Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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Yes he fought Magellan and lost just as Luffy lost, yes he fought robotized Kuma, who didn't really use his df and only shot lasers, and basically was pacifista level and pacifista are not that great. You forgot to mention he also fought Akainu, that also didn't go well. And I believe Doflamingo meant the Revolutionary army as a whole, Ivankov is just an officer there.
Characters do use their best abilities when necessary. He's done his best, he's just not strong enough. Can't expect a character to do more than they can't.
If I want, I can quote you when you implied Judge was the weakest he has fought since he entered the new world.
Yes, I know he wasn't dominating judge, but if he can reck yonji who is supposedly stronger than judge, don't you think he was holding back against judge?.
If I want, I can quote you when you implied Judge was the weakest he has fought since he entered the new world.
Yes, I know he wasn't dominating judge, but if he can reck yonji who is supposedly stronger than judge, don't you think he was holding back against judge?.
Let me say preemptively that I like Sanji, and Zoro, hell! I like all the strawhats! But having said that, I reserve judgment on Sanjis ability just because I don’t feel like we’ve seen a very good example of him in a fight like we have with most of the others. Now having said THAT, hehe, I don’t understand why people are going out of their way to push the theory that Sanjis pulling an Emperor Palpatine. Hiding his SUPER MEGA strength AND HYPER-SORU Sonic the hedgehog speed and agility until he gets his face melted off by his own kicks...
Examples folllw:
1. Sanji could have kicked Judges ass! He was just stopped by the clones going into a suicide wall to protect him. I mean just cause he used his strongest techniques, Diable Jambe, and was grabbed by said flying leg and slammed into the ground long before the clone-wall. I mean he blocked his spear once with his leg! One whole blocked attack for Christ’s sake! Just because Sanji never landed a hit worthy of mention on Judge doesn’t mean he wasn’t just letting himself get beat up cause he couldn’t bare beating the crap out of a father that declared him dead, put him in an iron mask and disowned him out of disappointment. I mean he obviously LOVES THE GUY!! (In case I wasn’t overt, SarcMarc!)
2. Sanji moved so fast against Oven, no one saw him kick Oven in the shoulder to make it look like Pound hit him! No one saw him!.... other than Pudding....and Chiffon...and Oven...and there’s a good chance Bege... soooo, all of the normal townsfolk didn’t see him cause he was moving so fast!! And that’s only because he WANTED the others to see him. He totally could’ve gone faster if he wanted... just because he said he plan was not to be seen doesn’t mean he didn’t want to be NOTICED, ya know? Cause seen and noticed are entirely different!
3. And if Doflamingo hadn’t grabbed him with his strings he would’ve totally stopped the BirdCage waaaay sooner...but he knew Luffy wanted to beat him so he made sure that his attacks weren’t helpful....
4. Also he was moving sooooo quick that Niji couldn’t dodge his kick to the face. I mean just because Niji is a genetic Uber-mench who’s entire life thus far has been constant battle doesn’t mean that Sanji isn’t waaaay faster! I mean he dented Yonji’s face! Just because it happened off-panel and was only mentioned briefly doesn’t mean he didn’t stand toe to toe and just wallop the shit outta Yonji in the middle of a fight, even IF Yonji said that Sanji got the drop on him!!
Oh and he’s going to kick Big Mom so hard he’s going to knock out her soul and kill her!
**I really hope I was obvious enough in my sarcasm ROFLMAO!!!**
Lol, we'll have to be OVEN to not clearly see what you were doing
Dont mind if i join the fun.
I'm also guessing yonji is so genetically superior that he didn't mind allowing sanji have access to his genetically superior iron face,
it's not like sanjis armament is strong to bend it, right? he was just doing a katakuri, bending his face at will, giving sanji the impression it was his kicks doing it.
I mean..., ganging up to beat someone doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger than anyone of us, why have all the fun alone, it's not like he kicked my ass, I only gave him access to my face and bent it at will.
This man acknowledges that people go through their abilities when fighting and is ignoring Sanji not even using hells memories yet. Hypocrites are hard to discuss things with tbh. When you acknowledge that even Luffy used G2, then 3 and then went on to G4. He also had time to complete his fights. Sanjis fights have not been completed. Saying Sanji lost to Vergo or judge is like saying Luffy lost to cracker after using G2, and 3. Then heir fight got interrupted. I’m sure people will come out and cry that “but he’s not used G4 yet” same instance with Sanji. He’s not used hells memories yet. Pure hypocrisy in this mans reasoning.
