Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[MrSchmitty7]

Sure Mael is stronger for the larger proportion of the day, but so is Ludoshel at other times - since sunshine weakens.

Indura) So, you're telling me that a very rare and exclusive power to the highest tiered of individuals in the Demon Clan, that requires the selection of the Demon King himself, along with the requirement of 50k+, sacrifice of 6 hearts, your consciousness and all the while forfeiting your life - warrants 10-20k of PL only? Ridiculous. If Ludoshel was only 10k above Monspiet + Derriere then they wouldn't have immediately made such a considerable decision, and if Indura was only 10-20k above him then he wouldn't have struggled as he did.

''It is obvious'' - not really. Once again, manga events clearly depict that she did better against an opponent that the Archangels were helpless too - why are you denying this? She did better, there is no denying this - stop. If her magic was weaker than Ludoshel's, then her spell would've immediately failed and not make the Indura's struggle - they would've immediately resisted her spell with ease and not require to advance their demonic transformation to fight back against her attack.

Meliodas literally states the Indura's were struggling against her for the majority of the engagement until they advanced their demonic transformation - what does that tell you in relation to the Archangel's performance, who didn't even make Indura flinch?

1v2 would still lead to them being at a disadvantage, and not be able to perform as well as they did. They're clearly above Derriere & Monspiet.




At the end of the day, this is only speculation - nothing's truly confirmed in the manga. But based on the Indura fight (her only real fight of strength), she's clearly a high-tier Goddess. Even if she was 100k as a Goddess, she wouldn't have that power as she is currently a human - she's crippled.



Hendrickson purifying fodder-demons isn't suprising - he's fodder himself. I can't remember the whole purging Fraudrin ideal (and can't remember the chapter to read) so I won't comment on that yet.

Obviously, you don't need the exact same PL but there needs to be a close range somewhere. Merlin's magic isn't a ''powerhouse'' - it's just exceptionally powerful in what it does - making things eternal.

She probably does have a special trait to her magic, but at the moment the confirmed events of this manga have her outperforming the Archangels (without hinting at a special magic yet) against the same opponent.

She still needs considerably power to affect the Indura's the way she did, even if it was purification - if it didn't have any force (meaning power) behind it then it would've failed in the say way Ludoshel's magic did.



Fair enough.



20k? That literally means Elaine is stronger than her, are you serious?

The funny thing is, the Archangels had the Graces, portions of power from the Supreme Deity yet Elizabeth still outperformed them against the very same opponent when it game to magical prowess. Why would it be weird? She's the Daughter of the one who made the Graces, outperforming them would be simple. It's like saying Meliodas outperforming a commandment user is weird because it's power from the DK - his father.

Ludoshel had the same opportunity as she did - Indura standing still for him and the same for Elizabeth - with the addition of them being most likely blinded by the light she illuminated at the start of her attack.

Where did Meliodas say that attacking the darkness inside them was more effective than attacking their physical bodies? Bring me the chapter or quote, this isn't indicated anywhere as far as I know.

Ludoshel lacked the strength and raw power to affect Indura, hence why his magic attack did nothing. Elizabeth's magic attack instead had an affect on them and was significantly working until the end of the fight - where they powered up.

Using purification doesn't mean Elizabeth suddenly jumps 50k or whatever gap of power in order to affect Indura - if that was the case then Hendrickson or Zaratras could purify more than fodder-demons without a special circumstance (e.g sacrificing life force).

Fair enough she's not 100k, but 20k is ridiculous - as a minimum she is Archangel class - and that's degrading the context she has around her.

Elizabeth is most likely similiar to Gloxinia/King in PL, lacks physical strength, but has exceptional magical power. E.g if Ludoshel and Elizabeth had 100k each (just example, not saying they do) then it would maybe go like this:

Ludoshel: Strength: 30,000 Magic: 60,000, Spirit: 10,000.
Elizabeth: Strength: 10,000 Magic: 80,000/90,000 Spirit: 20,000/10,000

1. Yes, because unlike Elizabeth Eliane was actually confirmed to have spent 700 defending something. Elizabeth has no confirmation of doing any such thing.

2. Once again you cannot compare purifying to doing physical damage. The manga has shown that attacks scale differently depending on type. Celestial arrow is an example and the fact that elizabeths attack was able to go straight for the darkness without having to even pierce through indura defenses.

2.5 Another example: Gowther's 3,000 self was still able to subdue Escanor's 28,000 self with a magic attack because it targeted his spirit stat and not his defenses. It literally required less power to be effective. Had he tried using physical damage Escanor would not have been effected.

3. No he didn't. He was continually attacked. They only stopped moving once Elizabeth jumped in between them. How can you argue that Elizabeth had the same fight when she was never attacked?

4. It's drawn out. Attacking the darkness didn't require that their defenses be pierced. Look at the last page after their purified, not a single ounce of damage was present on them.

5. Elizabeth is nowhere near 10,000 in strength. Are you trying to tell me that she's physically stronger than Matrona?

5.5 Ludoshel and the rest of the AA are afraid of Mel when he's 60K at his base. How is Ludoshel supposed to be anywhere near that?

 

[sobreno]

Sure Mael is stronger for the larger proportion of the day, but so is Ludoshel at other times - since sunshine weakens.

Indura) So, you're telling me that a very rare and exclusive power to the highest tiered of individuals in the Demon Clan, that requires the selection of the Demon King himself, along with the requirement of 50k+, sacrifice of 6 hearts, your consciousness and all the while forfeiting your life - warrants 10-20k of PL only? Ridiculous. If Ludoshel was only 10k above Monspiet + Derriere then they wouldn't have immediately made such a considerable decision, and if Indura was only 10-20k above him then he wouldn't have struggled as he did.

''It is obvious'' - not really. Once again, manga events clearly depict that she did better against an opponent that the Archangels were helpless too - why are you denying this? She did better, there is no denying this - stop. If her magic was weaker than Ludoshel's, then her spell would've immediately failed and not make the Indura's struggle - they would've immediately resisted her spell with ease and not require to advance their demonic transformation to fight back against her attack.

Meliodas literally states the Indura's were struggling against her for the majority of the engagement until they advanced their demonic transformation - what does that tell you in relation to the Archangel's performance, who didn't even make Indura flinch?

1v2 would still lead to them being at a disadvantage, and not be able to perform as well as they did. They're clearly above Derriere & Monspiet.




At the end of the day, this is only speculation - nothing's truly confirmed in the manga. But based on the Indura fight (her only real fight of strength), she's clearly a high-tier Goddess. Even if she was 100k as a Goddess, she wouldn't have that power as she is currently a human - she's crippled.



Hendrickson purifying fodder-demons isn't suprising - he's fodder himself. I can't remember the whole purging Fraudrin ideal (and can't remember the chapter to read) so I won't comment on that yet.

Obviously, you don't need the exact same PL but there needs to be a close range somewhere. Merlin's magic isn't a ''powerhouse'' - it's just exceptionally powerful in what it does - making things eternal.

She probably does have a special trait to her magic, but at the moment the confirmed events of this manga have her outperforming the Archangels (without hinting at a special magic yet) against the same opponent.

She still needs considerably power to affect the Indura's the way she did, even if it was purification - if it didn't have any force (meaning power) behind it then it would've failed in the say way Ludoshel's magic did.



Fair enough.



20k? That literally means Elaine is stronger than her, are you serious?

