Hangout Akatsuki no Yona Hangout Thread

[Aniela]

Like i said, i wouldnt be so keen on believing yonas rationalizations bec theyre just a defense mech. Fact is, soowon killed king il for revenge and to fulfill yuhons wish. Thats the primary reason which were soowons own words.

It's not a fact, it's what he said. Honestly, I'm surprised you're so quick to believe his word of mouth after so many chapters. Su-won didn't necessary lie then, but he didn't necessary tell the whole truth. There was his childhood friend in tears, askig him 'why', do you honestly think that going on about how Il was a bad king and the Kouka's people suffered under his reign was what you'd do in this situation? Revange is a simple rationale, and doesn't paint Il in nearly as bad a light (he killed one person for unkown reason vs he caused the death of thousands because of his incompetency and complacency). It's entirely possible that Su-won didn't want to add to Yona's burden or go into a detailed explanation to a person who was never beyond the capital city, so he stated only one of the reasons - the simple one.

This is far from being a fact.

 

[SamuelDean]

If you look at the people who participated in the coup, they have some ties or connection to the sky tribe, which was yuhons ex-turf. Anyone from the water tribe? Wind? Earth?

King Il was also part of the Sky Tribe, just as Soo Won. Surely it benefitted Soo Won that he was Yu hon s son, but the people wouldn t have risked their lives so easily if King Il would have been a different kind of king. The soldiers even spilled it why they betrayed King Il.

And i will say this again... even if king il were a competent and benevolent king to the people, soowon would still kill him.

Does such a kind king kill his own brother? Soo Won s likelihood of success would have been very small, likely he would have been exposed before he could have killed the king, since the guards had the duty to watch the king. One man against a whole bunch of soldiers. Indeed. Nearly impossible.

What abilities are you referring to?

He is a courageous, ambitious, intelligent man, who is able to fulfill what he strifed for up until now.

Oh he’s contemplating it... the chapter where the hairpin was lost and we get to see haks monologue about the betrayal.

Correct after 125 chapters.

Like i said, i wouldnt be so keen on believing yonas rationalizations bec theyre just a defense mech. Fact is, soowon killed king il for revenge and to fulfill yuhons wish. Thats the primary reason which were soowons own words.

I think you should maybe separate your idea (rationalisation) from the basic facts.

 

[Trjpyo]

It's not a fact, it's what he said. Honestly, I'm surprused you're so quick to believe his word of mouth after so many chapters. Su-won didn't necessary lie then, but he didn't necessary tell the whole truth. There was his childhood friend in tears, askig him 'why', do you honestly think that going on about how Il was a bad king and the Kouka's people suffered under his reign was what you'd do in this situation? Revange is a simple rationale, and doesn't paint Il in nearly as bad a light (he killed one person for unkown reason vs he caused the death of thousands because of his incompetency and complacency). It's entirely possible that Su-won didn't want to add to Yona's burden or go into a detailed explanation to a person who was never beyond the capital city, so he stated only one of the reasons - the simple one.

This is far from being a fact.

WOW! So now soowon is thinking about his childhood friend in tears... after he carefully planned to murder her father on the eve of her birthday. Soowon truly is one considerate friend.
I’ve reread that chapter and everytime i do, i always get the impression that he wasnt in a rush. Plus, whats so detailed about saying your father is incompetent so he must be removed? He was so elaborate on yuhon being the 1st son but didnt inherit the throne, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Aniela]

WOW! So now soowon is thinking about his childhood friend in tears... after he carefully planned to murder her father on the eve of her birthday. Soowon truly is one considerate friend.
I’ve reread that chapter and everytime i do, i always get the impression that he wasnt in a rush. Plus, whats so detailed about saying your father is incompetent so he must be removed? He was so elaborate on yuhon being the 1st son but didnt inherit the throne, blah, blah, blah.

You should learn to distingiush your impression from a fact. That Su-won killed Il is a fact. Why he did it is disputable. I suppose the idea that people - and hence fictional characters - can be complex and act out of many different reasons, or that they can still care about someone even after they decided to hurt them, may be more difficult to wrap your mind around, but please at least try.