I admit he woulda lost yo mingo. But even still the fights that were not concluded you make it out as if we saw the end and sanjis body was close to lifeless on the floor.
Also being a able deny that he meantioned that Sanji lacked speed to land and attack when opponents are aware of him. But since I’ve brought up landing attack of Vergo he’s started to switch to Vergo not caring about his attacks. Even though these said attacks made him bleed. Even if I have and iron body I’m not daft enough to let someone kick me and make me bleed. It’s really stupid.
So with all the explanation, it’s still obvious Bege cooperates with bm enough to get the chance to kill her. He told Oven he’ll dock at the harbour, but does that mean he intends to cooperate. He’s probably taking a calculated risk. So many excuses you’ve given a character that’s not shown anything. First oven was too tall. But yeah we all went along and agreed that sanjis attack was a sneak shot. Then with the he didn’t expect to get attacked. These are pirates for him to assume he was going to fully surrender without a fight was stupid. Oven was stupid to believe someone who married into the family just to get a chance to kill Mam will comply that easily. Very stupid.
Maybe that’s why most hostages holders end up losing or dying. They get confident when they have a hostage. I see that logic now. Because I have a hostage he’ll fully comply.
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Also law proved that armament hardening is not that necessary to whoop someone’s ass. Look how he fodderised Vergo when he got his heart back. And because Oda didn’t show him use hardening type haki I’m going to say he didn’t ether(because people say doffy blocked sanjis kick with his coat, but would he not use invisible haki on it?? But since it’s invisible it makes it easy for them to trash Sanji). So yeah Law defeated Vergo so easily without using haki. Argue that his ability helped. But people tend to say Luffy being rubber is a part of him too lol. So hardening doesn’t mean you’re deffo going to win.
It's been said bege loves to join organizations for the sole purpose of taking out the head, then relaxes and enjoys the show when they fight amongst each other for power.
Brulee said - kid and the rest were escorted out without as much as seeing bigmom's face, why did bege decide to stay and form an alliance with bigmom?
Vergo only attacked twice and one of those attacks broke Sanji's bone. The other attack missed. Anyway, I think we should stop discussing Sanji's power level (for now) we're going in circles.
I'm not sure if he barely had energy left. Given what Luffy is capable of, it's hard to be impressed by something of this caliber. And we did see his speed at or near to full power against Doflamingo. And his speed was probably not enough against Cracker as he had to resort to letting Cracker attack him so he could bounce Cracker back into the biscuits to beat him. Weird that despite Luffy's speed, he was unable to get up close to Cracker and land a hit. Not sure if he has comparable enough speed to deal with Katakuri even at full health, especially when Luffy himself admitted in this chapter just how outmatched he was and was wondering if he could unlock the same haki that Katakuri has. I don't recall Luffy saying he'd do better if he was at full health.
Against Doflamingo he was constantly trying to get close to him but here Luffy is just trying to get away from Katakuri (that's what he was doing before Gear 4) we can't really compare those two situations.
I think there was too many soldier for Luffy to get close to Cracker.
He was trying to think of a way to defeat Katakuri. He wasn't really comaring their strength. He still might not be able to defeat Katakuri but it's obvious that Katakuri has a huge advantage here.
Haki is, but I'm not sure about Diable jambe as that just seems to be an attack. Does it raise Sanji's speed or increase his strength like the Gears do?
Matchup. Luffy couldn't do anything to Perona's ghosts, and if he fought her, he'd have likely lost. And yet Usopp could deal with the ghosts and beat Perona. Has any reader complained about this or claimed Usopp was stronger than Luffy because he could deal with the ghosts whereas Luffy was affected by it? I doubt it because Usopp benefited from the right matchup - his negative personality couldn't be affected by Perona's ghosts. What about when Usopp managed to hurt Luffy and cause damage to him? Did anyone claim he was as strong or stronger than Sanji?
Sanji could beat Katakuri and still be weaker than Luffy just because he has an advantage.
Er, when was he not fast enough to react to Vergo's attack? I remember Sanji matching Vergo blow for blow but having trouble taking his attacks because of Vergo's superior Color of Armament. And as far as I recall, Color of Observation wouldn't predict something like that unless it's Katakuri-level. Sanji, if he even used Color of Observation, would know how the Judge would attack, but not him using his soldiers as shield.