The funny thing is, the Archangels had the Graces, portions of power from the Supreme Deity yet Elizabeth still outperformed them against the very same opponent when it game to magical prowess. Why would it be weird? She's the Daughter of the one who made the Graces, outperforming them would be simple. It's like saying Meliodas outperforming a commandment user is weird because it's power from the DK - his father.

Ludoshel had the same opportunity as she did - Indura standing still for him and the same for Elizabeth - with the addition of them being most likely blinded by the light she illuminated at the start of her attack.

Where did Meliodas say that attacking the darkness inside them was more effective than attacking their physical bodies? Bring me the chapter or quote, this isn't indicated anywhere as far as I know.

Ludoshel lacked the strength and raw power to affect Indura, hence why his magic attack did nothing. Elizabeth's magic attack instead had an affect on them and was significantly working until the end of the fight - where they powered up.

Using purification doesn't mean Elizabeth suddenly jumps 50k or whatever gap of power in order to affect Indura - if that was the case then Hendrickson or Zaratras could purify more than fodder-demons without a special circumstance (e.g sacrificing life force).

Fair enough she's not 100k, but 20k is ridiculous - as a minimum she is Archangel class - and that's degrading the context she has around her.

Elizabeth is most likely similiar to Gloxinia/King in PL, lacks physical strength, but has exceptional magical power. E.g if Ludoshel and Elizabeth had 100k each (just example, not saying they do) then it would maybe go like this:

Ludoshel: Strength: 30,000 Magic: 60,000, Spirit: 10,000.
Elizabeth: Strength: 10,000 Magic: 80,000/90,000 Spirit: 20,000/10,000

I was refering to Mael at his peak, even 11 AM is enough.

Nope, not ridiculous, it is the case, never in this manga, we get a ridiculous jump in power levels, Meliodas got trashed by Galand with 15K of difference, and he trashed him back with a little gap of difference. Little gap is enough to trash your opponent, that is showed several times in this manga already.

It is you who should stop to overestimate Elizabeth, as the others told you, she has zero hype in his character strength, the Archangels are the elites of the Supreme Deity, not her. DK placed Meliodas, his son, in his elites warriors because he proved his strength via training with the highest ranked of all Demons. She is just a pincess lmao.
Purification is hax against the Demon's darkness who lost control and are mindless, it is showed with Hendy and Zaratras, despite their weak PLs.

What Meliodas is irrelevant, what it is relevant is that nowhere it is stated that she was above the Archangels, nowhere. Stop dreaming.
Tarmiel didn't go: " No way, even Lady Elizabeth, who surclass us, the 4 Archangels is getting pressured ".

Nope, they are on part, Sariel and Tarmiel are on part with Derrierie and Monspiet.

 

[OtakuFreak]

1. Yes, because unlike Elizabeth Eliane was actually confirmed to have spent 700 defending something. Elizabeth has no confirmation of doing any such thing.

2. Once again you cannot compare purifying to doing physical damage. The manga has shown that attacks scale differently depending on type. Celestial arrow is an example and the fact that elizabeths attack was able to go straight for the darkness without having to even pierce through indura defenses.

2.5 Another example: Gowther's 3,000 self was still able to subdue Escanor's 28,000 self with a magic attack because it targeted his spirit stat and not his defenses. It literally required less power to be effective. Had he tried using physical damage Escanor would not have been effected.

3. No he didn't. He was continually attacked. They only stopped moving once Elizabeth jumped in between them. How can you argue that Elizabeth had the same fight when she was never attacked?

4. It's drawn out. Attacking the darkness didn't require that their defenses be pierced. Look at the last page after their purified, not a single ounce of damage was present on them.

5. Elizabeth is nowhere near 10,000 in strength. Are you trying to tell me that she's physically stronger than Matrona?

1) 700 years of defending a pool of water from regular bandits who were of no consequence or threat to her, just to the forest and to the fountain (by taking it). Once a Red Demon appeared, she instantly lost and died - showing she probably didn't get any ''power increase'' from defending the pool - especially when the FKF has a barrier around it that stops intruders + finding the fountain is difficult.

2) It still came from her magic power, regardless of the technique or goal of the attack. Ludoshel's attack failed because he lacked the magic power.

2.5) Gowther is a special case here + what is this chapter so i can re-read it.

3) There was a moment where Derriere allowed Ludoshel's attack to hit her, without any resistance and it failed. Elizabeth had the same situation, her attack landed against them with no resistance, but it did better.

4) But to still attack the darkness, you would need considerable power. That's my entire argument here, it doesn't matter if it's purification or offensive ability, if you lack the power it will fail. Hence why Elizabeth made them struggle until they powered up (seen by increase of darkness) and then she needed a power boost from the Archangels in order to fully purify them. Ludoshel recognised that with Elizabeth's input, their combined power would be strong enough to defeat Indura, when individually they both lacked the magic power.

5) Matrona? You mean that 7k fodder Giant? You do realise Goddesses have the strongest regenerative abilities in this series, + Elizabeth isn't some delicate flower that will wither if you even look at her. Be realistic, 10k is low and wouldn't get her far if she was against Indura in just a physical fight, without magic power.

 

[sobreno]

Ludoshel didn't go all out and he didn't try to purify them. He can do it since he showed using " revigorate", a purifying spell on himself.

Elizabeth used " revigorate " to purify Mera's miasma. As I said, it is the right tool against this kind of thing, not the right tool to harm and kill, which was Ludoshel's goal.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

1) 700 years of defending a pool of water from regular bandits who were of no consequence or threat to her, just to the forest and to the fountain (by taking it). Once a Red Demon appeared, she instantly lost and died - showing she probably didn't get any ''power increase'' from defending the pool - especially when the FKF has a barrier around it that stops intruders + finding the fountain is difficult.

2) It still came from her magic power, regardless of the technique or goal of the attack. Ludoshel's attack failed because he lacked the magic power.

2.5) Gowther is a special case here + what is this chapter so i can re-read it.

3) There was a moment where Derriere allowed Ludoshel's attack to hit her, without any resistance and it failed. Elizabeth had the same situation, her attack landed against them with no resistance, but it did better.

4) But to still attack the darkness, you would need considerable power. That's my entire argument here, it doesn't matter if it's purification or offensive ability, if you lack the power it will fail. Hence why Elizabeth made them struggle until they powered up (seen by increase of darkness) and then she needed a power boost from the Archangels in order to fully purify them. Ludoshel recognised that with Elizabeth's input, their combined power would be strong enough to defeat Indura, when individually they both lacked the magic power.

5) Matrona? You mean that 7k fodder Giant? You do realise Goddesses have the strongest regenerative abilities in this series, + Elizabeth isn't some delicate flower that will wither if you even look at her. Be realistic, 10k is low and wouldn't get her far if she was against Indura in just a physical fight, without magic power.

1. Wasn't it noted that entire armies would come and try to steal the fountain of youth though along with a tribe of savages. And keep in mind that she only had the power level of a holy knight. She certainly was given training for years, unlike Elizabeth who preferred peace.

2. It failed because he used a different attack that was less effective in that situation. There's clearly an advantage that using it over ark hard. Unless

2.5 Chapter 170. If certain attacks don't have a situational advantage then I'd like to see how you could explain Gowther's 3,100 self creating an attack that can subdue a person with a power level of 28,000.

3. And there was also a time when Ludoshel started talking and the indura attacked him immediately. But for some reason Elizabeth didn't get attacked after she was inches away. She should've been dead before she could launch her attack.

4. It requires less power though. The problem is Elizabeth probably needed less effort to get to the darkness while Ludoshel needed more to break their bodies. You're acting like the efforts are equal when certain attacks are clearly specialized to do better in certain situations.