 

[Trjpyo]

King Il was also part of the Sky Tribe, just as Soo Won. Surely it benefitted Soo Won that he was Yu hon s son, but the people wouldn t have risked their lives so easily if King Il would have been a different kind of king. The soldiers even spilled it why they betrayed King Il..

http://mangafox.me/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c002/19.html

Like i said, where are the people from water? Wind? Earth? Why mostly like from the sky tribe? It wouldnt be strange to me if a number of those men were once loyal to yuhon. Even if king il was from the sky tribe, yuhon was the more popular son, not to mention he was former sky tribe general.

Does such a kind king kill his own brother? Soo Won s likelihood of success would have been very small, likely he would have been exposed before he could have killed the king, since the guards had the duty to watch the king. One man against a whole bunch of soldiers. Indeed. Nearly impossible..

I never discounted the fact that yuhon might have had soldiers loyal to him, he was after all ex sky tribe general.

He is a courageous, ambitious, intelligent man, who is able to fulfill what he strifed for up until now..

Yep, the guy who was courageous, ambitious, intelligent but didnt even bother to hold office and serve the people with his talents however little way he can before he usurped the throne. Hak was more useful... he got the position at age 15.

I think you should maybe separate your idea (rationalisation) from the basic facts.

Like i first said, this is how i interpret yonas doing. It seemed like a defense mech bec what came out from it is that she was excusing soowon for murdering her father. Its like a scene from a battered wife. The wife rationalizes her husbands abusive behaviour saying ‘he hit me bec i didnt please him’ or ‘it was my fault bec i didnt do this or that’.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2017 ---

You should learn to distingiush your impression from a fact. That Su-won killed Il is a fact. Why he did it is disputable. I suppose the idea that people - and hence fictional characters - can be complex and act out of many different reasons, or that they can still care about someone even after they decided to hurt them, may be more difficult to wrap your mind around, but please at least try.

Actually, soowon has been fairly consistent in term of his character. There is nothing complex about his character bec even in real life people have grey areas nothing is pure evil or pure goodness. But the circumstances during the night he killed king il suggests that he was telling the truth- that he killed il for revenge and to fulfill his fathers wishes.

 

[@Aylinn]

Yep, the guy who was courageous, ambitious, intelligent but didnt even bother to hold office and serve the people with his talents however little way he can before he usurped the throne. Hak was more useful... he got the position at age 15.

We don’t know if it was because he didn’t want to or if Il didn’t want him to be involved in politics. Besides, if part of his reason is the fact that Il killed his father it is understandable why he didn’t want to. Su-won might have feared that Il will want to kill him as well.

Actually, soowon has been fairly consistent in term of his character. There is nothing complex about his character bec even in real life people have grey areas nothing is pure evil or pure goodness. But the circumstances during the night he killed king il suggests that he was telling the truth- that he killed il for revenge and to fulfill his fathers wishes.

Even if Su-won never states it outright to Yona that night, it is pretty clear that it was one of the reasons as well. Besides, Su-won himself reveals it later
http://mangafox.me/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v20/c117/13.html

As for the palace guards, it really only shows what a terrible King was Il and that Hak failed hard at his job. The place guards should be carefully picked up people who are loyal to the King or the person in charge, so the person in charge should be a person who can ascertain that the place guards are absolutely loyal to the King or/and to him. Any situation in which all of the place guards take part in the coup against the King they are supposed to protect is an epic failure for the person in charge.

If only the Wind tribe was truly loyal to Il, then many if not all of the palace guards should have been picked up from the Wind tribe. It is not quantum physics.

 

[SamuelDean]

Like i said, where are the people from water? Wind? Earth? Why mostly like from the sky tribe? It wouldnt be strange to me if a number of those men were once loyal to yuhon. Even if king il was from the sky tribe, yuhon was the more popular son, not to mention he was former sky tribe general..I never discounted the fact that yuhon might have had soldiers loyal to him, he was after all ex sky tribe general.

If the guy says, that he wishes to kill Yona for the country,..He even spilled it out. Then most likely the main reason for following Soo Won was not his father, but King Il s incompetence!
Don t you think that it is sad, that the entire guards and many of the Sky Tribe soldiers collaborated?

