One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[roggie]

Sanji sadly seems left behind. At first i was against him recieving a tech boost from his family, because it would change a lot his character, but on a second thought, change what?! the guy has nothing, a non-black black leg! An infamous, overly used diable jambe! What about a Diable Corps? A full heaten body to face Oven!? A gene splicer injection to to awake his dormant genes? A cyber suit? Really, i'm willing to trade anything for a power up.

Still, i do think he has a little more to show.

 

[kkck]

Worth noting here, oven is a terrible matchup for sanji. As in, it is probably about as bad as it gets. Being a heat man he should be basically immune to diable jambe, essentially everything sanji can throw at him. If sanji does go up against oven at some point, and defeating him would be a huge feat, he would have to do so relying or something entirely different from diable jambe. Given what we know right now sanji would have to rely on his strength and haki which at this points gives him bad odds. Perhaps if oven is indeed meant to fight sanji then this is evidence that sanji will have an upgrade soon. And it is worth noting that defeating oven is likely a bigger feat than defeating, say, pica.

 

[Hrathgrath]

Lol, Soru is used to move away from an opponent.

Of course it's not solely to get away, it's simply an ability to enhance movement. o being as formidable as he was pre-skip. If his performances in the New World were exactly as they were against all his opponents, but against, women, then I could see how one could claim he's holding back, but it isn't the case.

People just don't want to accept what they see, that's why I personally hate character favouritism. It makes people blind to facts just because they can't accept their favourite character has a flaw or isn't performing well against...(edited by Hrathgrath for space convenience)

The reason I say the thing about soru is because of what you said in your first post and then contradicted(or clarified?) yourself in the other post. As far as Sanji not having hardening haki, didn’t you say before that CoA is entirely about hardening? I’ll have to pull up the page but I personally believe that Oda added the dark coloring to the manga to show when haki was being used to the reader because you never (and again I’ll have to verify this, but as I remember...)see the coloring of CoA before time skip. I don’t think there is an invisible version of CoA and a visible one. If anything I might agree that only haki users can see when haki is being used (that would explain the change in the artwork) but even that is just an idea that I don’t really have a lot of faith in.. And with Sanji being stronger than has been shown or not stronger than has been shown, all I was saying is that he hasn’t had a full on fight like Luffy showcasing his abilities in full, so in my mind, his postskip strength has yet to be fully revealed, wether strong OR weak.

I know I said this before but you guys need to try having a discussion without insulting each other’s intelligence. Everyone has a voice here and I ALWAYS reserve the right to agree to disagree.

 

[M3J]

Worth noting here, oven is a terrible matchup for sanji. As in, it is probably about as bad as it gets. Being a heat man he should be basically immune to diable jambe, essentially everything sanji can throw at him. If sanji does go up against oven at some point, and defeating him would be a huge feat, he would have to do so relying or something entirely different from diable jambe. Given what we know right now sanji would have to rely on his strength and haki which at this points gives him bad odds. Perhaps if oven is indeed meant to fight sanji then this is evidence that sanji will have an upgrade soon. And it is worth noting that defeating oven is likely a bigger feat than defeating, say, pica.

Wanna bet Diable Jambe will get so hot that most heat-tolerant fighters will be affected by the heat? Like how Zoro was able to get the strength to slice through Daz Bones, actually.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2017 ---

Lol, Soru is used to move away from an opponent.

er, soru is used to enhance speed. Coby used soru to try and speedblitz Luffy.

 

[kkck]

@kkck Terrible match up? You call a chef VS an oven a terrible match up? (Just kidding). But really, the same could be said for Oven. Sanji´s Diable Jamble may counter Oven´s heat to the point of nullifying it. We´ll just have to wait and see, and everything we say now is pure speculation.

It is quite clear that Sanji has been lagging behind Luffy and Zoro since the TS, but I think Oda has been setting everything up for a BIG power up. Really, how many times a character had so many possibles options? All strawhats will have to become stronger sooner or later, and I doubt Oda will let pass this chance. So far, Sanji could:

1) Become a power ranger.
2) Awake his genes.
3) Awake his genes and become a power ranger.
4) Show any hidden technique acquired during TS:

• Turn his legs black with CoA
• New versions of Diable Jamble
• Any other power up acquired during TS

Actually, I dont want to spoil anything, but I think I know why Sanji has been hiding his power up.