5. Matrona isn't fodder lol Especially since she knows Drole's dance is her base is only 1k away from Diane's base. 10K is far from low for strength. Monspeet is able to physically compete with the 4AA with 16K in strength. Elizabeth however got KO'ed with one punch while off her guard. Sairel got stabbed through the eye while off his guard and continued to fight.

 

[sobreno]

Anyway, if Ludoshel tried to purify them, he will be killed by the Supreme Deity as an act of treason against her and her rule. it is forbidden in the Goddess Clan to use purification on a Demon, their natural enemy. He said himself, that " he/she " will never forgive her.

He is an Archangel, one of the strongest warriors of the Goddess Clan and has a grace of the Supreme Deity herself. He is her elite and share her view on the Demons, that they must be destroyed. The Archangels, as well as himself, were disgusted at Elizabeth, trying to purify them.

They didn't go: " Oh, she can do that? Amazing, why I didn't think about that? As expected of Lady Elizabeth ".

 

[OtakuFreak]

I was refering to Mael at his peak, even 11 AM is enough.

Nope, not ridiculous, it is the case, never in this manga, we get a ridiculous jump in power levels, Meliodas got trashed by Galand with 15K of difference, and he trashed him back with a little gap of difference. Little gap is enough to trash your opponent, that is showed several times in this manga already.

It is you who should stop to overestimate Elizabeth, as the others told you, she has zero hype in his character strength, the Archangels are the elites of the Supreme Deity, not her. DK placed Meliodas, his son, in his elites warriors because he proved his strength via training with the highest ranked of all Demons. She is just a pincess lmao.
Purification is hax against the Demon's darkness who lost control and are mindless, it is showed with Hendy and Zaratras, despite their weak PLs.

What Meliodas is irrelevant, what it is relevant is that nowhere it is stated that she was above the Archangels, nowhere. Stop dreaming.
Tarmiel didn't go: " No way, even Lady Elizabeth, who surclass us, the 4 Archangels is getting pressured ".

Nope, they are on part, Sariel and Tarmiel are on part with Derrierie and Monspiet.

You're ignoring the factual evidence that is in the manga - that she outperformed the Archangels with her magical power. Arguing against fact with speculation is a weak argument (e.g the whole purification ideal).

Ludoshel didn't go all out and he didn't try to purify them. He can do it since he showed using " revigorate", a purifying spell on himself.

Elizabeth used " revigorate " to purify Mera's miasma. As I said, it is the right tool against this kind of thing, not the right tool to harm and kill, which was Ludoshel's goal.

Healing is different to Damage I imagine. And Elizabeth with memories might have a new PL, idk -best to leave it.

1. Wasn't it noted that entire armies would come and try to steal the fountain of youth though along with a tribe of savages. And keep in mind that she only had the power level of a holy knight. She certainly was given training for years, unlike Elizabeth who preferred peace.

2. It failed because he used a different attack that was less effective in that situation. There's clearly an advantage that using it over ark hard. Unless

2.5 Chapter 170. If certain attacks don't have a situational advantage then I'd like to see how you could explain Gowther's 3,100 self creating an attack that can subdue a person with a power level of 28,000.

3. And there was also a time when Ludoshel started talking and the indura attacked him immediately. But for some reason Elizabeth didn't get attacked after she was inches away. She should've been dead before she could launch her attack.

4. It requires less power though. The problem is Elizabeth probably needed less effort to get to the darkness while Ludoshel needed more to break their bodies. You're acting like the efforts are equal when certain attacks are clearly specialized to do better in certain situations.

5. Matrona isn't fodder lol Especially since she knows Drole's dance is her base is only 1k away from Diane's base. 10K is far from low for strength. Monspeet is able to physically compete with the 4AA with 16K in strength. Elizabeth however got KO'ed with one punch while off her guard. Sairel got stabbed through the eye while off his guard and continued to fight.

1) Entire armies could mean once a century or decade. It's not like she was alone defending it anyway, the other fairies probably helped her as well (e.g Gerheade).

2) Then why did Ludoshel not immediately resort to purification instead of continuously attacking with more offensive abilities?

3) You're suggesting one hit would've killed Elizabeth? Hardly.

4) Once again, Ludoshel could've easily used purification, but he didn't. He recognised he was out of his depth.

5) A punch that left a small bruise on her lip and a brief moment unconscious.

Anyway, if Ludoshel tried to purify them, he will be killed by the Supreme Deity as an act of treason against her and her rule. it is forbidden in the Goddess Clan to use purification on a Demon, their natural enemy. He said himself, that " he/she " will never forgive her.

He is an Archangel, one of the strongest warriors of the Goddess Clan and has a grace of the Supreme Deity herself. He is her elite and share her view on the Demons, that they must be destroyed. The Archangels, as well as himself, were disgusted at Elizabeth, trying to purify them.

They didn't go: " Oh, she can do that? Amazing, why I didn't think about that? As expected of Lady Elizabeth ".

No, Elizabeth was punished and cursed for her actions because she saved the commandments, rather than purify and kill them. Along with her relationship with Meliodas = SD not happy.

If Ludoshel was strong enough to individually purify and then kill them while unconscious, the SD could care less - it's the fact that Elizabeth allowed them to live, and most likely return to the battle field later on and impact the war, naturally affecting the Goddesses chances of victory against the Demons.

 

[intoxicating poison]

Since meliodas was told by zeldris that training would eventually get him to the same level of power as the demon king, that tells us the demon king has a cap to his power and it isn’t literally immeasurable but just very monumental for any other demon to compete with him, but with training his strongest son could eventually reach the same level of power so it is possible he has a PL of 400-800k possible.

 

[sobreno]

You're ignoring the factual evidence that is in the manga - that she outperformed the Archangels with her magical power. Arguing against fact with speculation is a weak argument (e.g the whole purification ideal).




Healing is different to Damage I imagine. And Elizabeth with memories might have a new PL, idk -best to leave it.






1) Entire armies could mean once a century or decade. It's not like she was alone defending it anyway, the other fairies probably helped her as well (e.g Gerheade).

2) Then why did Ludoshel not immediately resort to purification instead of continuously attacking with more offensive abilities?

3) You're suggesting one hit would've killed Elizabeth? Hardly.

4) Once again, Ludoshel could've easily used purification, but he didn't. He recognised he was out of his depth.

5) A punch that left a small bruise on her lip and a brief moment unconscious.




No, Elizabeth was punished and cursed for her actions because she saved the commandments, rather than purify and kill them. Along with her relationship with Meliodas = SD not happy.

If Ludoshel was strong enough to individually purify and then kill them while unconscious, the SD could care less - it's the fact that Elizabeth allowed them to live, and most likely return to the battle field later on and impact the war, naturally affecting the Goddesses chances of victory against the Demons.

It is you who ignores the fact that she didn't outperform them, Tarmiel said the opposite.

She use purification, her arsenal is purification, her personality is toward that direction too. You are in denial.

She was already in relation with Meliodas, it is precisely what she did and Ludoshel stating that: " she is doomed now " which caused her demise.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 12, 2018 ---

Since meliodas was told by zeldris that training would eventually get him to the same level of power as the demon king, that tells us the demon king has a cap to his power and it isn’t literally immeasurable but just very monumental for any other demon to compete with him, but with training his strongest son could eventually reach the same level of power so it is possible he has a PL of 400-800k possible.