Yep, the guy who was courageous, ambitious, intelligent but didnt even bother to hold office and serve the people with his talents however little way he can before he usurped the throne. Hak was more useful... he got the position at age 15

.
As far as I remember Hak just merely served King Il and Yona..So it was not for the people. And it didn t end well for King Il!

Like i first said, this is how i interpret yonas doing. It seemed like a defense mech bec what came out from it is that she was excusing soowon for murdering her father. Its like a scene from a battered wife. The wife rationalizes her husbands abusive behaviour saying ‘he hit me bec i didnt please him’ or ‘it was my fault bec i didnt do this or that’.

Correct it is merely an interpretation...without any solid proof.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2017 ---

Actually, soowon has been fairly consistent in term of his character. There is nothing complex about his character bec even in real life people have grey areas nothing is pure evil or pure goodness. But the circumstances during the night he killed king il suggests that he was telling the truth- that he killed il for revenge and to fulfill his fathers wishes

I think she means that Soo Won can avenge his father and care for the people of his country.

 

[Trjpyo]

.
As far as I remember Hak just merely served King Il and Yona..So it was not for the people. And it didn t end well for King Il!

Hak is a soldier. A soldier is not a politician or a policy maker. A soldier protects the people from foreign invaders. Are you saying that secret agents who protect the president are not serving their country by protecting its chief executive?

Correct it is merely an interpretation...without any solid proof..

her rationalizations are proof not to mention the circumstances her behavior is coming from.

I think she means that Soo Won can avenge his father and care for the people of his country.

Dont put words into my mouth. I did not say he doesnt care for his people. I only said, the main reason why he killed king il was for revenge and to fulfill his fathers dying wish.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

Soo-Won DID have other options apart from killing Il....he could have merely captured Il, kidnapped him, made him disappear and proclaim him dead and married Yona.

@Trjpyo is right that one of the main reasons for KILLING Il was to avenge his father. Making the country a better place was also part of the package but he could have done this in other ways like I mentioned above. We can't deny that revenge was one of the main motives.

But we still don't have the whole picture so we can't say for sure until we do. This argument is based on what we have seen in the manga so far.

 

[SamuelDean]

Hak is a soldier. A soldier is not a politician or a policy maker. A soldier protects the people from foreign invaders. Are you saying that secret agents who protect the president are not serving their country by protecting its chief executive?

But Hak didn t protect King Il.And yes...Hak was also a politician...He was the Wind Tribe General and the Generals possesses a certain influence inside Kouka.

her rationalizations are proof. This whole argument from the fandom about having il being killed bec of his mismanagement stemmed from yona. But i have to say, i wouldnt trust her point of view bec its inaccurate. Bec this is after all her first time seeing poverty, destitution, sex slavery and drug addiction. Even to this day, even in first world countries, poverty, destitution, prostitution, drug addiction are still rampant and unresolved.

This is your idea. There is no proof in no part of the manga, that I could see that Yona was being delusional.
I can tell you what would have happened if Yona was delusional: She sees all the problems and conflicts in her country...but she averts her eyes. She thinks that it is for example the people s own fault, or the fault of the Generals...everybody were to blame...Except her father of course.
He was just the King for 10 years, who didn t hinder Soo Jin, who ignored the Nadai problems or worse...was clueless....He also was unaware concerning Yan Kumji....who went inside the mausoleum of King Hiryuu and prayed for his countrie s wellbeing...

Dont put words into my mouth. I did not say he doesnt care for his people. I only said, the main reason why he killed king il was for revenge and to fulfill his fathers dying wish.

I didn t put words into your mouth. You had problems to understand that idea, since you always insisted that it was primarily for his father. We do not know this. We know too less about Soo Won. Also why did you talk back, if you understand, that one reason for his actions are him caring for the people of his country?

Soo-Won DID have other options apart from killing Il....he could have merely captured Il, kidnapped him, made him disappear and proclaim him dead and married Yona.

