take it.
2. He even pleaded that the WB Pirates relinquish their desire to punish Blackbeard despite how insulting it is for an outsider to state that.
3. How can he tell Ace with his natural strength and ability would be defeated despite having not fought Ace? He didn't even know what ability he'd gained, yet was so confident with all of his prediction and they turned out true.

Blackbeard is definitely the real deal; only experience can explain how certain Shanks was about Blackbeard's strength.

This is a guy who tanked attacks from Sengoku and Whitebeard and more so when his ability enhances the strength of the attack he receives. Many people dislike Blackbeard and use that to springboard intent to paint him as weak and purely cunning.

I doubt Shanks is just crying about a mere scar if it doesn't symbolise anything more than the strength of Blackbeard. More so, there's proof in the Manga that any scar that aches when thinking about whom it came from implies that scar is symbolic of defeat or humiliation.

 

[Beagopa]

That's what people like to think about Blackbeard. There's this misconception that just because he's used underhanded tricks means he can't fight. Shanks actually says otherwise.

Shanks said he wasn't careless.

He even backs up his years of experience by stating this wasn't from adventures nor with his fight with Mihawk before proceeding to say he wasn't careless and emphasising that it was Blackbeard's doing.

Blackbeard was just that strong. Blackbeard didn't even let Burgess and co. fight Ace because he was too strong, why then would he let anyone fight Shanks who is far more powerful?

If Shanks said this about any character, no one would second guess how powerful that character was.

It's really missed how Shanks hadn't met Blackbeard in years, yet he was so certain he'd defeat Ace.

1. He even knew Blackbeard would come for Whitebeard's throne and take it.
2. He even pleaded that the WB Pirates relinquish their desire to punish Blackbeard despite how insulting it is for an outsider to state that.
3. How can he tell Ace with his natural strength and ability would be defeated despite having not fought Ace? He didn't even know what ability he'd gained, yet was so confident with all of his prediction and they turned out true.

Blackbeard is definitely the real deal; only experience can explain how certain Shanks was about Blackbeard's strength.

This is a guy who tanked attacks from Sengoku and Whitebeard and more so when his ability enhances the strength of the attack he receives. Many people dislike Blackbeard and use that to springboard intent to paint him as weak and purely cunning.

I doubt Shanks is just crying about a mere scar if it doesn't symbolise anything more than the strength of Blackbeard. More so, there's proof in the Manga that any scar that aches when thinking about whom it came from implies that scar is symbolic of defeat or humiliation.

I didn’t say B.B. was weak just that he didn’t necessarily “best” Shanks because we don’t know whether their fight was until someone was beaten or just a brief skirmish

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I didn’t say B.B. was weak just that he didn’t necessarily “best” Shanks because we don’t know whether their fight was until someone was beaten or just a brief skirmish

Well, why would Shanks be so upset about a scar that he received years ago if it held no significance?

We saw Shanks brush off a glass being broken, he doesn't hold on to petty grudges.

If it was just a brief skirmish, then there's no reason for Shanks to invoke:

1. Not Careless.
2. Not Mihawk's doing.
3. Doesn't even have to explain he's been on many adventures to show he's a bonadife Pirate.

You can't be threatened by someone just because of a mere scratch from a skirmish. If that were the case, it'd be a point that he was careless which he stated that he wasn't. It's more indicative that he was indeed defeated or humiliated by Blacbeard. He must have bested shanks or humiliated him.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2017 ---

Intro​

Some of the things I'll be saying may be hard to swallow, but this is my own take on it based on all the dots I've pieced together . . .

Aching Scars​

What significance do aching scars have? First thing I'd highlight is the significance of ACHING scars in One Piece:

Aching Scar Trend

Chinjao

Spoiler

1. Chinjao LOST to Garp.
2. He got SCARRED as a result of this loss.
3. 30 years later, it still ACHES when he REMEMBERS Garp who he sustained this injury from via defeat.

Luffy

Spoiler

1. Luffy LOST to Akainu.
2. He got SCARRED as a result of being overwhelmingly defeated and being powerless.
3. 2 years later, it ACHES when he REMEMBERS Akainu.