Luffy was able to predict the near future in marineford. And Hancock's sisters were able to do the same thing. So if Sanji had a high level CoO then he should've seen that coming. Maybe he was just careless. But Vergo definately had the upper hand. (Sanji mentions later that It wouldn't have ended well for him if he had continued that fight).
Luffy was able to recover when he was unconscious. And I'm not sure if he did heavily injure Katakuri, it doesn't look like he did. It's not fighting equally regardless as Luffy had to run away after being on the defensive for most of the fight.
I do find it weird though that despite Luffy having trouble with drugged up Hodi, we knew Luffy could beat Doflamingo and didn't what he had in his repertoire, and despite Luffy having severe difficulty against Doflamingo, difficulty against Cracker, and inability to take on both by himself, some readers believed he could beat Big Mom. And yet, despite Sanji not going all out or even losing any of his fight besides against Doflamingo (who to date has amazing feats), readers are assuming he can't beat Katakuri or lacks the power to do so.
I don't remember Luffy having any trouble with Hody. (Except when they fought in water). It seemed like a pretty easy fight.
Luffy is not strong enough to take on Big Mom and Sanji isn't strong enough to take on Katakuri (Most people would agree with this).
Sanji doesn't have any good feats that show he's anywhere near Katakuri's level. In his fight against Vergo, Vergo had the upper hand (Sanji says that himself), It was a complete defeat against Doflamingo, His fight against Judge, even before Judge cheated Sanji wasn't really winning. In fact, it looked like Judge had the upper hand. Luffy would lose to Big Mom if they fought and Sanji would lose to Katakuri If they fought.
But I agree, we can't gauge Oven's strength until he actually fights. Wonder if there'll be gag involved since Oda said Sanji can handle the heat from Diable Jambe because his heart burns hotter, while Oven emanates heat or something.
I don't really believe Sanji is gonna have a full on fight against Oven. Maybe a brief clash but that's it. Bege is already close to the Island and I don't think Oven is strong enough to take on Sanji + Bege. Also, it's unusual for a small fight to start when there's already a Big one going on. Also, the matchup is really bad. Daifuku vs Sanji would've been interesting but heat vs heat doesn't sound that interesting.
Zoro is a freaking beast right now and I'm not even sure Luffy is stronger than him, thing is we haven't even seen Zoro go out, he barely broke his sweat vs Pica and could pretty much hold his ground against Fujitora, not using any of his big guns. I say Luffy and Zoro are kind of on par right now, and they completely outclass Sanji. Luffy should receive a significant power up to outclass Zoro, which can be the case.
We can't say that Zoro is on the same level as Luffy when Zoro hasn't faced a single powerful opponent while Luffy has been facing Yonko commanders.
Zoro wasn't holding his ground against Fujitora. It's cool he manged to come back alive but Fujitora was holding back.
If I want, I can quote you when you implied Judge was the weakest he has fought since he entered the new world.
Yes, I know he wasn't dominating judge, but if he can reck yonji who is supposedly stronger than judge, don't you think he was holding back against judge?.
Yes, he defeated Yonji. I said this earlier, that much is a fact that I have acknowledged. And then it begs the question, so what?
What evidence do you actually have to claim that he's stronger than Judge? You're assuming. Is it because he's a scientist? Is there a panel that actually gave you the hegemony between them all?
You claim Judge the weakest, yet Sanji seemingly had a lot more difficulty against Judge than he did with Yonji. He came out unscathed from his Yonji duel and he didn't against Judge.
Of course, it's convenient to say he was holding back because you don't like the result; I don't make such claims just because I don't like the result. I could say Yonji was holding back and to be honest, Yonji most likely underestimated Sanji, they've had it cemented in their mind that Sanji was weak and possibly led to Sanji having an opening against him. The brothers still carry the same image of Sanji as a child at their initial meeting. No one can say for sure.
Nevertheless, Sanji defeating Yonji isn't relevant, we didn't even get to see the fight. Of the fights we've thus far, seen how things played out outlines how he was never the dominant fighter. He's been subpar at best. He's pretty much struggled to show any superiority over his opponents.
It really doesn't change anything whether or not he defeated Yonji.
Yes, he defeated Yonji. I said this earlier, that much is a fact that I have acknowledged. And then it begs the question, so what?