Spoiler: Sanji´s Secret

That´s it guys, Sanji will go again into Newkama mode. Only then, he can release his true potential as the legendary Newkama, master of Newkama Kenpo, one who is said to be born only once every 1000 years. Sanji was simply too embarrassed of it to use it until now, but not even Katakuri would be rival against it.

It is well likely that sanji could have some degree of resistance to oven's abilities however barring bullshit oven should have immunity to sanji's diable jambe. Oven is a heat man, oven effectively IS heat. Whereas sanji merely uses fire. I daresay it is not completely impossible for sanji to surpass the heat oven is capable of however it is a very unlikely scenario at best considering oven IS heat and he is also one of big mom's main crewmembers.

I keep thinking of a raid suit for sanji though TBH I don't think he needs it at all. It seems to work as an armor however under normal circumstances it seems like haki already does that. Mobility wise sanji already has sky and blue walk. And if the suits are what give the siblings their abilities then sanji already has that covered with diable jambe. The suits are invariably powerful evidenced by how the vinsmokes have performed against big mom's crew in general however sanji is simply above that, the most benefit he could get from the suit is whatever protection it gives as purely armor.

I am thinking that perhaps sanji could get access to another element. Say, sanji gets the ability to use thunder mink style. I am not really sure a new version of diable jambe will cut it though.Thinking about the TS, I remembered sanji did spend 2 years with the newkama and presumably he was taught the newkama kenpo. Perhaps the reason he has apparently not evidenced the sort of growth luffy and zoro showed is that sanji is ashamed of the bulk of his power being newkama kenpo and for the time being he refrains from using it. I kinda want to see how pudding would react to sanji using a newkama kenpo technique.

 

[warriorofvirtue]

Sanji is the cook though. Luffy and Zoros job is to fight. Sanji being a cook that can stand toe to toe with them is enough to warrant respect. Sanji also has the added restriction of not fighting with his hands. That’s something! I think everyone is so focused on ranking the monster trio that were failing to recognize the accomplishment of being mentioned as part of the monster trio. Zoro and Luffy have both had training from world renowned fighters for 2 years, Sanji was chased, taught okama kenpo probably and honed his cooking skills for 2 years.

 

[kkck]

Wanna bet Diable Jambe will get so hot that most heat-tolerant fighters will be affected by the heat? Like how Zoro was able to get the strength to slice through Daz Bones, actually.

I don't rule out this being possible, I am just saying it is not a likely scenario. I am not so sure the daz bone situation is comparable.

 

[M3J]

It is well likely that sanji could have some degree of resistance to oven's abilities however barring bullshit oven should have immunity to sanji's diable jambe. Oven is a heat man, oven effectively IS heat. Whereas sanji merely uses fire. I daresay it is not completely impossible for sanji to surpass the heat oven is capable of however it is a very unlikely scenario at best considering oven IS heat and he is also one of big mom's main crewmembers.

I keep thinking of a raid suit for sanji though TBH I don't think he needs it at all. It seems to work as an armor however under normal circumstances it seems like haki already does that. Mobility wise sanji already has sky and blue walk. And if the suits are what give the siblings their abilities then sanji already has that covered with diable jambe. The suits are invariably powerful evidenced by how the vinsmokes have performed against big mom's crew in general however sanji is simply above that, the most benefit he could get from the suit is whatever protection it gives as purely armor.

I am thinking that perhaps sanji could get access to another element. Say, sanji gets the ability to use thunder mink style. I am not really sure a new version of diable jambe will cut it though.Thinking about the TS, I remembered sanji did spend 2 years with the newkama and presumably he was taught the newkama kenpo. Perhaps the reason he has apparently not evidenced the sort of growth luffy and zoro showed is that sanji is ashamed of the bulk of his power being newkama kenpo and for the time being he refrains from using it. I kinda want to see how pudding would react to sanji using a newkama kenpo technique.

Raid suit would be a horrible idea. And it'd kind of not fit as Sanji would be fighting with enhancement, while Franky is an enhancement. If that makes sense.

Newkama kenpo would be hilarious though.

I don't rule out this being possible, I am just saying it is not a likely scenario. I am not so sure the daz bone situation is comparable.