That is because Meliodas is special, even Zeldoris realized that when he remembered the words of his Father when Meliodas was crushing him with his Darkness.
The DK himself is obsessed with him. Meliodas is definitely special.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

You're ignoring the factual evidence that is in the manga - that she outperformed the Archangels with her magical power. Arguing against fact with speculation is a weak argument (e.g the whole purification ideal).




Healing is different to Damage I imagine. And Elizabeth with memories might have a new PL, idk -best to leave it.






1) Entire armies could mean once a century or decade. It's not like she was alone defending it anyway, the other fairies probably helped her as well (e.g Gerheade).

2) Then why did Ludoshel not immediately resort to purification instead of continuously attacking with more offensive abilities?

3) You're suggesting one hit would've killed Elizabeth? Hardly.

4) Once again, Ludoshel could've easily used purification, but he didn't. He recognised he was out of his depth.

5) A punch that left a small bruise on her lip and a brief moment unconscious.




No, Elizabeth was punished and cursed for her actions because she saved the commandments, rather than purify and kill them. Along with her relationship with Meliodas = SD not happy.

If Ludoshel was strong enough to individually purify and then kill them while unconscious, the SD could care less - it's the fact that Elizabeth allowed them to live, and most likely return to the battle field later on and impact the war, naturally affecting the Goddesses chances of victory against the Demons.

1. She seemed to express that she was in absolute solitude till Ban showed up. That was pretty much the whole theme of her arc.

1.5 it's not speculation that certain attacks are easier to take advantage of in certain sitatuions. Thats exactly why the celestial arrow did more damage on chandler's spirit and not his body in spite of the fact that both aspects had the same power. One clearly required less effort to be successful. It's also the way how Gowther was able to subdue Escanor in spite of the fact that Escanor was about 25,000 points stronger than Gowther. If Gowher tried attacking his body nothing would happen, but luckily his magic attacks spirit stats, which don't require you to go through the defenses. The only way to defend against Gowther's magic is to have a strong spirit or to dodge it. Likewise for the Indura there's probably something else that can be exploited in order to attack the darkness. Same way that Gowther attacks the spirit and ignores the effort required to pierce the defenses.

2. Because the idea of purifying a demon is repulsive to the goddess clan. Even when Elizabeth started doing it and when he realized it was their best bet for victory (he said it would help if they all combined their powers) he still tried to stop her once he found out what she was doing. Even when Ludoshel realized he could've helped he still tried to kill them, which would've been a lot harder. Technically speaking Ludoshel hates the Goddess clan so much that he'd willing go against the direct orders of a princess. That's technically treason in a sense because Elizabeth was still technically with the goddess clan at the time.

2.5 The SD was ticked because Elizabeth left them alive afterwards. Had Ludoshel purified them (which he wouldn't because of his own vendetta) he would've killed them and The SD would've been fine. It's not purifying that got her super mad, it's leaving them alive that did.

3. Not kill, but it was still enough to incapacitate her for the majority of the fight

4. Like I said none of the AA wanted to combine their powers and use purifications. Elizabeth had to give a speech and it wasn't just Ludoshel who was against they idea. They don't like leaving demons alive. They even let their stigma forces wipe out a village for healing a demon.

5. Other attacks that are a lot stronger have done less to people that supposedly have lower power levels lower than Elizabeth according to you

 

[Kay3795]

Supreme Deity/Demon King - around 1000k (it'd be like Hao Asakura of Shaman King Furyoku lvl by being unreadable on the PL scouter)

Indura (Monspiet + Derriere) - probably 100++k (depends on how far gone an Indura is)

2 pairs of real Wings Elizabeth - 100+k (unknown full power, potential God status)

Ludoshel - 80+k normal (unknown full power)

Sariel + Tarmiel - 65k+ normal (unknown full power)

Mael - whatever Escanor is at during similar times of the day + Archangel tier PL

Chandler - 100+ (full Dragon Mode....power was conveniently cut "more than half"; Indura unknown)

Cusack - similar to Dragon Chandler with his unrevealed true form (Indura unknown).

Zeldoris with DK magic + phase 2 demon mark - 100+k (Indura unknown)

Estarossa + phase 2 mark - around 100k (Indura unknown).

Current Meliodas - 142+k (power kept on increasing since the Escanor fight, unknown full power, Indura unknown, potential God status).

Finally, you could probably add something like a 1.25 multiplier to every Demon at night time (a vampire said something about the night doubling their power but I don't think that 2x is meant to be taken at face value; certainly won't be fair). For example, the Meliodas that fought ex Fairy King & Giant wasn't 56k but 70k, & the 10C Estarossa that stopped Mel wasn't 60k but 75K because Demons get a PL boost at night.

note: POWER LEVEL FLUTUATES for EVERBODY, even a human, depending on what stance they take. When Ban was more focused (1st Arc), his PL immediately increased slightly. The more serious Meliodas got (first arc), the better he fought. He went from struggling with Guila to fighting Hendrickson, Gil & Vivian at the same time, & then fighting Grey Hendrickson. Same thing with Diane (1st arc) getting serious with mothercatastrophe. Same thing with vampire King when he decided to go full power against Escanor to reveal a PL of nearly 5000

 

[kkck]

What I am thinking about escanor and mael....

Mael is a goddess that was deemed powerful enough to receive a portion of the supreme goddess' power. So basically an archangel + sunshine.

Escanor is a human being who had the grace since a very young age for some reason. I don't think it was necessarily a coincidence that escanor got the grace though, there is that woman who mysteriously appeared in his flashback. She chose escanor to bear the grace. We also know that a human shouldn't be able to bear the power at all, going by what ludociel said this should kill any human. So if we have the possibility of someone choosing escanor... The most likely scenario is that escanor was chosen specifically because he could bear the grace. In context the probable reason for that would be that escanor was born with a magic that allowed him to survive and even wield sunshine.

In regards to escanor, I think mael will be stronger than him at all times except noon. Mael at other times would have his own strength plus sunshine. However once the one kicks in due to whatever special property escanor has that allows him to survive this he will be able to surpass noon mael. I wonder if perhaps healing is escanor's innate magic that allows him to survive sunshine. Sunshine hurts him but his magic keeps him alive. There is no obvious connection between escanor's healing and sunshine either.

 

[OtakuFreak]

1. She seemed to express that she was in absolute solitude till Ban showed up. That was pretty much the whole theme of her arc.

1.5 it's not speculation that certain attacks are easier to take advantage of in certain sitatuions. Thats exactly why the celestial arrow did more damage on chandler's spirit and not his body in spite of the fact that both aspects had the same power. One clearly required less effort to be successful. It's also the way how Gowther was able to subdue Escanor in spite of the fact that Escanor was about 25,000 points stronger than Gowther. If Gowher tried attacking his body nothing would happen, but luckily his magic attacks spirit stats, which don't require you to go through the defenses. The only way to defend against Gowther's magic is to have a strong spirit or to dodge it. Likewise for the Indura there's probably something else that can be exploited in order to attack the darkness. Same way that Gowther attacks the spirit and ignores the effort required to pierce the defenses.

2. Because the idea of purifying a demon is repulsive to the goddess clan. Even when Elizabeth started doing it and when he realized it was their best bet for victory (he said it would help if they all combined their powers) he still tried to stop her once he found out what she was doing. Even when Ludoshel realized he could've helped he still tried to kill them, which would've been a lot harder. Technically speaking Ludoshel hates the Goddess clan so much that he'd willing go against the direct orders of a princess. That's technically treason in a sense because Elizabeth was still technically with the goddess clan at the time.