What evidence do you actually have to claim that he's stronger than Judge? You're assuming. Is it because he's a scientist? Is there a panel that actually gave you the hegemony between them all?
You claim Judge the weakest, yet Sanji seemingly had a lot more difficulty against Judge than he did with Yonji. He came out unscathed from his Yonji duel and he didn't against Judge.
Of course, it's convenient to say he was holding back because you don't like the result; I don't make such claims just because I don't like the result. I could say Yonji was holding back and to be honest, Yonji most likely underestimated Sanji, they've had it cemented in their mind that Sanji was weak and possibly led to Sanji having an opening against him. The brothers still carry the same image of Sanji as a child at their initial meeting. No one can say for sure.
Nevertheless, Sanji defeating Yonji isn't relevant, we didn't even get to see the fight. Of the fights we've thus far, seen how things played out outlines how he was never the dominant fighter. He's been subpar at best. He's pretty much struggled to show any superiority over his opponents.
It really doesn't change anything whether or not he defeated Yonji.
Have you forgotten already?
I'm not claiming yonji is stronger than judge, I said - If i want, i can quote you when you implied judge was the weakest he's faced.
Then I gave my thoughts regarding that.
Have you forgotten already?
I'm not claiming yonji is stronger than judge, I said - If i want, i can quote you when you implied judge was the weakest he's faced.
Then I gave my thoughts regarding that.
When you did say that, and you brought it up, I remember telling you that then it means Judge is stronger:
Or did you forget?
You're acting as if I defended Judge for being stronger than Yonji regardless of the evidence. I didn't.
People can change opinion, and obviously for the most part, I likely didn't recall that fight when I said Judge was the weakest initially.
Anyway, it really doesn't nothing to further your argument.
We saw what happened between Judge and Sanji, and Judge was the aggressor and the dominant fighter.
You're the one now claiming Judge to be the weakest without evidence despite the fact Sanji defeated Yonji. I at least am able to change opinion in light of valid evidence, nothing to do with character favouritism, it's called objectivity.
When there's clearly a change in opinion or a rectification, one doesn't dwell on previous opinion in a discussion, but progresses on to the next.
No one has had issues with Sanji's speed. Not even Judge who'd be considered the weakest of all the foes he's faced in WCI had no issues. Difference with this scene against every other, Sanji was centre of attention in all other scenes where his speed was irrelevant, and here, he's not even thought to be around.
The fundamental truth is, Oven doesn't know Sanji is around; everyone else who fought him and had no issues with his apparently "blinding" speed knew where he was and was their focus; this is a truth no one can remotely deny except in denial of course.
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The fact is Pudding saw him.
Oven doesn't know or have a clue he's there, otherwise, even Pudding would be in danger. As far as he knows, there's absolutely no reason for him to entertain Sanji's presence. So it really is clear Oven has no clue, as far as he's concerned, only Pound is an issue.
Fact is when Sanji fought with his godly speed again:
Judge - He was the centre of attention.
Daifuku - He was the centre of attention.
So, his speed is really nothing when they're aware he's their opponent. Even Oven was able to keep up with Pedro who possesses extraordinary speed.
This really is just a case of Sanji not being acknowledged as he's not known to be around. Nothing indicating his speed is anything exceptional against to the civilians and fodder.
Except you can find me one example where he was facing someone who knew he was their opponent since the New World, and he speed blitzed them into oblivion, perhaps. His speed is really nothing to gawp at in awe. I said it before, he'll probably get a power up, but this scene this chapter, it's nothing.
I stand corrected, not the weakest in the New world, but in whole cake.
My thoughts:
"So, if he can beat yonji whom as you claimed is stronger than judge, then he did definitely hold back against Judge."
So,
As you can see, I wasn't the one that claimed it, you said it just a few pages back.
I stand corrected, not the weakest in the New world, but in whole cake.
So, if he can beat yonji whom as you claimed is stronger than judge, then he did definitely hold back against Judge.
Wrong again, you're making up fallacious statements in order to drive an argument that doesn't represent my opinion. That's now how a debate works. You bring up the opponent's actual beliefs and opinions, and then argue a case for or against it. Not that you bring up opinions they don't hold and then argue it, that makes no sense.
It's like you saying you're not racist, but then I argue from the point of view that you're racist. That's not remotely a debate because I'm using false points that do not represent you, that'd be me being disingenuous. You're more or less doing the same thing here.