Whitebeard

Spoiler

1. He got SCARRED.
2. It ACHES when he REMEMBERS Roger.
3. Strongly implies that he did LOSE to Roger.

Shanks . . .?

Spoiler

1. He got SCARRED.
2. 10+ Years later, it ACHES when he REMEMBERS Blackbeard.
3. Strongly implies that he did LOSE to Blackbeard.
4. Bare in mind in Shanks' case, he also says "what aches now" meaning he's possibly significantly lose to someone else too.

This was written Mar 2016: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/posts/4221435/

This is from Chapter 850 which was released December 2016.

Is it coincidence that it's following the same pattern? Tamago suffered humiliation to Pedro and his scar aches when in the presence of Pedro consistent with the premise that it does allude to humiliation, loss or defeat. It carries negative connotations for the scarred.

 

[Beagopa]

Well, why would Shanks be so upset about a scar that he received years ago if it held no significance?

We saw Shanks brush off a glass being broken, he doesn't hold on to petty grudges.

If it was just a brief skirmish, then there's no reason for Shanks to invoke:

1. Not Careless.
2. Not Mihawk's doing.
3. Doesn't even have to explain he's been on many adventures to show he's a bonadife Pirate.

You can't be threatened by someone just because of a mere scratch from a skirmish. If that were the case, it'd be a point that he was careless which he stated that he wasn't. It's more indicative that he was indeed defeated or humiliated by Blacbeard. He must have bested shanks or humiliated him.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2017 ---

Intro​

Some of the things I'll be saying may be hard to swallow, but this is my own take on it based on all the dots I've pieced together . . .

Aching Scars​

What significance do aching scars have? First thing I'd highlight is the significance of ACHING scars in One Piece:

Aching Scar Trend

Chinjao

Spoiler

1. Chinjao LOST to Garp.
2. He got SCARRED as a result of this loss.
3. 30 years later, it still ACHES when he REMEMBERS Garp who he sustained this injury from via defeat.

Luffy

Spoiler

1. Luffy LOST to Akainu.
2. He got SCARRED as a result of being overwhelmingly defeated and being powerless.
3. 2 years later, it ACHES when he REMEMBERS Akainu.

Whitebeard

Spoiler

1. He got SCARRED.
2. It ACHES when he REMEMBERS Roger.
3. Strongly implies that he did LOSE to Roger.

Shanks . . .?

Spoiler

1. He got SCARRED.
2. 10+ Years later, it ACHES when he REMEMBERS Blackbeard.
3. Strongly implies that he did LOSE to Blackbeard.
4. Bare in mind in Shanks' case, he also says "what aches now" meaning he's possibly significantly lose to someone else too.

This was written Mar 2016: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/posts/4221435/

This is from Chapter 850 which was released December 2016.

Is it coincidence that it's following the same pattern? Tamago suffered humiliation to Pedro and his scar aches when in the presence of Pedro consistent with the premise that it does allude to humiliation, loss or defeat. It carries negative connotations for the scarred.

I mean, I’d be upset if my face was permanently scarred no matter if I ultimately won or not. I am just saying “bested” can mean different things. Some people would say Vergo bested Sanji by cracking his legs and others would say the fight was never finished.

I also don’t think B.B. humiliated or definitively defeated Shanks because even if he could, he wouldn’t want to run the risk of drawing attention to himself.

At the end of the end of the day though we don’t know the details though because they weren’t given.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I mean, I’d be upset if my face was permanently scarred no matter if I ultimately won or not. I am just saying “bested” can mean different things. Some people would say Vergo bested Sanji by cracking his legs and others would say the fight was never finished.

I also don’t think B.B. humiliated or definitively defeated Shanks because even if he could, he wouldn’t want to run the risk of drawing attention to himself.

At the end of the end of the day though we don’t know the details though because they weren’t given.

The scar is not the issue, Shanks does't care about a scar - he's not that shallow. It's what it stands for or the history behind it. These Pirates are not that superficial that a mere scar would make them upset. Hell, he lost his arm purposely.