2.5 The SD was ticked because Elizabeth left them alive afterwards. Had Ludoshel purified them (which he wouldn't because of his own vendetta) he would've killed them and The SD would've been fine. It's not purifying that got her super mad, it's leaving them alive that did.

3. Not kill, but it was still enough to incapacitate her for the majority of the fight

4. Like I said none of the AA wanted to combine their powers and use purifications. Elizabeth had to give a speech and it wasn't just Ludoshel who was against they idea. They don't like leaving demons alive. They even let their stigma forces wipe out a village for healing a demon.

5. Other attacks that are a lot stronger have done less to people that supposedly have lower power levels lower than Elizabeth according to you

1) Fair enough.

1.5) I see what you're getting at, but what I mean by speculation is the fact that not any character in the series has made a statement that ''purification > Offensive ability'' against demons, or even the Indura. If the Archangels were truly above Goddess Elizabeth in terms of power, they would've commented that she was only doing as well as she did because she was using purification, but they didn't.

2) Yes, purification is probably something the Goddess Clan is against, since it leaves their enemies alive - rather than dead. But, even if you purified the enemy, they would be left unconscious and easy pickings to kill - as Ludoshel tried to do after the purification was successful. I don't think Ludoshel would've chose death over the decision of using purification if he had to, if Elizabeth didn't step in. Ludoshel also recognised that he was out of his depth against the Indura individually, hence his impatience of requesting the other Archangels to immediately help him. Once Elizabeth appeared he was confident enough that the combination of their powers could take out both Indura's, which is funny because his attitude was extremely worried before her appearance - he was more confident with HER at his side rather than two of the other Archangels - suggesting that she is certainly powerful.

I'm not surprised Ludoshel disobeyed Elizabeth, his hatred for the Demon Clan probably outweighs the respect and loyalty he has to his superiors (hierarchy wise). He probably would even disobey the Supreme Deity if it mean't he could kill a powerful Demon.

2.5 True - that proves my point even more that Ludoshel didn't want to use purification because he recognised that he was out of his depth. The Supreme Deity could care less what method him or Elizabeth would use, as long as the end goal was successful elimination or at least significant damage to the enemy.

4) The AA's wanted to combine their powers offensively and attack the Indura (hence Ludoshel's proposal to finish off Indura whilst they were fighting off Elizabeth's attack + his early request before Elizabeth's intervention), they all recognised that they individually were inferior to Indura. Once again, purification doesn't matter as long as the end goal is successful elimination, which didn't happen because of Elizabeth.

New note (for @sobreno as well) - Saying Goddess Elizabeth is at 20k (which was initially suggested before) or is extremely weak as a Goddess makes no sense. Nakaba has clearly and factually stated himself that a Goddesses power and strength is expressed by the frequency (how many), length, and size of the wings that they possess. Goddess Elizabeth clearly has two pairs of wings which are clearly longer and larger than Sariel & Tarmiel's, and arguably larger/longer than Ludoshel's (hard to tell sometimes for several reasons) in the correctly detailed pages. Even if you disagree, this depiction of her wings makes her at a MINIMUM Archangel class - still making her one of the strongest Goddesses and characters in the series, even if she isn't 100k as you all disagree.

To even validate this point even further, 2 pairs of wings as a Goddess = Four Archangels class since Ludoshel, Sariel and Mael had 2 pairs of wings and so does Goddess Elizabeth. (Tarmiel has smaller wings, but 3 pairs of them to compensate)

There are other various reasons why suggesting Elizabeth is weaker than the Archangels makes no sense, but I'll be here all day listing them.

It is you who ignores the fact that she didn't outperform them, Tarmiel said the opposite.

She use purification, her arsenal is purification, her personality is toward that direction too. You are in denial.

She was already in relation with Meliodas, it is precisely what she did and Ludoshel stating that: " she is doomed now " which caused her demise.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 12, 2018 ---

That is because Meliodas is special, even Zeldoris realized that when he remembered the words of his Father when Meliodas was crushing him with his Darkness.
The DK himself is obsessed with him. Meliodas is definitely special.

If you actually google the definition of ''outperform'' and then use that definition in the context of the Four Archangels vs Indura, and then Elizabeth vs Indura - it should be obvious who performed better.

Yes, her arsenal is at the moment mostly purification because that is what fits her peaceful personality most. She is still a Goddess, and has access to ''ark'' and therefore could easily use all of the offensive abilities that the Archangels used, but she doesn't because she dislikes violence. They are hypothetically in her arsenal, she just doesn't use them because it's against her ideals.

If Elizabeth allows Derriere & Monspiet to die by Ludoshel's hand after she successfully purified them, then I don't think the SD would be as pissed off with her as she was when she allowed them to live - sure she probably would've maybe still cursed her because of her relationship with Meliodas - but the action of allowing the enemy to survive is what sealed her fate.

 

[sobreno]

1) Fair enough.

1.5) I see what you're getting at, but what I mean by speculation is the fact that not any character in the series has made a statement that ''purification > Offensive ability'' against demons, or even the Indura. If the Archangels were truly above Goddess Elizabeth in terms of power, they would've commented that she was only doing as well as she did because she was using purification, but they didn't.

2) Yes, purification is probably something the Goddess Clan is against, since it leaves their enemies alive - rather than dead. But, even if you purified the enemy, they would be left unconscious and easy pickings to kill - as Ludoshel tried to do after the purification was successful. I don't think Ludoshel would've chose death over the decision of using purification if he had to, if Elizabeth didn't step in. Ludoshel also recognised that he was out of his depth against the Indura individually, hence his impatience of requesting the other Archangels to immediately help him. Once Elizabeth appeared he was confident enough that the combination of their powers could take out both Indura's, which is funny because his attitude was extremely worried before her appearance - he was more confident with HER at his side rather than two of the other Archangels - suggesting that she is certainly powerful.

I'm not surprised Ludoshel disobeyed Elizabeth, his hatred for the Demon Clan probably outweighs the respect and loyalty he has to his superiors (hierarchy wise). He probably would even disobey the Supreme Deity if it mean't he could kill a powerful Demon.

2.5 True - that proves my point even more that Ludoshel didn't want to use purification because he recognised that he was out of his depth. The Supreme Deity could care less what method him or Elizabeth would use, as long as the end goal was successful elimination or at least significant damage to the enemy.

4) The AA's wanted to combine their powers offensively and attack the Indura (hence Ludoshel's proposal to finish off Indura whilst they were fighting off Elizabeth's attack + his early request before Elizabeth's intervention), they all recognised that they individually were inferior to Indura. Once again, purification doesn't matter as long as the end goal is successful elimination, which didn't happen because of Elizabeth.

New note (for @sobreno as well) - Saying Goddess Elizabeth is at 20k (which was initially suggested before) or is extremely weak as a Goddess makes no sense. Nakaba has clearly and factually stated himself that a Goddesses power and strength is expressed by the frequency (how many), length, and size of the wings that they possess. Goddess Elizabeth clearly has two pairs of wings which are clearly longer and larger than Sariel & Tarmiel's, and arguably larger/longer than Ludoshel's (hard to tell sometimes for several reasons) in the correctly detailed pages. Even if you disagree, this depiction of her wings makes her at a MINIMUM Archangel class - still making her one of the strongest Goddesses and characters in the series, even if she isn't 100k as you all disagree.

To even validate this point even further, 2 pairs of wings as a Goddess = Four Archangels class since Ludoshel, Sariel and Mael had 2 pairs of wings and so does Goddess Elizabeth. (Tarmiel has smaller wings, but 3 pairs of them to compensate)

There are other various reasons why suggesting Elizabeth is weaker than the Archangels makes no sense, but I'll be here all day listing them.