Like I told you earlier, that statement was said without taking Yonji into consideration and I rectified it as the spoiler below explicitly shows. So, for you to keep on claiming I implied Yonji as inferior to Judge when I've made it clear it doesn't represent my stance is rather dishonest. You're having to force an opinion on me in order to remotely propagate your own argument and develop it; that's pretty deceptive of you and I'm not sure if you're doing it intentionally, forgot, or misread. I'd assume you misread.
As I did tell you, I'm not of that opinion. I said Judge must be superior to Yonji then. So, your development argument from a point that I don't agree with or adhere to is not one for debate, it's a strawman.
You already know I don't believe Yonji to be stronger than Judge based on the result. With your argument moot now, if you're trying to make a case that Sanji was holding back, there's no evidence unless you can prove Judge to be inferior to Yonji in both speed and strength.
Wrong again, you're making up fallacious statements in order to drive an argument that doesn't represent my opinion. That's now how a debate works. You bring up the opponent's actual beliefs and opinions, and then argue a case for or against it. Not that you bring up opinions they don't hold and then argue it, that makes no sense.
It's like you saying you're not racist, but then I argue from the point of view that you're racist. That's not remotely a debate because I'm using false points that do not represent you, that'd be me being disingenuous. You're more or less doing the same thing here.
Like I told you earlier, that statement was said without taking Yonji into consideration and I rectified it as the spoiler below explicitly shows. So, for you to keep on claiming I implied Yonji as inferior to Judge when I've made it clear it doesn't represent my stance is rather dishonest. You're having to force an opinion on me in order to remotely propagate your own argument and develop it; that's pretty deceptive of you and I'm not sure if you're doing it intentionally, forgot, or misread. I'd assume you misread.
As I did tell you, I'm not of that opinion. I said Judge must be superior to Yonji then. So, your development argument from a point that I don't agree with or adhere to is not one for debate, it's a strawman.
You already know I don't believe Yonji to be stronger than Judge based on the result. With your argument moot now, if you're trying to make a case that Sanji was holding back, there's no evidence unless you can prove Judge to be inferior to Yonji in both speed and strength.
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Never said you were making it up. I said you're clinging on to a point that I redacted in a response to you.
Nothing wrong with quoting. It's quoting statements that one has clearly said they do not stand behind by rectifying or taking it back. Quoting it like they'd adhered to it, It's called being fallacious and devious.
You can't use a point that someone has rectified or taken back as if they still stand behind it.
If you can only argue with points that I have clearly shown do not represent my view, then it's clear you have no point to make.
Your opinion at a time is probably not the opinion you have now. If I argued with you using points that you don't currently stand behind, then what is the point?
You do realise the entire point of a debate is to:
Fundamentally change their opinion with sound reasoning and argument.
You're arguing a point that's not my opinion. What exactly are you trying to change by pretending it to be my opinion and current stance? Nothing. It's casuistry.
It's alright, good to know you've retracted that opinion, anyways, my thoughts on the matter still remains, we've not seen the full extent of his abilities. Not everyone can beat their chest and say we know all what sanji has to offer.
It's alright, good to know you've retracted that opinion, anyways, my thoughts on the matter still remains, we've not seen the full extent of his abilities. Not everyone can beat their chest and say we know all what sanji has to offer.
Well, that opinion was changed long ago and I think you knew, otherwise, you'd have followed it up, but let's not dwell on the past.
We can because we've seen how all his fights have fared.
You're claiming it not to be the extent of his abilities simply because you don't like the result.
It's like a team that has a record for losing almost every match, but then claiming they've not shown what they're capable of, but are the best team in the world. Results speak for themselves, and of course, with context. Nevertheless, Sanji has literally not had 1 dominant show.
It's not like he can increase his speed or his strength, all he has is Diable Jambe. Once that's out the door, he's done for. It's not like he can tap into Gears. He's always been at the back-end.
Luffy and Zoro have all had good performances, Sanji has literally not shined. It's clear how strong he is. Unless Sanji is now bi-sexual, and can't help but hold back on both makes and females now, I can see some truth to such a claim. And no, I have nothing against one's orientation. Each to their own.
I understand you perfectly, at times it seems as if I'm difficult or rigid. While your points are spot on, I'm not willing to agree 100%, simply because irrespective of whether he'll lose or win, we need to see him complete his fight 100%.