I think it is, and it'd be a great gag way for Sanji to win. Have his Diable Jambe be one of the hottest materials on Earth but not affect Sanji because his heart burns even hotter. Very much gag.

Don't be dopey, of course it's comparable. Zoro had to turn up his strength in order to cut through steel, whereas Sanji would have to amp up the heat and burn to burn Oven. Would be an odd gag, but eh.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

If you think not having a good teacher is just a “convenient excuse” then you are clearly bias. Not having a teacher is a legitimate explanation for not developing something as well as others. A good teacher can take someone like Coby and turn him from a useless gag character and into a rokushiki master with very strong haki (which took a prodigy like Rob Lucci years).

Luffy and Zoro were both taught haki by some of the strongest characters in OP. Sanji ran from people for two years and fought chefs who taught him their secret ingredients. He specifically refused to learn newkama kenpo or fighting from them.

It’s not an excuse, it’s just obvious that his growth wouldn’t be as dramatic as two people learning from some of the strongest people.

Not a bias, fact is no matter how great your teacher is, talent. Nothing can be done without talent. Coby could never become as strong as he is without having talent.

No matter how great your teacher is, if the student is just inherently stupid and unintelligent, it's a waste of time.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Sanji is the cook though. Luffy and Zoros job is to fight. Sanji being a cook that can stand toe to toe with them is enough to warrant respect. Sanji also has the added restriction of not fighting with his hands. That’s something! I think everyone is so focused on ranking the monster trio that were failing to recognize the accomplishment of being mentioned as part of the monster trio. Zoro and Luffy have both had training from world renowned fighters for 2 years, Sanji was chased, taught okama kenpo probably and honed his cooking skills for 2 years.

Zoro doesn’t need fight with his legs what’s your point??

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yes he was.

False, he wasn't lol.

Oven was looking upwards at Pound. If Sanji was at eye level, he'd be exactly in the same place as Pound. Sanji is below.

er, soru is used to enhance speed. Coby used soru to try and speedblitz Luffy.

Wrong again buddy.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2017 ---

The reason I say the thing about soru is because of what you said in your first post and then contradicted(or clarified?) yourself in the other post.

Would be like seeing Coby use Soru and trying to claim Coby is superior to Luffy in speed. Many fighters are capable of moving at fast speeds without the use of Soru.

Point is Soru is just a technique for movement. Whether it's to an opponent or away from an opponent, that's really al it's for. When 2 characters are standing at close-ranged and duking it out, Soru is irrelevant unless to move away or come at a different angle.

Luffy hardly uses it in his base and is a better fighter than those capable of using it.

As far as Sanji not having hardening haki, didn’t you say before that CoA is entirely about hardening?

Never said that. Haki isn't only Black. There are 2 subcategories.

I don’t think there is an invisible version of CoA and a visible one.

Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading & Invisible post-timeskip:

1. Bobby Funk explicitly states he used Armament haki, yet his sword isn't Black.
   Spoiler

   
2. Haki is invisible with pekoms against Caribou.
   Spoiler

   
3. Luffy against Caesar, invisible haki.
   Spoiler

   
4. Tashigi cut Monet in Fishman Island without Black Armament.
   Spoiler

   
5. Luffy claims to have punched Trebol with Haki, yet his hands are not black.
   Spoiler

   
6. Luffy kicked Trebol here with INvisible Armament Haki and we know this because Luffy always assumed Trebol to be a Logia.
   Spoiler

   
7. Why didn't Sabo's pole cut in 2 whilst in a clash against a sword wielded by Fujitora if not for Haki?
   Spoiler

   
8. Burgess attempts to stab Sabo who he knows is a Logia, there's no way it wasn't imbued with Haki if he hoped to be successful.
   Spoiler

   

There's so much evidence that there are 2 applications of Haki. If not, then all this scenes should be regarded as mistakes, and no such issues have been brought to light nor have they been rectified in the volumes. There are indeed 2 applications of haki which is why Black Haki is such a big deal. Hardening is only possessed by those who have mastered it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

guys you need to stop the drug at some point too much analysis won't bring you anywhere its like a financial analysis working on too many equations and forgetting the context about the stock market

@Hannibal Psyche whats your call on next chapter ? expectations ?
Thanks
A

I came across something earlier regarding Carrot.