If you actually google the definition of ''outperform'' and then use that definition in the context of the Four Archangels vs Indura, and then Elizabeth vs Indura - it should be obvious who performed better.

Yes, her arsenal is at the moment mostly purification because that is what fits her peaceful personality most. She is still a Goddess, and has access to ''ark'' and therefore could easily use all of the offensive abilities that the Archangels used, but she doesn't because she dislikes violence. They are hypothetically in her arsenal, she just doesn't use them because it's against her ideals.

If Elizabeth allows Derriere & Monspiet to die by Ludoshel's hand after she successfully purified them, then I don't think the SD would be as pissed off with her as she was when she allowed them to live - sure she probably would've maybe still cursed her because of her relationship with Meliodas - but the action of allowing the enemy to survive is what sealed her fate.

Of course that I disagree that she even close to 100K lmao. You are exaggerating. Not only her, same for Archangels, Demons brothers, and Indura ( Monspiet and Derrierie lol ).
Only Meliodas ( who has the strongest hype from his Father, the DK, and the " confirmed " potential to reach him via training ) and Escanor ( anomaly and Human which has one of the powers of the SD, power which increases his PL along with the Sun without him doing a single thing ).

Nope, she isn't Archangel level, the Archangels are the elite of the Goddess Clan, the Demons are extreme wary toward them, not Elizabeth, the princess.
Supreme Deity didn't give her her own power, didn't make her in the head of her strongest military squad. You are in denial and clearly making Elizabeth as some sort of Erza female character which is far from the image of the pacifist princess, with zero will to love fighting, improving her strength via training, etc. Why would she? She has no interest in those things, on the contrary, she despite it. Someone who despite the very essence of fighting and doesn't improve his own strength is weak ( in fighting sense ) by logic. That is elementary, it applies to our world logic too.

Again, I doubt that you will change as you are clearly an Elizabeth fanboy, and a weird one since most of Elizabeth fanboys know that she isn't a powerhouse and doesn't have that kind of portrayal. She is below 60K since zero Archangels beside Mael surpass that level, even the two warriors sons of the DK ( not only princes, they learned and had masters to polish their strength ), and two strongest after Meliodas, are just in the 60K lol.

Once again, she didn't outperform them, nice try, Tarmiel noted it already that she isn't a being any better than them, the 4 Archangels.

Her arsenal is only healing and purifying, that is a fact, and you want to know another fact? She will never change that kind of arsenal because that means changing her own ideal and personality. She chooses to be a princess, not a warrior, that is why she is weaker than the 4 Archangels, she doesn't give a damn about strength, power, fighting and power level.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

1) Fair enough.

1.5) I see what you're getting at, but what I mean by speculation is the fact that not any character in the series has made a statement that ''purification > Offensive ability'' against demons, or even the Indura. If the Archangels were truly above Goddess Elizabeth in terms of power, they would've commented that she was only doing as well as she did because she was using purification, but they didn't.

2) Yes, purification is probably something the Goddess Clan is against, since it leaves their enemies alive - rather than dead. But, even if you purified the enemy, they would be left unconscious and easy pickings to kill - as Ludoshel tried to do after the purification was successful. I don't think Ludoshel would've chose death over the decision of using purification if he had to, if Elizabeth didn't step in. Ludoshel also recognised that he was out of his depth against the Indura individually, hence his impatience of requesting the other Archangels to immediately help him. Once Elizabeth appeared he was confident enough that the combination of their powers could take out both Indura's, which is funny because his attitude was extremely worried before her appearance - he was more confident with HER at his side rather than two of the other Archangels - suggesting that she is certainly powerful.

I'm not surprised Ludoshel disobeyed Elizabeth, his hatred for the Demon Clan probably outweighs the respect and loyalty he has to his superiors (hierarchy wise). He probably would even disobey the Supreme Deity if it mean't he could kill a powerful Demon.

2.5 True - that proves my point even more that Ludoshel didn't want to use purification because he recognised that he was out of his depth. The Supreme Deity could care less what method him or Elizabeth would use, as long as the end goal was successful elimination or at least significant damage to the enemy.

4) The AA's wanted to combine their powers offensively and attack the Indura (hence Ludoshel's proposal to finish off Indura whilst they were fighting off Elizabeth's attack + his early request before Elizabeth's intervention), they all recognised that they individually were inferior to Indura. Once again, purification doesn't matter as long as the end goal is successful elimination, which didn't happen because of Elizabeth.

New note (for @sobreno as well) - Saying Goddess Elizabeth is at 20k (which was initially suggested before) or is extremely weak as a Goddess makes no sense. Nakaba has clearly and factually stated himself that a Goddesses power and strength is expressed by the frequency (how many), length, and size of the wings that they possess. Goddess Elizabeth clearly has two pairs of wings which are clearly longer and larger than Sariel & Tarmiel's, and arguably larger/longer than Ludoshel's (hard to tell sometimes for several reasons) in the correctly detailed pages. Even if you disagree, this depiction of her wings makes her at a MINIMUM Archangel class - still making her one of the strongest Goddesses and characters in the series, even if she isn't 100k as you all disagree.

To even validate this point even further, 2 pairs of wings as a Goddess = Four Archangels class since Ludoshel, Sariel and Mael had 2 pairs of wings and so does Goddess Elizabeth. (Tarmiel has smaller wings, but 3 pairs of them to compensate)

There are other various reasons why suggesting Elizabeth is weaker than the Archangels makes no sense, but I'll be here all day listing them.



If you actually google the definition of ''outperform'' and then use that definition in the context of the Four Archangels vs Indura, and then Elizabeth vs Indura - it should be obvious who performed better.

Yes, her arsenal is at the moment mostly purification because that is what fits her peaceful personality most. She is still a Goddess, and has access to ''ark'' and therefore could easily use all of the offensive abilities that the Archangels used, but she doesn't because she dislikes violence. They are hypothetically in her arsenal, she just doesn't use them because it's against her ideals.

If Elizabeth allows Derriere & Monspiet to die by Ludoshel's hand after she successfully purified them, then I don't think the SD would be as pissed off with her as she was when she allowed them to live - sure she probably would've maybe still cursed her because of her relationship with Meliodas - but the action of allowing the enemy to survive is what sealed her fate.

1.5 but so far every purification technique has required less effort than should be required. Zaratras’ purge allowed him to close the gap between a 15,000 level fraudrin even after Zaratras himself noted that his regular magic wouldn’t work. Yet, after he put forth his effort into a purge it worked. Human Elizabeth was able to effortlessly subdue 30,000 Melascula with be well. Depending on the power level it can be easier or harder, but certainly it has an easier learning curve advantage.

2. The problem is that Ludoshel doesn’t think clearly. Even when the situation was obvious he’d still rather not purify the indura but would rather use brute force. He knew that using Elizabeth along with the other 3 would let them win, but once he found out it was purification he jumped right off the boat. The Goddess clans’ pride and hatred leads them to think illogically. Even Sariel and Tarmiel were on team Ludoshel till Elizabeth started talking. Ludoshel just doesn’t think clearly.

4. And like I said Ludoshel doesn’t think straight. His plan to deceive the demons could’ve gotten Elizabeth killed and that probably would’ve gotten him killed. Anything demon related and his mindset goes out the window. He probably knew purification was the means to his end, but he still didn’t like it. Not to mention had his plans worked, he’d be dead. If he had convinced the other two not to help Elizabeth Mel would’ve had to have dealt with the indura by himself, which he noted he couldn’t do so he probably would’ve retreated with Elizabeth, Ludoshel would’ve kept fighting and boom he’s dead.