Someone have probably said this but - despite luffy underperforming against mingo in gear 2/3,
Had the fight stop there, then we would be confused if luffy really learned anything at all during the time skip.
If immediately after that, he fights cracker, also in gear2, and the fight is not allowed to continue to the end, even i may start asking question s.
To guage his full potential, he has to fight to the death or be beaten to a point he can't stand again, then I'll agree with you 100%, but for now, he didn't complete the fight (with Judge), so I can't say (100%) he showed all he got. That's just what I think.
Yeah I don’t know how to attack pictures to post but it’s on page 10, you attached a picture of Jude and Daifuku. But you ignored Vergo. Which makes me lead to believeing you conveniently ignored that or to give you benefit of the doubt you forgot.
Even on the same page you claimed oven kept up with perdro even though it was just another jnconcluded fight. Another thing you ignored was that oven attacked Pedro, and Pedro blocked not knowing ovens ability. But to you that was oven keeping up lol
I have a screenshot but I don’t know how to add lol
Luffy having a fruit or not is a non issue IMO. Sure, the fruit helps and absolutely adds to his strength and capability but if he didn't have it he'd simply have to fight differently. Again, non issue.
With zoro I would only be concerned about him being left behind by luffy if luffy does get a power boost that allows him to beat katakuri. It would be a very substantial boost very quickly. IF luffy and zoro are currently roughly comparable as they usually seem to have been in the past then luffy getting such a boost would absolutely have zoro biting the dust. However sanji does seem to have been left behind. Meanwhile zoro has yet to need azura and luffy has gotten to a point where gear 2-3 can be used casually without significant or any drain to his body and instead has the substantially more powerful gear as his strongest form you have using his diable jambe which seems... underwhelming at best. Sanji hasn't even shown hardening at this point. I am sure oda is planning for sanji to get more however as things are I don't see how sanji has been anything but left behind. Honestly, in his case I am banking on him actually getting the physical enhancements his brothers enjoy so that he can catch up.
It does work. Hardening is nothing special. If you need it, you use it.
It's like having a broken leg, having access to getting a cast, but not using it. The only conclusion is, Sanji's lacking in intelligence and has Hardening, or he doesn't. Sanji is one of the most intelligent in the crew and it's more like that he doesn't.
If you also notice, Sword fighters tend to not expend Haki as much as people who fight with their fists. Swords are sharp and made of steel. Invisible Armament alone should suffice in doing adequate degrees of damage. Vergo for the majority of the time used his Invisible Haki, at least it's reasonable to assume he did. He only usd Hardening when Tashigi threw a slash towards himself, and he blocked it, otherwise, he'd possibly have been injured.
Zoro and Fujitora are Sword fighters. They don't need to waste Hardening the way people who brawl with their fists do. A fist isn't like a Sword that's made of metal, it makes sense that they need that boost to increase their power and thereby increase capacity for destruction; we see this with Luffy, Chinjao, Joker, Katakuri, etc. Even Cracker didin't make use of Hardening much, this is something all Swords fighters have consistently pulled off.
Do you remember the Cracker fight? Luffy exhausted his base, Gear 2nd, 3rd before using 4th. No one goes straight to their most powerful technique unless they've ascertained their least powerful techniques won't suffice.
Katakuri was dominating his fight with Luffy without the Block Mochi. He only begun to increase the intensity the more he saw that Luffy was proving far more troublesome than he knew. That's when he started to use his spear and started doubling up on his attacks because Luffy's evasive prowess was becoming much more problematic. He only resort to Block Mochi when he was furious and when he realised Luffy's Gear 4th was too powerful for the standard Block attacks, he had to use peerless donuts. It's consistent.
If you re-read Dressrosa, you'd know Joker was also exhausting his options before utilising Awakening. He kicked Luffy with athlete thread, a kick that shot Luffy very far distances originally, and he realised here that the kick was useless.
Clearly, he had high expectations for this attack, but it fell short. If you read on further, it's literally after ascertaining he couldn't go toe to toe with Luffy that he decided to use Awakening exactly as stated earlier. No one goes uses their most powerful attacks unless they know their weaker attacks aren't effective via trial.
Could even question why didn't Luffy use Gear 4th in Fishman Island. Before that, he was haemorrhaging after Hody bit him. That haemorrhage almost led to his death and he needed a blood transfusion. If Luffy is Haemorrhaging and uses Gear 4th which uses Gear 2nd's mechanics, and on top of that strains him physically, he might have haemorrhaged a lot quicker than he did just using Gear 3rd to finish off Hody. We see how he has only just started adapting to it, and how he was only able to throw one blow, one Gear 4th attack might not have been sufficient. Sometimes, more is better than quality, and Gear 3rd seemed like the best course of action for that situation.