Her attack is called "Electrical Luna". Luna is Latin for the moon apparently. Maybe their Electro of the Mink is enhanced by the moon. Guessing the fullmoon would make it more potent or stronger. Perhaps, it's because of this Electro that they're able to move so quickly and is the reasoon they're physically very impressive.

Found it pretty interest that Jimbei also wants to go on the offensive instead of just running away. I do wonder if he's going to make a call for any sharks. We know there are sea creatures in Tottoland he could probably take advantage of. We saw him use one to get to Big Mom.

As for Bege, he still has a Kairoseki spear. That could very well come into play very soon. It will be useful against DF users. And I don't expect we're going to see much of Luffy and Katakuri. There's only 2-3 chapters left until this volume end. Their encounter will probably be put on hold for a major cliff-hanger or hint towards how he fares with his incoming Haki progression.

And I think we'll get to see what Germa are doing, and maybe some more regarding CP-0 and Caesar. We might even get this as the cliffhanger for the end of volume chapter.

 

[warriorofvirtue]

It’s not as much of an accomplishment as Sanji not using his hands at all. That’s the point. There’s nothing to argue here.

 

[kkck]

Funny fact that I didnt know was that Mochi is a dessert that people bake before New Years Eve in Japan. Now hopefully Luffy will take down Katakuri, one of the Sweet Commander with the powers of Mochi-Mochi No Mi before New Years Eve.

It really heads at one direction right now. Everyone is soon at Cacao Island, Luffy needs a few min before he enters Mirror World, Jimbei and the rest will come in time before Big Mom arrives from Peanut Island. Full moon is incoming apperently and that will create some havoc.
Dont forget the Germa 66.

I wonder if luffy would indeed head directly back to the mirror world once he recovers his haki. He has been pretty exhausted for a while. First his fight with cracker which lasted an eternity, then a few other fights, then his short confrontation with big mom after which he immediately passed out and then his fight with cracker. Considering how luffy performed against big mom it's already a miracle that he didn't pass out against katakuri much earlier. Heck, perhaps we can make the case that luffy's haki is already evolving as the chapter suggested was possible given how quickly luffy recovered and how long he lasted. It'd make more sense if luffy gets to rest and eat before confronting katakuri again, specially since there is no reason for him to rush. Katakuri is stranded in mirror world, he isn't going anywhere.

 

[Beagopa]

I wonder if luffy would indeed head directly back to the mirror world once he recovers his haki. He has been pretty exhausted for a while. First his fight with cracker which lasted an eternity, then a few other fights, then his short confrontation with big mom after which he immediately passed out and then his fight with cracker. Considering how luffy performed against big mom it's already a miracle that he didn't pass out against katakuri much earlier. Heck, perhaps we can make the case that luffy's haki is already evolving as the chapter suggested was possible given how quickly luffy recovered and how long he lasted. It'd make more sense if luffy gets to rest and eat before confronting katakuri again, specially since there is no reason for him to rush. Katakuri is stranded in mirror world, he isn't going anywhere.

Luffy also said he wanted to fight Kata at full power. He still has hours to kill. As stupid as it sounds, Luffy may be intentionally letting Kata’s haki recharge.

Pulling a Goku when he gave cell a senzu bean

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

I, for one, don't see what the problem is with Sanji's current level. He's the cook, and his own purposes aren't as strength-related as Luffy's or Zoro's...And, it would be quite illogical and even unfair if he was shown to be in the same league as them when he clearly hasn't spent as much time training, in his life before being a Strawhat and during the Timeskip. Luffy has trained all his life, Zorro even more, whereas Sanji has mainly cooked, and fought only as a side activity.
So what, he should be a genius cook and such a talented fighter that he is as good as them with way less effort?
It's the same as saying Chopper should be a super good fighter in addition to being a genius doctor, just because he's a character you like. Anyways Jinbei joining the crew will hopefully provide it with a fighting member that may be on par with the monster duo
I'm glad this arc is on its way to its end, not a big fan of most of it...I really disliked the nakama rescue plot device being used again, the lack of coherence in the reactions of said nakama surprised me, I think the way his backstory was tied to WCI arc and Big Mom was clumsy, and I really am fed up with the whole food-based characters, powers, athmosphere, backgrounds etc...
That, and: Germa 66, flying suits and genetic engineering? Really now?
The only perks were awesome Brooke, seeing Bege and Jinbei joining....
Please, let it be over soon so we can have Wano already...