Lastly I cannot see how individuals who were blessed by the Surpeme Deity can be second to Elizabeth who has no blessing or anything. The indura thing is the only feat that Elizabeth has that relatively compares her, but once again there’s the purification issue, the not being even remotely in danger issue, and the fact that so far every form of damage that we saw Elizabeth take pales in comparison to the AA. She was even put in an ark prison that required Mel to get her out of. Not to mention no one has ever taken note of her power level, but everyone else takes note of the 4AA

 

[OtakuFreak]

1.5 but so far every purification technique has required less effort than should be required. Zaratras’ purge allowed him to close the gap between a 15,000 level fraudrin even after Zaratras himself noted that his regular magic wouldn’t work. Yet, after he put forth his effort into a purge it worked. Human Elizabeth was able to effortlessly subdue 30,000 Melascula with be well. Depending on the power level it can be easier or harder, but certainly it has an easier learning curve advantage.

2. The problem is that Ludoshel doesn’t think clearly. Even when the situation was obvious he’d still rather not purify the indura but would rather use brute force. He knew that using Elizabeth along with the other 3 would let them win, but once he found out it was purification he jumped right off the boat. The Goddess clans’ pride and hatred leads them to think illogically. Even Sariel and Tarmiel were on team Ludoshel till Elizabeth started talking. Ludoshel just doesn’t think clearly.

4. And like I said Ludoshel doesn’t think straight. His plan to deceive the demons could’ve gotten Elizabeth killed and that probably would’ve gotten him killed. Anything demon related and his mindset goes out the window. He probably knew purification was the means to his end, but he still didn’t like it. Not to mention had his plans worked, he’d be dead. If he had convinced the other two not to help Elizabeth Mel would’ve had to have dealt with the indura by himself, which he noted he couldn’t do so he probably would’ve retreated with Elizabeth, Ludoshel would’ve kept fighting and boom he’s dead.

Lastly I cannot see how individuals who were blessed by the Surpeme Deity can be second to Elizabeth who has no blessing or anything. The indura thing is the only feat that Elizabeth has that relatively compares her, but once again there’s the purification issue, the not being even remotely in danger issue, and the fact that so far every form of damage that we saw Elizabeth take pales in comparison to the AA. She was even put in an ark prison that required Mel to get her out of. Not to mention no one has ever taken note of her power level, but everyone else takes note of the 4AA

1.5 If I recall correctly, Zaratras used his life force as a substitution of his magic power, correct? It was a special circumstance that allowed him to purify Fraudrin, and therefore overcome the gap in magical power between them. Other than this extraneous circumstance, his purge would've never worked against Fraudrin - the gap in power was too great. If you use this example in Elizabeth vs Indura - she didn't use any extraneous circumstance, she just used her own magical power and attempted to purify the Indura which was initially succesful as Meliodas commented that the Indura were desperately attempting to resist her, until they advanced their demonic transformation and as a result she needed the Archangels help as they started to slowly push her back. Zaratras purge had no affect on Fraudrin whatsoever without the use of his life force, showing that you need to be within a moderate close reach of PL to your intended target - Elizabeth had an affect on the Indura's and only started to struggle at the end, so if you use this knowledge = Elizabeth has to be close to Indura or even roughly equivalent to Phase 1 Indura, but obviously weaker than when they advanced their transformation because her attack started to fail. If she's close to Indura, then she is stronger than the Archangels because they were helpless to them in terms of magic power.

I'm honestly not sure about Human Elizabeth, I have a feeling her PL might have increased with the return of her memories, since she would have knowledge of her past lives (most importantly her Goddess life) but not enough to be equal to her Goddess self in terms of power (which would be indicated by the return of her wings I think). Then again, Merlin did comment that Melascula wasn't taking the situation seriously and that if she did use her full power, the battle would've turned out very differently - suggesting that maybe Elizabeth's magic only affected her because she wasn't using her full strength.

2) True.

4) True.

Then again, I think you're dismissing the fact too easily that Elizabeth is the only child and subsequent daughter of the Supreme Deity - the strongest character in the series (besides DK ofc). That's pretty massive in terms of feats and what it could mean. Meliodas, Zeldoris and Estarossa are children to the Demon King, and they are easily expressed as the strongest demons in their clans + potential strongest characters in the series (e.g top 10) - So why is it argued that Goddess Elizabeth isn't one of the strongest Goddesses and subsequent characters in the series? Then you take into consideration that she has 2 pairs of wings, which puts her at a minimum Archangel class + Her magic did better against Indura than Ludoshel (1st/2nd strongest Archangel depending on the time of the day). I still think in terms of overall PL, Goddess Elizabeth is superior to the Archangels, but if you broke down the stats into the 3 categories, the Archangels would easily win with their physical strength, but Elizabeth would easily win with her magical power. She's like Gloxinia/King I believe, she has insane magical power but lacks physical strength, but like them - can still take a few considerably hits before going down (e.g King got full countered yet kept swining vs Chandler), but would obviously be outgunned against stronger physical fighters and what they could achieve (e.g take more hits). In terms of spirit (is this even relevant anymore lol?).

To be fair, Elizabeth was unconscious inside the ark bubble she was sealed in, and only was awakened when Meliodas broke it - she might have been able to ''dismiss'' it if like I say, her magic power is considerably higher than the Archangels. Sure, no one has ever mentioned her as being ''Omg she's so op and strong wow'' but at the same time, if you consider the context of the series (and even the flashback arc), you can see that Nakaba has been very vague and secretive about any information regarding the Goddess Clan. I mean, for example:

The Supreme Deity was revealed in 224 in comparison to the Demon King, who was revealed much much earlier. - even if it was just a name and not his full appearance.

Four Archangels revealed later.

Monspiet + Ludoshel clearly referenced Elizabeth's position as being the daughter of the Supreme Deity but never directly mentioned it - it was very vague what they said. So if you take this into account, he might not have wanted any hints to her true power.

I think Nakaba is soon to reveal her true status among the clan (e.g power) since the Goddesses are making a return currently.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

1.5 If I recall correctly, Zaratras used his life force as a substitution of his magic power, correct? It was a special circumstance that allowed him to purify Fraudrin, and therefore overcome the gap in magical power between them. Other than this extraneous circumstance, his purge would've never worked against Fraudrin - the gap in power was too great. If you use this example in Elizabeth vs Indura - she didn't use any extraneous circumstance, she just used her own magical power and attempted to purify the Indura which was initially succesful as Meliodas commented that the Indura were desperately attempting to resist her, until they advanced their demonic transformation and as a result she needed the Archangels help as they started to slowly push her back. Zaratras purge had no affect on Fraudrin whatsoever without the use of his life force, showing that you need to be within a moderate close reach of PL to your intended target - Elizabeth had an affect on the Indura's and only started to struggle at the end, so if you use this knowledge = Elizabeth has to be close to Indura or even roughly equivalent to Phase 1 Indura, but obviously weaker than when they advanced their transformation because her attack started to fail. If she's close to Indura, then she is stronger than the Archangels because they were helpless to them in terms of magic power.

I'm honestly not sure about Human Elizabeth, I have a feeling her PL might have increased with the return of her memories, since she would have knowledge of her past lives (most importantly her Goddess life) but not enough to be equal to her Goddess self in terms of power (which would be indicated by the return of her wings I think). Then again, Merlin did comment that Melascula wasn't taking the situation seriously and that if she did use her full power, the battle would've turned out very differently - suggesting that maybe Elizabeth's magic only affected her because she wasn't using her full strength.