Not sure this is even a valid question here, why Ace, Boa or Joker used King's Haki? For one, Ace used it unconsciously as a child, doesn't mean he learnt how to use it. Luffy used it unconsciously, and it's not until Rayleigh taught him that he learnt to use it. Before Rayleigh even taught Luffy, he referenced the fact that Luffy had shown he had this innate power before teaching him how to use it. As for why Boa didn't use it or Joker, not really valid questions, in what context is King's Haki supposed to be imperatively used?
Regarding Marineford, you do know we didn't see anyone use Hardening. You're also aware that we never see Hardening until the time skip where Luffy is taught how to use Haki. You do realise we see and mostly learn and know of things from the perspective of the protagonist and his crew. If Luffy couldn't discern Hardening or even Invisible Armament, how can we? It's not until Luffy learns Haki that we begin to discern Invisible Haki and Hardening. So, not sure how you can claim with such certainty that Sengoku never used Hardening and it may not have been imperative for him to do so.
Characters do use their best abilities when necessary. He's done his best, he's just not strong enough. Can't expect a character to do more than they can't.
Very convenient excuse. He's not needed to train his CoA beyond Invisible. So much for being ambitious. I don't think the teacher is the issue, it's talent. Could be taught by the best and put through the toughest training, wouldn't matter if one didn't have the talent. It's like taking the most difficult course at University and having the best teachers, but if one lacks the intellectual capacity, the talent and determination, it won't matter.
How you can say he's not needed Hardening when he broke his shin is beyond me. It'd have been very beneficial if he had Hardening. Even his Diable Jambe will be more powerful and benefit from Hardening.
Sanji has looked awful since the skip, that much is a fact when compared to his pre-skip where he wasn't being treated as almost comic relief. It's clear he's levels below the others. If anything, it's necessary for plot to have Sanji this weak in order for his situation to be as authentic as possible for WCI. It's because of his weakness we've seen Sanji in tears, we've seen him helpless, broken and extremely vulnerable. Nonetheless, there's no doubt he will get his due, looks more like his narrative journey before he gets his strength developed on par or to a level where he can compete with Luffy and Zoro.
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Nope, Sanji wasn't at eye level.
And when he kicked Oven, he was right below Oven. Oven was looking upward at pound, Sanji is not up. Not sure how you claim Sanji as being at eye level.
OP Wiki aren't infallible, they're not entirely accurate. Wiki are just a bunch of forums who discuss and come to a conclusion, no different from this forums. So, just because they write something doesn't make it accurate.
Fact is Sanji has no Hardening. And Oda has shown Hardening in Black backgrounds before, fact.
If you think not having a good teacher is just a “convenient excuse” then you are clearly bias. Not having a teacher is a legitimate explanation for not developing something as well as others. A good teacher can take someone like Coby and turn him from a useless gag character and into a rokushiki master with very strong haki (which took a prodigy like Rob Lucci years).
Luffy and Zoro were both taught haki by some of the strongest characters in OP. Sanji ran from people for two years and fought chefs who taught him their secret ingredients. He specifically refused to learn newkama kenpo or fighting from them.
It’s not an excuse, it’s just obvious that his growth wouldn’t be as dramatic as two people learning from some of the strongest people.
And when he kicked Oven, he was right below Oven. Oven was looking upward at pound, Sanji is not up. Not sure how you claim Sanji as being at eye level.
And if you reread my post, you'll see that I said he jumped to Oven at eye level and then got under him to kick him. Oven was in a position to see Sanji before he got kicked.
OP Wiki aren't infallible, they're not entirely accurate. Wiki are just a bunch of forums who discuss and come to a conclusion, no different from this forums. So, just because they write something doesn't make it accurate.
Fact is Sanji has no Hardening. And Oda has shown Hardening in Black backgrounds before, fact.
Clearly. Which is why I said I check the manga, and why I didn't claim Sanji had Koka. OP Wiki is excellent for pinpointing evidence quickly, like Luffy all but saying Sanji can use Color of Armament (unless Color of Observation can deal with Caesar). The Wiki didn't have a source in the manga that implies or states or shows that Sanji can use Koka. If I recall correctly, you're the one who claimed Sanji cannot use or does not have the ability to use Color of Armament.