Law is a doctor and he’s the strongest in his crew I believe. Role in the ship has nothing to do with strength. Although I have to admit that the training Sanji got was kinda shit. If he got sent to the long leg tribe island or something then he’ll be better imo . Also I do believe kuma knew what he was doing when he dispersed the straw hats he probably sent them to the most favourable island. Sanji lost to the weakest of the 99recepie chef right and I believe he didn’t leave until he defeated all of them. So just like Luffy must have defeated all 500animals in his training island, Sanji defeated the chefs(animals are probably stronger in comparison to chef). And Zoro I believe fought the babbbons time and time again until they gave up.

 

[kkck]

Law is a doctor and he’s the strongest in his crew I believe. Role in the ship has nothing to do with anything. Although I have to admit that the training Sanji got was kinda shit. If he got sent to the long leg tribe island or something then he’ll be the best rn. Also I do believe kuma knew what he was doing when he dispersed the straw hats he probably sent them to the most favourable island. Sanji lost to the weakest of the 99recepie chef right and I believe he didn’t leave until he defeated all of them. So just like Luffy must have defeated all 500animals in his training island, Sanji defeated the chefs(animals are probably stronger in comparison to chef). And Zoro I believe fought the babbbons time and time again until they gave up.

I think that is more or less correct. When sanji started his training the point was made that he was fighting the entire island for his principles. So while he didn't quite get a big name to train him, he did fight an entire island where presumably there were some big but not quite as big names (say, ivankov and inazuna). It's not like rayleigh trained luffy for the entirety of the two years, luffy did train alone for substantial amounts of time.

As for the baboons, we specifically saw that zoro defeated them. That was before mihawk even agreed to train him.

 

[M3J]

False, he wasn't lol.

Oven was looking upwards at Pound. If Sanji was at eye level, he'd be exactly in the same place as Pound. Sanji is below.

Wrong again buddy.

And Sanji was close to Pound's height so he could have been seen.

Er, the picture itself shows Coby using Soru to run at Luffy.

Luffy also said he wanted to fight Kata at full power. He still has hours to kill. As stupid as it sounds, Luffy may be intentionally letting Kata’s haki recharge.

Pulling a Goku when he gave cell a senzu bean

Possible, but hopefully not in this arc. Luffy most likely won't want to fight until he's 100% either.

 

[thedude]

Law is a doctor and he’s the strongest in his crew I believe. Role in the ship has nothing to do with strength. Although I have to admit that the training Sanji got was kinda shit. If he got sent to the long leg tribe island or something then he’ll be better imo . Also I do believe kuma knew what he was doing when he dispersed the straw hats he probably sent them to the most favourable island. Sanji lost to the weakest of the 99recepie chef right and I believe he didn’t leave until he defeated all of them. So just like Luffy must have defeated all 500animals in his training island, Sanji defeated the chefs(animals are probably stronger in comparison to chef). And Zoro I believe fought the babbbons time and time again until they gave up.

...his training wouldn't have been better if he went to the long leg tribe because it's a freaking manga, and the mangaka was going to make his training "results" whatever he chose to make them. Sanji isn't a real person, so sending him "elsewhere" wouldn't have changed the result.

(Sorry if that comes off pissy, but we do need to remember this isn't real, no one "trained", it's all a story that will go wherever the author wants it to).

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

And Sanji was close to Pound's height so he could have been seen.

Er, the picture itself shows Coby using Soru to run at Luffy.

Nope, wrong. He was behind pound for one. Pound was up - Oven was looking up at Pound; Sanji was below. All of Oven's focus was on Pound, so you're wrong, he couldn't see Sanji. He couldn't even see Chiffon.

And Oven also acted as a distraction. Distractions work by gaining the attention of someone in order to give someone the chance to escape or land a blow. That's exactly why Sanji took advantage of Pound attacking Oven - he knew Oven would be too absorbed with Pound to detect him.

Also, wouldn't require being an optician, but peripheral vision becomes narrow viewed the closer to an object is to the eyes. It was impossible for Oven to have noticed Sanji given all the factors. That much is a fact.

Yes, Soru can be used to run at people, that's a given. It's a movement technique.