Everywhere a scar has been aching, it's associated with traumatic experience, defeat, loss or anything negative, it's at the very least humiliation or defeat.

1. For Chinjao, it was his drill being bent, thus rendering his power halved and fortune locked up.
2. For Luffy, it was because Akainu killed Ace and showed him how weak it was.
3. For Tamago, it was because Pedro stole his eyes. The guy even started wearing clothing to diffuse electric based attacks meaning Pedro must have really made the impression to such an extent, might even say he became obsessed with him. He even remembers he was crying and was somewhat sombre about his death.
4. For Whitebeard, Roger was the one who stopped him from becoming Pirate King. They fought all the time, therefore, someone must have won those battles which would explain why Roger ended up becoming Pirate King.

Shanks said the throbbing scar wasn't from Mihawk meaning he's probably lost to Mihawk which is why Mihawk is the World's Strongest Swordsman. He most likely lost to Blackbeard. Aching scars all hold significance, and they all denote to utter humiliation or defeat.

You say you don't think, but you have no evidence to back it up. There's more evidence in regards to what scars stand for IF they ache when whomever was responsible comes to mind or is in sight. As Shanks said, he wasn't careless meaning Blackbeard was simply strong enough to tango with him.

 

[M3J]

I mean, I’d be upset if my face was permanently scarred no matter if I ultimately won or not. I am just saying “bested” can mean different things. Some people would say Vergo bested Sanji by cracking his legs and others would say the fight was never finished.

I also don’t think B.B. humiliated or definitively defeated Shanks because even if he could, he wouldn’t want to run the risk of drawing attention to himself.

At the end of the end of the day though we don’t know the details though because they weren’t given.

Shanks didn't seem upset about the scar at all, he was more amazed at Blackbeard's power/ability to give him a lasting scar. What Shanks was conveying was that Blackbeard was pretty powerful and that he shouldn't be underestimated, that it was very dangerous to let Ace go after Blackbeard. If Blackbeard didn't hint at or reveal himself to be a bad, unsavory person, then I'm sure Shanks wouldn't care or mind that he was scarred.

 

[HereNThere]

I can throw that right back at you and say there's no proof they weren't. We saw the start of the fight but that's about it. All we know is that while Ace put up a great fight despite being a devil fruit user who couldn't use his fruit on Blackbeard, he still lost.

It would matter as Blackbeard's fruit would nullify Ace's fruit, and haki would give him extra power behind his attacks. Why wouldn't Blackbeard and Ace enhance their attacks and defense? Either way, Ace is close to a top tier fighter, if not already, as despite being unable to use his devil fruit, he still gave Blackbeard a run for his money. Plus, I find it a bit hard to believe Ace can tie with Jinbei after hours of fighting without haki.

I would be fine with that, because that's basically my point. There is no proof of either being the case. I'm arguing my case because it's what I think given the context.

Blackbeard could be inhumanely strong without haki, just like Luffy, Garp, and even Ace. We saw plenty of phenomeal haki-less feats of strength and durability pre-timeskip, so it shouldn't really be hard to believe that both were both taking hits and getting hit without haki being used. As for Jinbe and Ace, I don't think it it's hard to believe at all. They were most likely around the same level of power in general, Jinbe just had the elemental advantage.

 

[M3J]

Given what's been revealed, it's hard to believe neither knew or used haki in their fight. We didn't even see enough of the fight to determine that, but I find it hard to believe Ace could have risen the way he did without haki, and that Blackbeard traveled on Whitebeard's ship as long as he did without learning haki at some point.

He can be, but in this fight if he is then that means Ace was as well, even more so probably because he was at a disadvantage against Blackbeard's devil fruit. Wouldn't one need haki to do damage to Blackbeard, unless he's not expecting it, like Luffy's punch?

But Ace was also dealing with his devil fruit's weakness to water/sea water against Jinbei, who could also use Fishman karate to deal more damage to Ace due to manipulating water in the air or something.