2) True.

4) True.

Then again, I think you're dismissing the fact too easily that Elizabeth is the only child and subsequent daughter of the Supreme Deity - the strongest character in the series (besides DK ofc). That's pretty massive in terms of feats and what it could mean. Meliodas, Zeldoris and Estarossa are children to the Demon King, and they are easily expressed as the strongest demons in their clans + potential strongest characters in the series (e.g top 10) - So why is it argued that Goddess Elizabeth isn't one of the strongest Goddesses and subsequent characters in the series? Then you take into consideration that she has 2 pairs of wings, which puts her at a minimum Archangel class + Her magic did better against Indura than Ludoshel (1st/2nd strongest Archangel depending on the time of the day). I still think in terms of overall PL, Goddess Elizabeth is superior to the Archangels, but if you broke down the stats into the 3 categories, the Archangels would easily win with their physical strength, but Elizabeth would easily win with her magical power. She's like Gloxinia/King I believe, she has insane magical power but lacks physical strength, but like them - can still take a few considerably hits before going down (e.g King got full countered yet kept swining vs Chandler), but would obviously be outgunned against stronger physical fighters and what they could achieve (e.g take more hits). In terms of spirit (is this even relevant anymore lol?).

To be fair, Elizabeth was unconscious inside the ark bubble she was sealed in, and only was awakened when Meliodas broke it - she might have been able to ''dismiss'' it if like I say, her magic power is considerably higher than the Archangels. Sure, no one has ever mentioned her as being ''Omg she's so op and strong wow'' but at the same time, if you consider the context of the series (and even the flashback arc), you can see that Nakaba has been very vague and secretive about any information regarding the Goddess Clan. I mean, for example:

The Supreme Deity was revealed in 224 in comparison to the Demon King, who was revealed much much earlier. - even if it was just a name and not his full appearance.

Four Archangels revealed later.

Monspiet + Ludoshel clearly referenced Elizabeth's position as being the daughter of the Supreme Deity but never directly mentioned it - it was very vague what they said. So if you take this into account, he might not have wanted any hints to her true power.

I think Nakaba is soon to reveal her true status among the clan (e.g power) since the Goddesses are making a return currently.

1.5 But that's not the point. Yes it took some effort, but compared to his other attacks only purge would have seemed to worked according to Zaratras. If he put his life force into a regular attack it would not have damaged Fraudrin to that degree, but purge did. Zaratras knew that his regular magic would not work under any circumstances. That's why Fraudrin wasn't worried.

The same situation happened with Hendrickson, his magic by default couldn't scratch Fraudrin, even if he put his life force into it it wouldn't work, but if he put his life force into purge it would've.

Melascula was taking the fight seriously, she just made the mistake of choosing the wrong form that she thought would be more effective. She tried using brute force over her magic

Also being the daughter really doesn't matter because even Characters like Mel, Zel, and Esta still had to train to get their power. The databooks even have their greatest desires as achieving victory. Mel trained much more and had a desire to be the strongest, so as a result he outclassed his two brothers who trained less.

Bein a god doesn't give you a boost. Even Zel said that Mel could train to become the DK if he had the time. So realistically, there isn't any genetic boost.

 

[OtakuFreak]

1.5 But that's not the point. Yes it took some effort, but compared to his other attacks only purge would have seemed to worked according to Zaratras. If he put his life force into a regular attack it would not have damaged Fraudrin to that degree, but purge did. Zaratras knew that his regular magic would not work under any circumstances. That's why Fraudrin wasn't worried.

The same situation happened with Hendrickson, his magic by default couldn't scratch Fraudrin, even if he put his life force into it it wouldn't work, but if he put his life force into purge it would've.

Melascula was taking the fight seriously, she just made the mistake of choosing the wrong form that she thought would be more effective. She tried using brute force over her magic

Also being the daughter really doesn't matter because even Characters like Mel, Zel, and Esta still had to train to get their power. The databooks even have their greatest desires as achieving victory. Mel trained much more and had a desire to be the strongest, so as a result he outclassed his two brothers who trained less.

Bein a god doesn't give you a boost. Even Zel said that Mel could train to become the DK if he had the time. So realistically, there isn't any genetic boost.

1.5 Purge is a magic that comes from the Goddesses, so it counts as ''ark'' - the strongest magic and pretty much the only counter to the Demons, hence why his other magical abilities even with his life force wouldn't have affected Fraudrin, because ''Ark'' is obviously a stronger type of magic than anything the humans couild produce. But even with ''ark'' (purge), he needed to sacrifice his life in order to gap the strength between them.

Same reason with Hendrickson.

Still a mistake that might have resulted in her demise.

Being the daughter does have some relevance. It means you have potential to be the strongest and have possibly inherited abilities that are exclusive to you (e.g Let There Be Light is probably something that is exclusive to Elizabeth) - this is something every other Goddess doesn't have, not even someone like the Four Archangels. Its more than a coincidence that the strongest demons in the series are also the sons of the Demon King - they obviously inherited power directly from a God.

 

[kkck]

http://fanfox.net/manga/nanatsu_no_taizai/v26/c208/6.html

Come on. We literally see ludociel and the indura being pushed back by elizabeth's power release there... And is literally the only person there capable of even holding the indura back. Elizabeth as a goddess was ridiculously powerful and even as a mere human has shown things which should require substantial power. elizabeth is the SG' daughter that purified induras, he probably stands closer to demon mark mel than to archangels or other demons....

 

[Arjuna]

Supreme Deity/Demon King - around 1000k (it'd be like Hao Asakura of Shaman King Furyoku lvl by being unreadable on the PL scouter)

Indura (Monspiet + Derriere) - probably 100++k (depends on how far gone an Indura is)

2 pairs of real Wings Elizabeth - 100+k (unknown full power, potential God status)

Ludoshel - 80+k normal (unknown full power)

Sariel + Tarmiel - 65k+ normal (unknown full power)

Mael - whatever Escanor is at during similar times of the day + Archangel tier PL

Chandler - 100+ (full Dragon Mode....power was conveniently cut "more than half"; Indura unknown)

Cusack - similar to Dragon Chandler with his unrevealed true form (Indura unknown).

Zeldoris with DK magic + phase 2 demon mark - 100+k (Indura unknown)

Estarossa + phase 2 mark - around 100k (Indura unknown).

Current Meliodas - 142+k (power kept on increasing since the Escanor fight, unknown full power, Indura unknown, potential God status).

Finally, you could probably add something like a 1.25 multiplier to every Demon at night time (a vampire said something about the night doubling their power but I don't think that 2x is meant to be taken at face value; certainly won't be fair). For example, the Meliodas that fought ex Fairy King & Giant wasn't 56k but 70k, & the 10C Estarossa that stopped Mel wasn't 60k but 75K because Demons get a PL boost at night.

note: POWER LEVEL FLUTUATES for EVERBODY, even a human, depending on what stance they take. When Ban was more focused (1st Arc), his PL immediately increased slightly. The more serious Meliodas got (first arc), the better he fought. He went from struggling with Guila to fighting Hendrickson, Gil & Vivian at the same time, & then fighting Grey Hendrickson. Same thing with Diane (1st arc) getting serious with mothercatastrophe. Same thing with vampire King when he decided to go full power against Escanor to reveal a PL of nearly 5000

Arthur commented that Cussack is on the same level as Zeldris.

So around 61k.Give or take 1000.