Against Doflamingo he was constantly trying to get close to him but here Luffy is just trying to get away from Katakuri (that's what he was doing before Gear 4) we can't really compare those two situations.
I think there was too many soldier for Luffy to get close to Cracker.
He was trying to think of a way to defeat Katakuri. He wasn't really comaring their strength. He still might not be able to defeat Katakuri but it's obvious that Katakuri has a huge advantage here.
It increases the overall power of the kick. That's why Sanji uses it, no?
Too many soldiers isn't an excuse, if Luffy has the speed then he should be able to blaze through the soldiers and get right to Cracker. Sanji could likely have done that.
Yes he does. Luffy has to find a way to either stop Katakuri's prediction or increase his speed. All in all, the former would be amazing if it happened in a gag manner.
Yes, and gomu gomu no bullet allows Luffy to hit an enemy multiple times, but I don't consider that a powerup. it's part of their repertoire, unless Diable Jambe enhances Sanji the way Gear 2 does.
But what is the advantage?
Luffy outclasses Sanji in pretty much everything. Luffy can use fire too. So what can Sanji do that Luffy cannot do?
Luffy was able to predict the near future in marineford. And Hancock's sisters were able to do the same thing. So if Sanji had a high level CoO then he should've seen that coming. Maybe he was just careless. But Vergo definately had the upper hand. (Sanji mentions later that It wouldn't have ended well for him if he had continued that fight).
He did injure Katakuri severely after using Gear 4. Katakuri didn't look good after taking a beating from G4 Luffy.
I don't remember Luffy having any trouble with Hody. (Except when they fought in water). It seemed like a pretty easy fight.
Luffy is not strong enough to take on Big Mom and Sanji isn't strong enough to take on Katakuri (Most people would agree with this).
Sanji doesn't have any good feats that show he's anywhere near Katakuri's level. In his fight against Vergo, Vergo had the upper hand (Sanji says that himself), It was a complete defeat against Doflamingo, His fight against Judge, even before Judge cheated Sanji wasn't really winning. In fact, it looked like Judge had the upper hand. Luffy would lose to Big Mom if they fought and Sanji would lose to Katakuri If they fought.
I don't really believe Sanji is gonna have a full on fight against Oven. Maybe a brief clash but that's it. Bege is already close to the Island and I don't think Oven is strong enough to take on Sanji + Bege. Also, it's unusual for a small fight to start when there's already a Big one going on. Also, the matchup is really bad. Daifuku vs Sanji would've been interesting but heat vs heat doesn't sound that interesting.
honestly, all we can do is make conjectures. But we do know that Sanji has yet to go all out, and he's shown impressive speed underwater, against Oven, and has the ability to walk in the sky. It's not hard to believe he can be faster than Luffy and have kicks that are almost as strong as Gear 4. Has Luffy used fire against Katakuri?
Did he predict the near future or did his instincts and Mihawk's aura tell him what'd happen if he stretched his arms, knowing that swords can actually hurt him? It's weird Luffy was able to do that without knowing how to use haki, but he hasn't been able to replicate that feat again. And I thought the Hancock sisters were able to see what Luffy was doing without needing to look at him.
True, but we haven't seen haki constantly activated. Sanji likely didn't have his haki activated to see what was coming, or he focused his haki on his legs. If Vergo did have the upper hand, he'd have been able to beat Sanji or cause more serious damage to him, not end the fight with Sanji being able to run and move as if he never fought Vergo. And Sanji didn't say he'd lose, but that he could have been in a state comparable to Luffy after his fight with Lucci or Crocodile.
How is Katakuri moving and fighting like he wasn't injured, then? I'll reread the chapter at some point, but I don't remember Katakuri being that affected.
Luffy did have trouble with Hodi even before they went underwater. He couldn't put Hodi down because of all the pills Hodi was popping to enhance his strength and durability.
well, most people thought Luffy was strong enough to take on Big Mom, so excuse me if I don't care what most people think. herd mentality is very detrimental to society and life in general. And to be fair, Zoro and Luffy got blasted away easily by Lucci and the giraffe, but they were able to get the win in the end. It's not like the fights were full and complete fights that we can determine whether the Judge was superior, or whether Vergo would have won in the end.
) we're going in circles.