How should he have proclaimed him dead, if King Il was still alive? I am curious. I think hiding him would have been pretty dangerous for Soo Won.
I agree that Soo Won could have tried to talk with Yona or Hak, Mundoek ect...in order to persuade King Il. Maybe there would have been a chance to solve the problems without the murder of King Il.
Revenge was one reason, but definitely not the only one. Soo Won seems to care about his country and the people...just in a different way to Yona.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

How should he have proclaimed him dead, if King Il was still alive? I am curious. I think hiding him would have been pretty dangerous for Soo Won.
I agree that Soo Won could have tried to talk with Yona or Hak, Mundoek ect...in order to persuade King Il. Maybe there would have been a chance to solve the problems without the murder of King Il.
Revenge was one reason, but definitely not the only one. Soo Won seems to care about his country and the people...just in a different way to Yona.

If we talk about killing Il...I feel revenge is a primary reason and killing was the most convenient to better the country. Other options had risk and were simply less convenient for Soo-Won but it wasn't impossible to find another option. He just wanted to kill him with his own hands.

If for example he didn't want revenge on Il, and actually like Il as a person, then someone as smart as Soo-Won could have found other ways. Like you said, spoken to Yona, Hak etc. So yeah that's pretty much my point.

About Yona's grief. Tryjpyo is right in a way that Yona was allowed to grieve and she was taken care of by Hak, whereas Hak never got that chance. Which is why his emotions are pent up. Also Hak and Soo-Won shared a closer bond than Yona and Soo-Won. Yona simply saw him as a major crush, more than a friend, while Hak and Soo-Won were bffs, and Hak thought they shared everything with each other. So he was bound to feel more hurt and angry.

 

[@Aylinn]

Soo-Won DID have other options apart from killing Il....he could have merely captured Il, kidnapped him, made him disappear and proclaim him dead and married Yona.

It could have caused too much problems if Il somehow managed to get out of prison, etc. It was always better to kill the King and those who had right to the throne as such people are too dangerous whether they want it or not. For example: right now, there is a danger that someone may start a war with Su-won\Kouka in Yona’s name (without Yona’s consent of course, it is not necessary), because someone may find it to be a nice and good pretext to achieve his\her own goal.

As for Su-won, while he does not tell Yona that he deems King Il to be a bad King, in the second chapter there is a clear hint that he thinks so when he answers to Hak: This nation has no need for a weak King.
http://www.titaniascans.com/reader/Akatsuki+no+Yona/002:+A+Torn+Bond/#page=29

Killing Il so that he could become a new King and make necessary changes might not have been the nicest way to deal with the problem, but it was surely the most effective.

 

[Trjpyo]

I can tell you what would have happened if Yona was delusional: She sees all the problems and conflicts in her country...but she averts her eyes. She thinks that it is for example the people s own fault, or the fault of the Generals...everybody were to blame...Except her father of course.
He was just the King for 10 years, who didn t hinder Soo Jin, who ignored the Nadai problems or worse...was clueless....He also was unaware concerning Yan Kumji....who went inside the mausoleum of King Hiryuu and prayed for his countrie s wellbeing....

Bottomline is, i want yona to forgive soowon. What i dont agree with is her current approach of demonizing her father thereby excusing soowon of the murder. It does not send the correct message, the means justify the end. If she does continue along this road, whats there to forgive if she has justified soowon murdering her father— that her father deserved to die bec he was incompetent?

I have nothing against yona seeing reality as it is, its good for her development as i said. But i do not agree with her heavily implying that soowon is justified for murder, rendering him blameless.

I interpret her behavior as rationalization bec of her circumstances. She just came from trauma and shes in a desparate attempt to understand the murder. And for some reason she dismisses soowons words that night that the reason for his murder was for revenge and fulfilling dads wishes. For some reason shes avoiding that.

 

[Aniela]

Su-won sure looked upbeat right after the deed, just like this blood-thirsty person who wished for nothing else but Il'a death
http://mangafox.me/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/63.html

Here too. Such a brighit, beaming with joy face: http://mangafox.me/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c002/8.html

Some long-cherished desire, no less.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2017 ---

@Trjpyo I don't think that what you see is Yona excusing Su-won's behavior. If anything, it's Kusanagi excusing Su-won's behavior. We are not reading a book with third limited, where everythig is skewed by the POV character's opinion. This is manga. People hating on Il for his incompetency - Guen-tea, Lili, Su-jin, the many ordinary people - are not something that Yona is making up to rationalize. Within the manga's world, this is what is happening, and Yona is merely reacting to what she sees - with a reaction that is pretty similar to that of Lili or Guen-tea, I must add.

As a side note, this might stem from Confucianism. While this is a Chinese philosophy, I dare say it is more known in Japan than the Western worldview. The basic premise is that peace and wealth can be achieved by the society if every person works for this goal by fulfilling duties set before them by their position. According to this point of view, a person such as Il, who held the most important position in the country but was inept and refused to step down, is as much a criminal as a murderer, and removing him is considered a good thing.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

I Killing Il so that he could become a new King and make necessary changes might not have been the nicest way to deal with the problem, but it was surely the most effective.

So you think revenge has no role to play at all when killing Il? Just a genuine question. Because in my eyes it really seems to play a big role along with bettering the country. We can even see how emotional he gets at the mere mention of his father.

Su-won sure looked upbeat right after the deed, just like this blood-thirsty person who wished for nothing else but Il'a death
http://mangafox.me/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/63.html

Here too. Such a brighit, beaming with joy face: http://mangafox.me/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c002/8.html

Some long-cherished desire, no less.

Soo-Won barely shows any emotions anyway - and he doesn't seem to be the type to be overjoyed at someone's death.

And I am not saying he ONLY wanted Il's death...but for him revenge was important. I think it's pretty clear that revenge was one of the things he wanted along with making the country better. And if he cared for Il or if he didn't want revenge, maybe he could have thought of another way.

Update:

Another thing I want to point out...why would he lie about his motives to Yona if he was going to kill her anyway. I know there are theories that he was planning to let her go that night all along, but if we just base it on the manga, there is no actual reason he needs to lie to her before finishing her off.

 

[SamuelDean]

If we talk about killing Il...I feel revenge is a primary reason and killing was the most convenient to better the country. Other options had risk and were simply less convenient for Soo-Won but it wasn't impossible to find another option. He just wanted to kill him with his own hands.

I agree.

If for example he didn't want revenge on Il, and actually like Il as a person, then someone as smart as Soo-Won could have found other ways. Like you said, spoken to Yona, Hak etc. So yeah that's pretty much my point.

..Soo Won liking King Il as a person...King Il killed his own father. I think it is understandable for everybody...Hak,Yona or Soo Won to wish for revenge...I just don t think that you have to act that way or that it was the only solution meaning...
A person who acts that way is not ultimatively a victim.
Soo Won was not a mere victim. That is right. Everybody who kills a person, has to accept the guilt. So yes. I agree

About Yona's grief. Tryjpyo is right in a way that Yona was allowed to grieve and she was taken care of by Hak, whereas Hak never got that chance.
Which is why his emotions are pent up. Also Hak and Soo-Won shared a closer bond than Yona and Soo-Won. Yona simply saw him as a major crush, more than a friend, while Hak and Soo-Won were bffs, and Hak thought they shared everything with each other. So he was bound to feel more hurt and angry.

That s why Yona is stronger. She dealt with her emotions and is struggling to come to a solution, whereas Hak still protects himself from thinking too deep.
I will demonstrate what I mean:
What Hak had to face, when Soo Won betrayed him:
a)betrayal of a friend
b) Yona s pain
c) Hak was 18

What Yona had to face, when Soo Won betrayed her:
a) betrayal of the one she loved
b) Hak s pain
c) the murder of her father...She was an orphan whereas Hak still had his adopted family.
d) she had to flee the palace the moment she stepped into the chambers of King Il. Hak had a choice. He could betray Yona and follow Soo Won or he could flee with Yona.
e) She was clueless about the world
f) She was barely 16.

Pretty much...She had pretty much more reason to grieve than Hak. It always puzzles me...

It could have caused too much problems if Il somehow managed to get out of prison, etc. It was always better to kill the King and those who had right to the throne as such people are too dangerous whether they want it or not. For example: right now, there is a danger that someone may start a war with Su-won\Kouka in Yona’s name (without Yona’s consent of course, it is not necessary), because someone may find it to be a nice and good pretext to achieve his\her own goal.

As for Su-won, while he does not tell Yona that he deems King Il to be a bad King. There is a clear hint that he thinks so in the second chapter when he answers to Hak: This nation has no need for a weak King.
http://www.titaniascans.com/reader/Akatsuki+no+Yona/002:+A+Torn+Bond/#page=29

Killing Il so that he could have become a new King and make necessary changes might not have been the nicest way to deal with the problem, but it was surely the most effective.

Yeah...it was the most effective...unfortunately...All the other ways were maybe possible but more difficult.

 

[@Aylinn]

So you think revenge has no role to play at all when killing Il? Just a genuine question. Because in my eyes it really seems to play a big role along with bettering the country. We can even see how emotional he gets at the mere mention of his father.

I think it does, but at the same time becoming the King was also the best way to deal with the problems.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

That s why Yona is stronger. She dealt with her emotions and is struggling to come to a solution, whereas Hak still protects himself from thinking too deep.
I will demonstrate what I mean:
What Hak had to face, when Soo Won betrayed him:
a)betrayal of a friend
b) Yona s pain
c) Hak was 18

What Yona had to face, when Soo Won betrayed her:
a) betrayal of the one she loved
b) Hak s pain
c) the murder of her father...She was an orphan whereas Hak still had his adopted family.
d) she had to flee the palace the moment she stepped into the chambers of King Il. Hak had a choice. He could betray Yona and follow Soo Won or he could flee with Yona.
e) She was clueless about the world
f) She was barely 16.

Pretty much...She had pretty much more reason to grieve than Hak. It always puzzles me...

I think Yona is emotionally the strongest amongst the trio too. She faces everything head strong and she is able to empathize well with others.

We have already seen this flaw in Hak. He doesn't have an idealistic personality like Yona and is unable to forgive like Yona can, or put aside his personal feelings. So this could be a reason why Hak grieves more, and the fact that he was never able to let his grief go during those initial few days. Il was close to him too.

 

[SamuelDean]

Bottomline is, i want yona to forgive soowon. What i dont agree with is her current approach of demonizing her father thereby excusing soowon of the murder. It does not send the correct message, the means justify the end. If she does continue along this road, whats there to forgive if she has justified soowon murdering her father— that her father deserved to die bec he was incompetent?.
I have nothing against yona seeing reality as it is, its good for her development as i said. But i do not agree with her heavily implying that soowon is justified for murder, rendering him blameless.

Yona is still mad about the murder of her father
In the following scene she explains her feelings and reactions:
She grieved similarily to Hak at the beginning and wished for revenge...
Then the following is important:
She has perceived Soo Won s actions and then she developed this idea, that he wished to improve the situation inside of Kouka.
For now...and that part is also necessary to understand her...She doesn t exact revenge on Soo Won. But she is still unsure..that is why she adds for now.
Also she calls herself again and again "King Il s daughter" and ensures that Hak will not forget about that part of her.
So no implication that she wishes to just blame her father...she still values and loves him, but she faces reality and doesn t condemn Soo Won 100 %, because of his actions.

I interpret her behavior as rationalization bec of her circumstances. She just came from trauma and shes in a desparate attempt to understand the murder. And for some reason she dismisses soowons words that night that the reason for his murder was for revenge and fulfilling dads wishes. For some reason shes avoiding that

I interpret her denial of the murder of Yu hon more as a proof, that she still loves her father and doesn t want to think about him committing such a deed.
Soo Won was 9, nearly half as old, as herself, when he lost his father after all. So in a way...the murder would have been more understandable...

 

[@Aylinn]

I interpret her denial of the murder of Yu hon more as a proof, that she still loves her father and doesn t want to think about him committing such a deed.

I think so too. The only time when she ever remembers Su-won’s words about killing Il for revenge is here and it sounds like ‘No way my kind dad would have done something like it.’
http://www.titaniascans.com/reader/Akatsuki+no+Yona/063:+Shaken+Journey/#page=14

It seems she accepted that he was a bad King, but does not want to believe that there may be more to her father than the incompetent, but nice and good person she knows and remembers.